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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
@ Vormeph: please be aware of the Behavioral guidelines in Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. These issues tend to take on a life of their own, and start processes beyond the control of the parties involved, and take up enormous amounts of time and attention. No one wants this. I urge you to consider:
Researchers have identified several factors in linguistics which affect the use of the double negative. In summary, the various dialects of English occupy the spectrum of use of negative concord, from none at all, to obligatory. Standard English has lost Negative Concord, but African_American_Vernacular_English#.22Deep.22_AAVE still has Negative Concord . There are several citations, William Labov (1972) "Negative Attraction and Negative Concord in English Grammar" (via JSTOR) and Amel Kallel (2011) The Loss of Negative Concord in Standard English, which directly contradict your position.
(Parenthetically, William Labov is the subject of an article. His views about Negative Attraction show that negative concord is a variable feature in English. In contrast, negative attraction to the word 'any' is invariant across all dialects of English. For example, in Labov 1972 on page 777 "Anybody doesn't sit there anymore" is invariably rejected as nongrammatical across all dialects. But the Standard dialect and the African_American_Vernacular dialect display two different solutions for fixing the ill-formed sentence of p.777.)
-- Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 14:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
204.112.125.238 ( talk) 00:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
In the ancient Greek section it says that double negations result in positives and then in the modern Greek section it states: "In Modern Greek, negative concord is standard: Κανείς δεν μίλησε, literally "No one not spoke", is far more common than Κανείς μίλησε, "No one spoke". An exception is the pronoun ουδείς, also meaning "no one", which does not allow negation of the verb it governs."
- however this is generally, but not always true, because you could say "ουδεις ου δε εμιλησε ου δε εφανη" for example and is applicable both in the ancient and the modern.
204.112.125.238 ( talk) 00:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
23.1.2016
It is a profound inaccuracy to translate "κανείς" as no one. "κανείς" does not have an independent negative function in a sentence. "Κανείς" literally means "even one", "someone". Only when "κανείς" is combined with the standard verb negators, then it acquires the meaning of "no one". This can be proven- a contrario- also by the fact that when someone asks "Κανείς εδώ;", the meaning is "(is) anybody here?". Therefore, any postulation that negative concord is standard in Modern Greek is at least ambiguous and debatable, if not false at all.
85.75.28.117 ( talk) 16:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Should some examples in Spanish be added in the Romance languages section? I see that other examples in other Romance languages don't have a source, should I add them outright (along with an explanation of the usage? — Giratina000 ¡Hola! 16:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Evrik, You've been summoned here to explain why you are insisting this image: file:I wont not use no double negatives.jpg at the blackboard in the opening sequence of Hello Gutter, Hello Fadder should be considered for inclusion within the article. Firstly, although the image refers to double negatives its opinion derives from a TV show which however comedic is not appropriate here. Vormeph ( talk) 23:25, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
The article seems to indicate that Japanese normally uses double negative. This is not true. Normally Japanese does not use double negative. I believe there is only one grammatical construction in Japanese that could be considered double negative, which is when the word "keshite" (by no means) is used. It seems like exaggeration to include Japanese in the introduction. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 03:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
some dialects have this feature does this mean I can edit wiktionary to add "dumb" and "stupid" as synonyms to "ridiculously". I frequent websites that have many AAVE speakers and the phrases "stupid thick" and "dumb thick" are quite common. Also, many people all over the world use "infer" to mean "imply" and are understood. So, can they be synonyms? Yoga Conflagration ( talk) 01:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
"When two negatives are used in one sentence, the negatives are understood to cancel one another"
"If not X then not Y" is not the same as "if X then Y". That is two negatives used in one sentence that don't cancel each other. That's not even two independent clauses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:9D00:D58B:8C23:6C0A:77F0:9A58 ( talk) 06:52, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
This has evolved further, so that in French colloquial speech, ne is often left out, leaving pas to serve as the sole negating element: "Je sais pas" or "sais pas" mean "I don't know."
This is incorrect. "Je sais pas" is a langage mistake, not a colloquialism. I realize that the frontier between familiar language and mistakes is a gray zone, but "je sais pas" would be tagged as "incorrect language" (or "lazy language") and not familair. The colloquialism would be "Je n'sais pas", the first negation being present. It is equivalent to "I dunno" in English. I will remove the quoted section if there are no comments. Wsw70 ( talk) 16:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know how to work it into the article, but it has been brought to my attention that in Andalusian Spanish ¡No ni na'!, despite literally meaning "No nor nothing" is an emphatic "Yes!". -- Error ( talk) 12:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:53, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't believe "ne pas" is a double negation, it is a simple negation. The simple negation in French occurs with 2 particles. When the author says that it occurs in Romance languages, that's totally wrong, the double-particle French negation (and not double negation) is not present in Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, etc... The sources for this are "See the article regarding Romance languages explaining this form of double negation."
