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Since the Dorians did not play the guitar (!) the 'guitar chord' terminology to refer to the Dorian mode seems rather out of place. I've changed it. Paul
These two articles essentially belong together at Dorian, supporting one another until some subsection is overwhelmingly complicated and might stand on its own, represented at the main article by a concise paragraph. Perhaps there are three subsections to the "Dorian invasions" part:
If you see other natural subdivisions, please insert them, and then let's get going with this interesting big article. -- Wetman 06:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
hola me llamo hola —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.244.224.114 ( talk) 02:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Wetman: Yes your revision of my edit is better. Can you be more specific what you mean by "late mythology"? Also I don't quite know how to incorporate the notion that the common ancestry of the Dorians, Ionians, and Aetolians (all "descendants" of Hellen), is more than mere "mythology" and probably represents and the early beginnings of an ethnological theory. Paul August ☎ 20:14, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
There is about the same evidence for the "Dorian Invasion" and the "Return of the Heracleidae". The distinction made in the present text is Mueller's dogmatism. Don't see how to fix it right now, but shall return Septentrionalis 18:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
If you'll leave Mūller aside, and concentrate instead on the theme of return of the Heracleidae as it is expressed in the written myths themselves, you'll really improve this article. -- Wetman 19:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure this belongs here either; but I agree it belongs somewhere; so I'm adding it to this talkpage so it doesn't just disappear.
Septentrionalis 20:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Dorian was also a sacret mage from the guild named rugcutters -
- Removed the above, seemed off-topic
Meersan 20:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Dorian is a first name, where's the disambiguation?? Shandris the azylean 19:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You'd think this basic bit of information would be included somewhere in the beginning of the article... Instead, only one gets clues and hints much further along. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tullie ( talk • contribs) 22:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
I would like to reiterate the concerns noted above. The "when" might even merit its own subsection. The Jackal God 20:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
So how come the dorians had no written language if they had been part of Greece for a long time? And how come they introduced iron weapons, hithertho not found in Greece? 132.150.9.210 ( talk) 15:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
That was brought there from the middle east. It never existed among the Dorians, also, the sources are all wrong.
What the Dorians brought was boy-love as a publicly recognized and honorable institution. The Dorians strictly regulated the love relationship between man and boy and treated it as a very important arrangement very publicly with honorable earnestness under the protection of the family, society, the state, and religion. . . . In Sparta, Crete, and Thebes. . . . the education of the ruling class, resting on pederasty, [was directed towards] arete and manly virtue, which principally manifested itself in war. [1]
Might I suggest that you make a greater effort to assume good faith? I don't think your suspicion of vandalism is at all justified. Not everyone who edits a Wikipedia article has some devious ulterior agenda, believe it or not.
If what you say is accurate, though, the original source was misleading, Bethe never actually argued for what the quote might imply, and you are right to remove it. FilipeS ( talk) 17:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
References
Shouldn't this article exist under the name Dorians? All the ethnic group/tribe-related articles are titled with the name of the people, not the adjective which refers to them. See Greeks, Ionians, Aeolians, Achaeans etc - Sthenel 11:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it me, or does this section sound a tad non-NPOV?... FilipeS 15:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I have read all comments by “Dave” and he does not seem to be NPOV. One can’t claim with certainty viewpoints that are debated among modern scholars. 2A02:A445:79E2:1:F8E9:4B4A:2FF9:EDFB ( talk) 00:41, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Dorus 1 is the man who called the Dorians (one of the main Hellenic groups) after himself. He was son of Hellen 1, son of Deucalion 1, the man who survived the Flood. His mother was Orseis, one of the NYMPHS. His brothers, Aeolus 1 and Xuthus 1, are also well known. Dorus 1's children are Aegimius 1, Tectamus, and Iphthime 2 [Apd.1.7.2-3; Dio.4.58.6, 4.60.2; Nonn.14.114].
Dorus 2. Son of Apollo and Phthia 2, and father of Xanthippe 1, who married Pleuron, son of Aetolus 2, the man who killed Dorus 2 [Apd.1.7.6-7].
