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Guardian piece. Probably not worth mentioning in the article if this will be the only coverage. -- NeilN talk to me 16:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the fact that it was covered in the three original Guardian article makes it relevant. The Guardian is certainly a reliable source. At the very least there should be a link to the Guardian articles on this page, if not also a link to the article about why those three links are suppressed from search results on Google in the UK.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/oct/29/dougie-mcdonald-sfa-warning-penalty-celtic
Referee at centre of Celtic penalty incident escapes with a warning • Dougie McDonald 'lied' in original statement, concludes report • Official 'full of remorse' after linesman's decision to retire
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/oct/30/dougie-mcdonald-penalty-sfa
Dougie McDonald penalty saga exposes need for SFA transparency Referees' tendency to protect their own is again manifesting itself in the response to the Dundee United-Celtic penalty controversy
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/28/dougie-mdconald-scottish-referee
Dougie McDonald, Scottish referee who lied over reversing penalty quits • 'I apologise for my role in that' • McDonald says more action from referees will follow
Xardox ( talk) 18:01, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
The exclusion from Google European searches, and the Guardian's decision to publicise this fact certainly is worthy of mention. This is the first high-profile result of the European ruling, and seems to have fallen foul of the Streisand effect. Arguably, it is now the most significant piece of information about Mr McDonald; far more significant than anything to do with his career in football.
Liamcalling (
talk)
01:15, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if it would now be appropriate to have the "Celtic v Dundee United penalty controversy" as an article in its own right.
That one incident has now generated several major issues;
1. Exposure of McDonald's lie 2. Resignations of Steven Craven and Dougie himself 3. Alleged involvement of Hugh Dallas in covering up lie 4. Lead up to Scottish referees strike 5. On-going distrust between Celtic and the football authorities in Scotland 6. Google debacle
Given the above, and the significant involvement of three individuals (Dougie McDonald, Steven Craven and Hugh Dallas), what is everyone elses thoughts on a seperate article? ShugSty ( talk) 10:11, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, the article is tagged for "undue weight" and that seems reasonable. There's an awful lot of material on this one call. I guess people take this pretty serious over there or something. Anyway, sure is hard to sort out, but I'm not seeing that there was any corruption here. Looks like he made a mistake or something. That sucks. I hate it when people make mistakes. I've never made one so I only know about that as an observer, though. :/
It's an encyclopedia article. Don't know how deep into the weeds we need to get on the details. We want to answer the question "Who is this person?" and the answer is pretty much 1) a long-term football referee who 2) got himself in a pretty big controversy which ended up with a strike and him resigning and everything and then 3) an early "right to be forgotten" case. He's not really that notable a person. The refs are there if you want to really dig into the guy's life.
Probably this amount of detail would be OK if it wasn't a tagged BLP. We're supposed to take tags on BLPs pretty seriously. Granted this is for undue weight rather than unreferenced defamatory material or something which would be much worse, but it's still a tag saying that the BLP is not right and not right in a way that is contrary to the subject's interests and needlessly so. The point I guess is that just spending so much prose on the incident, even if there's nothing directly negative in the material, casts the rest of his presumably no-worse-than-the-next-guy private-citizen life into shadow.
So I cut it down, a lot. It's an attempt. By all means put it back if you want and let's look at it how else we can fix this. But let's not ignore the assertion of undue weight. You can refute it and we can talk about about but for a BLP the burden would be to show that all this is necessary to answering the question "Who is Dougie McDonald?" at a level appropriate for an encyclopedia.
Couple other minor points: what is a "match observer". It looks to me like its some sort of person who attends a match and is employed by the league in some official capacity. Maybe the head referee, can't tell. I changed it to "league official" so regular people can understand it. If you want to restore it, explain it please. An article Match official would be great.
I'm not really happy with "Another referee was given a lifetime ban" (it's ref'd). There's certainly no need to name him (he's a private citizen) and so let's not. But even including the reference sticks in my craw a little bit. I'd rather it wasn't there but I wasn't sure it's not necessary or helpful. Herostratus ( talk) 22:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I made some changes to this article, which were reverted so am giving a fuller explanation here. There are issues with writing referee articles as the popular press is bias and only really cover them when they make mistakes. Fortunately we have WP:BLP and WP:NPOV (in particular WP:BALASP) policies. I have since removed the overcited tabloid sources and hope that no one will reinsert those.
My edit trimmed the controversy section and moved it into the career aspect of his biography, which it forms a part of. The salient points were kept without giving it undue attention. As a general rule we should avoid having sections labelled controversy in BLPs and I don't see why this is any different (if it is then we should have or make an article about it). I did the same with the "After 2013" section as this is a horrible name for a section and all but one sentence related to the aforementioned controversy. Most of the bytes removed in my edit pertained to the daily record (whoever used that as a source should be ashamed of themselves).
For more information on what I am trying to achieve in referee bios see the still being developed User:Aircorn/Sandbox/REF. AIRcorn (talk) 11:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
McDonald refereed a Scottish Premier League match on 17 October 2010 between Dundee United and Celtic. He awarded a penalty kick to Celtic in the 70th minute, but reversed the decision after consulting one of the assistant referees. The incident became the subject of an investigation and McDonald was censured by the SFA Referee Committee for lying in his post-match report about the circumstances surrounding his decision. The assistant referee involved was given a lifetime ban. Four years later several links to articles relating to the incident were removed from Google's search results under the EU Court of Justice's Right to be forgotten ruling. Following complaints, Google restored links to articles in The Guardian newspaper. The attempt to have the links removed drew more attention to the matter, and was seen as an example of the Streisand effect.
