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I do believe that in the early days of Jazz, a man called Bob Haggart invented something called the syncopated triple slap technique. THis is described in his book on Bass playing. This does sound similar to that technique which User:Badagnani describes and I think therefore should be included in the article. I can provide a ref if needed!-- Light current 23:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Well it is (was) a recognised technique in the thirties (Im told!) So whether it should be included Im not sure. I mean how far back are we going in jazz ? (or classical for that matter). I dont think a separate article would be desirable. Just a short mention will be OK-- Light current 23:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Be careful how you throw the term "virtuosic" around. But anyways, the music sounds cool. — ßottesiηi Tell me what's up 20:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I turn my back and look what happens! I was going to comment on a version of the page I printed last week, but that page is in the bit bucket. Okay, so some off-the cuff notes on where the page is now. Some of these may be blunt, inflammatory even, so take them with a grain of salt. Some of these reinforce discussion above (to the extent that I have scanned it)
OK - the above are some quick gut reactions for others to mull over their worth, and to incorporate into future edits. Some of these are corrections that are quick to make (I would have made them, but I was not in "correcting" mode) and others require a bit more careful planning and thinking. HTH! Andrew Kepert 10:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
THis para seems to be very short campared with the other genres. Do you think we should try to balance up the amount of content on the different styles of music in which the DB is used?-- Light current 17:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I dont recall anynoe removing stuff- certanly not I. Ill have a look at earlier versions to see whats there. BTW I lke the new pic - but is that the natual color or is it just the most worn out double bass ever!! 8-? -- Light current 12:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Found the stuff and reinserted it.8-) Now the para is the largest and may need some pruning 8-(-- Light current 12:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah its because the page is about double bass. Stan and Jaco played fretless electric. 8-|-- Light current 13:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. But the para is really supposed to be about the role of the DB in jazz and not necessarily the players- although I agree its hard to separate the two. I feel we should only mention the pepole known mainly for jazz DB playing. But if we could concentrate on the role of the DB rather than the players, I thikn that would be preferable.8-|-- Light current 16:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I think we could restrict mention to those who were actually innovators in the use of the DB. Mingus is probably one. Chambers another (arco style). But someone like Ray Brown (who is one of my favorites) I dont think warrants being mentioned under these criteria 8-(-- Light current 16:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. What I suggest is that we all propose names here of jazz bassists with the reason for their importance. Ill start it off; Please ad to the list, then we can all agree on how to prune it to the bare essentials. -- Light current 17:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
AS I said earlier, we should restrict mention of players to those who have been major innovators on the DB in jazz. Otherwise, the section will grow out of proportion. I agree that Ray Brown was a fantastic, solid player, and actually my hero, but I dont think he was an innovator really. Also, I dont think it appropriate to mention players just 'cos of the people they played with. Sorry to appear so uncaring but we have to be strict to make this a good article. 8-(-- Light current 07:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. I said Ray Brown was my hero but unfortunately, I cant think of any innovations he made. He was just a damn good bass player. But there are other 'damn good bass players' Anyway I see he's still mentioned. I wont be removing his name (but I wont be putting it back either) 8-( -- Light current 21:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
These are just suggestions- please add to/delete/amend as you see fit!
Yeah well, I think we should pick one only from each substyle as an example of that substyle. That would give more than enough matl for the para! 8-| -- Light current 17:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
OK well these were just my guesses. Please amend the list as you see fit! 8-)-- Light current 18:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Well of course that is one way of doing it. The problem is that we may get into an article edit war situation. I thought it would be best to thrash out the problems on the talk page first. Edit warring on the talk page is obviously not as damaging to the article! Im not sure if you are talking about discussing things on the talk page first or not! I thought this would be a reasonable way to come to a rough consensus of whom we might include. It would not be definitive, but just a gut feeling amongst we interested editors. Of course, someone elese with superior knowledge could come along and change things. But we have to start somewhere! I am not an expert on great jazz bass players but 'I know what I like'. However I am willing to be educated as to who the real giants are!-- Light current 00:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Well of course others could be added later. But we need to decide on the main infuential players here initially and reach some consensus. 8-)-- Light current 10:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Just letting you all know that I have tickets to go see Edgar Meyer tomorrow night. I'm excited. — ßottesiηi Tell me what's up 18:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
This article fails many gudielines for a good article, poor referencing/citations, over-reliance on a single source, (in this case Paul Brun's book) confusion over established definitions of terms, or misuse of those terms, as well as a large degree of internal inconsistency. A list of items that need major attention.
Origins and History section. this entire section is a poorly worded paraphrase of Brun's book, but taken out of context to promote the specific and unverifiable viewpoint that the bass is a gamba or viol family member, and not a violin at all. Also makes this section contradictory to later sections (e.g. Design section)
Tone. Nowhere in this section is there an actual description of the tone of the instrument, instead there is only a comparison to the bass guitar. (electric bass guitar? acoustic bass guitar? That should be explicit and not infered from the next two paragraphs) This is inappropriate as it does not at any time describe the bowed tone of the instrument. Further, the comparison to the bass guitar is inaccurate. The presence or absence of frets does not create or relieve the 'buzz tone' that the article describes. Buzz tone is a matter of playing technique, string material and specifications, (particularly thickness and tension) and the individual characteristics of each instrument. This section should be replaced entirely with specific descriptions of the tone, or a media file of a few long tones.
Construction. again, a section that is inconsistent with the rest of the article. An unverifable claim that the bass is closest to the violone, followed by descriptions of the violin family internal construction. Perhaps merge this section with 'Tuning.'
Strings. No mention of the use of silk strings for solo performance. Specifying specific strings is probably inapropriate for an encyclopedia, doubly so as there is no way to describe the tone differences between strings without a basic description of tone. Also look at this-
If we cut the unecesscary descriptor 'classic' and all other places where such language shows up, we'll save space in a long, and somewhat meandering article. Besides, even steel strings are unclear in the high register, the advent of steel strings and synthetic core strings led to higher playing positions generally, no just on the E string. Simandl also avoided the higher 4th string positions because of the physical and endurance challenges in playing thick, high tension gut strings.
Technique. This section really describes posture, not technique. I think it should be rewritten to include a description of finger technique, or include descriptions of feasible technical agility on the instrument.
The middle of the article is extremely well written, whoever cooked up the sections on bows, practical problems, and madern playing styles, congratulations.
Repertoire. there is confusion here over what constitutes solo works. Everything described in this section is either an orchestral solo excerpt, (Saint-Saens) or chamber music. (Mozart, K. 612) The 'Solo Works' should be better labelled 'Orchestral Solos.' True 'Solo Works,' (non-Concertos) would be things like Bert Turetzky's D Blues For the Solo Double Bass Which has no accompianment part, or the adapted version of Ernest Bloch's Prayer from A Jewish Life. Also Mention should be made of work transcribed from other instruments rep lists. It May be time for a Main article on Double Bass rep, as this section could get out of control pretty quick.
The rest of the article is high quality, but there are still general formatting and citation issues. I feel this is a confusing article in it's present state and I'm looking for consensus to remove the Good Article tag. I won't unilaterally take the tag off, and I would like some feedback or rebuttal if anyone thinks I'm out of line. -- Macjonesjazz
To quote my comment to
Macjonesjazz's user page:
I invite you to contribute to the double bass article yourself. This is wikipedia, anyone can edit. Instead of only listing well-founded complaints on the talk page, it would be nice if you were a little more pro-active and edited the article to improve it while explaining your actions on the talk page. Again, welcome to Wikipedia!