Dorus 3. Father of Cleues, a descendant of Agamemnon [Strab.13.1.3].
dorus Megistias ( talk) 11:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I took this out:
fought between the allies of the two groups. The degree to which fifth-century Hellenes self-identified as "Ionian" or "Dorian" has itself been disputed. [1] The fifth- and fourth-century literary tradition through which we view these ethnic identifications was profoundly influenced by the social politics of the time. [2] Nineteenth-century European admirers of virtues they considered "Dorian" identified themselves as " Laconophile" and found responsive parallels in the culture of their day as well; their biases contribute to the traditional modern interpretation of "Dorians".
And here are my reasons. Bottom line, the text is obscure and does not say enough to be meaningful. But if you did say enough to be meaningful, the topic would not belong here. This is about the major things we KNOW about the Dorians or about the major theories concerning the things we don't know for sure. It is not about whether we or anyone have the appropriate perspective. The KISS principle applies here. We don't want an epistemological treatise, we want to know about the Dorians. Now for the detail. You seem to be saying the war was fought between the allies of the two groups but not the two groups! In any case we don't need that info because it is in the linked article on the war. As for the degree to which people considered themselves Ionian or Dorian, what has that got to do with anything? Are you trying to say they did not consider it a war between Ionians and Dorians? That there are other lines drawn, other reasons for the war? What are you trying to say there? Whatever it is, I doubt it belongs in the upper material, but unless you expand it, we'll never know. Shouldn't it be in the article on the war? And about this profound political influence of the literary tradition, again, I question what you mean there. Unless you say, the meaning is null. Are we supposed to realize we have learned that politics influenced literature in 5th century Athens? or did you have something else in mind? Then all of a sudden we jump to the 19th century laconophiles. What happened to all the other 2500 years of laconophiles and phobes? What's the relevance to the topic of the article, what does that tell us about the Dorians? I'm sorry, I don't mean to pull your chain. Historical writing is an art that does not come overnight if at all. I appreciate your efforts and I hope you continue with them after reflection and practice but I do not see how the removed passages add anything at all to the article, which is why I removed them. Thanks. Keep at it. Bonne chance. Dave ( talk) 18:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
References
We're not using footnote format for the refs here and that is partly my fault as I did quite a bit of work on it some months ago. But it is never to late to fix it so let's fix it and you classicists can no doubt find more refs to the things said. As far as I can see the info is sound except where I am removing statements. Remember our intent is not to shock the public or joke with your teenage friends but to inform the public about this interesting historical topic in encyclopedic style. Abstract coffee and conversation concerning your or someone's personal opinions of the Dorians also should not find a home here. We're telling it to the best of our ability like it was. Dave ( talk) 18:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I see what has happened on this article now. I and the other original editors hoped to do a summary that would avoid the issues. As soon as the readers started looking for refs they discovered the controversies. This topic has been controversial and often bitterly so for a long time, and still is. Were there any Dorians? Was there any Dorian invasion? Just what were "Dorians" like? So, if you are are a general reader and you happen to find one or the other of the outspoken presentations you are likely to jump in with the reaction "why, this is all wrong!" favoring the first thing you read. It isn't all wrong. Readers, now that we know you want more detail and some answers, we can try to fill in enough to give you a balanced view. Balance is the key. Hall, for example, a good scholarly writer, errs in my view on the skeptical side: there were no Dorians. Halicarnassus was not a Dorian state. Heck Hall it isn't that bad. So bear with and if you have questions or answers and can do it right pitch in! Dave ( talk) 12:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
In responding properly to the issues raised by editors and commenters I find that I have managed to lengthen this article to 40 kB. It looks as though it will get longer still. What I want to do is break out Dorian Invasion but I want to to give you some time to consider it. Meanwhile I will continue work on that section here with a view to its being broken out. As you are always quick to respond on this one I suppose that by the time I finish you will have commented if you are going to. I further presuppose that no comment implies approval as you appear to be quick to disapprove. For the material iteself, Dorians and Dorian Invasion are indispensable topics in the field. It is a specialized field. Dave ( talk) 11:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, there is a great misconception as to what Herodot said about the origin of the Dorians.
