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What is the source for the notion that this was forged to protect Papal interest against the "Byzantines'Italic text"? True, it was first used by the Papacy in its arguments against Patriarch Michael Cerularius in 1054 and the events surrounding that schism, but it was already a couple of centuries old by then. There's no hint among the competing theoris as to its origin in the Catholic Encyclopedia of it having been composed for this purpose. Now, admittedly the public domain Catholic Encyclopedia is rather out of date and there may have been new research on the subject. If that's the case, where can we read about it? TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
That's an interesting idea, but can you point us to an independent source? See, the problem is that the Papacy didn't actually use the document in the 9th century, but waited until the disputes of the 11th. That's quite a span of time. If you have credible information sources that say differently, please cite them. TCC (talk) (contribs) 18:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The first of these is simply the text of the document, and there's nothing in the rest that can really justify such a definitive statement as you've made here. There's at least as good a chance that it was made by some Frankish cleric as Roman since it was they who first quoted it, and however it was later employed Rome did not use it in the disputes involving Charlemagne. (In fact, it seems to have been written to back up some land grants from Pepin a generation earlier.) The Catholic Encyclopedia article actually does a pretty good job of presenting all sides of the argument over its exact origin. (No possibility is mentioned there of the document being genuine.) It is not at all a simple problem. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
That's right, but that means the document was intended to bolster the claims of the Carolingians, not the Papacy as you wrote, and goes further to support a Frankish rather than a Roman origin. Furthermore, it's just one possibility among several for the original purpose of the document. I have no objection to it being mentioned, but if it's going to be brought up at all I think it should be discussed more fully. I'll see if I'm able to devote any attention to it over the next week or so. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
It's a plausible theory. If there was ever any evidence that the Papacy used it in this way, I'd agree with you. But there isn't. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Look, when facts conflict with theories, it's the facts that must prevail no matter how attractive the theory is. The fact is that the Papacy did not use this document until 1054. Others may have, but not the Pope, and to advance Carolingian claims and not the Papacy's. All the sources agree on this fact, and the article should reflect that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:27, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how you could interpret either me here or the available sources to as if they were saying the document "sat on a shelf" for 300 years. No one said the document went unused, only that the Papacy made no use of it. Yes it was used, but not by the Pope and not for the reasons you give: on that the sources all agree. And yes, it was probably in a dispute with the "Byzantines", and yes, over the Imperial titles to which the Carolingians had no rights, strictly speaking. All this militates much more strongly toward the Franks than to Rome. The sources all agree on that too.
As I said, you have an interesting theory, but as you present it here it's both speculative and falls under the rubric of original research which ought not be here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
According to Norman Cantor, the first record of and the first usage of the Donation is in the 750's. It was presented by the Pope to Pepin III to legitimize the Pope's coronation of Pepin to replace the Merengovian kings. The Papacy hoped to thus establish the doctrine that earthly kings were subject to the approval or approbation of the Church. The Donation of Pepin (the land claims discussed earlier) were payback from Pepin to the Papacy for placing him on a throne he had no legitimate claim to under the doctrine of personal inheritance that was then the norm. Elde 07:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I think Ncholas of Cusa should be named as well for giving the first philologic arguments which showed that it was a falsification (see e.g. [ [1]]). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.32.5.229 ( talk) 02:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Generally an encyclopedia article gives more than an offhand clue what the article is about within the first paragraph, the lead section or the first sentence. Reading just the first paragraph of this article the reader will take away nothing about what was forged. Please, if you are en editor of this article, at least give the reader information about what was forged in the first paragraph. It's actually important. -- KP Botany ( talk) 23:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Thanks. -- KP Botany ( talk) 00:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
A claim was posted in the article on 19 October 2012 that, "using the forged document as their authority, Catholic soldiers under papal command claimed Rome for the Vatican in the ninth century, and the city 'was not returned to Italy until the nineteenth century.'" Would the poster please explain what historical 9th-century event this is supposed to refer to. In the previous century, the city of Rome remained part of the Byzantine Empire (capital Constantinople) even when the Lombard Aistulf took Ravenna, the capital of the Byzantine exarchate in Italy, in 751. Soon after, Frankish troops, under the command of Pepin the Short (not "under papal command"), defeated the Lombards and founded the Papal States, which lasted until the 19th century. And this was still the 8th century. So what was the 9th-century event by which the city of Rome is supposed to have been then taken from "Italy" and "returned to Italy" in the 19th century? Besides, the Vatican was not the papal residence in the 9th century. Esoglou ( talk) 08:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