— ßott e siηi (talk) 01:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the reference to Jaco Pastorius where it used to refer to him in the career section as a composer. Jaco did not play the double bass so I substituted him with Dave Holland, who is a better example of a jazz bassist/composer in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.211.30 ( talk) 04:35, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
There should be a differentiation between double bass and upright bass, so we should split this page into two. Although generally the same physically, they serve a different function. Most bassists in other genres do not call it a double bass because the "double" term is irrelevant. The instrument's role and function is different. The Double Bass should retain the classical content while the content for jazz and various genres should be moved to an upright bass page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.194.236.218 ( talk) 15:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm reposting this so I don't delete the source in case someone wants to use it for something else:
"Tuning in fifths can also make the instrument louder, because the strings have more common overtones, causing the strings to [[sympathetic vibration|vibrate sympathetically]].<ref name="fifths">[http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/bassinfifthsarticle.htm ''Taking the Fifth: How Tuning in Fifths Changed My Experience Playing the Double Bass''], Dennis Masuzzo</ref>"
This is just not true. There are more common overtones on open strings, but as soon as you finger a note, this commonality disappears. The same commonality can be accomplished by playing a fifth interval on a fourths-tuned instrument. This source is a player with much more experience than I, but he is not a physicist and his understanding of the physics of sound is very limited. Conical Johnson ( talk) 05:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Conical Johnson, please listen to Bottesini: Music for Double Bass and Piano, volume 2. Joel Quarington and Hal Robinson play the Gran Duo together. Please tell me who you can hear better. It's not a engineering or mastering trick, Joel plays in fifths and sounds clearer because of it. Louder? No, probably not louder. http://www.amazon.com/Bottesini-Music-Double-Bass-Piano/dp/B0013JZ4HG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.95.134.171 ( talk) 01:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever thought Joel Quarrington sounds clearer because he might just play clearer?-- 99.181.21.113 ( talk) 07:31, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is where we will put together a list of issues and strategies, based on comments made above. Feel free to add to the list, or to add signed comments against each item. I have only started this as a template for me or others to proceed on. Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Playing and performance problems Do we need this language? From my reading of this section of the article, this is really about technical issues and use of the word problems is not constructive or open in its approach (for example weather a player stands or sits is not a problem - just a professional consideration) Also ask yourself does the violin section have a Playing and performance problems section? - Part of me feels that this is a hang over from the original Brtanica article that was some what derogatory in it's consideration of this most Noble on instruments. May be re name this section something like Playing and performance considerations? or simply Playing and performance
Statements such as (in the largest orchestras, the bass section may have as many as twelve bassists) don't make sense when you consider a large orchestra may have 20 - 30 violins Steve Abrahall ( talk) 11:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
As no one objected to my sugestions I have changed the name of the sub section. - Note section still needs work as it contains tautology
Steve Abrahall ( talk) 01:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
In the article, it jumps from jazz to bluegrass to early rock and roll. But the link is the early rhythm and blues of Louis Jordan (very popular throughout the 1940s), which did use a double bass to great effect. Bill Haley copied Jordan's basic style years later. This should probably be added in the early part of the "pop" paragraph, as Jordan is generally credited as being the bridge between jazz and rock and roll. Here's an article about his bassist: http://library.missouristate.edu/meyer/speccoll/Bartley/pages/playing.htm Badagnani 20:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I put something in. Badagnani 01:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
That is one fantastic photo! Badagnani 22:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Although it doesn't show Foster "in action." Badagnani 22:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
It looks cropped because there's some other guy muscling into the shot. Check out the slapping link I just added if you get a chance; it's extremely informative. Badagnani 23:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I am wondering about the credibility of A New History of the Double Bass saying that the double bass is the member of the violin family. Does the double bass really have the internal structure similar to that of
violin,
viola, and
cello, and different from that of
viola da gamba? And all the viol-like features of the double bass
(i.e. sloping shoulders, tuning in 4ths, etc.)-- are they merely modifications to make the instrument more convenient for playing? (i know the German bow system is not)
P.S.
All your bass are belong to us!!!!
['frαs.ti]
20:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is the "usage" change not discussed here? "Use" is better than "usage." Badagnani 23:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Because "smiley faces" are smarmy. The English language in the hands of a competent writer did not require pictograms in the many centuries before the Internet went commercial, and it does not require them now.
I created this diagram from a picture of my own bass. Anybody think it should go in the article somewhere? The image to the right is not full-size, obviously. Just click on it. — ßott e siηi (talk) 22:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I am the one who put the Jazzbass.jpg picture on the jazz section a few weeks back. It's a picture of my friend Rudy, a jazz bass player from Indonesia, well he's not really renowned internationally but quite renowned in Indonesia. I took that pic during a practice session in his studio in Bandung, Indonesia. Anyways, I think the pic is good to be put in the jazz section because it shows a playing technique that is distinctively jazz. Current porter picture, albeit historical, does not show he's playing a bass. So I would like to propose to also insert my picture in addition to the current jazz picture. My picture is not copyrighted anyway, and i think it explains the technique better. Thanks! Meutia Chaerani 10:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
He sandpapered that part of the bass, i forgot why he did it. I don't play bass myself so i can't put any opinion about that either Meutia Chaerani 22:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
How is the technique unique to jazz? And it's pretty obvious that Foster is a bass player considering that he's holding a bass. — ßott e siηi (talk) 15:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Is intonation more difficult on a double bass compared with other string instruments because of its size? It seems to me intonation as such, ie producing a note to the required pitch, is not really related to the size of the instrument, otherwise one could argue that a cello is easier to play in tune compared with a double bass because it is smaller, and a violin even easier. Yes, the positions for the fingers are further apart, so to play the same range of notes as a violin one needs to stretch their fingers and move their hand over wider distances but that is that is not intonation. LDHan 04:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The PNG file that shows the range of the double bass needs to be corrected. Double bass music is written an octave higher than it actually sounds, which causes the pitches of the four open strings in the diagram to be an octave higher than they actually are. The user that uploaded that PNG needs to add an 8va below the open strings for the diagram to be accurate.-- Markjdb 15:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, one note about the range image. It is only correct for four string basses. Five string basses, if they have a lower string, generally tune it down to a low B, which is lower than the C shown in parentheses on the image. Granted, five string basses are less common that four string ones, but it's probably worth being accurate. Lovelace ( talk) 04:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello! Recently I have looked for and found a very informative video on Youtube explaining the range of a double bass. The bassist, Jason Heath, has a 4-string Double Bass, which however, has a mechanical extension to subcontra-B (31 hz.). I realize this is very rare - or is it? The bassist also managed to play a B natural a semi-tone below the C two octaves above middle C. Coming back to my question: is the lowest string on a 5-string bass tuned more commonly to B natural or C. And, does anyone here know, own, and/or play a Double Bass with a low B-extension? -OliverKahnNr1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.52.131 ( talk) 22:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Since playing my EUB regularly now for about 9 months, I have developed a sore neck on the left side when I rotate my head to the left. i went to the doctor and he said it was due to the action of the left arm in playing the bass. He recommended an excersise with the arms thet make it look like Im doing the funky chicken dance. Anyone else had any similar problems?-- Light current 11:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Well I cant see that Im doing anything specifically wrong. What are these classes of which you speak ?-- Light current 00:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha very funky!. It works though! Try it and see!-- Light current 05:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this may be the key:
Muscle-Specific Bass Playing
When you play the bass, be careful to use only the muscles necessary to perform the specific tasks involved. As the body tires, the tendency is to overuse these muscles and to involve muscles that aren't necessary for playing. By building muscle-specific awareness, you can conserve energy, reduce the risk for injury, and allow your body to be more physically fit to play the bass.
from international bassist -- Light current 07:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Article says that DB s have always used M/C heads. Im sure I read somewhere that old DBs had pegs just like other members of violin family. Any comments?-- Light current 01:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It says that a citation is needed for the line below, but in reality this is common knowledge among bassists and will be found in most any source.