I here present the text in question :
“Although the one nation nowhere yet went out, the Lacedaemonian was very much wandering. For, in the time of King Deucalion, it was settled in the land of Phthia, and in the time of Dorus, the son of Hellen, in the country under Ossa and Olympus, the so-called Histiaean. From the Histiaean, after it had been expelled by the Cadmeians, it was settled in Pindus called Macedonian. Thence again it changed its place to the Dryopian land, and from the Dryopian thus it came to Peloponnesus, and was called Doric.” (Herodot, Book I, 56.3)
Herodot clearly says that the Dorians are the Greek tribe of Macedonians who migrated south to Peloponnesus. I strongly believe that this is worth mentioning in this article. I understand that it is commonly believed that it was the Macedonians who were Dorians but according to Herodot it was the other way around...
GK1973 ( talk) 01:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
In the article there is the line :
"Another theory is that they originated from Asia Minor, and that they either immigrated through the northeast of Greece and settled in southern Greece or immigrated from the coast of western Asian Minor into the Aegean islands and into southern Greece."
Although I have heard of this theory I have never encountered any evidence as to its truth. Does anybody know of the evidence given or the true origins of its proposal?
GK1973 ( talk) 16:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Text "State University of New York Press" ignored (
help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link). Levin, a professional linguist, compares Sanskrit and Hebrew and comes up with some amazing discoveries. I think he proves that the early Indics of the Middle East had a serious influence on the formation of Hebrew. It is however going to be tedious for you to learn all the linguistics in it. A second source I suggest is Klein's Etymological Dictionary of the English Language. As you might guess from the name, Klein's gives all the Semitic derivations other people pass over. Along those lines also I suggest the latest edition of our own American Heritage Dictionary. It contains a new appendix of Semitic roots, in addition to Watkins' Indo-European ones. Well I hope I have been of some use to you sir. Now, no need to thank me for my concern. I strongly suggest that berating us here on WP for going for the major linguists instead of you is not going to go in propitious directions. You got to have references here, but don't despair, nothing good was ever gained without trouble toil and tears unless God gives it for free. Ciao.
Dave (
talk) 01:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
"Another theory is that they originated from Asia Minor, and that they either immigrated through the northeast of Greece and settled in southern Greece or immigrated from the coast of western Asian Minor into the Aegean islands and into southern Greece."
No, sorry, this is not even a possible possibility. No Greek tradition mentions such a possibility. No Greek mythological story mentions such a possibility. The inhabitants of Anatolia are sufficiently known and documented to preclude it. This "theory" appears to be original with the editor. While I appreciate your interest in trying it out I think you got from us what you were really seeking, feedback. The Anatolians were on the coast of Anatolia until it was settled by the East Greeks. Some Dorians came in to the south later but that was through the Peloponnesus and the islands. You really have to spend some time studying the subject before you can come up with credible speculations. I do applaud your interest and it is something you can study mainly on your own. Here we don't alow original research. Dave ( talk) 00:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Could the Dorians have been Proto-Celts? with paternal haplogroup R1b? emigrating across the black sea to the Danube, up into the danubian basin, before a sub branch went south and were called the Dorians by the Ionians? This map on Eupedia kind of implies something like that happened (It kind of all fits together nicely).
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
Were these so called Dorians also the "Sea peoples" which ravaged the old classical world? .... could be..
