This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Is Dolley Madison, née Todd, any relation to Mary Lincoln, née Todd? -- Angr ( t· c) 08:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
No, Dolley was born Dolley Payne. She acquired the "Todd" from her first husband, John Todd, Jr. - Nunh-huh 07:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Was her husband, John Todd, related to Mary Lincoln though? hannah.joy. ( talk) 18:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
There is a bio. pic. on PBS right now dealing with the life of Dolly Madison; I am not surprised that she nearly lost custody of her son, John Payne Todd. Does anyone know where i could find some references for this citation? It also seemed to be rather unthinkable during her life-time to marry outside of one's religion. Has anyone heard of this before?
Dolley's tenure as First Lady during the pivotal years of Madison's presidency - 1809 to 1817 - are hardly covered in this article. Dolley is widely credited with essentially creating the role of First Lady, understanding the importance of that role in the success of her husband's administration. She held informal soirees at the White House that served an important role in furthering discussion of a bitterly divided Congress. She was the first to decorate the White House in a manner befitting a residence of the head of state. Her role in holding the fort at the White House during the British incursion into Washington is well documented and brought her a high reputation in America as a patriot of the first order. She had a significant role in bolstering Monroe's reputation, one of the highest for any early American president.
It was said by Cjhf';lke's opponent in the election of 1808, that he was beaten in the election because he was up against Monroe and Dolley, and that he would have won if he were only up against Monroe; showing the high regard Dolley was held in Washington.
Tony ( talk) 21:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
According to an episode of "The Presidents" that recently aired on the History Channel, ice cream was a very popular dessert in the Madison White House. And Dolley's favorite flavor was oyster! Apparently, pistachio ice cream hadn't been discovered yet. :-) Randomstew ( talk) 13:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
She acted as the first lady during the Thomas Jefferson administration? That is an odd statement. In what way, exactly, did she act as the First Lady?
her husben james madison died then she remarried to another man
[?] James Madison, was Dolley's 2nd, and last, husband. She did not remarry after Madison's death.
What's up with the image here? Dolley's fat or father?
I can find no source online for her being a Dandridge, after noting that both this page and the Martha Waashington give that as part of their names and searching for relationships, i found no pages outside Wiki using Dandridge with Dolley. I'm removing it, pending citation. ThuranX ( talk) 06:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor did a major re-write on 8 September. The editor added much information, but much of the content was not actually about the subject of the article or was POV commentary unstuiable for an encyclopedia article. I started an editing run through to remove most of the clearly improper stuff, but am too tired to properly finish at this time.
One thing that should be done is to go back to the version before the IP started editing and rescue any properly sourced content that got lost. -- The Red Pen of Doom 06:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know this? Ttenchantr ( talk) 05:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that user Ebanony made some edits to the article in which it was repeatedly reiterated that Dolley Madison owned slaves and benefitted from the service of slaves. While not inaccurate, as far as I know, the various mentions of this fact seemed tacked-on and had little to nothing to do with any of the events described. It could be encyclopedic to mention that the Stuart portrait of Washington was physically removed by slaves, if properly cited. For the time being, I have removed all of Ebanony's edits, as well as the subsequent edit by Meanoldmike, since it appeared to be made mainly in response to the former. I also reverted two instances of (unrelated, AFAIK) vandalism. Ebanony, if you feel it's important that the article include Dolley Madison's involvement with slavery, please offer some sources showing that this is an important facet to the woman's notability. -- DavidK93 ( talk) 22:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
References
kind of unclear, I think a foot-note is needed... :-/ hannah.joy. ( talk) 19:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe there is an issue with the factual accuracy of an individual named "Magraw" assisting in the rescuing of the George Washington portrait. Paul Jennings is credited as the african american who assisted in the rescue of the famous portrait. Article was amended with sources cited, will remove the reference to Magraw unless someone can provide some documentation crediting this individual. -- Karioth ( talk) 17:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Deleted two paragraphs cited only as eyewitness accounts in Federal Republican, having to do with British entry to the city and burning of major buildings, including the White House. Belongs with main article on Burning of Capitol, or whatever it's called; not in this article on Dolley Madison. It's useful to note Paul Jennings' perspective, not only because he was a slave but because he later wrote about his life with Madison. Adding fuller information about the roles of slaves in relation to major historic figures is in keeping with current historiography, for example, in treatment at Montpelier as a public history site - the place and the website. Parkwells ( talk) 16:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
