This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
As far as I can see this addition to the biography of a living person breaks the rules on Neutral point of view and Verifiability and No original research. I intend to remove. Any complaints? Almost- instinct 20:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I've made a few changes, all explained in edit summaries, mainly to keep the tone completely neutral and avoid going into the controversies. If people want to know more they can read the book. I tagged as dubious the statement that he was the youngest biographer ever. 21 is young to publish a biog, true, but WP takes a world-wide view. Who's to say that there wasn't a younger biographer in 19th century Panama? Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed this: "and more recently the British National Party has described Murray as the "brilliant young director" of the Centre for Social Cohesion" and it's ref - Tories Accused of ‘Secretly Admiring Islam’ by Leading Daily Telegraph Writer - on the grounds that the article says quite clearly that these words were made by the Daily Telegraph journalist it was discussing". almost- instinct 03:24, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Since the only references I've been able to find so far to this institution[?] are in Murray's self-supplied biogs (eg page 7 of this) I don't think it's sufficiently notable to be included. Are there any non-web sources for this? almost- instinct 10:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The following I took off the page
In 2007 he co-authored 'Towards a Grand Strategy for an Uncertain World' with Gen. Dr. Klaus Naumann, Gen. John Shalikashvili, Field Marshal The Lord Inge, Adm. Jacques Lanxade, Gen. Henk van den Breemen and Benjamin Bilski, in which they considered the complexity of emerging global security challenges, and the capabilities of existing institutions to address them.
In 2008 he co-authored the Centre for Social Cohesion report, 'Victims of Intimidation: Freedom of Speech within Europe's Muslim Communities', with Johan Pieter Verwey. The report told the stories of nearly 30 Europeans of Muslim background - some believing Muslims and others not - who have been threatened by Muslim extremists. Based on interviews with many of these individuals, the report details the substantial threats and violence they have faced as a result of critical inquiry into aspects of their faith or lifestyle.
Please don't put back there without proper refs, thank you almost- instinct 20:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
This article seems to have grown considerably over the last few months. He's obviously a notable figure, he works quite hard to be so - but I really don't think we need a rundown of his 18 months of writing articles for Standpoint or a list of his memberships of unnotable right-wing groups. He is to politics what Peaches Geldof is to music.-- 193.36.79.206 ( talk) 15:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Not well enough sourced blog piece which casually alludes to his known homosexuality and makes the beginnings of a case for notability. I'm not suggesting that this blog piece is enough to start adding info to the page itself - but you are way off base suggesting he has never made pronouncements about sexuality. I've seen a video online where he talks about how he would be persecuted in Iran, maybe I can dig it up. Douglas Murray has also written for Attitude magazine - see here and states his particular interest in 'gay equality' in this video - Clip from Hardtalk interview. As I say, none of this is edit-ready as it stands but Douglas Murray is openly gay.-- Maloot ( talk) 22:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, where is the discussion that was here a couple of days ago. Deletion tactics eh? Am I alone in thinking that this article, on Mr Murray, is either selfwritten or by a close aide of some description? Brendandh ( talk) 21:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Nobody had written on this page since 26th April so it's unclear what you are talking about? -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 07:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Whoever is removing sourced information relating to the planned debate please justify your edits here before reverting again. Apart from your failure to capitalise Douglas Murray, you are removing information that is sourced and replacing it with incorrect information. The assertion that Murray did not turn up to the debate is incorrect- as the source states (as does this- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1193869/Muslim-clashes-segregation-men-women-forces-cancellation-meeting.html). This also renders your assertion that he had planned not to attend false. In light of this, I am left wondering what the intent of your edit is. Ninahexan ( talk) 01:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I've had a go a restructuring the sections, they appear to be more logical now. I also removed sections that seemed non-important or even trivial (e.g. about Irish jokes). Jprw ( talk) 05:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Quite a few CPOV issues here - one I've amended is to describe anybody as "the Award Winning...". It's not suitable for Wiki - most people have won awards of some description. They should be described according to their profession, with any awards won being described factually. 86.23.4.245 ( talk) 21:43, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment on being "Britain's only Neo-con" is rather silly and tabloid - it comes a few words after a description of him as a Neocon, and doesn't add anything. Marty jar ( talk) 22:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
There were many issues with the heading "Criticism of Islamic figures" - amongst them that Malcolm Grant is not muslim; the 2 muslim 'figures' cited weren't senior within the religion; and that it suggested Murray was against all muslims, while citing examples of him being against Al Qaeda and Hezbollah.
"Critism of Islamic Extremism" is also not a great heading, but the three cases cited are rathe —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marty jar ( talk • contribs) 13:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
On Young Voters' Question Time Douglas Murray stated that he "went to state school, got a scholarship to Eton and then a Scholarship to Oxford" Viewable at 3:20 from here He mentioned this in retaliation to the host hinting at him for being overly privileged. For the neutrality of the article and to present a fair picture of the subject I believe this should be mentioned, as it currently states that he went to two fee paying schools then to Oxford. I cannot find a source detailing his claims other than the Youtube clip.
