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Based on what I've seen while researching this, I know I'm going to regret opening this can of worms, but - Are we sure Jacula, listed as one of the "other notable groups" from the 1970s, really existed as a notable or even real band in that decade?
Jacula was introduced in the Doom Metal page on "14:37, 27 August 2016 ABC paulista" - and I think ABC paulista added it in good faith based on the band's claims, but the citation used is a link to a page under construction, which seems to have been the band's own page on their label's website, and this isn't my first time running into trouble tracing Jacula to any legitimate source earlier than the year 2000 or so.
The band's Wikipedia page looks downright suspicious over its history, the folks at the Metal Archives seem to have nothing on them while finding their strangely modern production suspect, the only citations I can find for the band's existence before the 1990s seem to come from the band's autobiographies and hype appearing in blogs and wikis suddenly through the 2000s, and their pre-2000 autobiography claiming to have invented extreme metal before Black Sabbath existed reads like something from "This is Spinal Tap" with the punchlines filed off: https://dangerousminds.net/comments/bleak_sabbath_did_the_mysterious_occult_group_jacula_invent_black_metal_in_
Based on everything I've seen when researching Jacula and Antonius Rex back in the early 2000s, and again now, I have no reason to think this band isn't... "exaggerating their back story a little". Furthermore, I think Wikipedia (along with a bunch of other wikis and blogs and zine review pages) are being used to help build a fake history for a pair of bands (Jacula, Antonius Rex) that I don't think existed much earlier than the year 2001. Jacula claims to be a metal band older than Black Sabbath that nobody has heard of until the band started trying to sell "rare" and suspiciously modern-sounding records in the 2000s; I can't find such extraordinary claims credible, without proof more extraordinary than the band's own hype posted to wikis and blogs long after the fact.
Can anyone really demonstrate that Jacula were...
16:01, 4 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ywhateley ( talk • contribs)
"The Jacula/Antonius Rex story is almost certainly a hoax, for the following reasons:
- None of the "disputed" albums ("In Cauda Semper Stat Venenum", "Neque Semper Arcum Tendit Rex" and "Praeternatural") sound like they were recorded between 1969 and 1980. They are modern progressive metal, complete with programmed drums.
- None of these albums sound anything like the LPs that were actually released in the seventies ("Tardo Pede In Magiam Versus", "Zora" and "Ralefun"), none of which have any metal elements whatsoever.
- They do, however, sound very similar to one another — probably because they were recorded right after one another in the early noughties.
- Not a single copy of any of the disputed albums has ever been offered for sale or is in the possession of any known collector. This simply *never* happens, no matter how rare a rock LP. A "white label" "original" copy of "Tardo Pede…" was once offered, at a huge price, on eBay. When I contacted the seller, he said that he was a friend of the band and had no idea whether what he was selling was authentic. He sounded very embarrassed about the whole thing.
- The band later changed their story about the white label, claiming it was remixed and repressed in 1981 in the Ukraine by a band associate. The Ukraine? It was part of the communist USSR. You couldn't simply have wandered into a studio and pressing plant with a tape of an obscure Western underground band and asked them to run off 100 copies.
- I have another mutual friend with the band, who has described them as "compulsive liars".
- Charles Tiring was supposedly 68 when he recorded "Tardo Pede…" (and had allegedly just married an 18-year-old). According to the band, he died in 1979 (in mysterious circumstances, of course). Yet the band credited him as keyboardist on the (supposedly) 1990 recording "Magic Ritual", indicating they can't keep track of their own claims.
- Drummer Albert Goodman was supposedly an English nobleman with his own castle; he was allegedly murdered in Slovenia (which didn't exist at the time) in 1978. Allegedly he had contacts with the Italian branch of Vertigo, which was planning to issue "Neque Semper…" back in 1974, but they refused because they considered the cover and the lyrics to "Devil Letter" too controversial. The cover isn't controversial and occult rock was huge at the time, so this seems extremely unlikely.
- "Praeternatural" credits Doris Norton with " Fairlight CMI". How would Bartocetti and Norton have got their hands on such a rare and expensive piece of kit back in 1980?
- The final smoking gun: Norton's solo album "The Double Side Of The Science" (1990) includes a discography in its booklet, complete with inflated collectors' prices for all her releases. None of the disputed albums is mentioned (and neither is her non-existent solo "debut" "Under Ground") as the band hadn't made them yet.