It is not a source!!! The author confuses the French negation, and the double negation, and doesn't give any sources! "French is the only Romance language to use double negation for its standard negation." ==> That's true
It's really ambiguous to use French to explain the difference between the English double negation and Romance languages, as French seems to have a double negation when it's not, this article is really explained poorly, the examples are not good. I added that "pas" only is not grammatical or proper, as your article seems to say it's normal and modern French and doesn't explain when. It's confusing for people who want to learn the language and read your article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 ( talk • contribs) 22:26, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The Romance examples are not true double negatives, as words like "personne" and "rien" could equally be translated "anyone" and "anything" rather than "no one" and "nothing". "Rien" comes from the Latin for "thing" (as in "I didn't see a thing"), while the primary meaning of "personne" is obvious. Similarly, words like "pas", "point" or "du tout" could be translated as "at all". -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 14:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't agree with what the article says about Russian and other Slavic languages. It says that multiple negatives affirm each other. That is just wrong. Double negatives - that is, double negative particle "не"/"ne" - cancel each other so that the sentence with double "ne" becomes positive. Examples: "не мог не прийти" ("ne mog ne pri'ti", lit. "could not not come") = had to come; "нельзя не сознаться" ("nel'zya ne soznat'sya", lit. "not possible to not confess") = "must confess", etc etc. Such double negatives are not infrequent.
The examples used in the article, such as "я ничего не знаю" ("ya nichevo ne znayu" - "I know nothing") and others are not double negatives, because they have only one negation particle "не"/"ne". The other parts of these examples use a different particle - "ни"/"ni" - which is not a negation particle by itself, it is just an auxiliary particle used in negative sentences, therefore it doesn't create "double negation" (in which case the negatives would cancel each other and the sentence would become positive, like in the examples above). TheInevitable ( talk) 12:23, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Even formal Standard English has some constructions where negation is expressed more than once, e.g. "neither… nor…" -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 18:15, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
@ Vormeph: please be aware of the Behavioral guidelines in Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. These issues tend to take on a life of their own, and start processes beyond the control of the parties involved, and take up enormous amounts of time and attention. No one wants this. I urge you to consider:
Researchers have identified several factors in linguistics which affect the use of the double negative. In summary, the various dialects of English occupy the spectrum of use of negative concord, from none at all, to obligatory. Standard English has lost Negative Concord, but African_American_Vernacular_English#.22Deep.22_AAVE still has Negative Concord . There are several citations, William Labov (1972) "Negative Attraction and Negative Concord in English Grammar" (via JSTOR) and Amel Kallel (2011) The Loss of Negative Concord in Standard English, which directly contradict your position.
(Parenthetically, William Labov is the subject of an article. His views about Negative Attraction show that negative concord is a variable feature in English. In contrast, negative attraction to the word 'any' is invariant across all dialects of English. For example, in Labov 1972 on page 777 "Anybody doesn't sit there anymore" is invariably rejected as nongrammatical across all dialects. But the Standard dialect and the African_American_Vernacular dialect display two different solutions for fixing the ill-formed sentence of p.777.)
-- Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 14:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
204.112.125.238 ( talk) 00:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
In the ancient Greek section it says that double negations result in positives and then in the modern Greek section it states: "In Modern Greek, negative concord is standard: Κανείς δεν μίλησε, literally "No one not spoke", is far more common than Κανείς μίλησε, "No one spoke". An exception is the pronoun ουδείς, also meaning "no one", which does not allow negation of the verb it governs."
- however this is generally, but not always true, because you could say "ουδεις ου δε εμιλησε ου δε εφανη" for example and is applicable both in the ancient and the modern.
204.112.125.238 ( talk) 00:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
23.1.2016
It is a profound inaccuracy to translate "κανείς" as no one. "κανείς" does not have an independent negative function in a sentence. "Κανείς" literally means "even one", "someone". Only when "κανείς" is combined with the standard verb negators, then it acquires the meaning of "no one". This can be proven- a contrario- also by the fact that when someone asks "Κανείς εδώ;", the meaning is "(is) anybody here?". Therefore, any postulation that negative concord is standard in Modern Greek is at least ambiguous and debatable, if not false at all.