There's an overreliance on early White House historians, when fuller accounts of Dolley Madison's role and character should be available in the recent biographies listed. We need to reflect current scholarly writing for underrepresented groups and people; she was known in her own time as a significant character, but that doesn't come through in this article. Parkwells ( talk) 16:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Yellow Fever is not caused by poor sanitation as this article states. Yellow fever is caused by a virus that a very particular breed of mosquito carries. Humans get Yellow Fever after they are injected with the virus during the mosquito's blood meal. True, mosquitos breed in water. But the word, "sanitation" implies that the water contained organisms carried in human fecal matter and that Yellow Fever was caused by that. This is completely incorrect and should be changed in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.252.183.253 ( talk) 01:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
According to the Montpelier community and his grave stone, John Payne Todd was born in 1792, but this page list's his birthdate as 1790 and his younger brother as 1792. Does anyone know which is correct?
See: http://www.montpelier.org/explore/community/madisons_johnpaynetodd.php and http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1562
AJseagull1 ( talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
We can sniff and cavil about the reliability of Find-A-Grave, but for Pete's sake what's unreliable about the photograph of his gravestone that appears there? See http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=1562&PIpi=76922. Poihths ( talk) 16:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
No contemporary evidence supports the claim that her name was Dorothea. Her birth certificate states her name as Dolley (Allgor, page 416) and both of her most recent biographers (Catherine Allgor and Richard N. Cote) use Dolley, not Dorothea. I am changing the name to reflect current academic opinion Mragsdale ( talk) 20:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Respected sources agree that it was only by mistake that she was referred to as Dorthea or Dorothy- her correct name was Dolley, not Dolly. hannah.joy. ( talk) 18:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
It is very frustrating to see how scholarship on Dolly Madison refuses to allow the woman her own name! It is abundantly clear to anyone who takes a few minutes to research publications that mention her from her own time and shortly afterwards universally ignore the obvious error made on her birth certificate and respect her life-long preference for "Dolly," a preference known to and respected by all who knew her personally. That's particulary clear from over 100 instances of "Dolly" versus none at all for "Dolley" in her grandniece's book. Why can't the pedants un-pedantify themselves and give her back her own name as she knew it and used it all her life? And why do we have to follow in their footsteps like sheep - and blind sheep at that? (See http://books.google.com/books?id=5qgZAAAAYAAJ.) Poihths ( talk) 16:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Just to add: as I searched further, I find that the idea that Mrs. Madison's true first name was "Dolley" is very widespread; so much so that essentially no modern authority will accept anything else. Apparently it all goes back to an exhibition at the Smithsonian. See http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/workshops/legends/DMlegends.html. So I decided to do a little more digging. I took out a 48-hour trial account at the Rotunda system of the University of Virginia Press, which gives you acces to The Papers of Dolley Madison Digital Edition, ed. Holly C. Shulman. Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, Rotunda, 2008. I searched for instances of the word "Dolly." I found over a hundred instances in which she signed her own name that way, or people wrote her name that way in letters to her, or her name apppeared that way on legal or other documents. I then tried to search for "Dolley." That proved difficult, because the text search engine recovers text from the metadata as well as the original texts, and the metadata, in good pendantic form, is all spelled "Dolley." The system produced over 1800 documents, so I did not have time to go through them all. I randomly hit about 50 of them. In only one case did I find her spelling her own name as "Dolley." In no case did I find anyone who knew her personally spelling her name as "Dolley." The only cases I found were situations where her name was written by strangers - business correspondents and the like.
Bottom line: there are plenty of instances where she spelled her name as "Dolly." A random sampling turned up very few cases where she spelled her own name as "Dolley." I think there is a very reasonable case to be made here that the present concensus opinion needs to be carefully checked against as many original documents as possible. I think the present concensus is wrong.
