This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
One should be the article name, the other should be a redirect to the article. If someone types in Chinese, they will find the article. If someone types in English the will find the article. Nobody ever types in both Chinese and English simultaneously. We don't need both languages in the title. Choose one or the other. The default is to choose English. You need to give good examples of prevalence of the Chinese version for it to supersede the English.
Rincewind42 (
talk) 17:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)reply
I can see that you are trying to be consistent, and I have argued for changing titles when it helps readers, but
WP:Common Sense applies here:
WP:English says of itself that it is is a "generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."
For such small numbers, "prevalence" is hard to establish, but Chinese clearly outnumbers any one English version. When policy says "generally," the important thing is to have a title which helps the reader. The most common usage is to have one language with a translation into the other in parenthesis. What's wrong with that?
Your very sensible observation about how anyone can find the article by searching either language applies to the present title as well.
Google Scholar turns up nothing for
DSEC, many hits for
DJMHL with a translation in parens. I can see, however, "Record of a Dream of Splendor in the Eastern Capital," "Dream of Glory of the [Former] Oriental Capital," and there may be other translations. Which English title would you use?
I see your point that the present title is not perfect, but I don't see that another would be better.
Cheers
ch (
talk) 03:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)reply
The current title is abnormal. There are no other articles in the
Wikipedia:WikiProject China named like this. You uses either the pinyin or the English - never both. I don't need to argue with you about why. There is a long established precedent that this is what we do. Look at
Wikipedia:MOS-ZH and
WP:NC-CHINA for more details. If you disagree with the naming conventions used on Wikipedia, then argue it out on
WT:NC-CHINA not here.
Take for example the
Temple of Heaven in Beijing. It could have been titled
Tiantan as that is the Chinese pinyin and is sometimes used in English. Instead Tiantan redirects to Temple of Heaven. However it is not titled Tiantan (Temple of Heaven).
If you were to argue that we should have the pinyin and the English then it would follow that we should also put the Cantonese, Wade-Gyles and other forms of the name in the one title and the titles. Take another example: the book
Fengshen Yanyi is located under its Chinese pinyin name with a redirect from
Fengshen Bang and also
The Investiture of the Gods. It is not titled Fengshen Yanyi or Fengshen Bang (The Investiture of the Gods).
Brackets in names are used for disambiguation not for translations or alternative titles. For example
Changfeng (missile),
Changfeng Automobile and
Changfeng County need disambiguation so the word missile goes in the bracket. Brackets are never used as they are in this article.
Based on your scan through Google scholar and also my own search on google books and generally on google web, it would seem that Dongjing Meng Hua Lu is comonly used and Dreams of Splendor of the Eastern Capital is a translation that is subject to variations. There for the article should be moved to
Dongjing Meng Hua Lu and redirects created for all the other translations.
Rincewind42 (
talk) 15:51, 20 November 2013 (UTC)reply
Finally you have made a dispositive argument. It would have saved you and me time if you had made it to begin with, but in any case I see that you are right and should make the move. Cheers!
ch (
talk) 03:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)reply
The text translated in Ebrey's Chinese Civilization: A Sourceboo is Ducheng jisheng 都城紀勝 (a description of Hangzhou), not Dongjing meng hua lu (a description of Kaifeng). Perhaps this whole section should be removed? --
Yizhizhai (
talk) 00:17, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
But Ducheng jisheng is a section of Dongjing menghai lu. (Chinese Civilization: A Sourcebook n.41 p.517).
ch (
talk) 21:05, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Apologies: I wrote too hastily. Duzheng jisheng is a separate work, mainly concerning Hangzhou but including much material on Kaifeng. See the Dorothee Schaab-Hanke article cited. I amended the section accordingly, with thanks to Yizhizhai.
ch (
talk) 21:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
I've simply deleted that entire section, since it has nothing to do with Kaifeng (let alone Dongjing menghua lu). It's a completely different text, and the passage in the Chinese Civilization sourcebook refers to Hangzhou, not Kaifeng. In its place, I've added a reference to Stephen H. West's selections of Dongjing menghua lu in Hawai'i Reader of Traditional Chinese Culture.