Historically, strings were made of gut, but since the 20th century steel has largely replaced gut due to its better playability.
Well, if most any source will do, why not just cite one of them? I, for one, do not use gut because of its short lifetime when exposed to moisture, not its playability. DaveCW ( talk) 08:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Sometime in my absence from wikipedia, all the images from the bow section disappeared. Anybody know what happened to them? -- ßott e siηi (talk) 02:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Some of this page (esp. the Origins and History section) appears to be copied from this web page: [2] which carries a copyright notice. I suppose it's possible that they copied it from here. Anyone know for sure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.204.170.66 ( talk • contribs)
Is that serious placing Fernando Grillo before Gary Karr and Edgar Meyer? Is he a more prominent player, with more experience and notability than those two? Badagnani 08:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Why, then, does he not only add himself in most paragraphs but he adds himself as the first name? And there is no Wikipedia article for him other than his user page. Badagnani 22:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow! He just added himself again, before Turetzky and Karr. Those players are senior in their field, with many decades of work, but I really don't think Grillo should be placed first in this list. Badagnani 01:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
He just put himself as the first name in all those sections. I don't think that's appropriate. Badagnani 22:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Do we not have the length of the instrument (in inches/centimeters) listed? Badagnani 08:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, then, we'd better at least have a "mean" for basses used for orchestral playing. As a bassist, I suppose you have access to this information? Badagnani 19:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The picture for the tuning of the bass needs to be changed to reflect its actual pitches, which would mean that the notes need to be lowered by an octave. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markjdb ( talk • contribs) 23:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Does he really belong alongside bassists like Bottesini and Simandl? Mehta is FAR better known as a conductor; the only time I've ever seen/heard him play bass was in a video of the trout quintet on youtube. His article doesn't even mention the fact that he's a double bassist...I would think that any addition to the list should be based on their contributions to the bass, instead of music in general (ie conducting). Markjdb 21:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess it's moot now... Markjdb 00:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The Bass is in no way related to the violin family and, as such, I am removing that information from the page. Kntrabssi 22:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The instrument is usually and traditionally considered a member of the violin family, and that doesn't hinge on whether it derives from the viol (or some viol). The instrument's derivation may be controversial, but its violin-family membership is not. TheScotch ( talk) 06:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I have difficulty with arguments about the 'evolution' or 'descent' of musical instruments. Instruments are creations of the human mind, not reproductive organisms. I do not claim to know about the history of the double bass, but I do know something about making and inventing instruments. When I make, modify, or invent an instrument, I usually use everything I can about everything I know to create the best instrument I can. I might, as an absurd instance, get inspiration from the shiny hardware on a clarinet (or a '57 Chevy for that matter) to design a new shiny tuning peg (or bridge or body) for a double bass. Does this make my double bass a member of the clarinet family?
At other times, I make an experimental instrument by flattening, rounding, straightening, sharpening, adding, subtracting, or otherwise subtly or radically modifying what I have made or seen before. Whether I, or someone in a large audience, gets inspiration from the experiment, and takes it further, is difficult or impossible to trace from one day to the next, let alone across centuries. I can't always pin down where my own inspiration came from, let alone someone else's.
I accept that trends and families exist in the development of instruments, and that there are many interesting and instructive accounts from history which demonstrate chains of innovative thought. I can not accept that there is proof of, or such a thing as, a pure descent for any instrument, as this would require a reconstruction of the experiences and thought processes of thousands of instrument makers through the centuries. As a logical thinker, not a historian, I regard statements such as the modern double bass has no relationship to the violin family as patently absurd. I think the many articles which claim to have certain knowledge of the evolution of musical instruments only degrade the overall quality of Wikipedia. DaveCW ( talk) 09:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In any case, we as editors are not allowed "original research" here; Wikipedia is obliged to go with what the most reputable sources say, and this is what Grove says about the subject of this section (membership in the violin family in contradistinction to derivation): "...the Double bass is also usually considered to be a member of the violin family though in some of its features – all explicable in terms of the practicalities of playing such a large instrument – the influence of the Viol family is apparent: it is tuned in 4ths rather than 5ths, historically had a variable number of strings and normally has sloping shoulders and a flat back that is ‘broken’ so that the upper section slopes inward towards the neck...." TheScotch ( talk) 06:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with DaveCW, talking about 'descent' is strange, and the double bass was probably created using elements of both the violin and the viol. I do not pretend to be an expert, but as I understand it this is basically what Paul Brun himself says. Here is an excerpt from his book: In effect, neither the cello nor the double bass are in any way derived from instruments they simply superseded. The offshoots of the bass violin, both of these instruments have been consistently in use from their inception in the late 17th Century to our own time. Admittedly, as a result of the demise of the viol family, a number of contrabass viols were converted into double basses at some point in history. But it is our view that the interpretation of the particular point should not lead to unsubstantiated generalizations, nor should it constitute an article of religion, to be accepted with unquestioning faith. TheScotch, the double bass is tuned in 5ths as well (although it is admittedly less common); the bass violin had three strings, showing that historically there was some variability in the violin family as well; and the wikipedia article itself states that the shape of the double bass can vary. Furthermore, the affirmation that The double bass is generally regarded as the only modern descendant of the viola da gamba family of instruments is debatable: it is just one body of opinion, and implying that it is the most reputable is questionable. I think that this article might be biased in favour of one body of opinion and therefore might infringe on Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Patrick59 ( talk) 00:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a mistake in the terminology: a " bass violin" is actually a cello ancestor and not a double bass. -- Shutterfreak ( talk) 10:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
In order to trim the size down a bit, should we just list repetoire, instead of giving a small description about quintets, concertos and such? Kntrabssi 09:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't many German orchestras use a five-string double bass? This seems as if it might be important enough to be mentioned in the main article. Grover cleveland 16:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Just talking to an American jazz bass player with a five-sring (and examining her instrument) last Thursday. The low string is B, a perfect fourth below the normal low E. (She does have an orchestra background too. She said her fingerboard is wider to accommodate the extra string, but not so wide that she doesn't have to bow much more carefully than she would on a four string to avoid hitting the wrong string.) The logic of C, though, is that many old orchestra scores give only one part for cellos and basses, and where the part goes below E it isn't clear what the bass is supposed to do (drop out? jump up an octave here? jump up an octave a bit before?). The five-string is one solution; an extension is another. (Saw plenty of instruments with extensions at a bass conference a month ago.)
TheScotch (
talk)
02:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Listen Badagnani 00:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
"The wire wrapping is gold or silver in quality bows..."