85.75.28.117 ( talk) 16:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Should some examples in Spanish be added in the Romance languages section? I see that other examples in other Romance languages don't have a source, should I add them outright (along with an explanation of the usage? — Giratina000 ¡Hola! 16:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Evrik, You've been summoned here to explain why you are insisting this image: file:I wont not use no double negatives.jpg at the blackboard in the opening sequence of Hello Gutter, Hello Fadder should be considered for inclusion within the article. Firstly, although the image refers to double negatives its opinion derives from a TV show which however comedic is not appropriate here. Vormeph ( talk) 23:25, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
The article seems to indicate that Japanese normally uses double negative. This is not true. Normally Japanese does not use double negative. I believe there is only one grammatical construction in Japanese that could be considered double negative, which is when the word "keshite" (by no means) is used. It seems like exaggeration to include Japanese in the introduction. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 03:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
some dialects have this feature does this mean I can edit wiktionary to add "dumb" and "stupid" as synonyms to "ridiculously". I frequent websites that have many AAVE speakers and the phrases "stupid thick" and "dumb thick" are quite common. Also, many people all over the world use "infer" to mean "imply" and are understood. So, can they be synonyms? Yoga Conflagration ( talk) 01:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
"When two negatives are used in one sentence, the negatives are understood to cancel one another"
"If not X then not Y" is not the same as "if X then Y". That is two negatives used in one sentence that don't cancel each other. That's not even two independent clauses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:9D00:D58B:8C23:6C0A:77F0:9A58 ( talk) 06:52, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
This has evolved further, so that in French colloquial speech, ne is often left out, leaving pas to serve as the sole negating element: "Je sais pas" or "sais pas" mean "I don't know."
This is incorrect. "Je sais pas" is a langage mistake, not a colloquialism. I realize that the frontier between familiar language and mistakes is a gray zone, but "je sais pas" would be tagged as "incorrect language" (or "lazy language") and not familair. The colloquialism would be "Je n'sais pas", the first negation being present. It is equivalent to "I dunno" in English. I will remove the quoted section if there are no comments. Wsw70 ( talk) 16:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know how to work it into the article, but it has been brought to my attention that in Andalusian Spanish ¡No ni na'!, despite literally meaning "No nor nothing" is an emphatic "Yes!". -- Error ( talk) 12:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:53, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't believe "ne pas" is a double negation, it is a simple negation. The simple negation in French occurs with 2 particles. When the author says that it occurs in Romance languages, that's totally wrong, the double-particle French negation (and not double negation) is not present in Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, etc... The sources for this are "See the article regarding Romance languages explaining this form of double negation."
It is not a source!!! The author confuses the French negation, and the double negation, and doesn't give any sources! "French is the only Romance language to use double negation for its standard negation." ==> That's true
It's really ambiguous to use French to explain the difference between the English double negation and Romance languages, as French seems to have a double negation when it's not, this article is really explained poorly, the examples are not good. I added that "pas" only is not grammatical or proper, as your article seems to say it's normal and modern French and doesn't explain when. It's confusing for people who want to learn the language and read your article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 ( talk • contribs) 22:26, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The Romance examples are not true double negatives, as words like "personne" and "rien" could equally be translated "anyone" and "anything" rather than "no one" and "nothing". "Rien" comes from the Latin for "thing" (as in "I didn't see a thing"), while the primary meaning of "personne" is obvious. Similarly, words like "pas", "point" or "du tout" could be translated as "at all". -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 14:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't agree with what the article says about Russian and other Slavic languages. It says that multiple negatives affirm each other. That is just wrong. Double negatives - that is, double negative particle "не"/"ne" - cancel each other so that the sentence with double "ne" becomes positive. Examples: "не мог не прийти" ("ne mog ne pri'ti", lit. "could not not come") = had to come; "нельзя не сознаться" ("nel'zya ne soznat'sya", lit. "not possible to not confess") = "must confess", etc etc. Such double negatives are not infrequent.
The examples used in the article, such as "я ничего не знаю" ("ya nichevo ne znayu" - "I know nothing") and others are not double negatives, because they have only one negation particle "не"/"ne". The other parts of these examples use a different particle - "ни"/"ni" - which is not a negation particle by itself, it is just an auxiliary particle used in negative sentences, therefore it doesn't create "double negation" (in which case the negatives would cancel each other and the sentence would become positive, like in the examples above). TheInevitable ( talk) 12:23, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Even formal Standard English has some constructions where negation is expressed more than once, e.g. "neither… nor…" -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 18:15, 23 June 2021 (UTC)