98.115.255.240 (
talk) 04:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
One should be the article name, the other should be a redirect to the article. If someone types in Chinese, they will find the article. If someone types in English the will find the article. Nobody ever types in both Chinese and English simultaneously. We don't need both languages in the title. Choose one or the other. The default is to choose English. You need to give good examples of prevalence of the Chinese version for it to supersede the English.
Rincewind42 (
talk) 17:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)reply
I can see that you are trying to be consistent, and I have argued for changing titles when it helps readers, but
WP:Common Sense applies here:
WP:English says of itself that it is is a "generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."
For such small numbers, "prevalence" is hard to establish, but Chinese clearly outnumbers any one English version. When policy says "generally," the important thing is to have a title which helps the reader. The most common usage is to have one language with a translation into the other in parenthesis. What's wrong with that?
Your very sensible observation about how anyone can find the article by searching either language applies to the present title as well.
Google Scholar turns up nothing for
DSEC, many hits for
DJMHL with a translation in parens. I can see, however, "Record of a Dream of Splendor in the Eastern Capital," "Dream of Glory of the [Former] Oriental Capital," and there may be other translations. Which English title would you use?
I see your point that the present title is not perfect, but I don't see that another would be better.
Cheers
ch (
talk) 03:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)reply
The current title is abnormal. There are no other articles in the
Wikipedia:WikiProject China named like this. You uses either the pinyin or the English - never both. I don't need to argue with you about why. There is a long established precedent that this is what we do. Look at
Wikipedia:MOS-ZH and
WP:NC-CHINA for more details. If you disagree with the naming conventions used on Wikipedia, then argue it out on
WT:NC-CHINA not here.
Take for example the
Temple of Heaven in Beijing. It could have been titled
Tiantan as that is the Chinese pinyin and is sometimes used in English. Instead Tiantan redirects to Temple of Heaven. However it is not titled Tiantan (Temple of Heaven).
If you were to argue that we should have the pinyin and the English then it would follow that we should also put the Cantonese, Wade-Gyles and other forms of the name in the one title and the titles. Take another example: the book
Fengshen Yanyi is located under its Chinese pinyin name with a redirect from
Fengshen Bang and also
The Investiture of the Gods. It is not titled Fengshen Yanyi or Fengshen Bang (The Investiture of the Gods).
Brackets in names are used for disambiguation not for translations or alternative titles. For example
Changfeng (missile),
Changfeng Automobile and
Changfeng County need disambiguation so the word missile goes in the bracket. Brackets are never used as they are in this article.
Based on your scan through Google scholar and also my own search on google books and generally on google web, it would seem that Dongjing Meng Hua Lu is comonly used and Dreams of Splendor of the Eastern Capital is a translation that is subject to variations. There for the article should be moved to
Dongjing Meng Hua Lu and redirects created for all the other translations.
Rincewind42 (
talk) 15:51, 20 November 2013 (UTC)reply
Finally you have made a dispositive argument. It would have saved you and me time if you had made it to begin with, but in any case I see that you are right and should make the move. Cheers!
ch (
talk) 03:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)reply
The text translated in Ebrey's Chinese Civilization: A Sourceboo is Ducheng jisheng 都城紀勝 (a description of Hangzhou), not Dongjing meng hua lu (a description of Kaifeng). Perhaps this whole section should be removed? --
Yizhizhai (
talk) 00:17, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
But Ducheng jisheng is a section of Dongjing menghai lu. (Chinese Civilization: A Sourcebook n.41 p.517).
ch (
talk) 21:05, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Apologies: I wrote too hastily. Duzheng jisheng is a separate work, mainly concerning Hangzhou but including much material on Kaifeng. See the Dorothee Schaab-Hanke article cited. I amended the section accordingly, with thanks to Yizhizhai.
ch (
talk) 21:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
I've simply deleted that entire section, since it has nothing to do with Kaifeng (let alone Dongjing menghua lu). It's a completely different text, and the passage in the Chinese Civilization sourcebook refers to Hangzhou, not Kaifeng. In its place, I've added a reference to Stephen H. West's selections of Dongjing menghua lu in Hawai'i Reader of Traditional Chinese Culture.
98.115.255.240 (
talk) 04:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply