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War Cabinet with a
mortar attack on Downing Street? | |||||||||
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One night in hackney, you reverted me too quickly, I was just about to do it myself! I would query whether it's the whole cabinet, as the war cabinet is usually a smaller group, isn't it? Bigger digger ( talk) 13:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Someone seems to have claimed this review before I could get to it, but if you're interested I do have some pointers. On the whole this is a very good article: well sourced and well written, congratulations.
Otherwise a very nice short article on the incident, good work. I've missed your input on these articles, which brings a sense of sanity to a heated area of the encyclopedia.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 12:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Good points above from Jackyd101, who is welcome to join in with the review. I have put the review on hold until the end of May to allow further development of the article and to judge stability, especially given that there is a spat already and the article is only a few days old. SilkTork * YES! 09:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
The third shell exploded in the rear garden of 10 Downing Street, 300 yards (300 m) from the office where the cabinet were meeting, almost killing the entire cabinet.
I think they could have been standing in the open; if 20kg of semtex went off *three hundred meters away* they would have been utterly untouched. I am not an explosives expert, but I have read military history for twenty-five years and so I think I have a good rough idea of the realistic danger ranges for explosives. It is *possible* to be injured at this range, of course - anything can happen with metal splinters hitting someone in the skull - but "almost killing the entire cabinet" is IMO materially misleading. Toby Douglass ( talk) 13:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Starting review. SilkTork * YES! 15:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
A good article is— </noinclude>
This is a new to mainspace article, only two days old, so stability is difficult to establish, but there was a revert in the first day. I'd like to see this in mainspace for at least 14 days to see what unfolds before deciding on the GA status.
The article is short. Short articles are acceptable for GA, but they have a slightly higher demand on them to be broad in coverage as there is an unconscious expectation in some reader's minds that short equals lite or incomplete. The article has the three main sections one would expect - before, during and after, though there are aspects that a reader might expect that are missing: the Reaction section has 2 statements from the IRA, a large quote from the Police Anti-Terrorist Branch which seems more fitting in The attack section, as it describes an expert's view on the mechanics of the attack. There are the views of the politic leader's of the day. And there is a suggestion of the reaction of the Irish rebels. But there is nothing of the reaction of the British public, nor the general Irish public. There is no information about how security was stepped up in Downing Street after the attack. In the section on The attack, there is no mention of the police sealing off the area. There is no mention of the weather conditions which was speculated at the time possibly prevented the deaths of tourists who might have normally have been in the area. The is no mention anywhere of the police investigation into the attack. There is no mention that the key IRA personal returned to Ireland before the attack.
The writing is clear and the article is neutral, though it could be said that the selection of material and quotes in The reaction section is slightly weighed to give a favourable impression of the IRA's role. This could be solved by moving the quote on the mechanics to The Attack section, and by including a wider range of responses.
Cites appear to be reliable and support what has been said, though I haven't checked them all.
Putting on hold until the end of May to allow discussion of points raised about broad coverage generally and balance in Reaction section; and to judge stability. SilkTork * YES! 09:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Once preparations were complete the two IRA members returned to Ireland, as the IRA leadership considered them to be valuable personnel and did not wish to risk them being arrested in any follow-up operation by the security services.
In light of Hackney's comments above, it would be appropriate for Jackyd101 to take over reviewing this in order to avoid drama. I will withdraw my name on Wikipedia:Good article nominations, and Jackyd101 can then formally take over. SilkTork * YES! 09:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I have raised the problem with the article at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations in an effort to gain some additional opinions into the impasse that has developed above. To summarise the issue, I (the reviewer) believe that the article (which is otherwise excellent) cannot pass GA with the phrase "almost killing the entire cabinet" as it stands. I have made my point above, backed up more eloquently by Bigger digger, that something that "almost" happens is inevitably a matter of opinion, in this case journalist Peter Taylor to whom the sentence is sourced. It is therefore wrong to present this as an irrefutable fact and the sentence should be changed to indicate in the article text whose opinion it is. The main editor has flatly refused to change the sentence and has stated that "If you insist on that change then please fail this nomination, as I would rather have a B class article I am happy with than a good article I am unhappy with." I am reluctant to fail an article that is so good in so many other areas over something so relatively minor, but neither am I happy passing the article with the sentence as it stands. I therefore am seeking additional input before proceeding and am happy to abide by whatever consensus develops.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 23:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
There you go.