An editor says that unspecified "scholars" have pointed to Paul, younger brother of Pope Stephen II, as likely to be the forger of the Donation document ("a likely suspect"). As source for this statement, he cites an unspecified part of the 1922 book by Christopher B. Coleman, The Treatise of Lorenzo Valla on the Donation of Constantine. What seems to be an extract from the same book given here does not support the statement. In the extract, Coleman does not attribute the forgery to Paul himself. He says the style of the document recalls that of the chancellery of Pope Stephen and, "more particularly", of Pope Paul I, and adds: "In short, the language of the Donation seems to point to the papal chancellery as the place of its origin, and the pontificate of Paul I (757-767) as the most probable time." Coleman says nothing of the view of "scholars" (plural), but only gives his own view, declaring it most probable that the forgery belongs to Paul's papacy, not to when he was only the younger brother of Pope Stephen. Coleman says "it may well have been under (Pope Paul I's) influence that this document came into existence" - not that Paul himself forged it either before or after becoming pope. If the extract is indeed from the book given as basis for the statement inserted into the article, as it seems to be, the statement requires revision. Esoglou ( talk) 20:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Should it be named the Pseudo-Donation of Constantine since it's not geniune? [user:uknown]
Good. When you've finished that you can set about squaring the circle and inventing a perpetual motion machine.
Reading through Eusebius, one sees that Constantine did restore a number of churches and properties that had been confiscated from the Church. It may be helpful to include in this article what was actually given by Constantine to the Church (as testified by historical witness) in order to contrast it with the contents of the document to which this article pertains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.101.92.14 ( talk) 08:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone know which volume of the Annals contains the forgery denunciation of the Donation? There are well over 10 volumes, so narrowing down the citation would be useful. Sylvesterjay ( talk) 06:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
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What is the source for the notion that this was forged to protect Papal interest against the "Byzantines'Italic text"? True, it was first used by the Papacy in its arguments against Patriarch Michael Cerularius in 1054 and the events surrounding that schism, but it was already a couple of centuries old by then. There's no hint among the competing theoris as to its origin in the Catholic Encyclopedia of it having been composed for this purpose. Now, admittedly the public domain Catholic Encyclopedia is rather out of date and there may have been new research on the subject. If that's the case, where can we read about it? TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
That's an interesting idea, but can you point us to an independent source? See, the problem is that the Papacy didn't actually use the document in the 9th century, but waited until the disputes of the 11th. That's quite a span of time. If you have credible information sources that say differently, please cite them. TCC (talk) (contribs) 18:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The first of these is simply the text of the document, and there's nothing in the rest that can really justify such a definitive statement as you've made here. There's at least as good a chance that it was made by some Frankish cleric as Roman since it was they who first quoted it, and however it was later employed Rome did not use it in the disputes involving Charlemagne. (In fact, it seems to have been written to back up some land grants from Pepin a generation earlier.) The Catholic Encyclopedia article actually does a pretty good job of presenting all sides of the argument over its exact origin. (No possibility is mentioned there of the document being genuine.) It is not at all a simple problem. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
That's right, but that means the document was intended to bolster the claims of the Carolingians, not the Papacy as you wrote, and goes further to support a Frankish rather than a Roman origin. Furthermore, it's just one possibility among several for the original purpose of the document. I have no objection to it being mentioned, but if it's going to be brought up at all I think it should be discussed more fully. I'll see if I'm able to devote any attention to it over the next week or so. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
It's a plausible theory. If there was ever any evidence that the Papacy used it in this way, I'd agree with you. But there isn't. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Look, when facts conflict with theories, it's the facts that must prevail no matter how attractive the theory is. The fact is that the Papacy did not use this document until 1054. Others may have, but not the Pope, and to advance Carolingian claims and not the Papacy's. All the sources agree on this fact, and the article should reflect that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:27, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how you could interpret either me here or the available sources to as if they were saying the document "sat on a shelf" for 300 years. No one said the document went unused, only that the Papacy made no use of it. Yes it was used, but not by the Pope and not for the reasons you give: on that the sources all agree. And yes, it was probably in a dispute with the "Byzantines", and yes, over the Imperial titles to which the Carolingians had no rights, strictly speaking. All this militates much more strongly toward the Franks than to Rome. The sources all agree on that too.