[1] Came across this re: Eton (now in article) but nothing has turned up re: a scholarship to Oxford. Jprw ( talk) 09:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Murray's anti-Irish sentiments are well known and the Irish jokes incident is in indicator of how that man thinks. I've restored the section on his attempts to popularise and defend Irish jokes. Donoreavenue ( talk) 19:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! OK, now I have a question for Jprw. I just checked, and you reverted [2] the following, written by Donoreavenue:
"Encouraging Irish Jokes: Under the headline "Anyone know any Irishman jokes?" Murray wrote a column querying a council having "to pay thousands of pounds in compensation" to a union official who had been told an Irish joke by a Conservative councillor, writing "you can reflect on the ramifications for the taxpayer of a society that decides it needs officials to arbitrate on jokes". The result was that over 70 Irish jokes appeared on the blog. The Federation of Irish Societies (an organisation that represents Irish clubs and societies in Britain) lodged a formal complaint about the blog to the Press Complaints Commission."
Jprw, please explain why you wrote above "Murray at no stage denigrated Irish people, the alleged offending remarks were made in readers' comments to his blog" and "Please try to understand that these allegations are spurious and false. Allegedly insulting remarks were made in readers' comments to a blog entry Murray wrote." when the passage you deleted made it clear that Murray encouraged the jokes instead of making them. You led me to believe that Donoreavenue was attributing remarks made by readers to Murray (which of course would not be allowed) but now that I have checked I discovered that your statement was not an accurate depiction of what Donoreavenue actually wrote.
So, let's start fresh. Please explain what about the above passage makes it unsuitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Remember, I am an uninvolved editor who is looking at this because it appears that an outside opinion is needed, so I don't know the history of this dispute (Nor do I care. I want to focus on the deletion of the passage I just quoted -- on what grounds did you delete it?) -- Guy Macon ( talk) 12:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
If you think it should be in another section, please suggest one.
You seem to be not understanding my question. "Because he didn't" is not a proper response to the question "why did you previously say he didn't when nobody claimed that he did?" Please re-read the question slowly, think about your answer instead of just dashing it off, and address the specific questions asked.
Re: your assertion that this is an extremely minor episode in the context of Murray’s career, the fact that the Federation of Irish Societies lodged a formal complaint about the blog to the Press Complaints Commission appears to make it notable enough to be included in Wikipedia.
I do not appreciate your putting “uninvolved editor” is quotes as if somehow my neutrality is in question. If you imagine that I care or even know about some random British writer / commentator, you are mistaken. I was asked to come here and offer an outside opinion and that is what I am doing. You might have noticed that I started by questioning Donoreavenue about what appeared to be him violating Wikipedia policy. He calmly and rationally explained why he thought that my question was based upon a a mischaracterization of his position by you, and I agreed. You really need to slow down, carefully review your responses, and edit them so that they are [A] responsive to the question asked, [B] Calm, cool and rational, and [C] based upon Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I have not come to a conclusion about the underlying dispute, and I don't want to reach the wrong conclusion just because you aren't being calm and logical. More light and less heat, please. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Putting your lofty and patronising tone to one side, the issue boils down to three things. 1) The article is about political correctness, not encouraging Irish jokes; 2) The title of Murray’s article (the so-called invitation to denigrate Irish people, as interpreted by Donoreavenue) is rhetorical; 3) The objections raised by the press commission were based on readers’ comments to the article: you cannot use these as a stick to beat Murray, unless you have a POV against him.
And this is an extremely minor episode in his career that has been blown out of all proportion; it should not be included anywhere in the article, let alone given its own section. I was hoping that common sense would prevail, but no; editor Donoreavenue, who if you would bother to check is a SPA to uphold extreme positions related to Irish issues and who accuses anyone who disagrees with him of "censorship", is being allowed to malign Murray unchecked. Jprw ( talk) 12:50, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Re: "You again threatened a block [because of WP:LEGAL]; please retract", If you say you had no intention of making a legal threat and that I misinterpreted you, I believe you ( WP:AGF) and retract my statement. It would be nice if you believed me when I wrote that I had no intention of threatening a block over indentation and that you misinterpreted me. I will not respond to further accusations about that. See WP:IAD.
Re: Civility, no. "The other fellow was uncivil so I am allowed to be uncivil in return" is not an allowable excuse. You need to be civil no matter what others do. If you feel that others are being uncivil, politely ask them to stop and bring it to WP:WQA if they don't.
I asked you to please stop talking about other editors and to focus on the article. In your reply you devoted 75% to talking about other editors and 25% to talking about the article. Starting now I am going to simply ignore any comments you make about other editors.
Re: inclusion of the material. Please re-read what I wrote before starting with "I see you making three arguments about article content." everything that comes after that is in the context of those three arguments you made and why they are invalid.
Yes, it really is true that we report criticism that is sourced and notable without evaluating whether it is true. You say you have been editing Wikipedia for five years. Are you really unfamiliar with the basic concept of Verifiability, and not Truth? You keep invoking WP:BLP. Are you really unfamiliar with WP:BLPREMOVE?
