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I propose that the article Dorje Shugden controversy be merged into the article Dorje Shugden. I am making this proposal as there is considerable overlap in the contents of these two articles and because the Dorje Shugden controversy cannot properly be explained or understood without context of the (various) explanations of the origin, history, and nature of this protector deity.
In discussing this merger proposal, please follow proper decorum and standard talk page guidelines, which include staying focused on the content, not on the involved editors, using threaded discussion formatting, not biting newcomers, and being clear and concise.
Chris Fynn ( talk) 18:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The issue with merging them is that they are two different things. The controversy involves peoples criticisms and how the controversy arose, along with aspects regarding the ban. Dorje Shugden is an article about the deity and how he functions. Prasangika37 ( talk) 11:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
(Please place any discussion on the merger proposal in this section. If you simply want to indicate support or opposition , please use the above section.)
@
Beeflin: - Thanks for your comment above. I'm just proposing merging the content of the two articles. This should result in an article about as objective as the contents of the current articles are now. If possible, I will try to get an experienced neutral editor to make the merger. After the merger, anyone can then edit the combined article to improve its objectivity if they feel that is lacking. (I hope it will prove easier for editors to come up with one objective article that everyone concerned can live with, than it has been with two.)
I've notified everyone who has edited these articles over the last 6 months or so (with the exception of blocked users and those editing with only an IP address) of this merger proposal - so hopefully we can get enough feedback within a couple of weeks or so to decide whether or not this merger proposal should go ahead.
Chris Fynn ( talk) 08:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Prasangika37: One of the previous discussions you link to was a proposal to delete the article, the other was a proposal to move it to a new name. Neither was a merger proposal and neither came from me. As to whether Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden controversy are separable or not - earlier I did suggest that this article be limited to the recent controversy and go back only to the time or the publication of Zeme Rinpoche's book or to the time of the Dalai Lama first speaking out against this practice and subsequent events. But when I suggested that others said it needs to cover things back to the time of the 13th Dalai Lama and Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo - or even to the time of the 5th Dalai Lama because there is good evidence that there has always been some controversy surrounding Dorje Shugden. That being the case, how do you leave out anything about controversy out of this article and how do you leave discussion of the nature and function of Shugden out of the other? At least one side argues that the nature of Shugden is at the basis of the argument for the ban or continued worship of Shugden. The prohibition and subsequent protests are hard to understand without historical context. It seems to me most people think the two things (the deity and the controversy) are completely intertwined. If that is the case, they can't really be separated and when there are two articles there will always be a lot of overlap. Chris Fynn ( talk) 13:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
@ ChrisGualtieri:Noone suggested the controversy part be trimmed, other than the overlapping content. VictoriaGrayson ( talk) 01:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: Of course a stable consensus would be nice — but that has never really happened with either article - and I suspect one could wait a very long time for that eventuality. Possibly it might be easier to reach a stable consensus for a single article, rather than two? — But I'm probably dreaming. Chris Fynn ( talk) 18:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Your point about the Rushdie book as a more cogent argument. What irritated me was the tl;dr tone of some of the above posts (including yours) that is just the same sort of tendentious arguments I used to hear from the Moonies and Hare Krishnas back when I was in college. Been there, done that. I have no interest in entering into debates with people who have no sincere interest in creating a balanced article, simply view WP as a platform for their own POV pushing and encourage sanitizing/whitewashing the less-then-savory aspects of their organization. Montanabw (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Let's focus on content, people. NPOV is a pillar and it is a waste of time and bandwidth to endlessly debate the general concept or past edits. The applicable action here is simple WP:BRD. If an addition is especially likely to be controversial, then "D" (discuss) first. If we aren't proposing a specific edit or set of edits, then drop the stick. Montanabw (talk) 01:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Prasangika37 and Essence 37 keep changing the lead, introducing several errors:
Lastly, the lead was already very favorable to the NKT POV resulting in objections from CFynn. VictoriaGrayson Talk 21:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Someone included again the unpublished paper by Ursula Bernis. Her paper was rejected by an academic publisher for publication after the expertise by two researchers were sought. Therefore her unpublished work should not be used for Wikipedia and especially not for such a controversial topic. See WP:RS . I deleted therefore the text and the quote by her. Waschi ( talk) 00:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
A series of articles on the topic, including an interview with the late brother of the Dalai Lama: http://www.tricycle.com/blog/dorje-shugden-deity-or-demon?page=24 For future research. Montanabw (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
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I (an atheist, raised as a Christian) find this article odd. My (quite likely mistaken) view of Buddhism was that it is concerned with freeing people from attachment, and helping them to attain enlightenment, and that it is not concerned with beliefs in imaginary beings, angels, devils, evil spirits, bogeymen, and suchlike. But this article is about what appears to me to be an imaginary being. Do most Buddhists believe in the existence of Dorje Shugden? If they do, it needs to be stated in the article. Maybe it's only Tibetan Buddhists, or some of them, who believe in its existence – it still needs to be explained in the article. As it stands, the article is written as if Dorje Shugden is accepted by all Buddhists are a real being, without any evidence for this belief. Maproom ( talk) 22:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dorje Shugden article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
Go to the Bottom for New Discussions |
I propose that the article Dorje Shugden controversy be merged into the article Dorje Shugden. I am making this proposal as there is considerable overlap in the contents of these two articles and because the Dorje Shugden controversy cannot properly be explained or understood without context of the (various) explanations of the origin, history, and nature of this protector deity.