I know very little about bow or instrument construction, but I question this statement. If something is "gold or silver" it is usually for decorative and/or price-inflating purposes, not for "quality" purposes. I highly doubt that there is some particular tonal or structural quality shared by gold and silver, but not shared by any other (cheaper) metal. -- 74.229.197.48 01:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
In light of a severe lack of references, I have taken this article to Good Article review. -- Lenin and McCarthy | ( Complain here) 19:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The double ASS is generally & possibly mistakenly, regarded as the only modern descendant of the viola da gamba family of instruments, a family which originated in Europe in the 15th century, and as such it has been described as a "bass viol."
I figured I had better change that...
71.74.13.103 09:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Ray Brown is "known for his virtuosic bowing technique"? "the Fritz Kreisler of jazz double bass playing"? If ever a citation was needed, it's here. Wikipedia's page on him doesn't use the words "arco" or "bow" anywhere. I'm a huge fan of Ray Brown and don't remember ever having heard him play arco. http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608001296/Ray-Brown.html tells us that "His arco {bow} technique is excellent, though he seldom reveals it. " I got excited watching a YouTube video of the Oscar Peterson trio where Brown picks up a bow... and after using it to check his tuning he just puts it down again. In a jazz bass method book I have by him, there is a picture of him using a German bow, but again, I have yet to actually *hear* him use one. If there are a few examples out there, I'd love to hear them, but as reputedly the most recorded musician in history (because of all of his studio work), there's not nearly enough recorded arco work from him to justify the claim that he's "known for his virtuosic bowing technique." Bobdc 21:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobdc ( talk • contribs) 20:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | Ray Brown, known for his virtuosic bowing technique, has been called "the Fritz Kreisler of jazz double bass playing." | ” |
Badagnani 00:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that a certain website has basically plagarised the whole thing. They've just added a few things by themselves. Please do something about it! http://www.jazzdoublebass.com/articles/article.php?id=MQ== —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaunwhim2 ( talk • contribs) 05:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Discussion of the infobox that just showed up is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Instruments. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 23:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a music clip from the German Bottesini that we could use as a listening clip, so users could hear what a bass sounds like? Also, I'm sure there are many freely available jazz/pizzicato sound clips? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.127.171 ( talk) 19:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I changed the fingerings image, because I believed the other one was a bad example. Also, it was a poor image (taken of music with camera). So, I uploaded a new one with an excerpt of Tchaikovsky and added the fingerings with lilypond. What do y'all think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael miceli ( talk • contribs) 07:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Re: "I seriously doubt that many professional players even bother marking them in their parts.":
I think you assume too much. Cellists spend oodles of time deliberating about fingerings, and I certainly marked fingerings in my cello parts when I played in orchestra. Violin playing doesn't involve nearly as much shifting as cello playing, but bass playing involves more. It's true that professional orchestral parts aren't generally published with fingering, but fingering is certainly a valid topic for this thread; it's really only a question of where it should go and whether the way it's presented is misleading. TheScotch ( talk) 18:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to differentiate bowing and fingering here. Scores and parts do generally include bowing. This is often changed by the conductor or section leader, and the conductor or section leader usually sees to it that bowing is consistent within a section. Fingering is rarely included in scores and parts, and players generally work this out for themselves individually--fingerings are not usually dictated to them by the conductor or section leader. TheScotch ( talk) 06:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit removed from the opening sentence the terms bass violin, bass fiddle, and bull fiddle on the ground that "no one calls the bass, bass violin or bass fiddle. Even if they do, it's innacurate because the bass descends from the viol." I restored the terms, remarking, "Bass violin is actually a very common term & whatever its lineage, the instrument is considered part of violin family. Fiddle is the British term for violin. Not familiar w/bull fiddle."
In support of my restoration I now proffer this citation from the fourth edition of the American Heritage English Dictionary: "The double bass, usually considered a member of the violin family [my emphasis], is tuned in fourths and has the sloping shoulders and flat back characteristic of the viols. It has a deep range, going as low as three octaves below middle C. Also called bass fiddle [ditto], bass viol, bull fiddle [ditto], contrabass, string bass." TheScotch ( talk) 06:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm in full support for eliminating the terms bass violin and bass fiddle. Just because people refer to the instrument as that, does not mean it is correct. Dictionaries are not always right either, this is coming from an avid and active bass player pursuing a career in the field. I would rather not give them such incorrect names to such a wonderful instrument, I see it as an insult. Although I see the integrity of this page to be flawed in many areas, I would like to see the name correct amongst all things.
Also as opposed to what has been stated above, the bass is not a member of the violin family. Violins are tuned in fifths, the bass is tuned in fourths. The bass also has sloped shoulders characteristic to the viol family, for the most part at least, since all string instruments have large amounts of variation even within their instrument category. The violin family however have rounded shoulders. Still, the term bass viol wouldn't even be correct, since it has long since strayed away from that class. It no longer has frets like the viol family does. The bass is very much it's own, unique instrument. Neither viol, nor violin.
Thus, I beg that bass violin and bass fiddle be removed from the alternative names for the instrument. Let us not dumb down society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazkev92 ( talk • contribs) 04:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The discussion here seems to reflect a shocking ignorance of language and how it works, as well as the purposes of an encyclopedia. Words mean what people use them to mean. Bass fiddle, bass violin, and bull fiddle are entirely legitimate and commonly used terms for the instrument, especially in certain cultural circle. To label them "inaccurant," "incorrect," "ignorant," "undignified," reflect blatant prejudice, as well as a misunderstanding of language, of encyclopedias, and of the notion of ignorance, and, more importantly a misunderstanding of the principle of neutral point of view. People who come to an encyclopedia looking for basic information on topics should at the very least have access to information regarding various terms used for things that are covered. I am going to restore all the alternative names and I hope that there will be a discussion based on the values of information and language rather than that of blatant prejudice. Acsenray ( talk) 15:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, it should be possible to FIND information in Wikipedia. A redneck like me, desiring to become less ignorant, might only know the instrument as a 'bass fiddle' and would therefore do a search on that term. Should Wikipedia return no results? -- 68.144.70.5 ( talk) 17:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I believe that we should set a high standard for the external links section (for the Wikipedia guidelines on External Links, see WP:EL) Ideally, the External Links should be non-profit, educational or scholarly websites with a variety of quality resources and information on the topic. Along with other editors, I always remove advertising websites from the EL section, whether they are major online retailers or small indie instrument makers. However, with the Bluegrass webpage now in the EL section, we have a "grey zone." The bluegrass webpage does have resources on playing double bass. However it also has a large advertising sidebar on the left-hand side of the page, and a number of smaller "business card"-sized advertisements along the right side. I think that there are enough high quality non-profit, non-commercial websites out there that we should remove website links that have significant amounts of advertising......................................Is the Bluegrass webpage a non-profit webpage that has advertising just to cover its costs, or is it an advertising webpage that uses bluegrass content to draw webhits and make money? We don't know. But I think that we should err on the side of caution, and on the side of setting a high standard for the External Links section. Comments? OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 19:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I have run across this issue with other articles' links and could use more guidance in the form of more defined standards and policy. -- 68.144.70.5 ( talk) 17:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
correct me if im wrong, but isnt the double bass also used in many black, death, and symphonic metal songs? Chipthief00 ( talk) 16:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I have started a new wikiproject, WikiProject Stringed Instruments. I am looking for 2 other coordinators to help it get started. Apply on my talk page by answering the following questions.
1. Edit count, how long you have been active on Wikipedia.
2. How often you edit string-related articles. (Scale of 1-10)
3. What you hope to accomplish if made coordinator.
Please post by March 1, 2009.