All I am doing is telling you what WP:BLPREMOVE says about the acceptable grounds for removal of content. Is the material you want to remove unsourced or poorly sourced? No. It is not. Is it a conjectural interpretation of a source? No again. Is it a self-published source not written by the subject of the BLP? Not even close. Does it fail in some other way to meet Verifiability standards? Nope. Thus you have no grounds for removal. Q.E.D. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:55, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I really do not want to get bogged down in pettiness and or to go around in vindictively motivated circles, but it would have been nice if you had acknowledged that the first charge re: Indentation was directed at another editor, and not me. That said, you did have the good grace to apologize for another incorrect allegation you made against me, which I appreciate – thank you. There seems to be another glaring inconsistency in the various statements you’ve made. On 9 May you wrote, Donoreavenue, looking at the above I see you being told several times that the allegedly insulting remarks were made in readers' comments to a blog entry Murray wrote, but I don't see you responding to that. Do you agree, or do you claim that they aren't? If the claim is true (I haven't checked) then they have no place on Wikipedia (bold mine). This statement seems to directly contradict something you then wrote on 11 May: It doesn't matter if the criticism blamed Murray for something someone else wrote. Why did you make the original statement on 9 May? Presumably it was in some way motivated by a concern related to a BLP violation? The idea that WP can see fit to hold Murray responsible for statements made by other individuals seems to me to be a shocking position to take, and you originally seemed to share this concern. So I would repeat that WP should not be touching material of this kind. Also to repeat, in the context of Murray’s career this really is a trivial episode, so if it is to be included, it should be as a footnote somewhere and not under an entire section with the ludicrously (almost comically) misleading and inaccurate heading “Encouraging Irish Jokes”. Regards, Jprw ( talk) 06:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I have added the incident in which Murray was nearly ambushed by a mob before a debate in 2009. This is a noteworthy incident and more deserving of an appearance of Murray's Wikipedia page than some of the content here. Michael Heseltin ( talk) 16:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
This section was previously titled 'Views on Islamic fundamentalism', but I changed it as it's clear his criticisms are not of a specific branch of Islam but of Islam in general. See e.g. this speech he gave [3], which identifies Muslims in general as the problem, and contains such quotes as 'All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop' and 'Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board'. Robofish ( talk) 20:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Murray is listed as Hebridean, as well as English of Scottish descent. However, nowhere in the article is his place of birth listed. Thegreatelgrande ( talk) 14:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Currently, this article is in the categories 'LGBT journalists' and 'LGBT writers from Scotland'. However, there is nothing in the text of the article itself to indicate that Murray self-identifies as LGBT. Can anyone provide a source for that? If not, these categories should be removed as BLP violations. Robofish ( talk) 15:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Douglas Murray (author). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:02, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
This book has disappeared, anyone know anything? Alan Simon Thomas ( talk) 03:48, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Douglas Murray (author). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
This section does not give/quote most of the criticisms of Murray made on Conservative Home, but gives/quotes all of his defences, the effect is very unbalanced. Conservative Home is accusing Murray of substantial misrepresentation of its disagreement with him and of holding much stronger - and quite unworkable - views than those we quote (destroying mosques, repatriating the children or grandchildren of immigrants if they 'condone violence' against any 'Western' country or its troops anywhere in the world).
Our ref to the archived copy of the social affairs original 'Dutch' speech, is 'dead' (it contains no text, just the social affairs unit logo), other links, such as the one on Conservative Home, have the same problem, ie one cannot view the original speech, I found this, but the source is almost certainly not RS for use in the article. Pincrete ( talk) 07:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Murray is a staunch Zionist and examples of his views on the supremacy of Israel can be found in the Spectator. Maybe there ought to be a section on this, Right-wing Gay Zionism?-- Wool Bridge ( talk) 17:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in this AfD discussion about whether to delete Intellectual Dark Web. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 22:10, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I just noticed the section on Irish jokes here and the lengthy discussion about its validity on the talk page. I suggest this section be removed altogether, unless this page is planning to detail the many opinions that Murray expresses on a regular basis. The inclusion itself seems like a fairly primitive and biased attempt to paint Murray in a poor light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.201.234 ( talk) 16:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I have undone this pure vandalism. Donoreavenue ( talk) 22:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
It strikes me that people are looking to remove this section for political reasons. I have yet again restored it. Donoreavenue ( talk) 13:01, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
