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This section does not make sense because there doesn't appear to any real distinction between the two feasts. JPSheridan 01:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The two feasts are from two different religions. Roman Catholicism and Easter Orthodox are two different churches and their feast days are related but celebrated by different people. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism. Lakeroese ( talk) 14:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This article requires much faith because it offers virtually no verification. In addition words like "often" and "some" are not acceptable by Wikipedia standards unless the texts are adequately verified. -- Thomaq ( talk) 13:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
You seem to prefer a narrow interpretation. In my view, the Wikipedia policy applies here in a broad sense, because at issue are repeated small phrases attached to the beginning of a statement and the artificial creation of facts through weasel words. Thus, there is no difference between "some experts", "some argue that" and: "some places" or, some "churches". But this is a minor issue, as I mentioned above. I am not going to waste our time over it. The main problem is the virtual absence of verification. -- Thomaq ( talk) 08:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Do the Orthodox churches believe that Mary actually died - as is implied in the article's introduction? Anglicanus ( talk) 14:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
I have added the Greek terminus from Proseychetarion.-- Sergius-eu ( talk) 01:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
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I am working on articles that link to Old Style and New Style dates because that article is now primarily about the changes in Great Britain and its colonies, to update them to use Adoption of the Gregorian calendar, which takes a worldwide view and is more appropriate for Greek Orthodox articles. However I am confused by this article because it says 'August 15 (August 28 New Style for those following the Julian Calendar)'. The problem is that the Julian Calendar is generally regarded as 'Old Style' and the Gregorian Calendar as 'New Style'. Have I misunderstood? or has this article been vandalised? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 22:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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This article simply doesn't make sense. If I try to sum up what it says, I cannot, because I'm left with a nonsensical core statement. Since most of it is unsourced, I don't get the benefit of checking whether there might be some fine nuances left out here that may explain the obvious lack of logic.
In the first sentence of the section Dormition fast, I found the following redundancy:
Orthodox and Eastern Catholics fast from red meat, poultry, meat products, dairy products (eggs and milk products), fish, oil, and wine.
Since "red meat" is a subcategory of "meat products", I don't think it should be here. Could anyone please tell me if I'm wrong? (Edit: I realized I missed "poultry" in that category as well. Sorry about that. Anyway, Elizium23 corrected me below.)-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 19:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The "[l]iturgy" section begins with the following sentence, which I fixed up a bit (sorry to boast):
The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which is an Oriental Orthodox Church, celebrates the Feast of Dormition on August 15 with great importance, as that day is the national independence day of India.
It doesn't have a subsection, and feels somewhat out of place to me. Could anyone please tell me if I'm wrong?-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 14:17, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
The article says, "The events of the Dormition of the Virgin and her burial are dealt with in several known apocrypha: "Tale of the Dormition of the Virgin" by Pseudo-John the Theologian (emerged in the mid-5th century or later),[10]. . . ." The footnote goes to the Greek edition by Tischendorf, but I have that book and I have found no such date as mid-5th century given by Tischendorf. This work is in the standard set, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translated into English. Here is what that standard edition says on date:
in volume 8 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, "The Account of St. John the Theologian
OF THE FALLING ASLEEP OF THE HOLY MOTHER OF GOD," in "The Translator's Introductory Notice." I am consulting the Accordance Bible Software edition of the Ante-Nicene Fathers & unfortunately, it does not seem to provide page numbers.
I think it is probably correct to say that a feast was not celebrated before the 5th century, but that cannot be proven. So it is best deleted; also similar negatives. We have only a tiny sample of recordings of what happened in early times. Suppose someone says, "The yo-yo did not exist before the 7th century." How could you know that? Do you have video recordings of all places on earth in all former centuries, inside & outside of stuctures? How would you know that an ancient Chinese boy named Sum Sing Wing Wong didn't have a yo-yo in Lower Slobovia? How could anybody know that some feast was not celebrated in the 2nd century? Do we have video tapes of all cities, towns & villages in the Roman empire & among the Parthians? How would we know what feast St Thomas celebrated in India in the first century? Sweeping denials, negative statements should not be used when they are impossible to prove or find reliable sources. The very nature of their unprovability means that a modern source that says it is not reliable. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 04:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC))
Wrong. You can not invalidate sources because they do not fit your chosen narrative. Dimadick ( talk) 11:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Although Tischendorf's edition is primary source, it should be read in Greek & English before editing this article on matters which come out of Tischendorf. That way the secondary source used can be checked for reliability. For example, if a 2ndary source entitles something as "The tale of," yet Tischedorf never used such a word, neither is the Latin title thus translatable, neither is there a Greek manuscript using a word that means "tale," the 2ndary source is unreliable. Tischendorf titles the chapter of his book: "V. IOANNIS: Liber de Dormitoine Mariae": "Liber" = book, not tale. Tischendorf's Greek edition is available via Amazon cheap (I own it), & it is also accessable via Archive.org at https://archive.org/details/apocalypsesapocr02tiscuoft/page/94/mode/2up The English is translated also & on line at https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 04:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC))
Greetings!