In discussing this merger proposal, please follow proper decorum and standard talk page guidelines, which include staying focused on the content, not on the involved editors, using threaded discussion formatting, not biting newcomers, and being clear and concise.
Chris Fynn ( talk) 18:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The issue with merging them is that they are two different things. The controversy involves peoples criticisms and how the controversy arose, along with aspects regarding the ban. Dorje Shugden is an article about the deity and how he functions. Prasangika37 ( talk) 11:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
(Please place any discussion on the merger proposal in this section. If you simply want to indicate support or opposition , please use the above section.)
@
Beeflin: - Thanks for your comment above. I'm just proposing merging the content of the two articles. This should result in an article about as objective as the contents of the current articles are now. If possible, I will try to get an experienced neutral editor to make the merger. After the merger, anyone can then edit the combined article to improve its objectivity if they feel that is lacking. (I hope it will prove easier for editors to come up with one objective article that everyone concerned can live with, than it has been with two.)
I've notified everyone who has edited these articles over the last 6 months or so (with the exception of blocked users and those editing with only an IP address) of this merger proposal - so hopefully we can get enough feedback within a couple of weeks or so to decide whether or not this merger proposal should go ahead.
Chris Fynn ( talk) 08:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Prasangika37: One of the previous discussions you link to was a proposal to delete the article, the other was a proposal to move it to a new name. Neither was a merger proposal and neither came from me. As to whether Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden controversy are separable or not - earlier I did suggest that this article be limited to the recent controversy and go back only to the time or the publication of Zeme Rinpoche's book or to the time of the Dalai Lama first speaking out against this practice and subsequent events. But when I suggested that others said it needs to cover things back to the time of the 13th Dalai Lama and Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo - or even to the time of the 5th Dalai Lama because there is good evidence that there has always been some controversy surrounding Dorje Shugden. That being the case, how do you leave out anything about controversy out of this article and how do you leave discussion of the nature and function of Shugden out of the other? At least one side argues that the nature of Shugden is at the basis of the argument for the ban or continued worship of Shugden. The prohibition and subsequent protests are hard to understand without historical context. It seems to me most people think the two things (the deity and the controversy) are completely intertwined. If that is the case, they can't really be separated and when there are two articles there will always be a lot of overlap. Chris Fynn ( talk) 13:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
@ ChrisGualtieri:Noone suggested the controversy part be trimmed, other than the overlapping content. VictoriaGrayson ( talk) 01:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: Of course a stable consensus would be nice — but that has never really happened with either article - and I suspect one could wait a very long time for that eventuality. Possibly it might be easier to reach a stable consensus for a single article, rather than two? — But I'm probably dreaming. Chris Fynn ( talk) 18:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Your point about the Rushdie book as a more cogent argument. What irritated me was the tl;dr tone of some of the above posts (including yours) that is just the same sort of tendentious arguments I used to hear from the Moonies and Hare Krishnas back when I was in college. Been there, done that. I have no interest in entering into debates with people who have no sincere interest in creating a balanced article, simply view WP as a platform for their own POV pushing and encourage sanitizing/whitewashing the less-then-savory aspects of their organization. Montanabw (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Let's focus on content, people. NPOV is a pillar and it is a waste of time and bandwidth to endlessly debate the general concept or past edits. The applicable action here is simple WP:BRD. If an addition is especially likely to be controversial, then "D" (discuss) first. If we aren't proposing a specific edit or set of edits, then drop the stick. Montanabw (talk) 01:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Prasangika37 and Essence 37 keep changing the lead, introducing several errors:
Lastly, the lead was already very favorable to the NKT POV resulting in objections from CFynn. VictoriaGrayson Talk 21:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Someone included again the unpublished paper by Ursula Bernis. Her paper was rejected by an academic publisher for publication after the expertise by two researchers were sought. Therefore her unpublished work should not be used for Wikipedia and especially not for such a controversial topic. See WP:RS . I deleted therefore the text and the quote by her. Waschi ( talk) 00:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
A series of articles on the topic, including an interview with the late brother of the Dalai Lama: http://www.tricycle.com/blog/dorje-shugden-deity-or-demon?page=24 For future research. Montanabw (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
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I (an atheist, raised as a Christian) find this article odd. My (quite likely mistaken) view of Buddhism was that it is concerned with freeing people from attachment, and helping them to attain enlightenment, and that it is not concerned with beliefs in imaginary beings, angels, devils, evil spirits, bogeymen, and suchlike. But this article is about what appears to me to be an imaginary being. Do most Buddhists believe in the existence of Dorje Shugden? If they do, it needs to be stated in the article. Maybe it's only Tibetan Buddhists, or some of them, who believe in its existence – it still needs to be explained in the article. As it stands, the article is written as if Dorje Shugden is accepted by all Buddhists are a real being, without any evidence for this belief. Maproom ( talk) 22:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)