- Anonymous Comment ( source)
Hello User:ABC paulista. You have reverted my edit with the edit summary of "The WP:ALLMUSIC doesn't say anything about you said....." I beg to differ. You will have noted that it, and its traveling friends, have been rated WP:MREL, from which I will quote:
No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply: The source is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context. Editors may not have been able to agree on whether the source is appropriate, or may have agreed that it is only reliable in certain circumstances. It may be necessary to evaluate each use of the source on a case-by-case basis while accounting for specific factors unique to the source in question. Carefully review the Summary column of the table for details on the status of the source and the factors that should be considered.
Thus, unless it is a band review (which appears to be acceptable), I have badged the text with better source needed - these "no author provided and no references stated" pieces of verbiage hosted at Allmusic require better sourcing. We are now 30 years since the creation of some of these music genres/sub-genres/fusion-genres, books have been written on these subjects by expert music journalists, and better sourcing is needed in articles apart from Allmusic. William Harris (talk) 01:25, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Whilst we are on this topic, the section on "Stoner metal" begins "Stoner metal or stoner doom[114][115]..." Nothing in those two references states that Stoner metal is also referred to as Stoner doom. The two articles list both stoner and stoner-doom works. There exists bands that fuse the two, with doom-laden bass and psychedelic lead (recent example being Monolord from Sweden). We appear to have here an article on doom metal that is based on "in need of better" sources, mis-interpretation of sources, or sources that do not state what is claimed. Perhaps if it focused on the topic - doom metal - instead of chasing after fusions and derivatives and leave those to their own articles, then it might be able to obtain better sourcing. Currently, I my opinion it mis-advises its readers. William Harris (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
I recently edited this page in regards to the wrongly attributed quote in “Louder Than Hell” book with the correct source information, the correct page #, and the direct quote and wiki moderator recently changed it back to the original (wrongly attributed) content. 67.11.2.113 ( talk) 07:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
As the headline suggests, I'd like to cut out Black Sabbath categorized as a doom metal band. Black Sabbath is often considered the first heavy metal band (which is totally fine and has some foundation) but they are clearly not dedicated to the overarching sound of the doom metal genre. I think this might even plausible to people who don't know any doom metal. 2001:16B8:B20D:F800:284C:1B43:DC4A:E69D ( talk) 09:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Doom metal article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 360 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that one or more musical audio files be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and included in this article to improve its quality. Please see Wikipedia:Requested recordings for more on this request. |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Doom metal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:41, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Based on what I've seen while researching this, I know I'm going to regret opening this can of worms, but - Are we sure Jacula, listed as one of the "other notable groups" from the 1970s, really existed as a notable or even real band in that decade?
Jacula was introduced in the Doom Metal page on "14:37, 27 August 2016 ABC paulista" - and I think ABC paulista added it in good faith based on the band's claims, but the citation used is a link to a page under construction, which seems to have been the band's own page on their label's website, and this isn't my first time running into trouble tracing Jacula to any legitimate source earlier than the year 2000 or so.
The band's Wikipedia page looks downright suspicious over its history, the folks at the Metal Archives seem to have nothing on them while finding their strangely modern production suspect, the only citations I can find for the band's existence before the 1990s seem to come from the band's autobiographies and hype appearing in blogs and wikis suddenly through the 2000s, and their pre-2000 autobiography claiming to have invented extreme metal before Black Sabbath existed reads like something from "This is Spinal Tap" with the punchlines filed off: https://dangerousminds.net/comments/bleak_sabbath_did_the_mysterious_occult_group_jacula_invent_black_metal_in_
Based on everything I've seen when researching Jacula and Antonius Rex back in the early 2000s, and again now, I have no reason to think this band isn't... "exaggerating their back story a little". Furthermore, I think Wikipedia (along with a bunch of other wikis and blogs and zine review pages) are being used to help build a fake history for a pair of bands (Jacula, Antonius Rex) that I don't think existed much earlier than the year 2001. Jacula claims to be a metal band older than Black Sabbath that nobody has heard of until the band started trying to sell "rare" and suspiciously modern-sounding records in the 2000s; I can't find such extraordinary claims credible, without proof more extraordinary than the band's own hype posted to wikis and blogs long after the fact.
Can anyone really demonstrate that Jacula were...
16:01, 4 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ywhateley ( talk • contribs)
"The Jacula/Antonius Rex story is almost certainly a hoax, for the following reasons:
- None of the "disputed" albums ("In Cauda Semper Stat Venenum", "Neque Semper Arcum Tendit Rex" and "Praeternatural") sound like they were recorded between 1969 and 1980. They are modern progressive metal, complete with programmed drums.