We've been down this road several times before Jprw. You tried to delete this section on several occasions and you no doubt remember that intervention from other Wikipedia editors was necessary before you stopped reverting the edits. Why indeed are you concerned about supposed "antipathy" towards Murray? I agreed last year that the section could be a subsection under a controversy section. Donoreavenue ( talk) 16:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I have now combined the views on Islam and the Irish Jokes section into one section. These sections are in my opinion significant enough to warrant inclusion in a bio piece. Donoreavenue ( talk) 16:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor, and user Jandrewc, have recently altered the article's language, so that rather than stating that Murray is a critic of Islam, it states that he is a critic of "Islamism". Jandrewc stated, "Language misrepresents as an opinion writer when Murray is a reporter on Islamism, not a critic of Islam". My response is simple: prove it. Provide evidence that your change is correct, and that Murray does criticize only "Islamism" and not Islam. I do not believe that you can prove any such thing, Jandrewc, so it appears to be you who is guilty of misrepresentation. Let me give three relevant quotes from the article. It states that Murray regards "Islamophobia" as a "nonsense term", as "there are a considerable number of reasons to be fearful of some—though certainly not all—aspects and versions of Islam". Again, it states "In February 2006, Murray expressed his views on Islam and Muslims in Europe, in his talk delivered to the Pim Fortuyn Memorial Conference in the Hague, Netherlands". Another quote: "In 2010, Murray argued against the motion in an Intelligence Squared US debate titled "Is Islam a Religion of Peace?"." In all of those cases, Murray is obviously criticizing Islam, and not simply "Islamism". FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 07:07, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
An IP editor, and user FreeKnowledgeCreator, has recently rejected a correction to the article regarding Douglas Murray, which has a lengthy section entitled "Views on Islam," which erroneously implies that Murray is an opinion author and not a journalist. I have recommended an update of "Views on Islam" to "Reporting on Islamism" to more accurately reflect both Murray's role in reporting the facts regarding Islamism rather than Islam writ large. If you read carefully, the quotes you refer to demonstrate quite the opposite of the position you have put forward. First, Murray's quote that "there are a considerable number of reasons to be fearful of *some*—***though certainly not all***—aspects and versions of Islam." Unless all Muslims are Islamists, it follows logically that Murray is not criticizing the religion as a whole, only "aspects and versions of Islam" for which there is reason to be fearful, such as political terrorists and their backers. He makes this point throughout his presentations and I can provide several additional citations if needed. Second, Murray has stated repeatedly that his statement to the Dutch Parliament were inarticulate and that he does not hold those views. The rest of that paragraph describes the lengths to which Murray has retracted and repudiated this remark. Post left unsigned by Jandrewc
The lead says "He is often critical of Islamism and ..." the link is to "Criticism of Islam". There are a number of Q.s. Firstly is there anyone who is not critical of militant, violent Islamism? Secondly, while true, is that the best summary of why Murray is notable and controversial? Thirdly, is the link apt since it conflates Islamism and Islam? Pincrete ( talk) 18:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I have translated the article to Dutch, so I was very interested in this quote from the English article: "His comments about Islamic extremism in the Netherlands mean that he has to have a police guard when travelling there."
It would be relevant for my translation, but I could not find a confirmation of this fact. Neither in the reference provided, nor when I tried to search for it on line. (In Dutch and in English.) If there is a reliable source that can confirm it, I would be eager to copy this, since it has to do with Douglas Murray in the country of the wikipedia I am translating to. For now I leave it out of the translation, and I added a request to give a reference. AntonHogervorst ( talk) 16:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I've noticed that while Douglas Murray's page has had his birth date listed previously, it's no longer present here. I assume it was removed from his page as there wasn't a source to back it up. I can't seem to find a reliable source for his birth date either, although Google tells me it is 16 July 1979. Is anyone able to confirm this? Joelson98 ( talk) 20:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
This talk page needs an archive. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 00:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
This guy is not a journalist. He's a columnist. He writes opinion editorials, he doesn't report, so it would mislead most readers who tie "journalism" to reporting. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 00:43, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
I have locked the page for two days to stop the edit warring over the lead, which has been going on for days now. Use these two days to actually come to the talk page (as you keep telling other people to do) and lay out your justification for your edits: sources supporting your version, and evidence that what you want to say is also stated and supported in the article text. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
There is a massive number of SPA accounts that all have in common that they are adding obscure self-sourced (or personal unsourced) content about Murray, and edit-warring this content in. It's hard not to deduce that these are COI accounts, with an affiliation to Murray. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 13:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
As this article currently stands, its section on The Strange Death of Europe describes Murray as claiming that Pegida and the EDL "had a point" and that Viktor Orban is a better sentinel of "European values" than George Soros. These claims are derived from a book review in the New York Times by Pankaj Mishra, and do not accord with my own understanding of Murray's views which I gleaned from consulting the primary text in question (his book). Whether Mishra's original review counts as libellous is one matter - the quotes that Mishra provides in his review do not appear in the book itself. This notwithstanding, these claims by Mishra are at best the products of what really is an opinion piece, not a piece of news reportage by the New York Times.
As in WP:NEWSORG: Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.
Mishra's claim, should it be part of the article, should be integrated into Mishra's other views that the book is a "handy digest of far-right clichés". John Mendelsund ( talk) 15:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi all, I am inviting editors to overhaul this article, so it looks more like other articles about similar personalities. I looked around and found the following articles that can be models for what this article should/can look like. I especially focused on the Views sections of these articles, because it seems to me that is the section most in need of immediate clean up, which I am going to begin now.