I should like to challenge your reversion of my edit.
You restored Category:Entering heaven alive. I had removed this because, as the article states, "Mary had been buried in Gethsemane ... Christ had taken her body to heaven after three days". Since there is a separate article for the Assumption of Mary, this article (redundant to the latter, IMHO) is about the Eastern feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God, and since that the burial narrative is enshrined in the propers of the feast in, at least, the Byzantine Rite, and also that this article's section on the Maronite Church suggests that they (who all are in communion with Rome) likewise enshrine it liturgically, and since I believe that the narrative is believed by all Eastern Churches, methinks that I appropriately removed that category. I also note that Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite use the same propers as do Eastern Orthodox, for which I am providing this link to a Byzantine Catholic English language text of the propers for 15 August. I further note that this article states "The Catholic doctrine of the Assumption covers Mary's bodily movement to heaven, but the dogmatic definition avoids saying whether she was dead or alive at that point", so the belief in Mary's death is quite acceptable for Roman Catholics to hold. Unfortunately, I cannot document, at least without considerable effort, that other Eastern Churches share the death followed by resurrection story, although, for what little it is worth, by personal conversations I've learned that the Coptic Orthodox do.
So please revert, or allow me to revert without perception of an editing war, your reversion.
I thank you.
Sincerely,
Arminden, you can't entirely remove all references to the Catholic part-"alternative", much as you would like to. Some appropriate wording & links are needed to help the reader. If you don['t do it, I will have to. Johnbod ( talk) 17:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I found this:
I have lots of problems with this intro and with the listed 13 languages.
The article seems to suggest that Greek was the language in which this concept was first conceived of and circulated, and that fragments in two Aramaic dialects or languages are the oldest ones which have survived. So,
Honestly, is there a need for this section, as it is now, arbitrary and unsourced? Arminden ( talk) 21:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
They are all supposed, in Orthodoxy, to have suddenly, miraculously appeared at the empty tomb of Mary? I never heard this one. Who is teaching it, why, and how long? Room for more info here. 24.4.136.172 ( talk) 04:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The text states Mary died 11 years after Jesus, in AD 41. If Jesus died at age 33 (AD 33), shouldn't Mary's death have been in AD 44? 98.116.163.246 ( talk) 15:26, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 15, 2008, August 28, 2008, August 15, 2009, August 28, 2009, August 15, 2010, August 28, 2010, and August 28, 2011. |
This section does not make sense because there doesn't appear to any real distinction between the two feasts. JPSheridan 01:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The two feasts are from two different religions. Roman Catholicism and Easter Orthodox are two different churches and their feast days are related but celebrated by different people. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism. Lakeroese ( talk) 14:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This article requires much faith because it offers virtually no verification. In addition words like "often" and "some" are not acceptable by Wikipedia standards unless the texts are adequately verified. -- Thomaq ( talk) 13:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
You seem to prefer a narrow interpretation. In my view, the Wikipedia policy applies here in a broad sense, because at issue are repeated small phrases attached to the beginning of a statement and the artificial creation of facts through weasel words. Thus, there is no difference between "some experts", "some argue that" and: "some places" or, some "churches". But this is a minor issue, as I mentioned above. I am not going to waste our time over it. The main problem is the virtual absence of verification. -- Thomaq ( talk) 08:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Do the Orthodox churches believe that Mary actually died - as is implied in the article's introduction? Anglicanus ( talk) 14:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
I have added the Greek terminus from Proseychetarion.-- Sergius-eu ( talk) 01:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I am working on articles that link to Old Style and New Style dates because that article is now primarily about the changes in Great Britain and its colonies, to update them to use Adoption of the Gregorian calendar, which takes a worldwide view and is more appropriate for Greek Orthodox articles. However I am confused by this article because it says 'August 15 (August 28 New Style for those following the Julian Calendar)'. The problem is that the Julian Calendar is generally regarded as 'Old Style' and the Gregorian Calendar as 'New Style'. Have I misunderstood? or has this article been vandalised? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 22:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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This article simply doesn't make sense. If I try to sum up what it says, I cannot, because I'm left with a nonsensical core statement. Since most of it is unsourced, I don't get the benefit of checking whether there might be some fine nuances left out here that may explain the obvious lack of logic.
In the first sentence of the section Dormition fast, I found the following redundancy:
Orthodox and Eastern Catholics fast from red meat, poultry, meat products, dairy products (eggs and milk products), fish, oil, and wine.
Since "red meat" is a subcategory of "meat products", I don't think it should be here. Could anyone please tell me if I'm wrong? (Edit: I realized I missed "poultry" in that category as well. Sorry about that. Anyway, Elizium23 corrected me below.)-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 19:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The "[l]iturgy" section begins with the following sentence, which I fixed up a bit (sorry to boast):
The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which is an Oriental Orthodox Church, celebrates the Feast of Dormition on August 15 with great importance, as that day is the national independence day of India.