- None of these albums sound anything like the LPs that were actually released in the seventies ("Tardo Pede In Magiam Versus", "Zora" and "Ralefun"), none of which have any metal elements whatsoever.
- They do, however, sound very similar to one another — probably because they were recorded right after one another in the early noughties.
- Not a single copy of any of the disputed albums has ever been offered for sale or is in the possession of any known collector. This simply *never* happens, no matter how rare a rock LP. A "white label" "original" copy of "Tardo Pede…" was once offered, at a huge price, on eBay. When I contacted the seller, he said that he was a friend of the band and had no idea whether what he was selling was authentic. He sounded very embarrassed about the whole thing.
- The band later changed their story about the white label, claiming it was remixed and repressed in 1981 in the Ukraine by a band associate. The Ukraine? It was part of the communist USSR. You couldn't simply have wandered into a studio and pressing plant with a tape of an obscure Western underground band and asked them to run off 100 copies.
- I have another mutual friend with the band, who has described them as "compulsive liars".
- Charles Tiring was supposedly 68 when he recorded "Tardo Pede…" (and had allegedly just married an 18-year-old). According to the band, he died in 1979 (in mysterious circumstances, of course). Yet the band credited him as keyboardist on the (supposedly) 1990 recording "Magic Ritual", indicating they can't keep track of their own claims.
- Drummer Albert Goodman was supposedly an English nobleman with his own castle; he was allegedly murdered in Slovenia (which didn't exist at the time) in 1978. Allegedly he had contacts with the Italian branch of Vertigo, which was planning to issue "Neque Semper…" back in 1974, but they refused because they considered the cover and the lyrics to "Devil Letter" too controversial. The cover isn't controversial and occult rock was huge at the time, so this seems extremely unlikely.
- "Praeternatural" credits Doris Norton with " Fairlight CMI". How would Bartocetti and Norton have got their hands on such a rare and expensive piece of kit back in 1980?
- The final smoking gun: Norton's solo album "The Double Side Of The Science" (1990) includes a discography in its booklet, complete with inflated collectors' prices for all her releases. None of the disputed albums is mentioned (and neither is her non-existent solo "debut" "Under Ground") as the band hadn't made them yet.
- Anonymous Comment ( source)
Hello User:ABC paulista. You have reverted my edit with the edit summary of "The WP:ALLMUSIC doesn't say anything about you said....." I beg to differ. You will have noted that it, and its traveling friends, have been rated WP:MREL, from which I will quote:
No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply: The source is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context. Editors may not have been able to agree on whether the source is appropriate, or may have agreed that it is only reliable in certain circumstances. It may be necessary to evaluate each use of the source on a case-by-case basis while accounting for specific factors unique to the source in question. Carefully review the Summary column of the table for details on the status of the source and the factors that should be considered.
Thus, unless it is a band review (which appears to be acceptable), I have badged the text with better source needed - these "no author provided and no references stated" pieces of verbiage hosted at Allmusic require better sourcing. We are now 30 years since the creation of some of these music genres/sub-genres/fusion-genres, books have been written on these subjects by expert music journalists, and better sourcing is needed in articles apart from Allmusic. William Harris (talk) 01:25, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Whilst we are on this topic, the section on "Stoner metal" begins "Stoner metal or stoner doom[114][115]..." Nothing in those two references states that Stoner metal is also referred to as Stoner doom. The two articles list both stoner and stoner-doom works. There exists bands that fuse the two, with doom-laden bass and psychedelic lead (recent example being Monolord from Sweden). We appear to have here an article on doom metal that is based on "in need of better" sources, mis-interpretation of sources, or sources that do not state what is claimed. Perhaps if it focused on the topic - doom metal - instead of chasing after fusions and derivatives and leave those to their own articles, then it might be able to obtain better sourcing. Currently, I my opinion it mis-advises its readers. William Harris (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
I recently edited this page in regards to the wrongly attributed quote in “Louder Than Hell” book with the correct source information, the correct page #, and the direct quote and wiki moderator recently changed it back to the original (wrongly attributed) content. 67.11.2.113 ( talk) 07:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
As the headline suggests, I'd like to cut out Black Sabbath categorized as a doom metal band. Black Sabbath is often considered the first heavy metal band (which is totally fine and has some foundation) but they are clearly not dedicated to the overarching sound of the doom metal genre. I think this might even plausible to people who don't know any doom metal. 2001:16B8:B20D:F800:284C:1B43:DC4A:E69D ( talk) 09:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)