ṜedMarkViolinist Drop me a line 19:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I do believe that in the early days of Jazz, a man called Bob Haggart invented something called the syncopated triple slap technique. THis is described in his book on Bass playing. This does sound similar to that technique which User:Badagnani describes and I think therefore should be included in the article. I can provide a ref if needed!-- Light current 23:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Well it is (was) a recognised technique in the thirties (Im told!) So whether it should be included Im not sure. I mean how far back are we going in jazz ? (or classical for that matter). I dont think a separate article would be desirable. Just a short mention will be OK-- Light current 23:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Be careful how you throw the term "virtuosic" around. But anyways, the music sounds cool. — ßottesiηi Tell me what's up 20:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I turn my back and look what happens! I was going to comment on a version of the page I printed last week, but that page is in the bit bucket. Okay, so some off-the cuff notes on where the page is now. Some of these may be blunt, inflammatory even, so take them with a grain of salt. Some of these reinforce discussion above (to the extent that I have scanned it)
OK - the above are some quick gut reactions for others to mull over their worth, and to incorporate into future edits. Some of these are corrections that are quick to make (I would have made them, but I was not in "correcting" mode) and others require a bit more careful planning and thinking. HTH! Andrew Kepert 10:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
THis para seems to be very short campared with the other genres. Do you think we should try to balance up the amount of content on the different styles of music in which the DB is used?-- Light current 17:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I dont recall anynoe removing stuff- certanly not I. Ill have a look at earlier versions to see whats there. BTW I lke the new pic - but is that the natual color or is it just the most worn out double bass ever!! 8-? -- Light current 12:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Found the stuff and reinserted it.8-) Now the para is the largest and may need some pruning 8-(-- Light current 12:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah its because the page is about double bass. Stan and Jaco played fretless electric. 8-|-- Light current 13:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. But the para is really supposed to be about the role of the DB in jazz and not necessarily the players- although I agree its hard to separate the two. I feel we should only mention the pepole known mainly for jazz DB playing. But if we could concentrate on the role of the DB rather than the players, I thikn that would be preferable.8-|-- Light current 16:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I think we could restrict mention to those who were actually innovators in the use of the DB. Mingus is probably one. Chambers another (arco style). But someone like Ray Brown (who is one of my favorites) I dont think warrants being mentioned under these criteria 8-(-- Light current 16:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. What I suggest is that we all propose names here of jazz bassists with the reason for their importance. Ill start it off; Please ad to the list, then we can all agree on how to prune it to the bare essentials. -- Light current 17:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
AS I said earlier, we should restrict mention of players to those who have been major innovators on the DB in jazz. Otherwise, the section will grow out of proportion. I agree that Ray Brown was a fantastic, solid player, and actually my hero, but I dont think he was an innovator really. Also, I dont think it appropriate to mention players just 'cos of the people they played with. Sorry to appear so uncaring but we have to be strict to make this a good article. 8-(-- Light current 07:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. I said Ray Brown was my hero but unfortunately, I cant think of any innovations he made. He was just a damn good bass player. But there are other 'damn good bass players' Anyway I see he's still mentioned. I wont be removing his name (but I wont be putting it back either) 8-( -- Light current 21:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
These are just suggestions- please add to/delete/amend as you see fit!
Yeah well, I think we should pick one only from each substyle as an example of that substyle. That would give more than enough matl for the para! 8-| -- Light current 17:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
OK well these were just my guesses. Please amend the list as you see fit! 8-)-- Light current 18:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Well of course that is one way of doing it. The problem is that we may get into an article edit war situation. I thought it would be best to thrash out the problems on the talk page first. Edit warring on the talk page is obviously not as damaging to the article! Im not sure if you are talking about discussing things on the talk page first or not! I thought this would be a reasonable way to come to a rough consensus of whom we might include. It would not be definitive, but just a gut feeling amongst we interested editors. Of course, someone elese with superior knowledge could come along and change things. But we have to start somewhere! I am not an expert on great jazz bass players but 'I know what I like'. However I am willing to be educated as to who the real giants are!-- Light current 00:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Well of course others could be added later. But we need to decide on the main infuential players here initially and reach some consensus. 8-)-- Light current 10:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Just letting you all know that I have tickets to go see Edgar Meyer tomorrow night. I'm excited. — ßottesiηi Tell me what's up 18:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
This article fails many gudielines for a good article, poor referencing/citations, over-reliance on a single source, (in this case Paul Brun's book) confusion over established definitions of terms, or misuse of those terms, as well as a large degree of internal inconsistency. A list of items that need major attention.
Origins and History section. this entire section is a poorly worded paraphrase of Brun's book, but taken out of context to promote the specific and unverifiable viewpoint that the bass is a gamba or viol family member, and not a violin at all. Also makes this section contradictory to later sections (e.g. Design section)
Tone. Nowhere in this section is there an actual description of the tone of the instrument, instead there is only a comparison to the bass guitar. (electric bass guitar? acoustic bass guitar? That should be explicit and not infered from the next two paragraphs) This is inappropriate as it does not at any time describe the bowed tone of the instrument. Further, the comparison to the bass guitar is inaccurate. The presence or absence of frets does not create or relieve the 'buzz tone' that the article describes. Buzz tone is a matter of playing technique, string material and specifications, (particularly thickness and tension) and the individual characteristics of each instrument. This section should be replaced entirely with specific descriptions of the tone, or a media file of a few long tones.
Construction. again, a section that is inconsistent with the rest of the article. An unverifable claim that the bass is closest to the violone, followed by descriptions of the violin family internal construction. Perhaps merge this section with 'Tuning.'
Strings. No mention of the use of silk strings for solo performance. Specifying specific strings is probably inapropriate for an encyclopedia, doubly so as there is no way to describe the tone differences between strings without a basic description of tone. Also look at this-
If we cut the unecesscary descriptor 'classic' and all other places where such language shows up, we'll save space in a long, and somewhat meandering article. Besides, even steel strings are unclear in the high register, the advent of steel strings and synthetic core strings led to higher playing positions generally, no just on the E string. Simandl also avoided the higher 4th string positions because of the physical and endurance challenges in playing thick, high tension gut strings.
Technique. This section really describes posture, not technique. I think it should be rewritten to include a description of finger technique, or include descriptions of feasible technical agility on the instrument.
The middle of the article is extremely well written, whoever cooked up the sections on bows, practical problems, and madern playing styles, congratulations.
Repertoire. there is confusion here over what constitutes solo works. Everything described in this section is either an orchestral solo excerpt, (Saint-Saens) or chamber music. (Mozart, K. 612) The 'Solo Works' should be better labelled 'Orchestral Solos.' True 'Solo Works,' (non-Concertos) would be things like Bert Turetzky's D Blues For the Solo Double Bass Which has no accompianment part, or the adapted version of Ernest Bloch's Prayer from A Jewish Life. Also Mention should be made of work transcribed from other instruments rep lists. It May be time for a Main article on Double Bass rep, as this section could get out of control pretty quick.
The rest of the article is high quality, but there are still general formatting and citation issues. I feel this is a confusing article in it's present state and I'm looking for consensus to remove the Good Article tag. I won't unilaterally take the tag off, and I would like some feedback or rebuttal if anyone thinks I'm out of line. -- Macjonesjazz
To quote my comment to
Macjonesjazz's user page:
I invite you to contribute to the double bass article yourself. This is wikipedia, anyone can edit. Instead of only listing well-founded complaints on the talk page, it would be nice if you were a little more pro-active and edited the article to improve it while explaining your actions on the talk page. Again, welcome to Wikipedia!