Stephen Grant-Davies 12/10/2012. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
217.243.166.218 (
talk) 12:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
These are not real Dorians and the language is not Greek. This is a figure of speech. That section did not belong here so I took it out. It was only a duplicate of stuff found in the Scottish Dorian article, to which you can get through the disambig. Dave ( talk) 02:32, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
"In the Linear B tablets the word "do-e-ro" is also found, meaning "slave". [1]"
So what? The reference given does not connect this word with "Dorian." The editor does not suggest it either. It is apparently a sort of wisecrack thrown in there gratuitous. Please, we're trying to do an article here. The derivations I included are referenced to the works of famous linguists. I did not just pluck them out of the air. It is of little concern to us whether you agree with Pokorney or Boisacq or not. We aren't playing the "pluck out of the air game." If you find another derivation and care to put it in I for one would be pleased to see it. However, your own surmises, true or false, are not fair game. This is not a debating ground or a place where you state whether you agree or disagree, respect or scorn the referenced material. If some linguist of note suggests that the Dorians were named "slaves" then by all means put it in under his name. I'm not saying they were not slaves, I'm saying you have to document it. Dave ( talk) 04:01, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
References
Mr. Davidson, your acrimonious attack on Pokorney threw me off. I did find a valid and serious gift theory proposed by notable scholar. It is not the baby name. You might be interested in this: Zeus gave the Peloponnesus to the Dorians as a chosen land, a gift of the gods. The Spartans it seems had an ideology of maintaining their gift from Zeus. Dorian would mean therefore something like "the people of the chosen land." The proponent of course is Hall. Something like this I will write up and put in based on Hall. You may take a hand if you wish. Any connection with the Hebrews of course would have to be documented. What do I think myself? I don't know. There are these good theories out there. In etymology you seldom get any certainty. It isn't rocket science. But, this is a case in point on what happens on WP. You began argumentatively without any backup of what you were saying. We all do it. Not a good idea, though. I immediately assumed from your disputational approach you did not have one and were covering that lack with outrageous statements about the people who knew what they were talking about. Well I forgive you, but it mislead us and wasted time and energy. Maybe you did not know about Hall. In any case now that I have found him I cannot pass him by. Dave ( talk) 04:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
This has gotten totally out of hand. It is not even readable at many points. Originally intended as an author-by-author reference (main ancient authors) it suffers from the application of new organizations inconsistently carried through. Not only that but the editors attempt to give the whys, wherefores and corrections to the ancient suthors. No, we can't do that. The ancient authors are the prime data. You then compare this data. We can't correct the prime data with theories based on it. Sorry, some radical changes are warranted here when I get to it not long from now. I'm keeping the author-by author approach, which means, we don't put Strabo under Homer, among other things. Dave ( talk) 14:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Unless I am misreading Hdt. 5.87, he indicates (contrary the Wiki here) that all the Greeks, esp. the Athenians, used to wear "Dorian" dress (WITH a brooch), but that, after the Athenian women killed the sole returning Athenian from the Epidauran expedition, they changed to an "Ionian" dress (NO brooch--so as to avoid further puncture wounds from angry widows, e.g.). But then Hdt. goes on to say that "no-brooch Ionian" was actually Carian, presumably from contact with Ionians in Asia Minor (?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.17.60.68 ( talk) 16:33, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
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I realize the Dorian Invasion article has better citations, but I feel like the origin section of this article either needs some citations for some of it's rather bold claims, or they should be reworded to reflect less certainty on the subject.
In Herodotus 1.56.3, the original Greek text has "οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ Μακεδνὸν καλεόμενον" [2] and its correct translation in English is: "it settled in Pindus and was called Macedonian". But Godley's translation, which we use for reference, is wrong, having "it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian" instead of "and was called Macedonian". However, Robin Waterfield’s translation (“The Histories”, [Oxford World's Classics], Oxford University Press, 2008), considered the best translation overall, as well as G. C. Macaulay’s (1890) translation, have “and they were called Macedonian” and "and was called "Macedonian" respectively, which are both in accordance with the original Greek text. Unfortunately, Waterfield's translation is not available online, but Macaulay's is; hence I am replacing Godley's translation with Macaulay's one. Macedonian ( talk) 21:37, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