They are in the article. -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you 2 lines of K for the quote above, "The IRA had almost succeeded in wiping out the Prime Minister and his entire Cabinet. I stood in the garden of Number Ten with Peter Gurney as he pointed out the geography and explained how lucky the Cabinet had been to survive" this being an obvious fact. Unless of course editors have an alternate-source to verify that it would not have killed every member of the Cabinet. Bigger digger you have not provided any alternative sources which challage this, and suggesting RFC and re-nominate is just forum shopping. So apart from yourself, do you have any Verifiable and reliable, third-party, published sources which challange this information? If not this discussion is pointless. Thanks again 2 lines of K. -- Domer48 'fenian' 17:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Agree. Per my post above. -- Domer48 'fenian' 09:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Jackyd101 please don't! I did not "agree that the quote should be incorporated directly into the article." Bigger digger has said they can't provide verifiable and reliable, third-party, published facts to refute the verifiable and reliable, third-party, published sources. So what is there to discuss? Could you please strike through your comments, thanks -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Jackyd101 for removing that. Jackyd101 you say "[2 lines of K] You are the only person resisting this change" I really don't think they are as two other editors along with myself agree with 2 lines of K, so could you possibly address that comment also? Would you also like to confirm that you were also resisting it? Bigger digger has said they can't provide a verifiable and reliable, third-party, published source to challange the verifiable and reliable, third-party, published sources provided, can you? Thanks again, -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi Jackyd101, could you possibly strike the comment re: "[2loK] You are the only person resisting this change" as its not true, two other editors and myself also disagree with you. Now again, we have a source that is verifiable and a reliable, third-party, published source, which you are challanging. Now are you going to provide a verifiable and reliable, third-party, published source or not. Attribution is something I'm very hard on when sources can be challanged, if you supply a source which contradicts the information, I'll obviously review my position. Thanks again, -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Please Jackyd101, I've answered your question! Could you now extend me the same courtesy, thanks, -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
[GHQ] identified an additional problem: which room would be allocated to Margaret Thatcher? They believed she would be confined to an upper floor where she would have privacy and heavy security. If they could get a bomb into the building, it should be concealed on an upper floor and timed to explode at night, making rescue operations extremely difficult.
(outdent) Bastun could you comment on content and not on the editors in case you have forgot read WP:NPA but you have been told enough times you probably now it verbatim. BigDunc Talk 13:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
(to 2 lines of K) At the time I wrote those lines, neither Vintagekits nor IP/BigDunc had opposed the presence of the quote, and as far as I can see neither has categorically done so even now - certainly no one other than yourself has attempted to give a rationale for avoiding the quote, and yours is virtually incomprehensible. As best as I can make out, you are resisting the insertion of the quote because you think the prose used in that quote is unencyclopedic. That may or may not be the case, but what is certainly unencyclopedic (and sloppy) is presenting what is obviously an opinion (again, something that "almost" happens is by its very nature an opinion) as a fact, as the article currently does. I would certainly agree that my proposed insertion could use some polishing: notice how when I suggested it I said "changing the sentence to something like", which you might have noticed (had you read my suggestion carefully before becoming upset) clearly indicates that it was an example, not a demand.