Of course, I realize that all of this, for Wikipedia purposes, is nothing but "original research." I'm throwing it in the soup anyway for those who care about truth - even if it's only a matter of letting a historical figure have her own name back. Poihths ( talk) 22:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Re the Daguerreotype of Dolley in 1848 - was she the first First Lady to be photographed? I think that would be worth a mention. Valetude ( talk) 11:45, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Her name was Dolly, not Dolley. There is no evidence that she ever spelled her name Dolley. Some ignorant pedants found a purported birth certificate with her name misspelled, and have corrupted Wikipedia with this incorrect name. The section on the spelling has no citation for this wild claim. Randall Bart Talk 23:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to try to bring this article to GA in the next 2-3 months, both as a prelude to working on the James Madison article and as a contribution to the Gender gap task force. It'll be a few weeks before I really get started, but I thought I'd begin by leaving a note here to say hello and to ask for input from established editors of the page. What changes would you like to see here as I work?
A few preliminary things on my list:
Would be glad to hear the thoughts of any long-time pagewatchers. Looking forward to working with you, Khazar2 ( talk) 15:43, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
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Hello all!
This article has been chosen as this week's effort for WP:Discord's #team-b-vital channel, a collaborate effort to bring Vital articles up to a B class if possible, similar to WP:Articles for Improvement. This effort will run for up to seven days, ending early if the article is felt to be at B-class or impossible to further improve. Articles are chosen by a quick vote among interested chatters, with the goal of working together on interesting Vital articles that need improving.
Thank you! -- ferret ( talk) 00:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I had been working with an editor to update the language and make it more appropriate and humanizing, and even though those edits were not found to be in violation - a user monitoring this page has indicated that I cannot make the edits and instead need to, "Use the article's talk page to discuss the changes you want, why, and what sourcing backs the new language you propose."
I propose the following changes:
1) Replace: "she directed her personal slave Paul Jennings to save it."
With: "it was one of the men she enslaved, Paul Jennings, who saved it at her direction."
2) Replace: "[...] which was partially relieved by selling off the plantation and slaves and the sale of her late husband's papers." <- This is also a run on sentence
With: "[...] which was partially relieved by selling off land and her late husband's papers. She additionally supplemented her income by selling off members of the enslaved families on her estate."
These two (2) changes convey the same information, but remove the run on sentence as well as changes the language that inaccurately dehumanizes the individuals it refers to.
Additionally, even though I have only applied this revision to two sentences toward the beginning of this article - this revision should ideally be applied to the article in its entirety (where there are numerous references like the ones I've noted above).
Please revise.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Ghgfrujbftjtf (
talk •
contribs)
23:21, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Re: your statement - "You have any sourcing that Dolley Madison personally enslaved Paul Jennings? The language changes the meaning." --- The article currently says (without any edits), " she directed her personal slave Paul Jennings to save it." Based on your statement, you've indicated that the current language needs to be changed. I am also proposing that it be changed.
Additionally, I am willing to make the edits to the 14 other places using the word "slave" - but on your talk page, you indicated that I was not to make any additional edits to the page myself and that I instead needed to propose edits here.
Please clarify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghgfrujbftjtf ( talk • contribs) 23:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Someone who is termed a "slave" is by definition, "enslaved." Therefore, if Dolley Madison held Jennings as her "personal slave" (which is the current language) - that language would suggest he was a person that she enslaved. I will seek additional assistance here, so that we can get an additional opinion here without further misunderstanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghgfrujbftjtf ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Notifying talk page that Ghgfrujbftjtf has opened Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Dolley Madison (Prematurely, in my view). -- ferret ( talk) 01:12, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Is this question unique to Dolley Madison, or is it applicable to wealthy White Southern American historical figures before the American Civil War? I suggest checking with WT:WikiProject United States or some other project to see whether there is a standard or MOS guideline. If there isn't a guideline, maybe there should be. Robert McClenon ( talk) 04:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Is Dolley Madison, née Todd, any relation to Mary Lincoln, née Todd? -- Angr ( t· c) 08:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
No, Dolley was born Dolley Payne. She acquired the "Todd" from her first husband, John Todd, Jr. - Nunh-huh 07:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Was her husband, John Todd, related to Mary Lincoln though? hannah.joy. ( talk) 18:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
There is a bio. pic. on PBS right now dealing with the life of Dolly Madison; I am not surprised that she nearly lost custody of her son, John Payne Todd. Does anyone know where i could find some references for this citation? It also seemed to be rather unthinkable during her life-time to marry outside of one's religion. Has anyone heard of this before?