In the "Social Structure" section of this article an account of the Social Structure of Sparta is given (indeed of Sparta at a certain stage of its history) with, for example, full Spartan adult male citizens under 30 all living together - and various other aspects of the City State of Sparta during a particular period of its history. However, the section does not say "Sparta" (let alone "Sparta in a certain period of its history") - it pretends that this Social Structure applied to all Dorian City States (such as Corinth) and, as such, the section of the article is absurd. If you do not like me changing the article - then please do so yourself. 2A02:C7D:B41D:C800:495D:D86A:7AC7:2896 ( talk) 15:18, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Having read this entire talk page, it seems as if user /info/en/?search=User:Botteville (Dave) has been the one taking it upon himself to fashion this entire article according to his own POV. All his talk comments reek of absolutism. Check for yourself, read every comment on this talkpage and see how “Dave” has made a unilateral decision by himself for the article. The entire wiki page is the POV view of one editor. 2A02:A445:79E2:1:F8E9:4B4A:2FF9:EDFB ( talk) 00:47, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
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Since the Dorians did not play the guitar (!) the 'guitar chord' terminology to refer to the Dorian mode seems rather out of place. I've changed it. Paul
These two articles essentially belong together at Dorian, supporting one another until some subsection is overwhelmingly complicated and might stand on its own, represented at the main article by a concise paragraph. Perhaps there are three subsections to the "Dorian invasions" part:
If you see other natural subdivisions, please insert them, and then let's get going with this interesting big article. -- Wetman 06:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
hola me llamo hola —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.244.224.114 ( talk) 02:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Wetman: Yes your revision of my edit is better. Can you be more specific what you mean by "late mythology"? Also I don't quite know how to incorporate the notion that the common ancestry of the Dorians, Ionians, and Aetolians (all "descendants" of Hellen), is more than mere "mythology" and probably represents and the early beginnings of an ethnological theory. Paul August ☎ 20:14, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
There is about the same evidence for the "Dorian Invasion" and the "Return of the Heracleidae". The distinction made in the present text is Mueller's dogmatism. Don't see how to fix it right now, but shall return Septentrionalis 18:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
If you'll leave Mūller aside, and concentrate instead on the theme of return of the Heracleidae as it is expressed in the written myths themselves, you'll really improve this article. -- Wetman 19:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure this belongs here either; but I agree it belongs somewhere; so I'm adding it to this talkpage so it doesn't just disappear.
Septentrionalis 20:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Dorian was also a sacret mage from the guild named rugcutters -
- Removed the above, seemed off-topic
Meersan 20:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Dorian is a first name, where's the disambiguation?? Shandris the azylean 19:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You'd think this basic bit of information would be included somewhere in the beginning of the article... Instead, only one gets clues and hints much further along. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tullie ( talk • contribs) 22:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
I would like to reiterate the concerns noted above. The "when" might even merit its own subsection. The Jackal God 20:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
So how come the dorians had no written language if they had been part of Greece for a long time? And how come they introduced iron weapons, hithertho not found in Greece? 132.150.9.210 ( talk) 15:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
That was brought there from the middle east. It never existed among the Dorians, also, the sources are all wrong.
What the Dorians brought was boy-love as a publicly recognized and honorable institution. The Dorians strictly regulated the love relationship between man and boy and treated it as a very important arrangement very publicly with honorable earnestness under the protection of the family, society, the state, and religion. . . . In Sparta, Crete, and Thebes. . . . the education of the ruling class, resting on pederasty, [was directed towards] arete and manly virtue, which principally manifested itself in war. [1]
Might I suggest that you make a greater effort to assume good faith? I don't think your suspicion of vandalism is at all justified. Not everyone who edits a Wikipedia article has some devious ulterior agenda, believe it or not.
If what you say is accurate, though, the original source was misleading, Bethe never actually argued for what the quote might imply, and you are right to remove it. FilipeS ( talk) 17:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
References
Shouldn't this article exist under the name Dorians? All the ethnic group/tribe-related articles are titled with the name of the people, not the adjective which refers to them. See Greeks, Ionians, Aeolians, Achaeans etc - Sthenel 11:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it me, or does this section sound a tad non-NPOV?... FilipeS 15:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I have read all comments by “Dave” and he does not seem to be NPOV. One can’t claim with certainty viewpoints that are debated among modern scholars. 2A02:A445:79E2:1:F8E9:4B4A:2FF9:EDFB ( talk) 00:41, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Dorus 1 is the man who called the Dorians (one of the main Hellenic groups) after himself. He was son of Hellen 1, son of Deucalion 1, the man who survived the Flood. His mother was Orseis, one of the NYMPHS. His brothers, Aeolus 1 and Xuthus 1, are also well known. Dorus 1's children are Aegimius 1, Tectamus, and Iphthime 2 [Apd.1.7.2-3; Dio.4.58.6, 4.60.2; Nonn.14.114].
Dorus 2. Son of Apollo and Phthia 2, and father of Xanthippe 1, who married Pleuron, son of Aetolus 2, the man who killed Dorus 2 [Apd.1.7.6-7].