/info/en/?search=Milo_Yiannopoulos#Political_views
/info/en/?search=Ben_Shapiro#Views
/info/en/?search=Roger_Scruton#Philosophical_and_political_views
/info/en/?search=Bernard_Lewis#Views_and_influence_on_contemporary_politics
/info/en/?search=Bertrand_Russell#Views
Thank you, FairlyFlatFoot ( talk) 11:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Snooganssnoogans:In a section called "Views" it is reasonable to allow quotes or paraphrases from the author's own work to back up the claim of what has been said. Please see the following articles for examples of that: /info/en/?search=Bertrand_Russell#Views; /info/en/?search=Roger_Scruton#Philosophical_and_political_views; /info/en/?search=Milo_Yiannopoulos#Political_views. FairlyFlatFoot ( talk) 12:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
As far as I can see this addition to the biography of a living person breaks the rules on Neutral point of view and Verifiability and No original research. I intend to remove. Any complaints? Almost- instinct 20:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I've made a few changes, all explained in edit summaries, mainly to keep the tone completely neutral and avoid going into the controversies. If people want to know more they can read the book. I tagged as dubious the statement that he was the youngest biographer ever. 21 is young to publish a biog, true, but WP takes a world-wide view. Who's to say that there wasn't a younger biographer in 19th century Panama? Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed this: "and more recently the British National Party has described Murray as the "brilliant young director" of the Centre for Social Cohesion" and it's ref - Tories Accused of ‘Secretly Admiring Islam’ by Leading Daily Telegraph Writer - on the grounds that the article says quite clearly that these words were made by the Daily Telegraph journalist it was discussing". almost- instinct 03:24, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Since the only references I've been able to find so far to this institution[?] are in Murray's self-supplied biogs (eg page 7 of this) I don't think it's sufficiently notable to be included. Are there any non-web sources for this? almost- instinct 10:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The following I took off the page
In 2007 he co-authored 'Towards a Grand Strategy for an Uncertain World' with Gen. Dr. Klaus Naumann, Gen. John Shalikashvili, Field Marshal The Lord Inge, Adm. Jacques Lanxade, Gen. Henk van den Breemen and Benjamin Bilski, in which they considered the complexity of emerging global security challenges, and the capabilities of existing institutions to address them.
In 2008 he co-authored the Centre for Social Cohesion report, 'Victims of Intimidation: Freedom of Speech within Europe's Muslim Communities', with Johan Pieter Verwey. The report told the stories of nearly 30 Europeans of Muslim background - some believing Muslims and others not - who have been threatened by Muslim extremists. Based on interviews with many of these individuals, the report details the substantial threats and violence they have faced as a result of critical inquiry into aspects of their faith or lifestyle.
Please don't put back there without proper refs, thank you almost- instinct 20:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
This article seems to have grown considerably over the last few months. He's obviously a notable figure, he works quite hard to be so - but I really don't think we need a rundown of his 18 months of writing articles for Standpoint or a list of his memberships of unnotable right-wing groups. He is to politics what Peaches Geldof is to music.-- 193.36.79.206 ( talk) 15:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Not well enough sourced blog piece which casually alludes to his known homosexuality and makes the beginnings of a case for notability. I'm not suggesting that this blog piece is enough to start adding info to the page itself - but you are way off base suggesting he has never made pronouncements about sexuality. I've seen a video online where he talks about how he would be persecuted in Iran, maybe I can dig it up. Douglas Murray has also written for Attitude magazine - see here and states his particular interest in 'gay equality' in this video - Clip from Hardtalk interview. As I say, none of this is edit-ready as it stands but Douglas Murray is openly gay.-- Maloot ( talk) 22:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, where is the discussion that was here a couple of days ago. Deletion tactics eh? Am I alone in thinking that this article, on Mr Murray, is either selfwritten or by a close aide of some description? Brendandh ( talk) 21:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Nobody had written on this page since 26th April so it's unclear what you are talking about? -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 07:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Whoever is removing sourced information relating to the planned debate please justify your edits here before reverting again. Apart from your failure to capitalise Douglas Murray, you are removing information that is sourced and replacing it with incorrect information. The assertion that Murray did not turn up to the debate is incorrect- as the source states (as does this- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1193869/Muslim-clashes-segregation-men-women-forces-cancellation-meeting.html). This also renders your assertion that he had planned not to attend false. In light of this, I am left wondering what the intent of your edit is. Ninahexan ( talk) 01:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I've had a go a restructuring the sections, they appear to be more logical now. I also removed sections that seemed non-important or even trivial (e.g. about Irish jokes). Jprw ( talk) 05:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Quite a few CPOV issues here - one I've amended is to describe anybody as "the Award Winning...". It's not suitable for Wiki - most people have won awards of some description. They should be described according to their profession, with any awards won being described factually. 86.23.4.245 ( talk) 21:43, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment on being "Britain's only Neo-con" is rather silly and tabloid - it comes a few words after a description of him as a Neocon, and doesn't add anything. Marty jar ( talk) 22:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
There were many issues with the heading "Criticism of Islamic figures" - amongst them that Malcolm Grant is not muslim; the 2 muslim 'figures' cited weren't senior within the religion; and that it suggested Murray was against all muslims, while citing examples of him being against Al Qaeda and Hezbollah.
"Critism of Islamic Extremism" is also not a great heading, but the three cases cited are rathe —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marty jar ( talk • contribs) 13:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
On Young Voters' Question Time Douglas Murray stated that he "went to state school, got a scholarship to Eton and then a Scholarship to Oxford" Viewable at 3:20 from here He mentioned this in retaliation to the host hinting at him for being overly privileged. For the neutrality of the article and to present a fair picture of the subject I believe this should be mentioned, as it currently states that he went to two fee paying schools then to Oxford. I cannot find a source detailing his claims other than the Youtube clip.