— ßott e siηi (talk) 01:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the reference to Jaco Pastorius where it used to refer to him in the career section as a composer. Jaco did not play the double bass so I substituted him with Dave Holland, who is a better example of a jazz bassist/composer in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.211.30 ( talk) 04:35, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
There should be a differentiation between double bass and upright bass, so we should split this page into two. Although generally the same physically, they serve a different function. Most bassists in other genres do not call it a double bass because the "double" term is irrelevant. The instrument's role and function is different. The Double Bass should retain the classical content while the content for jazz and various genres should be moved to an upright bass page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.194.236.218 ( talk) 15:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm reposting this so I don't delete the source in case someone wants to use it for something else:
"Tuning in fifths can also make the instrument louder, because the strings have more common overtones, causing the strings to [[sympathetic vibration|vibrate sympathetically]].<ref name="fifths">[http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/bassinfifthsarticle.htm ''Taking the Fifth: How Tuning in Fifths Changed My Experience Playing the Double Bass''], Dennis Masuzzo</ref>"
This is just not true. There are more common overtones on open strings, but as soon as you finger a note, this commonality disappears. The same commonality can be accomplished by playing a fifth interval on a fourths-tuned instrument. This source is a player with much more experience than I, but he is not a physicist and his understanding of the physics of sound is very limited. Conical Johnson ( talk) 05:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Conical Johnson, please listen to Bottesini: Music for Double Bass and Piano, volume 2. Joel Quarington and Hal Robinson play the Gran Duo together. Please tell me who you can hear better. It's not a engineering or mastering trick, Joel plays in fifths and sounds clearer because of it. Louder? No, probably not louder. http://www.amazon.com/Bottesini-Music-Double-Bass-Piano/dp/B0013JZ4HG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.95.134.171 ( talk) 01:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever thought Joel Quarrington sounds clearer because he might just play clearer?-- 99.181.21.113 ( talk) 07:31, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is where we will put together a list of issues and strategies, based on comments made above. Feel free to add to the list, or to add signed comments against each item. I have only started this as a template for me or others to proceed on. Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Playing and performance problems Do we need this language? From my reading of this section of the article, this is really about technical issues and use of the word problems is not constructive or open in its approach (for example weather a player stands or sits is not a problem - just a professional consideration) Also ask yourself does the violin section have a Playing and performance problems section? - Part of me feels that this is a hang over from the original Brtanica article that was some what derogatory in it's consideration of this most Noble on instruments. May be re name this section something like Playing and performance considerations? or simply Playing and performance
Statements such as (in the largest orchestras, the bass section may have as many as twelve bassists) don't make sense when you consider a large orchestra may have 20 - 30 violins Steve Abrahall ( talk) 11:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
As no one objected to my sugestions I have changed the name of the sub section. - Note section still needs work as it contains tautology
Steve Abrahall ( talk) 01:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
In the article, it jumps from jazz to bluegrass to early rock and roll. But the link is the early rhythm and blues of Louis Jordan (very popular throughout the 1940s), which did use a double bass to great effect. Bill Haley copied Jordan's basic style years later. This should probably be added in the early part of the "pop" paragraph, as Jordan is generally credited as being the bridge between jazz and rock and roll. Here's an article about his bassist: http://library.missouristate.edu/meyer/speccoll/Bartley/pages/playing.htm Badagnani 20:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I put something in. Badagnani 01:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
That is one fantastic photo! Badagnani 22:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Although it doesn't show Foster "in action." Badagnani 22:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
It looks cropped because there's some other guy muscling into the shot. Check out the slapping link I just added if you get a chance; it's extremely informative. Badagnani 23:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I am wondering about the credibility of A New History of the Double Bass saying that the double bass is the member of the violin family. Does the double bass really have the internal structure similar to that of
violin,
viola, and
cello, and different from that of
viola da gamba? And all the viol-like features of the double bass
(i.e. sloping shoulders, tuning in 4ths, etc.)-- are they merely modifications to make the instrument more convenient for playing? (i know the German bow system is not)
P.S.
All your bass are belong to us!!!!
['frαs.ti]
20:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is the "usage" change not discussed here? "Use" is better than "usage." Badagnani 23:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Because "smiley faces" are smarmy. The English language in the hands of a competent writer did not require pictograms in the many centuries before the Internet went commercial, and it does not require them now.
I created this diagram from a picture of my own bass. Anybody think it should go in the article somewhere? The image to the right is not full-size, obviously. Just click on it. — ßott e siηi (talk) 22:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I am the one who put the Jazzbass.jpg picture on the jazz section a few weeks back. It's a picture of my friend Rudy, a jazz bass player from Indonesia, well he's not really renowned internationally but quite renowned in Indonesia. I took that pic during a practice session in his studio in Bandung, Indonesia. Anyways, I think the pic is good to be put in the jazz section because it shows a playing technique that is distinctively jazz. Current porter picture, albeit historical, does not show he's playing a bass. So I would like to propose to also insert my picture in addition to the current jazz picture. My picture is not copyrighted anyway, and i think it explains the technique better. Thanks! Meutia Chaerani 10:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
He sandpapered that part of the bass, i forgot why he did it. I don't play bass myself so i can't put any opinion about that either Meutia Chaerani 22:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
How is the technique unique to jazz? And it's pretty obvious that Foster is a bass player considering that he's holding a bass. — ßott e siηi (talk) 15:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Is intonation more difficult on a double bass compared with other string instruments because of its size? It seems to me intonation as such, ie producing a note to the required pitch, is not really related to the size of the instrument, otherwise one could argue that a cello is easier to play in tune compared with a double bass because it is smaller, and a violin even easier. Yes, the positions for the fingers are further apart, so to play the same range of notes as a violin one needs to stretch their fingers and move their hand over wider distances but that is that is not intonation. LDHan 04:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The PNG file that shows the range of the double bass needs to be corrected. Double bass music is written an octave higher than it actually sounds, which causes the pitches of the four open strings in the diagram to be an octave higher than they actually are. The user that uploaded that PNG needs to add an 8va below the open strings for the diagram to be accurate.-- Markjdb 15:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, one note about the range image. It is only correct for four string basses. Five string basses, if they have a lower string, generally tune it down to a low B, which is lower than the C shown in parentheses on the image. Granted, five string basses are less common that four string ones, but it's probably worth being accurate. Lovelace ( talk) 04:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello! Recently I have looked for and found a very informative video on Youtube explaining the range of a double bass. The bassist, Jason Heath, has a 4-string Double Bass, which however, has a mechanical extension to subcontra-B (31 hz.). I realize this is very rare - or is it? The bassist also managed to play a B natural a semi-tone below the C two octaves above middle C. Coming back to my question: is the lowest string on a 5-string bass tuned more commonly to B natural or C. And, does anyone here know, own, and/or play a Double Bass with a low B-extension? -OliverKahnNr1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.52.131 ( talk) 22:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Since playing my EUB regularly now for about 9 months, I have developed a sore neck on the left side when I rotate my head to the left. i went to the doctor and he said it was due to the action of the left arm in playing the bass. He recommended an excersise with the arms thet make it look like Im doing the funky chicken dance. Anyone else had any similar problems?-- Light current 11:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Well I cant see that Im doing anything specifically wrong. What are these classes of which you speak ?-- Light current 00:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha very funky!. It works though! Try it and see!-- Light current 05:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this may be the key:
Muscle-Specific Bass Playing
When you play the bass, be careful to use only the muscles necessary to perform the specific tasks involved. As the body tires, the tendency is to overuse these muscles and to involve muscles that aren't necessary for playing. By building muscle-specific awareness, you can conserve energy, reduce the risk for injury, and allow your body to be more physically fit to play the bass.
from international bassist -- Light current 07:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Article says that DB s have always used M/C heads. Im sure I read somewhere that old DBs had pegs just like other members of violin family. Any comments?-- Light current 01:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It says that a citation is needed for the line below, but in reality this is common knowledge among bassists and will be found in most any source.