It doesn't have a subsection, and feels somewhat out of place to me. Could anyone please tell me if I'm wrong?-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 14:17, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
The article says, "The events of the Dormition of the Virgin and her burial are dealt with in several known apocrypha: "Tale of the Dormition of the Virgin" by Pseudo-John the Theologian (emerged in the mid-5th century or later),[10]. . . ." The footnote goes to the Greek edition by Tischendorf, but I have that book and I have found no such date as mid-5th century given by Tischendorf. This work is in the standard set, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translated into English. Here is what that standard edition says on date:
in volume 8 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, "The Account of St. John the Theologian
OF THE FALLING ASLEEP OF THE HOLY MOTHER OF GOD," in "The Translator's Introductory Notice." I am consulting the Accordance Bible Software edition of the Ante-Nicene Fathers & unfortunately, it does not seem to provide page numbers.
I think it is probably correct to say that a feast was not celebrated before the 5th century, but that cannot be proven. So it is best deleted; also similar negatives. We have only a tiny sample of recordings of what happened in early times. Suppose someone says, "The yo-yo did not exist before the 7th century." How could you know that? Do you have video recordings of all places on earth in all former centuries, inside & outside of stuctures? How would you know that an ancient Chinese boy named Sum Sing Wing Wong didn't have a yo-yo in Lower Slobovia? How could anybody know that some feast was not celebrated in the 2nd century? Do we have video tapes of all cities, towns & villages in the Roman empire & among the Parthians? How would we know what feast St Thomas celebrated in India in the first century? Sweeping denials, negative statements should not be used when they are impossible to prove or find reliable sources. The very nature of their unprovability means that a modern source that says it is not reliable. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 04:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC))
Wrong. You can not invalidate sources because they do not fit your chosen narrative. Dimadick ( talk) 11:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Although Tischendorf's edition is primary source, it should be read in Greek & English before editing this article on matters which come out of Tischendorf. That way the secondary source used can be checked for reliability. For example, if a 2ndary source entitles something as "The tale of," yet Tischedorf never used such a word, neither is the Latin title thus translatable, neither is there a Greek manuscript using a word that means "tale," the 2ndary source is unreliable. Tischendorf titles the chapter of his book: "V. IOANNIS: Liber de Dormitoine Mariae": "Liber" = book, not tale. Tischendorf's Greek edition is available via Amazon cheap (I own it), & it is also accessable via Archive.org at https://archive.org/details/apocalypsesapocr02tiscuoft/page/94/mode/2up The English is translated also & on line at https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 04:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC))
Greetings!
I should like to challenge your reversion of my edit.
You restored Category:Entering heaven alive. I had removed this because, as the article states, "Mary had been buried in Gethsemane ... Christ had taken her body to heaven after three days". Since there is a separate article for the Assumption of Mary, this article (redundant to the latter, IMHO) is about the Eastern feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God, and since that the burial narrative is enshrined in the propers of the feast in, at least, the Byzantine Rite, and also that this article's section on the Maronite Church suggests that they (who all are in communion with Rome) likewise enshrine it liturgically, and since I believe that the narrative is believed by all Eastern Churches, methinks that I appropriately removed that category. I also note that Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite use the same propers as do Eastern Orthodox, for which I am providing this link to a Byzantine Catholic English language text of the propers for 15 August. I further note that this article states "The Catholic doctrine of the Assumption covers Mary's bodily movement to heaven, but the dogmatic definition avoids saying whether she was dead or alive at that point", so the belief in Mary's death is quite acceptable for Roman Catholics to hold. Unfortunately, I cannot document, at least without considerable effort, that other Eastern Churches share the death followed by resurrection story, although, for what little it is worth, by personal conversations I've learned that the Coptic Orthodox do.
So please revert, or allow me to revert without perception of an editing war, your reversion.
I thank you.
Sincerely,
Arminden, you can't entirely remove all references to the Catholic part-"alternative", much as you would like to. Some appropriate wording & links are needed to help the reader. If you don['t do it, I will have to. Johnbod ( talk) 17:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I found this:
I have lots of problems with this intro and with the listed 13 languages.
The article seems to suggest that Greek was the language in which this concept was first conceived of and circulated, and that fragments in two Aramaic dialects or languages are the oldest ones which have survived. So,
Honestly, is there a need for this section, as it is now, arbitrary and unsourced? Arminden ( talk) 21:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
They are all supposed, in Orthodoxy, to have suddenly, miraculously appeared at the empty tomb of Mary? I never heard this one. Who is teaching it, why, and how long? Room for more info here. 24.4.136.172 ( talk) 04:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The text states Mary died 11 years after Jesus, in AD 41. If Jesus died at age 33 (AD 33), shouldn't Mary's death have been in AD 44? 98.116.163.246 ( talk) 15:26, 7 April 2023 (UTC)