[1] Came across this re: Eton (now in article) but nothing has turned up re: a scholarship to Oxford. Jprw ( talk) 09:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Murray's anti-Irish sentiments are well known and the Irish jokes incident is in indicator of how that man thinks. I've restored the section on his attempts to popularise and defend Irish jokes. Donoreavenue ( talk) 19:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! OK, now I have a question for Jprw. I just checked, and you reverted [2] the following, written by Donoreavenue:
"Encouraging Irish Jokes: Under the headline "Anyone know any Irishman jokes?" Murray wrote a column querying a council having "to pay thousands of pounds in compensation" to a union official who had been told an Irish joke by a Conservative councillor, writing "you can reflect on the ramifications for the taxpayer of a society that decides it needs officials to arbitrate on jokes". The result was that over 70 Irish jokes appeared on the blog. The Federation of Irish Societies (an organisation that represents Irish clubs and societies in Britain) lodged a formal complaint about the blog to the Press Complaints Commission."
Jprw, please explain why you wrote above "Murray at no stage denigrated Irish people, the alleged offending remarks were made in readers' comments to his blog" and "Please try to understand that these allegations are spurious and false. Allegedly insulting remarks were made in readers' comments to a blog entry Murray wrote." when the passage you deleted made it clear that Murray encouraged the jokes instead of making them. You led me to believe that Donoreavenue was attributing remarks made by readers to Murray (which of course would not be allowed) but now that I have checked I discovered that your statement was not an accurate depiction of what Donoreavenue actually wrote.
So, let's start fresh. Please explain what about the above passage makes it unsuitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Remember, I am an uninvolved editor who is looking at this because it appears that an outside opinion is needed, so I don't know the history of this dispute (Nor do I care. I want to focus on the deletion of the passage I just quoted -- on what grounds did you delete it?) -- Guy Macon ( talk) 12:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
If you think it should be in another section, please suggest one.
You seem to be not understanding my question. "Because he didn't" is not a proper response to the question "why did you previously say he didn't when nobody claimed that he did?" Please re-read the question slowly, think about your answer instead of just dashing it off, and address the specific questions asked.
Re: your assertion that this is an extremely minor episode in the context of Murray’s career, the fact that the Federation of Irish Societies lodged a formal complaint about the blog to the Press Complaints Commission appears to make it notable enough to be included in Wikipedia.
I do not appreciate your putting “uninvolved editor” is quotes as if somehow my neutrality is in question. If you imagine that I care or even know about some random British writer / commentator, you are mistaken. I was asked to come here and offer an outside opinion and that is what I am doing. You might have noticed that I started by questioning Donoreavenue about what appeared to be him violating Wikipedia policy. He calmly and rationally explained why he thought that my question was based upon a a mischaracterization of his position by you, and I agreed. You really need to slow down, carefully review your responses, and edit them so that they are [A] responsive to the question asked, [B] Calm, cool and rational, and [C] based upon Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I have not come to a conclusion about the underlying dispute, and I don't want to reach the wrong conclusion just because you aren't being calm and logical. More light and less heat, please. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Putting your lofty and patronising tone to one side, the issue boils down to three things. 1) The article is about political correctness, not encouraging Irish jokes; 2) The title of Murray’s article (the so-called invitation to denigrate Irish people, as interpreted by Donoreavenue) is rhetorical; 3) The objections raised by the press commission were based on readers’ comments to the article: you cannot use these as a stick to beat Murray, unless you have a POV against him.
And this is an extremely minor episode in his career that has been blown out of all proportion; it should not be included anywhere in the article, let alone given its own section. I was hoping that common sense would prevail, but no; editor Donoreavenue, who if you would bother to check is a SPA to uphold extreme positions related to Irish issues and who accuses anyone who disagrees with him of "censorship", is being allowed to malign Murray unchecked. Jprw ( talk) 12:50, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Re: "You again threatened a block [because of WP:LEGAL]; please retract", If you say you had no intention of making a legal threat and that I misinterpreted you, I believe you ( WP:AGF) and retract my statement. It would be nice if you believed me when I wrote that I had no intention of threatening a block over indentation and that you misinterpreted me. I will not respond to further accusations about that. See WP:IAD.
Re: Civility, no. "The other fellow was uncivil so I am allowed to be uncivil in return" is not an allowable excuse. You need to be civil no matter what others do. If you feel that others are being uncivil, politely ask them to stop and bring it to WP:WQA if they don't.
I asked you to please stop talking about other editors and to focus on the article. In your reply you devoted 75% to talking about other editors and 25% to talking about the article. Starting now I am going to simply ignore any comments you make about other editors.
Re: inclusion of the material. Please re-read what I wrote before starting with "I see you making three arguments about article content." everything that comes after that is in the context of those three arguments you made and why they are invalid.
Yes, it really is true that we report criticism that is sourced and notable without evaluating whether it is true. You say you have been editing Wikipedia for five years. Are you really unfamiliar with the basic concept of Verifiability, and not Truth? You keep invoking WP:BLP. Are you really unfamiliar with WP:BLPREMOVE?