In response to your rationale for the ridiculous assertion that I'm somehow motivated by partisan attachments, I don't think I have mentioned the Brighton bombing at all in my replies here, (I certainly haven't suggested anywhere that it be incorporated into the article or used in support of material in the article, which is where a problem with OR would develop) and the only time I mentioned Bastun was to indicate that there is a consensus building up that supports removing the unqualified opinion and replacing it with an attributed quote (in whatever form). Therefore I don't really see how he and I are conflated (Although I mean no disrepect to him, he certainly has not been abusive or unpleasant in the way you have). You seem to have taken my suggestions for the article very personally, and your willingness to resort to insults and unfounded accusations indicates that seem to be struggling with the principle of WP:OWN. Perhaps a break would do you good, give you a chance to calm down? The article will still be here when you get back.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 14:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Bastun please comment on content, not on the contributor, I have not commented on you or your motivation. Please show me the same respect.-- Domer48 'fenian' 18:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It would be nice if we could all keep our comments on the article and not on the editors, if only to keep this discussion to a sensible size. Thanks! It is a straw man argument to discuss refuting one WP:verifiable opinion with another. The discussion is that to suggest Taylor's opinion as fact is not suitable, and this has not been addressed in the preceding debate. Fortunately, I have finally found the piece of policy that this discussion has needed: please see WP:ASF, part of WP:NPOV. Bigger digger ( talk) 22:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It's another diversion to find fault with Jackyd's proposed quotation. There are better ways of phrasing it, but that is not the crux of the matter. The point is that it is an opinion and should not be used as a fact. Please read WP:ASF and then illustrate how that policy supports the use of an opinion as fact. Bigger digger ( talk) 22:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
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Anticipating some readers may want to know what happened after, I have added detail (copied over from the 10 Downing Street article the immediate effect on No 10, repairs made, PM's decamping to Admiralty House, and security improvements. Readers may also be wondering if the perpetrators were found - did police enquries draw a blank or is the case still open for investigation? Cloptonson ( talk) 14:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the
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Downing Street mortar attack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | Downing Street mortar attack was a Warfare good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
May 23, 2009. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that in 1991 the
IRA attempted to assassinate
John Major and his
War Cabinet with a
mortar attack on Downing Street? | |||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on February 7, 2021. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
One night in hackney, you reverted me too quickly, I was just about to do it myself! I would query whether it's the whole cabinet, as the war cabinet is usually a smaller group, isn't it? Bigger digger ( talk) 13:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Someone seems to have claimed this review before I could get to it, but if you're interested I do have some pointers. On the whole this is a very good article: well sourced and well written, congratulations.
Otherwise a very nice short article on the incident, good work. I've missed your input on these articles, which brings a sense of sanity to a heated area of the encyclopedia.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 12:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Good points above from Jackyd101, who is welcome to join in with the review. I have put the review on hold until the end of May to allow further development of the article and to judge stability, especially given that there is a spat already and the article is only a few days old. SilkTork * YES! 09:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
The third shell exploded in the rear garden of 10 Downing Street, 300 yards (300 m) from the office where the cabinet were meeting, almost killing the entire cabinet.
I think they could have been standing in the open; if 20kg of semtex went off *three hundred meters away* they would have been utterly untouched. I am not an explosives expert, but I have read military history for twenty-five years and so I think I have a good rough idea of the realistic danger ranges for explosives. It is *possible* to be injured at this range, of course - anything can happen with metal splinters hitting someone in the skull - but "almost killing the entire cabinet" is IMO materially misleading. Toby Douglass ( talk) 13:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Starting review. SilkTork * YES! 15:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
A good article is— </noinclude>
This is a new to mainspace article, only two days old, so stability is difficult to establish, but there was a revert in the first day. I'd like to see this in mainspace for at least 14 days to see what unfolds before deciding on the GA status.