Dorus 3. Father of Cleues, a descendant of Agamemnon [Strab.13.1.3].
dorus Megistias ( talk) 11:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I took this out:
fought between the allies of the two groups. The degree to which fifth-century Hellenes self-identified as "Ionian" or "Dorian" has itself been disputed. [1] The fifth- and fourth-century literary tradition through which we view these ethnic identifications was profoundly influenced by the social politics of the time. [2] Nineteenth-century European admirers of virtues they considered "Dorian" identified themselves as " Laconophile" and found responsive parallels in the culture of their day as well; their biases contribute to the traditional modern interpretation of "Dorians".
And here are my reasons. Bottom line, the text is obscure and does not say enough to be meaningful. But if you did say enough to be meaningful, the topic would not belong here. This is about the major things we KNOW about the Dorians or about the major theories concerning the things we don't know for sure. It is not about whether we or anyone have the appropriate perspective. The KISS principle applies here. We don't want an epistemological treatise, we want to know about the Dorians. Now for the detail. You seem to be saying the war was fought between the allies of the two groups but not the two groups! In any case we don't need that info because it is in the linked article on the war. As for the degree to which people considered themselves Ionian or Dorian, what has that got to do with anything? Are you trying to say they did not consider it a war between Ionians and Dorians? That there are other lines drawn, other reasons for the war? What are you trying to say there? Whatever it is, I doubt it belongs in the upper material, but unless you expand it, we'll never know. Shouldn't it be in the article on the war? And about this profound political influence of the literary tradition, again, I question what you mean there. Unless you say, the meaning is null. Are we supposed to realize we have learned that politics influenced literature in 5th century Athens? or did you have something else in mind? Then all of a sudden we jump to the 19th century laconophiles. What happened to all the other 2500 years of laconophiles and phobes? What's the relevance to the topic of the article, what does that tell us about the Dorians? I'm sorry, I don't mean to pull your chain. Historical writing is an art that does not come overnight if at all. I appreciate your efforts and I hope you continue with them after reflection and practice but I do not see how the removed passages add anything at all to the article, which is why I removed them. Thanks. Keep at it. Bonne chance. Dave ( talk) 18:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
References
We're not using footnote format for the refs here and that is partly my fault as I did quite a bit of work on it some months ago. But it is never to late to fix it so let's fix it and you classicists can no doubt find more refs to the things said. As far as I can see the info is sound except where I am removing statements. Remember our intent is not to shock the public or joke with your teenage friends but to inform the public about this interesting historical topic in encyclopedic style. Abstract coffee and conversation concerning your or someone's personal opinions of the Dorians also should not find a home here. We're telling it to the best of our ability like it was. Dave ( talk) 18:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I see what has happened on this article now. I and the other original editors hoped to do a summary that would avoid the issues. As soon as the readers started looking for refs they discovered the controversies. This topic has been controversial and often bitterly so for a long time, and still is. Were there any Dorians? Was there any Dorian invasion? Just what were "Dorians" like? So, if you are are a general reader and you happen to find one or the other of the outspoken presentations you are likely to jump in with the reaction "why, this is all wrong!" favoring the first thing you read. It isn't all wrong. Readers, now that we know you want more detail and some answers, we can try to fill in enough to give you a balanced view. Balance is the key. Hall, for example, a good scholarly writer, errs in my view on the skeptical side: there were no Dorians. Halicarnassus was not a Dorian state. Heck Hall it isn't that bad. So bear with and if you have questions or answers and can do it right pitch in! Dave ( talk) 12:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
In responding properly to the issues raised by editors and commenters I find that I have managed to lengthen this article to 40 kB. It looks as though it will get longer still. What I want to do is break out Dorian Invasion but I want to to give you some time to consider it. Meanwhile I will continue work on that section here with a view to its being broken out. As you are always quick to respond on this one I suppose that by the time I finish you will have commented if you are going to. I further presuppose that no comment implies approval as you appear to be quick to disapprove. For the material iteself, Dorians and Dorian Invasion are indispensable topics in the field. It is a specialized field. Dave ( talk) 11:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, there is a great misconception as to what Herodot said about the origin of the Dorians.