All I am doing is telling you what WP:BLPREMOVE says about the acceptable grounds for removal of content. Is the material you want to remove unsourced or poorly sourced? No. It is not. Is it a conjectural interpretation of a source? No again. Is it a self-published source not written by the subject of the BLP? Not even close. Does it fail in some other way to meet Verifiability standards? Nope. Thus you have no grounds for removal. Q.E.D. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:55, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I really do not want to get bogged down in pettiness and or to go around in vindictively motivated circles, but it would have been nice if you had acknowledged that the first charge re: Indentation was directed at another editor, and not me. That said, you did have the good grace to apologize for another incorrect allegation you made against me, which I appreciate – thank you. There seems to be another glaring inconsistency in the various statements you’ve made. On 9 May you wrote, Donoreavenue, looking at the above I see you being told several times that the allegedly insulting remarks were made in readers' comments to a blog entry Murray wrote, but I don't see you responding to that. Do you agree, or do you claim that they aren't? If the claim is true (I haven't checked) then they have no place on Wikipedia (bold mine). This statement seems to directly contradict something you then wrote on 11 May: It doesn't matter if the criticism blamed Murray for something someone else wrote. Why did you make the original statement on 9 May? Presumably it was in some way motivated by a concern related to a BLP violation? The idea that WP can see fit to hold Murray responsible for statements made by other individuals seems to me to be a shocking position to take, and you originally seemed to share this concern. So I would repeat that WP should not be touching material of this kind. Also to repeat, in the context of Murray’s career this really is a trivial episode, so if it is to be included, it should be as a footnote somewhere and not under an entire section with the ludicrously (almost comically) misleading and inaccurate heading “Encouraging Irish Jokes”. Regards, Jprw ( talk) 06:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I have added the incident in which Murray was nearly ambushed by a mob before a debate in 2009. This is a noteworthy incident and more deserving of an appearance of Murray's Wikipedia page than some of the content here. Michael Heseltin ( talk) 16:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
This section was previously titled 'Views on Islamic fundamentalism', but I changed it as it's clear his criticisms are not of a specific branch of Islam but of Islam in general. See e.g. this speech he gave [3], which identifies Muslims in general as the problem, and contains such quotes as 'All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop' and 'Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board'. Robofish ( talk) 20:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Murray is listed as Hebridean, as well as English of Scottish descent. However, nowhere in the article is his place of birth listed. Thegreatelgrande ( talk) 14:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Currently, this article is in the categories 'LGBT journalists' and 'LGBT writers from Scotland'. However, there is nothing in the text of the article itself to indicate that Murray self-identifies as LGBT. Can anyone provide a source for that? If not, these categories should be removed as BLP violations. Robofish ( talk) 15:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Douglas Murray (author). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:02, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
This book has disappeared, anyone know anything? Alan Simon Thomas ( talk) 03:48, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Douglas Murray (author). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
This section does not give/quote most of the criticisms of Murray made on Conservative Home, but gives/quotes all of his defences, the effect is very unbalanced. Conservative Home is accusing Murray of substantial misrepresentation of its disagreement with him and of holding much stronger - and quite unworkable - views than those we quote (destroying mosques, repatriating the children or grandchildren of immigrants if they 'condone violence' against any 'Western' country or its troops anywhere in the world).
Our ref to the archived copy of the social affairs original 'Dutch' speech, is 'dead' (it contains no text, just the social affairs unit logo), other links, such as the one on Conservative Home, have the same problem, ie one cannot view the original speech, I found this, but the source is almost certainly not RS for use in the article. Pincrete ( talk) 07:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Murray is a staunch Zionist and examples of his views on the supremacy of Israel can be found in the Spectator. Maybe there ought to be a section on this, Right-wing Gay Zionism?-- Wool Bridge ( talk) 17:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in this AfD discussion about whether to delete Intellectual Dark Web. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 22:10, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I just noticed the section on Irish jokes here and the lengthy discussion about its validity on the talk page. I suggest this section be removed altogether, unless this page is planning to detail the many opinions that Murray expresses on a regular basis. The inclusion itself seems like a fairly primitive and biased attempt to paint Murray in a poor light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.201.234 ( talk) 16:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I have undone this pure vandalism. Donoreavenue ( talk) 22:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
It strikes me that people are looking to remove this section for political reasons. I have yet again restored it. Donoreavenue ( talk) 13:01, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
We've been down this road several times before Jprw. You tried to delete this section on several occasions and you no doubt remember that intervention from other Wikipedia editors was necessary before you stopped reverting the edits. Why indeed are you concerned about supposed "antipathy" towards Murray? I agreed last year that the section could be a subsection under a controversy section. Donoreavenue ( talk) 16:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I have now combined the views on Islam and the Irish Jokes section into one section. These sections are in my opinion significant enough to warrant inclusion in a bio piece. Donoreavenue ( talk) 16:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor, and user Jandrewc, have recently altered the article's language, so that rather than stating that Murray is a critic of Islam, it states that he is a critic of "Islamism". Jandrewc stated, "Language misrepresents as an opinion writer when Murray is a reporter on Islamism, not a critic of Islam". My response is simple: prove it. Provide evidence that your change is correct, and that Murray does criticize only "Islamism" and not Islam. I do not believe that you can prove any such thing, Jandrewc, so it appears to be you who is guilty of misrepresentation. Let me give three relevant quotes from the article. It states that Murray regards "Islamophobia" as a "nonsense term", as "there are a considerable number of reasons to be fearful of some—though certainly not all—aspects and versions of Islam". Again, it states "In February 2006, Murray expressed his views on Islam and Muslims in Europe, in his talk delivered to the Pim Fortuyn Memorial Conference in the Hague, Netherlands". Another quote: "In 2010, Murray argued against the motion in an Intelligence Squared US debate titled "Is Islam a Religion of Peace?"." In all of those cases, Murray is obviously criticizing Islam, and not simply "Islamism". FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 07:07, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