The article is short. Short articles are acceptable for GA, but they have a slightly higher demand on them to be broad in coverage as there is an unconscious expectation in some reader's minds that short equals lite or incomplete. The article has the three main sections one would expect - before, during and after, though there are aspects that a reader might expect that are missing: the Reaction section has 2 statements from the IRA, a large quote from the Police Anti-Terrorist Branch which seems more fitting in The attack section, as it describes an expert's view on the mechanics of the attack. There are the views of the politic leader's of the day. And there is a suggestion of the reaction of the Irish rebels. But there is nothing of the reaction of the British public, nor the general Irish public. There is no information about how security was stepped up in Downing Street after the attack. In the section on The attack, there is no mention of the police sealing off the area. There is no mention of the weather conditions which was speculated at the time possibly prevented the deaths of tourists who might have normally have been in the area. The is no mention anywhere of the police investigation into the attack. There is no mention that the key IRA personal returned to Ireland before the attack.
The writing is clear and the article is neutral, though it could be said that the selection of material and quotes in The reaction section is slightly weighed to give a favourable impression of the IRA's role. This could be solved by moving the quote on the mechanics to The Attack section, and by including a wider range of responses.
Cites appear to be reliable and support what has been said, though I haven't checked them all.
Putting on hold until the end of May to allow discussion of points raised about broad coverage generally and balance in Reaction section; and to judge stability. SilkTork * YES! 09:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Once preparations were complete the two IRA members returned to Ireland, as the IRA leadership considered them to be valuable personnel and did not wish to risk them being arrested in any follow-up operation by the security services.
In light of Hackney's comments above, it would be appropriate for Jackyd101 to take over reviewing this in order to avoid drama. I will withdraw my name on Wikipedia:Good article nominations, and Jackyd101 can then formally take over. SilkTork * YES! 09:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I have raised the problem with the article at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations in an effort to gain some additional opinions into the impasse that has developed above. To summarise the issue, I (the reviewer) believe that the article (which is otherwise excellent) cannot pass GA with the phrase "almost killing the entire cabinet" as it stands. I have made my point above, backed up more eloquently by Bigger digger, that something that "almost" happens is inevitably a matter of opinion, in this case journalist Peter Taylor to whom the sentence is sourced. It is therefore wrong to present this as an irrefutable fact and the sentence should be changed to indicate in the article text whose opinion it is. The main editor has flatly refused to change the sentence and has stated that "If you insist on that change then please fail this nomination, as I would rather have a B class article I am happy with than a good article I am unhappy with." I am reluctant to fail an article that is so good in so many other areas over something so relatively minor, but neither am I happy passing the article with the sentence as it stands. I therefore am seeking additional input before proceeding and am happy to abide by whatever consensus develops.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 23:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
There you go.
They are in the article. -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you 2 lines of K for the quote above, "The IRA had almost succeeded in wiping out the Prime Minister and his entire Cabinet. I stood in the garden of Number Ten with Peter Gurney as he pointed out the geography and explained how lucky the Cabinet had been to survive" this being an obvious fact. Unless of course editors have an alternate-source to verify that it would not have killed every member of the Cabinet. Bigger digger you have not provided any alternative sources which challage this, and suggesting RFC and re-nominate is just forum shopping. So apart from yourself, do you have any Verifiable and reliable, third-party, published sources which challange this information? If not this discussion is pointless. Thanks again 2 lines of K. -- Domer48 'fenian' 17:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Agree. Per my post above. -- Domer48 'fenian' 09:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Jackyd101 please don't! I did not "agree that the quote should be incorporated directly into the article." Bigger digger has said they can't provide verifiable and reliable, third-party, published facts to refute the verifiable and reliable, third-party, published sources. So what is there to discuss? Could you please strike through your comments, thanks -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Jackyd101 for removing that. Jackyd101 you say "[2 lines of K] You are the only person resisting this change" I really don't think they are as two other editors along with myself agree with 2 lines of K, so could you possibly address that comment also? Would you also like to confirm that you were also resisting it? Bigger digger has said they can't provide a verifiable and reliable, third-party, published source to challange the verifiable and reliable, third-party, published sources provided, can you? Thanks again, -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi Jackyd101, could you possibly strike the comment re: "[2loK] You are the only person resisting this change" as its not true, two other editors and myself also disagree with you. Now again, we have a source that is verifiable and a reliable, third-party, published source, which you are challanging. Now are you going to provide a verifiable and reliable, third-party, published source or not. Attribution is something I'm very hard on when sources can be challanged, if you supply a source which contradicts the information, I'll obviously review my position. Thanks again, -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Please Jackyd101, I've answered your question! Could you now extend me the same courtesy, thanks, -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
[GHQ] identified an additional problem: which room would be allocated to Margaret Thatcher? They believed she would be confined to an upper floor where she would have privacy and heavy security. If they could get a bomb into the building, it should be concealed on an upper floor and timed to explode at night, making rescue operations extremely difficult.