Historically, strings were made of gut, but since the 20th century steel has largely replaced gut due to its better playability.
Well, if most any source will do, why not just cite one of them? I, for one, do not use gut because of its short lifetime when exposed to moisture, not its playability. DaveCW ( talk) 08:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Sometime in my absence from wikipedia, all the images from the bow section disappeared. Anybody know what happened to them? -- ßott e siηi (talk) 02:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Some of this page (esp. the Origins and History section) appears to be copied from this web page: [2] which carries a copyright notice. I suppose it's possible that they copied it from here. Anyone know for sure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.204.170.66 ( talk • contribs)
Is that serious placing Fernando Grillo before Gary Karr and Edgar Meyer? Is he a more prominent player, with more experience and notability than those two? Badagnani 08:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Why, then, does he not only add himself in most paragraphs but he adds himself as the first name? And there is no Wikipedia article for him other than his user page. Badagnani 22:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow! He just added himself again, before Turetzky and Karr. Those players are senior in their field, with many decades of work, but I really don't think Grillo should be placed first in this list. Badagnani 01:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
He just put himself as the first name in all those sections. I don't think that's appropriate. Badagnani 22:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Do we not have the length of the instrument (in inches/centimeters) listed? Badagnani 08:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, then, we'd better at least have a "mean" for basses used for orchestral playing. As a bassist, I suppose you have access to this information? Badagnani 19:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The picture for the tuning of the bass needs to be changed to reflect its actual pitches, which would mean that the notes need to be lowered by an octave. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markjdb ( talk • contribs) 23:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Does he really belong alongside bassists like Bottesini and Simandl? Mehta is FAR better known as a conductor; the only time I've ever seen/heard him play bass was in a video of the trout quintet on youtube. His article doesn't even mention the fact that he's a double bassist...I would think that any addition to the list should be based on their contributions to the bass, instead of music in general (ie conducting). Markjdb 21:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess it's moot now... Markjdb 00:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The Bass is in no way related to the violin family and, as such, I am removing that information from the page. Kntrabssi 22:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The instrument is usually and traditionally considered a member of the violin family, and that doesn't hinge on whether it derives from the viol (or some viol). The instrument's derivation may be controversial, but its violin-family membership is not. TheScotch ( talk) 06:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I have difficulty with arguments about the 'evolution' or 'descent' of musical instruments. Instruments are creations of the human mind, not reproductive organisms. I do not claim to know about the history of the double bass, but I do know something about making and inventing instruments. When I make, modify, or invent an instrument, I usually use everything I can about everything I know to create the best instrument I can. I might, as an absurd instance, get inspiration from the shiny hardware on a clarinet (or a '57 Chevy for that matter) to design a new shiny tuning peg (or bridge or body) for a double bass. Does this make my double bass a member of the clarinet family?
At other times, I make an experimental instrument by flattening, rounding, straightening, sharpening, adding, subtracting, or otherwise subtly or radically modifying what I have made or seen before. Whether I, or someone in a large audience, gets inspiration from the experiment, and takes it further, is difficult or impossible to trace from one day to the next, let alone across centuries. I can't always pin down where my own inspiration came from, let alone someone else's.
I accept that trends and families exist in the development of instruments, and that there are many interesting and instructive accounts from history which demonstrate chains of innovative thought. I can not accept that there is proof of, or such a thing as, a pure descent for any instrument, as this would require a reconstruction of the experiences and thought processes of thousands of instrument makers through the centuries. As a logical thinker, not a historian, I regard statements such as the modern double bass has no relationship to the violin family as patently absurd. I think the many articles which claim to have certain knowledge of the evolution of musical instruments only degrade the overall quality of Wikipedia. DaveCW ( talk) 09:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In any case, we as editors are not allowed "original research" here; Wikipedia is obliged to go with what the most reputable sources say, and this is what Grove says about the subject of this section (membership in the violin family in contradistinction to derivation): "...the Double bass is also usually considered to be a member of the violin family though in some of its features – all explicable in terms of the practicalities of playing such a large instrument – the influence of the Viol family is apparent: it is tuned in 4ths rather than 5ths, historically had a variable number of strings and normally has sloping shoulders and a flat back that is ‘broken’ so that the upper section slopes inward towards the neck...." TheScotch ( talk) 06:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with DaveCW, talking about 'descent' is strange, and the double bass was probably created using elements of both the violin and the viol. I do not pretend to be an expert, but as I understand it this is basically what Paul Brun himself says. Here is an excerpt from his book: In effect, neither the cello nor the double bass are in any way derived from instruments they simply superseded. The offshoots of the bass violin, both of these instruments have been consistently in use from their inception in the late 17th Century to our own time. Admittedly, as a result of the demise of the viol family, a number of contrabass viols were converted into double basses at some point in history. But it is our view that the interpretation of the particular point should not lead to unsubstantiated generalizations, nor should it constitute an article of religion, to be accepted with unquestioning faith. TheScotch, the double bass is tuned in 5ths as well (although it is admittedly less common); the bass violin had three strings, showing that historically there was some variability in the violin family as well; and the wikipedia article itself states that the shape of the double bass can vary. Furthermore, the affirmation that The double bass is generally regarded as the only modern descendant of the viola da gamba family of instruments is debatable: it is just one body of opinion, and implying that it is the most reputable is questionable. I think that this article might be biased in favour of one body of opinion and therefore might infringe on Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Patrick59 ( talk) 00:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a mistake in the terminology: a " bass violin" is actually a cello ancestor and not a double bass. -- Shutterfreak ( talk) 10:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
In order to trim the size down a bit, should we just list repetoire, instead of giving a small description about quintets, concertos and such? Kntrabssi 09:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't many German orchestras use a five-string double bass? This seems as if it might be important enough to be mentioned in the main article. Grover cleveland 16:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Just talking to an American jazz bass player with a five-sring (and examining her instrument) last Thursday. The low string is B, a perfect fourth below the normal low E. (She does have an orchestra background too. She said her fingerboard is wider to accommodate the extra string, but not so wide that she doesn't have to bow much more carefully than she would on a four string to avoid hitting the wrong string.) The logic of C, though, is that many old orchestra scores give only one part for cellos and basses, and where the part goes below E it isn't clear what the bass is supposed to do (drop out? jump up an octave here? jump up an octave a bit before?). The five-string is one solution; an extension is another. (Saw plenty of instruments with extensions at a bass conference a month ago.)
TheScotch (
talk)
02:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Listen Badagnani 00:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
"The wire wrapping is gold or silver in quality bows..."
I know very little about bow or instrument construction, but I question this statement. If something is "gold or silver" it is usually for decorative and/or price-inflating purposes, not for "quality" purposes. I highly doubt that there is some particular tonal or structural quality shared by gold and silver, but not shared by any other (cheaper) metal. -- 74.229.197.48 01:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
In light of a severe lack of references, I have taken this article to Good Article review. -- Lenin and McCarthy | ( Complain here) 19:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The double ASS is generally & possibly mistakenly, regarded as the only modern descendant of the viola da gamba family of instruments, a family which originated in Europe in the 15th century, and as such it has been described as a "bass viol."