Dolley's tenure as First Lady during the pivotal years of Madison's presidency - 1809 to 1817 - are hardly covered in this article. Dolley is widely credited with essentially creating the role of First Lady, understanding the importance of that role in the success of her husband's administration. She held informal soirees at the White House that served an important role in furthering discussion of a bitterly divided Congress. She was the first to decorate the White House in a manner befitting a residence of the head of state. Her role in holding the fort at the White House during the British incursion into Washington is well documented and brought her a high reputation in America as a patriot of the first order. She had a significant role in bolstering Monroe's reputation, one of the highest for any early American president.
It was said by Cjhf';lke's opponent in the election of 1808, that he was beaten in the election because he was up against Monroe and Dolley, and that he would have won if he were only up against Monroe; showing the high regard Dolley was held in Washington.
Tony ( talk) 21:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
According to an episode of "The Presidents" that recently aired on the History Channel, ice cream was a very popular dessert in the Madison White House. And Dolley's favorite flavor was oyster! Apparently, pistachio ice cream hadn't been discovered yet. :-) Randomstew ( talk) 13:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
She acted as the first lady during the Thomas Jefferson administration? That is an odd statement. In what way, exactly, did she act as the First Lady?
her husben james madison died then she remarried to another man
[?] James Madison, was Dolley's 2nd, and last, husband. She did not remarry after Madison's death.
What's up with the image here? Dolley's fat or father?
I can find no source online for her being a Dandridge, after noting that both this page and the Martha Waashington give that as part of their names and searching for relationships, i found no pages outside Wiki using Dandridge with Dolley. I'm removing it, pending citation. ThuranX ( talk) 06:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor did a major re-write on 8 September. The editor added much information, but much of the content was not actually about the subject of the article or was POV commentary unstuiable for an encyclopedia article. I started an editing run through to remove most of the clearly improper stuff, but am too tired to properly finish at this time.
One thing that should be done is to go back to the version before the IP started editing and rescue any properly sourced content that got lost. -- The Red Pen of Doom 06:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know this? Ttenchantr ( talk) 05:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that user Ebanony made some edits to the article in which it was repeatedly reiterated that Dolley Madison owned slaves and benefitted from the service of slaves. While not inaccurate, as far as I know, the various mentions of this fact seemed tacked-on and had little to nothing to do with any of the events described. It could be encyclopedic to mention that the Stuart portrait of Washington was physically removed by slaves, if properly cited. For the time being, I have removed all of Ebanony's edits, as well as the subsequent edit by Meanoldmike, since it appeared to be made mainly in response to the former. I also reverted two instances of (unrelated, AFAIK) vandalism. Ebanony, if you feel it's important that the article include Dolley Madison's involvement with slavery, please offer some sources showing that this is an important facet to the woman's notability. -- DavidK93 ( talk) 22:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
References
kind of unclear, I think a foot-note is needed... :-/ hannah.joy. ( talk) 19:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe there is an issue with the factual accuracy of an individual named "Magraw" assisting in the rescuing of the George Washington portrait. Paul Jennings is credited as the african american who assisted in the rescue of the famous portrait. Article was amended with sources cited, will remove the reference to Magraw unless someone can provide some documentation crediting this individual. -- Karioth ( talk) 17:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Deleted two paragraphs cited only as eyewitness accounts in Federal Republican, having to do with British entry to the city and burning of major buildings, including the White House. Belongs with main article on Burning of Capitol, or whatever it's called; not in this article on Dolley Madison. It's useful to note Paul Jennings' perspective, not only because he was a slave but because he later wrote about his life with Madison. Adding fuller information about the roles of slaves in relation to major historic figures is in keeping with current historiography, for example, in treatment at Montpelier as a public history site - the place and the website. Parkwells ( talk) 16:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