I here present the text in question :
“Although the one nation nowhere yet went out, the Lacedaemonian was very much wandering. For, in the time of King Deucalion, it was settled in the land of Phthia, and in the time of Dorus, the son of Hellen, in the country under Ossa and Olympus, the so-called Histiaean. From the Histiaean, after it had been expelled by the Cadmeians, it was settled in Pindus called Macedonian. Thence again it changed its place to the Dryopian land, and from the Dryopian thus it came to Peloponnesus, and was called Doric.” (Herodot, Book I, 56.3)
Herodot clearly says that the Dorians are the Greek tribe of Macedonians who migrated south to Peloponnesus. I strongly believe that this is worth mentioning in this article. I understand that it is commonly believed that it was the Macedonians who were Dorians but according to Herodot it was the other way around...
GK1973 ( talk) 01:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
In the article there is the line :
"Another theory is that they originated from Asia Minor, and that they either immigrated through the northeast of Greece and settled in southern Greece or immigrated from the coast of western Asian Minor into the Aegean islands and into southern Greece."
Although I have heard of this theory I have never encountered any evidence as to its truth. Does anybody know of the evidence given or the true origins of its proposal?
GK1973 ( talk) 16:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
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link). Levin, a professional linguist, compares Sanskrit and Hebrew and comes up with some amazing discoveries. I think he proves that the early Indics of the Middle East had a serious influence on the formation of Hebrew. It is however going to be tedious for you to learn all the linguistics in it. A second source I suggest is Klein's Etymological Dictionary of the English Language. As you might guess from the name, Klein's gives all the Semitic derivations other people pass over. Along those lines also I suggest the latest edition of our own American Heritage Dictionary. It contains a new appendix of Semitic roots, in addition to Watkins' Indo-European ones. Well I hope I have been of some use to you sir. Now, no need to thank me for my concern. I strongly suggest that berating us here on WP for going for the major linguists instead of you is not going to go in propitious directions. You got to have references here, but don't despair, nothing good was ever gained without trouble toil and tears unless God gives it for free. Ciao.
Dave (
talk) 01:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
"Another theory is that they originated from Asia Minor, and that they either immigrated through the northeast of Greece and settled in southern Greece or immigrated from the coast of western Asian Minor into the Aegean islands and into southern Greece."
No, sorry, this is not even a possible possibility. No Greek tradition mentions such a possibility. No Greek mythological story mentions such a possibility. The inhabitants of Anatolia are sufficiently known and documented to preclude it. This "theory" appears to be original with the editor. While I appreciate your interest in trying it out I think you got from us what you were really seeking, feedback. The Anatolians were on the coast of Anatolia until it was settled by the East Greeks. Some Dorians came in to the south later but that was through the Peloponnesus and the islands. You really have to spend some time studying the subject before you can come up with credible speculations. I do applaud your interest and it is something you can study mainly on your own. Here we don't alow original research. Dave ( talk) 00:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Could the Dorians have been Proto-Celts? with paternal haplogroup R1b? emigrating across the black sea to the Danube, up into the danubian basin, before a sub branch went south and were called the Dorians by the Ionians? This map on Eupedia kind of implies something like that happened (It kind of all fits together nicely).
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
Were these so called Dorians also the "Sea peoples" which ravaged the old classical world? .... could be..