I figured I had better change that...
71.74.13.103 09:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Ray Brown is "known for his virtuosic bowing technique"? "the Fritz Kreisler of jazz double bass playing"? If ever a citation was needed, it's here. Wikipedia's page on him doesn't use the words "arco" or "bow" anywhere. I'm a huge fan of Ray Brown and don't remember ever having heard him play arco. http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608001296/Ray-Brown.html tells us that "His arco {bow} technique is excellent, though he seldom reveals it. " I got excited watching a YouTube video of the Oscar Peterson trio where Brown picks up a bow... and after using it to check his tuning he just puts it down again. In a jazz bass method book I have by him, there is a picture of him using a German bow, but again, I have yet to actually *hear* him use one. If there are a few examples out there, I'd love to hear them, but as reputedly the most recorded musician in history (because of all of his studio work), there's not nearly enough recorded arco work from him to justify the claim that he's "known for his virtuosic bowing technique." Bobdc 21:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobdc ( talk • contribs) 20:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | Ray Brown, known for his virtuosic bowing technique, has been called "the Fritz Kreisler of jazz double bass playing." | ” |
Badagnani 00:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that a certain website has basically plagarised the whole thing. They've just added a few things by themselves. Please do something about it! http://www.jazzdoublebass.com/articles/article.php?id=MQ== —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaunwhim2 ( talk • contribs) 05:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Discussion of the infobox that just showed up is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Instruments. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 23:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a music clip from the German Bottesini that we could use as a listening clip, so users could hear what a bass sounds like? Also, I'm sure there are many freely available jazz/pizzicato sound clips? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.127.171 ( talk) 19:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I changed the fingerings image, because I believed the other one was a bad example. Also, it was a poor image (taken of music with camera). So, I uploaded a new one with an excerpt of Tchaikovsky and added the fingerings with lilypond. What do y'all think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael miceli ( talk • contribs) 07:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Re: "I seriously doubt that many professional players even bother marking them in their parts.":
I think you assume too much. Cellists spend oodles of time deliberating about fingerings, and I certainly marked fingerings in my cello parts when I played in orchestra. Violin playing doesn't involve nearly as much shifting as cello playing, but bass playing involves more. It's true that professional orchestral parts aren't generally published with fingering, but fingering is certainly a valid topic for this thread; it's really only a question of where it should go and whether the way it's presented is misleading. TheScotch ( talk) 18:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to differentiate bowing and fingering here. Scores and parts do generally include bowing. This is often changed by the conductor or section leader, and the conductor or section leader usually sees to it that bowing is consistent within a section. Fingering is rarely included in scores and parts, and players generally work this out for themselves individually--fingerings are not usually dictated to them by the conductor or section leader. TheScotch ( talk) 06:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Image:Bill Haley and the Comets.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit removed from the opening sentence the terms bass violin, bass fiddle, and bull fiddle on the ground that "no one calls the bass, bass violin or bass fiddle. Even if they do, it's innacurate because the bass descends from the viol." I restored the terms, remarking, "Bass violin is actually a very common term & whatever its lineage, the instrument is considered part of violin family. Fiddle is the British term for violin. Not familiar w/bull fiddle."
In support of my restoration I now proffer this citation from the fourth edition of the American Heritage English Dictionary: "The double bass, usually considered a member of the violin family [my emphasis], is tuned in fourths and has the sloping shoulders and flat back characteristic of the viols. It has a deep range, going as low as three octaves below middle C. Also called bass fiddle [ditto], bass viol, bull fiddle [ditto], contrabass, string bass." TheScotch ( talk) 06:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm in full support for eliminating the terms bass violin and bass fiddle. Just because people refer to the instrument as that, does not mean it is correct. Dictionaries are not always right either, this is coming from an avid and active bass player pursuing a career in the field. I would rather not give them such incorrect names to such a wonderful instrument, I see it as an insult. Although I see the integrity of this page to be flawed in many areas, I would like to see the name correct amongst all things.
Also as opposed to what has been stated above, the bass is not a member of the violin family. Violins are tuned in fifths, the bass is tuned in fourths. The bass also has sloped shoulders characteristic to the viol family, for the most part at least, since all string instruments have large amounts of variation even within their instrument category. The violin family however have rounded shoulders. Still, the term bass viol wouldn't even be correct, since it has long since strayed away from that class. It no longer has frets like the viol family does. The bass is very much it's own, unique instrument. Neither viol, nor violin.
Thus, I beg that bass violin and bass fiddle be removed from the alternative names for the instrument. Let us not dumb down society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazkev92 ( talk • contribs) 04:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The discussion here seems to reflect a shocking ignorance of language and how it works, as well as the purposes of an encyclopedia. Words mean what people use them to mean. Bass fiddle, bass violin, and bull fiddle are entirely legitimate and commonly used terms for the instrument, especially in certain cultural circle. To label them "inaccurant," "incorrect," "ignorant," "undignified," reflect blatant prejudice, as well as a misunderstanding of language, of encyclopedias, and of the notion of ignorance, and, more importantly a misunderstanding of the principle of neutral point of view. People who come to an encyclopedia looking for basic information on topics should at the very least have access to information regarding various terms used for things that are covered. I am going to restore all the alternative names and I hope that there will be a discussion based on the values of information and language rather than that of blatant prejudice. Acsenray ( talk) 15:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, it should be possible to FIND information in Wikipedia. A redneck like me, desiring to become less ignorant, might only know the instrument as a 'bass fiddle' and would therefore do a search on that term. Should Wikipedia return no results? -- 68.144.70.5 ( talk) 17:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I believe that we should set a high standard for the external links section (for the Wikipedia guidelines on External Links, see WP:EL) Ideally, the External Links should be non-profit, educational or scholarly websites with a variety of quality resources and information on the topic. Along with other editors, I always remove advertising websites from the EL section, whether they are major online retailers or small indie instrument makers. However, with the Bluegrass webpage now in the EL section, we have a "grey zone." The bluegrass webpage does have resources on playing double bass. However it also has a large advertising sidebar on the left-hand side of the page, and a number of smaller "business card"-sized advertisements along the right side. I think that there are enough high quality non-profit, non-commercial websites out there that we should remove website links that have significant amounts of advertising......................................Is the Bluegrass webpage a non-profit webpage that has advertising just to cover its costs, or is it an advertising webpage that uses bluegrass content to draw webhits and make money? We don't know. But I think that we should err on the side of caution, and on the side of setting a high standard for the External Links section. Comments? OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 19:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I have run across this issue with other articles' links and could use more guidance in the form of more defined standards and policy. -- 68.144.70.5 ( talk) 17:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
correct me if im wrong, but isnt the double bass also used in many black, death, and symphonic metal songs? Chipthief00 ( talk) 16:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I have started a new wikiproject, WikiProject Stringed Instruments. I am looking for 2 other coordinators to help it get started. Apply on my talk page by answering the following questions.
1. Edit count, how long you have been active on Wikipedia.
2. How often you edit string-related articles. (Scale of 1-10)
3. What you hope to accomplish if made coordinator.
Please post by March 1, 2009.
ṜedMarkViolinist Drop me a line 19:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)