There's an overreliance on early White House historians, when fuller accounts of Dolley Madison's role and character should be available in the recent biographies listed. We need to reflect current scholarly writing for underrepresented groups and people; she was known in her own time as a significant character, but that doesn't come through in this article. Parkwells ( talk) 16:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Yellow Fever is not caused by poor sanitation as this article states. Yellow fever is caused by a virus that a very particular breed of mosquito carries. Humans get Yellow Fever after they are injected with the virus during the mosquito's blood meal. True, mosquitos breed in water. But the word, "sanitation" implies that the water contained organisms carried in human fecal matter and that Yellow Fever was caused by that. This is completely incorrect and should be changed in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.252.183.253 ( talk) 01:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
According to the Montpelier community and his grave stone, John Payne Todd was born in 1792, but this page list's his birthdate as 1790 and his younger brother as 1792. Does anyone know which is correct?
See: http://www.montpelier.org/explore/community/madisons_johnpaynetodd.php and http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1562
AJseagull1 ( talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
We can sniff and cavil about the reliability of Find-A-Grave, but for Pete's sake what's unreliable about the photograph of his gravestone that appears there? See http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=1562&PIpi=76922. Poihths ( talk) 16:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
No contemporary evidence supports the claim that her name was Dorothea. Her birth certificate states her name as Dolley (Allgor, page 416) and both of her most recent biographers (Catherine Allgor and Richard N. Cote) use Dolley, not Dorothea. I am changing the name to reflect current academic opinion Mragsdale ( talk) 20:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Respected sources agree that it was only by mistake that she was referred to as Dorthea or Dorothy- her correct name was Dolley, not Dolly. hannah.joy. ( talk) 18:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
It is very frustrating to see how scholarship on Dolly Madison refuses to allow the woman her own name! It is abundantly clear to anyone who takes a few minutes to research publications that mention her from her own time and shortly afterwards universally ignore the obvious error made on her birth certificate and respect her life-long preference for "Dolly," a preference known to and respected by all who knew her personally. That's particulary clear from over 100 instances of "Dolly" versus none at all for "Dolley" in her grandniece's book. Why can't the pedants un-pedantify themselves and give her back her own name as she knew it and used it all her life? And why do we have to follow in their footsteps like sheep - and blind sheep at that? (See http://books.google.com/books?id=5qgZAAAAYAAJ.) Poihths ( talk) 16:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Just to add: as I searched further, I find that the idea that Mrs. Madison's true first name was "Dolley" is very widespread; so much so that essentially no modern authority will accept anything else. Apparently it all goes back to an exhibition at the Smithsonian. See http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/workshops/legends/DMlegends.html. So I decided to do a little more digging. I took out a 48-hour trial account at the Rotunda system of the University of Virginia Press, which gives you acces to The Papers of Dolley Madison Digital Edition, ed. Holly C. Shulman. Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, Rotunda, 2008. I searched for instances of the word "Dolly." I found over a hundred instances in which she signed her own name that way, or people wrote her name that way in letters to her, or her name apppeared that way on legal or other documents. I then tried to search for "Dolley." That proved difficult, because the text search engine recovers text from the metadata as well as the original texts, and the metadata, in good pendantic form, is all spelled "Dolley." The system produced over 1800 documents, so I did not have time to go through them all. I randomly hit about 50 of them. In only one case did I find her spelling her own name as "Dolley." In no case did I find anyone who knew her personally spelling her name as "Dolley." The only cases I found were situations where her name was written by strangers - business correspondents and the like.
Bottom line: there are plenty of instances where she spelled her name as "Dolly." A random sampling turned up very few cases where she spelled her own name as "Dolley." I think there is a very reasonable case to be made here that the present concensus opinion needs to be carefully checked against as many original documents as possible. I think the present concensus is wrong.