(outdent) Bastun could you comment on content and not on the editors in case you have forgot read WP:NPA but you have been told enough times you probably now it verbatim. BigDunc Talk 13:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
(to 2 lines of K) At the time I wrote those lines, neither Vintagekits nor IP/BigDunc had opposed the presence of the quote, and as far as I can see neither has categorically done so even now - certainly no one other than yourself has attempted to give a rationale for avoiding the quote, and yours is virtually incomprehensible. As best as I can make out, you are resisting the insertion of the quote because you think the prose used in that quote is unencyclopedic. That may or may not be the case, but what is certainly unencyclopedic (and sloppy) is presenting what is obviously an opinion (again, something that "almost" happens is by its very nature an opinion) as a fact, as the article currently does. I would certainly agree that my proposed insertion could use some polishing: notice how when I suggested it I said "changing the sentence to something like", which you might have noticed (had you read my suggestion carefully before becoming upset) clearly indicates that it was an example, not a demand.
In response to your rationale for the ridiculous assertion that I'm somehow motivated by partisan attachments, I don't think I have mentioned the Brighton bombing at all in my replies here, (I certainly haven't suggested anywhere that it be incorporated into the article or used in support of material in the article, which is where a problem with OR would develop) and the only time I mentioned Bastun was to indicate that there is a consensus building up that supports removing the unqualified opinion and replacing it with an attributed quote (in whatever form). Therefore I don't really see how he and I are conflated (Although I mean no disrepect to him, he certainly has not been abusive or unpleasant in the way you have). You seem to have taken my suggestions for the article very personally, and your willingness to resort to insults and unfounded accusations indicates that seem to be struggling with the principle of WP:OWN. Perhaps a break would do you good, give you a chance to calm down? The article will still be here when you get back.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 14:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Bastun please comment on content, not on the contributor, I have not commented on you or your motivation. Please show me the same respect.-- Domer48 'fenian' 18:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It would be nice if we could all keep our comments on the article and not on the editors, if only to keep this discussion to a sensible size. Thanks! It is a straw man argument to discuss refuting one WP:verifiable opinion with another. The discussion is that to suggest Taylor's opinion as fact is not suitable, and this has not been addressed in the preceding debate. Fortunately, I have finally found the piece of policy that this discussion has needed: please see WP:ASF, part of WP:NPOV. Bigger digger ( talk) 22:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It's another diversion to find fault with Jackyd's proposed quotation. There are better ways of phrasing it, but that is not the crux of the matter. The point is that it is an opinion and should not be used as a fact. Please read WP:ASF and then illustrate how that policy supports the use of an opinion as fact. Bigger digger ( talk) 22:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Downing Street mortar attack. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:48, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Anticipating some readers may want to know what happened after, I have added detail (copied over from the 10 Downing Street article the immediate effect on No 10, repairs made, PM's decamping to Admiralty House, and security improvements. Readers may also be wondering if the perpetrators were found - did police enquries draw a blank or is the case still open for investigation? Cloptonson ( talk) 14:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)