As I said, you have an interesting theory, but as you present it here it's both speculative and falls under the rubric of original research which ought not be here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
According to Norman Cantor, the first record of and the first usage of the Donation is in the 750's. It was presented by the Pope to Pepin III to legitimize the Pope's coronation of Pepin to replace the Merengovian kings. The Papacy hoped to thus establish the doctrine that earthly kings were subject to the approval or approbation of the Church. The Donation of Pepin (the land claims discussed earlier) were payback from Pepin to the Papacy for placing him on a throne he had no legitimate claim to under the doctrine of personal inheritance that was then the norm. Elde 07:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I think Ncholas of Cusa should be named as well for giving the first philologic arguments which showed that it was a falsification (see e.g. [ [1]]). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.32.5.229 ( talk) 02:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Generally an encyclopedia article gives more than an offhand clue what the article is about within the first paragraph, the lead section or the first sentence. Reading just the first paragraph of this article the reader will take away nothing about what was forged. Please, if you are en editor of this article, at least give the reader information about what was forged in the first paragraph. It's actually important. -- KP Botany ( talk) 23:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Thanks. -- KP Botany ( talk) 00:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
A claim was posted in the article on 19 October 2012 that, "using the forged document as their authority, Catholic soldiers under papal command claimed Rome for the Vatican in the ninth century, and the city 'was not returned to Italy until the nineteenth century.'" Would the poster please explain what historical 9th-century event this is supposed to refer to. In the previous century, the city of Rome remained part of the Byzantine Empire (capital Constantinople) even when the Lombard Aistulf took Ravenna, the capital of the Byzantine exarchate in Italy, in 751. Soon after, Frankish troops, under the command of Pepin the Short (not "under papal command"), defeated the Lombards and founded the Papal States, which lasted until the 19th century. And this was still the 8th century. So what was the 9th-century event by which the city of Rome is supposed to have been then taken from "Italy" and "returned to Italy" in the 19th century? Besides, the Vatican was not the papal residence in the 9th century. Esoglou ( talk) 08:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
An editor says that unspecified "scholars" have pointed to Paul, younger brother of Pope Stephen II, as likely to be the forger of the Donation document ("a likely suspect"). As source for this statement, he cites an unspecified part of the 1922 book by Christopher B. Coleman, The Treatise of Lorenzo Valla on the Donation of Constantine. What seems to be an extract from the same book given here does not support the statement. In the extract, Coleman does not attribute the forgery to Paul himself. He says the style of the document recalls that of the chancellery of Pope Stephen and, "more particularly", of Pope Paul I, and adds: "In short, the language of the Donation seems to point to the papal chancellery as the place of its origin, and the pontificate of Paul I (757-767) as the most probable time." Coleman says nothing of the view of "scholars" (plural), but only gives his own view, declaring it most probable that the forgery belongs to Paul's papacy, not to when he was only the younger brother of Pope Stephen. Coleman says "it may well have been under (Pope Paul I's) influence that this document came into existence" - not that Paul himself forged it either before or after becoming pope. If the extract is indeed from the book given as basis for the statement inserted into the article, as it seems to be, the statement requires revision. Esoglou ( talk) 20:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Should it be named the Pseudo-Donation of Constantine since it's not geniune? [user:uknown]
Good. When you've finished that you can set about squaring the circle and inventing a perpetual motion machine.
Reading through Eusebius, one sees that Constantine did restore a number of churches and properties that had been confiscated from the Church. It may be helpful to include in this article what was actually given by Constantine to the Church (as testified by historical witness) in order to contrast it with the contents of the document to which this article pertains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.101.92.14 ( talk) 08:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone know which volume of the Annals contains the forgery denunciation of the Donation? There are well over 10 volumes, so narrowing down the citation would be useful. Sylvesterjay ( talk) 06:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)