Stephen Grant-Davies 12/10/2012. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
217.243.166.218 (
talk) 12:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
These are not real Dorians and the language is not Greek. This is a figure of speech. That section did not belong here so I took it out. It was only a duplicate of stuff found in the Scottish Dorian article, to which you can get through the disambig. Dave ( talk) 02:32, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
"In the Linear B tablets the word "do-e-ro" is also found, meaning "slave". [1]"
So what? The reference given does not connect this word with "Dorian." The editor does not suggest it either. It is apparently a sort of wisecrack thrown in there gratuitous. Please, we're trying to do an article here. The derivations I included are referenced to the works of famous linguists. I did not just pluck them out of the air. It is of little concern to us whether you agree with Pokorney or Boisacq or not. We aren't playing the "pluck out of the air game." If you find another derivation and care to put it in I for one would be pleased to see it. However, your own surmises, true or false, are not fair game. This is not a debating ground or a place where you state whether you agree or disagree, respect or scorn the referenced material. If some linguist of note suggests that the Dorians were named "slaves" then by all means put it in under his name. I'm not saying they were not slaves, I'm saying you have to document it. Dave ( talk) 04:01, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
References
Mr. Davidson, your acrimonious attack on Pokorney threw me off. I did find a valid and serious gift theory proposed by notable scholar. It is not the baby name. You might be interested in this: Zeus gave the Peloponnesus to the Dorians as a chosen land, a gift of the gods. The Spartans it seems had an ideology of maintaining their gift from Zeus. Dorian would mean therefore something like "the people of the chosen land." The proponent of course is Hall. Something like this I will write up and put in based on Hall. You may take a hand if you wish. Any connection with the Hebrews of course would have to be documented. What do I think myself? I don't know. There are these good theories out there. In etymology you seldom get any certainty. It isn't rocket science. But, this is a case in point on what happens on WP. You began argumentatively without any backup of what you were saying. We all do it. Not a good idea, though. I immediately assumed from your disputational approach you did not have one and were covering that lack with outrageous statements about the people who knew what they were talking about. Well I forgive you, but it mislead us and wasted time and energy. Maybe you did not know about Hall. In any case now that I have found him I cannot pass him by. Dave ( talk) 04:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
This has gotten totally out of hand. It is not even readable at many points. Originally intended as an author-by-author reference (main ancient authors) it suffers from the application of new organizations inconsistently carried through. Not only that but the editors attempt to give the whys, wherefores and corrections to the ancient suthors. No, we can't do that. The ancient authors are the prime data. You then compare this data. We can't correct the prime data with theories based on it. Sorry, some radical changes are warranted here when I get to it not long from now. I'm keeping the author-by author approach, which means, we don't put Strabo under Homer, among other things. Dave ( talk) 14:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Unless I am misreading Hdt. 5.87, he indicates (contrary the Wiki here) that all the Greeks, esp. the Athenians, used to wear "Dorian" dress (WITH a brooch), but that, after the Athenian women killed the sole returning Athenian from the Epidauran expedition, they changed to an "Ionian" dress (NO brooch--so as to avoid further puncture wounds from angry widows, e.g.). But then Hdt. goes on to say that "no-brooch Ionian" was actually Carian, presumably from contact with Ionians in Asia Minor (?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.17.60.68 ( talk) 16:33, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
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I realize the Dorian Invasion article has better citations, but I feel like the origin section of this article either needs some citations for some of it's rather bold claims, or they should be reworded to reflect less certainty on the subject.
In Herodotus 1.56.3, the original Greek text has "οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ Μακεδνὸν καλεόμενον" [2] and its correct translation in English is: "it settled in Pindus and was called Macedonian". But Godley's translation, which we use for reference, is wrong, having "it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian" instead of "and was called Macedonian". However, Robin Waterfield’s translation (“The Histories”, [Oxford World's Classics], Oxford University Press, 2008), considered the best translation overall, as well as G. C. Macaulay’s (1890) translation, have “and they were called Macedonian” and "and was called "Macedonian" respectively, which are both in accordance with the original Greek text. Unfortunately, Waterfield's translation is not available online, but Macaulay's is; hence I am replacing Godley's translation with Macaulay's one. Macedonian ( talk) 21:37, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
In the "Social Structure" section of this article an account of the Social Structure of Sparta is given (indeed of Sparta at a certain stage of its history) with, for example, full Spartan adult male citizens under 30 all living together - and various other aspects of the City State of Sparta during a particular period of its history. However, the section does not say "Sparta" (let alone "Sparta in a certain period of its history") - it pretends that this Social Structure applied to all Dorian City States (such as Corinth) and, as such, the section of the article is absurd. If you do not like me changing the article - then please do so yourself. 2A02:C7D:B41D:C800:495D:D86A:7AC7:2896 ( talk) 15:18, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Having read this entire talk page, it seems as if user /info/en/?search=User:Botteville (Dave) has been the one taking it upon himself to fashion this entire article according to his own POV. All his talk comments reek of absolutism. Check for yourself, read every comment on this talkpage and see how “Dave” has made a unilateral decision by himself for the article. The entire wiki page is the POV view of one editor. 2A02:A445:79E2:1:F8E9:4B4A:2FF9:EDFB ( talk) 00:47, 15 October 2020 (UTC)