Of course, I realize that all of this, for Wikipedia purposes, is nothing but "original research." I'm throwing it in the soup anyway for those who care about truth - even if it's only a matter of letting a historical figure have her own name back. Poihths ( talk) 22:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Re the Daguerreotype of Dolley in 1848 - was she the first First Lady to be photographed? I think that would be worth a mention. Valetude ( talk) 11:45, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Her name was Dolly, not Dolley. There is no evidence that she ever spelled her name Dolley. Some ignorant pedants found a purported birth certificate with her name misspelled, and have corrupted Wikipedia with this incorrect name. The section on the spelling has no citation for this wild claim. Randall Bart Talk 23:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to try to bring this article to GA in the next 2-3 months, both as a prelude to working on the James Madison article and as a contribution to the Gender gap task force. It'll be a few weeks before I really get started, but I thought I'd begin by leaving a note here to say hello and to ask for input from established editors of the page. What changes would you like to see here as I work?
A few preliminary things on my list:
Would be glad to hear the thoughts of any long-time pagewatchers. Looking forward to working with you, Khazar2 ( talk) 15:43, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:40, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
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Hello all!
This article has been chosen as this week's effort for WP:Discord's #team-b-vital channel, a collaborate effort to bring Vital articles up to a B class if possible, similar to WP:Articles for Improvement. This effort will run for up to seven days, ending early if the article is felt to be at B-class or impossible to further improve. Articles are chosen by a quick vote among interested chatters, with the goal of working together on interesting Vital articles that need improving.
Thank you! -- ferret ( talk) 00:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I had been working with an editor to update the language and make it more appropriate and humanizing, and even though those edits were not found to be in violation - a user monitoring this page has indicated that I cannot make the edits and instead need to, "Use the article's talk page to discuss the changes you want, why, and what sourcing backs the new language you propose."
I propose the following changes:
1) Replace: "she directed her personal slave Paul Jennings to save it."
With: "it was one of the men she enslaved, Paul Jennings, who saved it at her direction."
2) Replace: "[...] which was partially relieved by selling off the plantation and slaves and the sale of her late husband's papers." <- This is also a run on sentence
With: "[...] which was partially relieved by selling off land and her late husband's papers. She additionally supplemented her income by selling off members of the enslaved families on her estate."
These two (2) changes convey the same information, but remove the run on sentence as well as changes the language that inaccurately dehumanizes the individuals it refers to.
Additionally, even though I have only applied this revision to two sentences toward the beginning of this article - this revision should ideally be applied to the article in its entirety (where there are numerous references like the ones I've noted above).
Please revise.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Ghgfrujbftjtf (
talk •
contribs)
23:21, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Re: your statement - "You have any sourcing that Dolley Madison personally enslaved Paul Jennings? The language changes the meaning." --- The article currently says (without any edits), " she directed her personal slave Paul Jennings to save it." Based on your statement, you've indicated that the current language needs to be changed. I am also proposing that it be changed.
Additionally, I am willing to make the edits to the 14 other places using the word "slave" - but on your talk page, you indicated that I was not to make any additional edits to the page myself and that I instead needed to propose edits here.
Please clarify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghgfrujbftjtf ( talk • contribs) 23:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Someone who is termed a "slave" is by definition, "enslaved." Therefore, if Dolley Madison held Jennings as her "personal slave" (which is the current language) - that language would suggest he was a person that she enslaved. I will seek additional assistance here, so that we can get an additional opinion here without further misunderstanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghgfrujbftjtf ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Notifying talk page that Ghgfrujbftjtf has opened Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Dolley Madison (Prematurely, in my view). -- ferret ( talk) 01:12, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Is this question unique to Dolley Madison, or is it applicable to wealthy White Southern American historical figures before the American Civil War? I suggest checking with WT:WikiProject United States or some other project to see whether there is a standard or MOS guideline. If there isn't a guideline, maybe there should be. Robert McClenon ( talk) 04:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)