An IP editor, and user FreeKnowledgeCreator, has recently rejected a correction to the article regarding Douglas Murray, which has a lengthy section entitled "Views on Islam," which erroneously implies that Murray is an opinion author and not a journalist. I have recommended an update of "Views on Islam" to "Reporting on Islamism" to more accurately reflect both Murray's role in reporting the facts regarding Islamism rather than Islam writ large. If you read carefully, the quotes you refer to demonstrate quite the opposite of the position you have put forward. First, Murray's quote that "there are a considerable number of reasons to be fearful of *some*—***though certainly not all***—aspects and versions of Islam." Unless all Muslims are Islamists, it follows logically that Murray is not criticizing the religion as a whole, only "aspects and versions of Islam" for which there is reason to be fearful, such as political terrorists and their backers. He makes this point throughout his presentations and I can provide several additional citations if needed. Second, Murray has stated repeatedly that his statement to the Dutch Parliament were inarticulate and that he does not hold those views. The rest of that paragraph describes the lengths to which Murray has retracted and repudiated this remark. Post left unsigned by Jandrewc
The lead says "He is often critical of Islamism and ..." the link is to "Criticism of Islam". There are a number of Q.s. Firstly is there anyone who is not critical of militant, violent Islamism? Secondly, while true, is that the best summary of why Murray is notable and controversial? Thirdly, is the link apt since it conflates Islamism and Islam? Pincrete ( talk) 18:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I have translated the article to Dutch, so I was very interested in this quote from the English article: "His comments about Islamic extremism in the Netherlands mean that he has to have a police guard when travelling there."
It would be relevant for my translation, but I could not find a confirmation of this fact. Neither in the reference provided, nor when I tried to search for it on line. (In Dutch and in English.) If there is a reliable source that can confirm it, I would be eager to copy this, since it has to do with Douglas Murray in the country of the wikipedia I am translating to. For now I leave it out of the translation, and I added a request to give a reference. AntonHogervorst ( talk) 16:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I've noticed that while Douglas Murray's page has had his birth date listed previously, it's no longer present here. I assume it was removed from his page as there wasn't a source to back it up. I can't seem to find a reliable source for his birth date either, although Google tells me it is 16 July 1979. Is anyone able to confirm this? Joelson98 ( talk) 20:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
This talk page needs an archive. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 00:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
This guy is not a journalist. He's a columnist. He writes opinion editorials, he doesn't report, so it would mislead most readers who tie "journalism" to reporting. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 00:43, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
I have locked the page for two days to stop the edit warring over the lead, which has been going on for days now. Use these two days to actually come to the talk page (as you keep telling other people to do) and lay out your justification for your edits: sources supporting your version, and evidence that what you want to say is also stated and supported in the article text. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
There is a massive number of SPA accounts that all have in common that they are adding obscure self-sourced (or personal unsourced) content about Murray, and edit-warring this content in. It's hard not to deduce that these are COI accounts, with an affiliation to Murray. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 13:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
As this article currently stands, its section on The Strange Death of Europe describes Murray as claiming that Pegida and the EDL "had a point" and that Viktor Orban is a better sentinel of "European values" than George Soros. These claims are derived from a book review in the New York Times by Pankaj Mishra, and do not accord with my own understanding of Murray's views which I gleaned from consulting the primary text in question (his book). Whether Mishra's original review counts as libellous is one matter - the quotes that Mishra provides in his review do not appear in the book itself. This notwithstanding, these claims by Mishra are at best the products of what really is an opinion piece, not a piece of news reportage by the New York Times.
As in WP:NEWSORG: Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.
Mishra's claim, should it be part of the article, should be integrated into Mishra's other views that the book is a "handy digest of far-right clichés". John Mendelsund ( talk) 15:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi all, I am inviting editors to overhaul this article, so it looks more like other articles about similar personalities. I looked around and found the following articles that can be models for what this article should/can look like. I especially focused on the Views sections of these articles, because it seems to me that is the section most in need of immediate clean up, which I am going to begin now.
/info/en/?search=Milo_Yiannopoulos#Political_views
/info/en/?search=Ben_Shapiro#Views
/info/en/?search=Roger_Scruton#Philosophical_and_political_views
/info/en/?search=Bernard_Lewis#Views_and_influence_on_contemporary_politics
/info/en/?search=Bertrand_Russell#Views
Thank you, FairlyFlatFoot ( talk) 11:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Snooganssnoogans:In a section called "Views" it is reasonable to allow quotes or paraphrases from the author's own work to back up the claim of what has been said. Please see the following articles for examples of that: /info/en/?search=Bertrand_Russell#Views; /info/en/?search=Roger_Scruton#Philosophical_and_political_views; /info/en/?search=Milo_Yiannopoulos#Political_views. FairlyFlatFoot ( talk) 12:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)