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Guardian piece. Probably not worth mentioning in the article if this will be the only coverage. -- NeilN talk to me 16:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the fact that it was covered in the three original Guardian article makes it relevant. The Guardian is certainly a reliable source. At the very least there should be a link to the Guardian articles on this page, if not also a link to the article about why those three links are suppressed from search results on Google in the UK.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/oct/29/dougie-mcdonald-sfa-warning-penalty-celtic
Referee at centre of Celtic penalty incident escapes with a warning • Dougie McDonald 'lied' in original statement, concludes report • Official 'full of remorse' after linesman's decision to retire
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/oct/30/dougie-mcdonald-penalty-sfa
Dougie McDonald penalty saga exposes need for SFA transparency Referees' tendency to protect their own is again manifesting itself in the response to the Dundee United-Celtic penalty controversy
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/28/dougie-mdconald-scottish-referee
Dougie McDonald, Scottish referee who lied over reversing penalty quits • 'I apologise for my role in that' • McDonald says more action from referees will follow
Xardox ( talk) 18:01, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
The exclusion from Google European searches, and the Guardian's decision to publicise this fact certainly is worthy of mention. This is the first high-profile result of the European ruling, and seems to have fallen foul of the Streisand effect. Arguably, it is now the most significant piece of information about Mr McDonald; far more significant than anything to do with his career in football.
Liamcalling (
talk)
01:15, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if it would now be appropriate to have the "Celtic v Dundee United penalty controversy" as an article in its own right.
That one incident has now generated several major issues;
1. Exposure of McDonald's lie 2. Resignations of Steven Craven and Dougie himself 3. Alleged involvement of Hugh Dallas in covering up lie 4. Lead up to Scottish referees strike 5. On-going distrust between Celtic and the football authorities in Scotland 6. Google debacle
Given the above, and the significant involvement of three individuals (Dougie McDonald, Steven Craven and Hugh Dallas), what is everyone elses thoughts on a seperate article? ShugSty ( talk) 10:11, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, the article is tagged for "undue weight" and that seems reasonable. There's an awful lot of material on this one call. I guess people take this pretty serious over there or something. Anyway, sure is hard to sort out, but I'm not seeing that there was any corruption here. Looks like he made a mistake or something. That sucks. I hate it when people make mistakes. I've never made one so I only know about that as an observer, though. :/
It's an encyclopedia article. Don't know how deep into the weeds we need to get on the details. We want to answer the question "Who is this person?" and the answer is pretty much 1) a long-term football referee who 2) got himself in a pretty big controversy which ended up with a strike and him resigning and everything and then 3) an early "right to be forgotten" case. He's not really that notable a person. The refs are there if you want to really dig into the guy's life.
Probably this amount of detail would be OK if it wasn't a tagged BLP. We're supposed to take tags on BLPs pretty seriously. Granted this is for undue weight rather than unreferenced defamatory material or something which would be much worse, but it's still a tag saying that the BLP is not right and not right in a way that is contrary to the subject's interests and needlessly so. The point I guess is that just spending so much prose on the incident, even if there's nothing directly negative in the material, casts the rest of his presumably no-worse-than-the-next-guy private-citizen life into shadow.
So I cut it down, a lot. It's an attempt. By all means put it back if you want and let's look at it how else we can fix this. But let's not ignore the assertion of undue weight. You can refute it and we can talk about about but for a BLP the burden would be to show that all this is necessary to answering the question "Who is Dougie McDonald?" at a level appropriate for an encyclopedia.
Couple other minor points: what is a "match observer". It looks to me like its some sort of person who attends a match and is employed by the league in some official capacity. Maybe the head referee, can't tell. I changed it to "league official" so regular people can understand it. If you want to restore it, explain it please. An article Match official would be great.
I'm not really happy with "Another referee was given a lifetime ban" (it's ref'd). There's certainly no need to name him (he's a private citizen) and so let's not. But even including the reference sticks in my craw a little bit. I'd rather it wasn't there but I wasn't sure it's not necessary or helpful. Herostratus ( talk) 22:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I made some changes to this article, which were reverted so am giving a fuller explanation here. There are issues with writing referee articles as the popular press is bias and only really cover them when they make mistakes. Fortunately we have WP:BLP and WP:NPOV (in particular WP:BALASP) policies. I have since removed the overcited tabloid sources and hope that no one will reinsert those.
My edit trimmed the controversy section and moved it into the career aspect of his biography, which it forms a part of. The salient points were kept without giving it undue attention. As a general rule we should avoid having sections labelled controversy in BLPs and I don't see why this is any different (if it is then we should have or make an article about it). I did the same with the "After 2013" section as this is a horrible name for a section and all but one sentence related to the aforementioned controversy. Most of the bytes removed in my edit pertained to the daily record (whoever used that as a source should be ashamed of themselves).
For more information on what I am trying to achieve in referee bios see the still being developed User:Aircorn/Sandbox/REF. AIRcorn (talk) 11:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
McDonald refereed a Scottish Premier League match on 17 October 2010 between Dundee United and Celtic. He awarded a penalty kick to Celtic in the 70th minute, but reversed the decision after consulting one of the assistant referees. The incident became the subject of an investigation and McDonald was censured by the SFA Referee Committee for lying in his post-match report about the circumstances surrounding his decision. The assistant referee involved was given a lifetime ban. Four years later several links to articles relating to the incident were removed from Google's search results under the EU Court of Justice's Right to be forgotten ruling. Following complaints, Google restored links to articles in The Guardian newspaper. The attempt to have the links removed drew more attention to the matter, and was seen as an example of the Streisand effect.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dougie McDonald. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:21, 13 September 2017 (UTC)