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I don't know if there is somebody else with more time on their hands than I have and who also reads the Times Higher Education. If there is, you may like to include something about the debate that has gone on recently in the UK about (1) the relative merits of the PhD and the professional doctorate (the general thrust of argument being the professional doctorates do not match the standards for a PhD, a claim vehemently opposed by departments offering professional doctorates), and (2) Kevin Sharpe's article in which he argues that the standard of the UK PhD is falling and no longer represents what it used to represent.-- Oxonian2006 ( talk) 22:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Both Kevin Sharpe and the commentators responding to his article on the Times Higher Education Supplement site make good points. On one hand, I sympathize with the idea that a PhD degree should not be an open-ended research program. On the other hand, if that is the case and much of the expectations surrounding PhD-level research have now been de facto transferred to post-doctoral fellowships, then universities worldwide should acknowledge that explicitly as Dr. Sharpe suggests by formally requiring a post-doc for entry-level faculty positions . Similarly, if the standard of "significant and substantial contribution to existing knowledge" is to be enforced, then we must necessarily accept that the number of PhD's awarded each year will necessarily be small (there are only so many "significant and substantial" contributions that can be made to knowledge in each given field at any given time). Tougher standards, meaning also higher failure/dropout rates, seem to conflict however with the push by governments everywhere to increase the number of doctorates every year, when a research doctorate in fact has never been meant to be a "mass degree" like an undergraduate bachelor's or a secondary school diploma !
Perhaps the discussion on this talk page should serve to form the basis for a section on criticism of the modern PhD degree, which the Wikipedia article is lacking at the moment. What say you ? 200.168.21.198 ( talk) 22:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
You simply can't make pat statements about time to graduation, especially across universities and countries. For my candidacy exam, my university required four examiners at the minimum. Each examiner first gave a series of essay questions that were designed to take 8 to 12 hours to complete for each examiner. These were "closed book". I was placed in a room with a school laptop that had not internet capability and no other materials in the room. After I completed this week of 12 hours per day writing, I was then questioned by them in an oral defense that lasted 3 hours. I was always required to take 48 hours of coursework. My research component took longer than expected because I worked until my manuscripts produced work that were actually important to the field. I also designed my work myself from the ground up. Folks that walk into a lab doing groundbreaking work and simply do the leg work and write some up have it easy. By the time I was done, due to my own stubbornness in wanting my work to be very original and important, no one on my committee was qualified to properly examine me because my abilities exceeded their own. They deliberated for about 15 seconds prior to awarding me my doctorate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.19.159.87 ( talk) 01:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This statement seems to make no sense, especially since the "thus" does not refer to anything: "The doctorate of philosophy as it exists today thus originated as a doctorate in the liberal arts at the Friedrich-Wilhelms Universität, the buildings of which are today used by the Humboldt University of Berlin, becoming common in large parts of the world in the 20th century." Did someone just drop that in there? HullIntegrity ( talk) 19:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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What is that one woman holding? A muffin? Hard to see the gown behind that reflecting glass. Improvements could be made here. Dig deeper talk 16:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
The article starts by stating a PhD is "the highest academic degree awarded by universities in most English-speaking countries". This is not true for England at any rate, as the degrees of D.Litt., D.D., D.Mus. and D.Sc. are considered higher degrees than a Ph.D. or D.Phil.
See the section about higher doctorates on another page.
In fact, a Ph.D. is the lowest doctoral degree awarded by universities.
If it is true that it is the highest academic degree awarded in most English-speaking countries then it needs some kind of evidence to back it up. The national variations section of the page only gives information about three English-speaking countries (if you include India).
Perhaps it should say "many" instead of most, and then go on to say that in some English-speaking countries higher doctorates are awarded and give a link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.169.133 ( talk) 10:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
I've heard of PhD (i.e. got one), but I've never come across "DPhil"; is there any difference in usage when people use PhD and DPhil? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.143.212.3 ( talk) 13:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
There has recently been some editing about what the correct abbreviation to use is. The Manual of Style says, quite specifically, "The Manual of Style on abbreviations, above, eschews the use of periods with acronyms (M.D., Ph.D.)." The abbreviation "Ph.D." is explicitly said to be contrary to Wikipedia style, while the table that follows gives PhD as the correct abbreviation. We should follow that on this page.
As noted in the Doctor of Philosophy#Terminology section in this article, both Oxford and Merriam-Webster give PhD, with only Oxford US English giving Ph.D. However, this is not a clear-cut US/World English division, as shown by Merriam-Webster. They're is also a division between the Chicago Manual of Style, which uses PhD, and Associated Press, which prefers Ph.D. [4]
It is thus clear that 1) PhD is the standard usage in British English and 2) both PhD and Ph.D. are acceptable in US English. In addition to the above guidelines from the Manual of Style on abbreviations, the guidelines in MOS:COMMONALITY would imply that the universally-acceptable variant should be used rather than the US-specific variant.
My suggestion, therefore, is that while references to Ph.D. as an alternative abbreviation should be retained, the standard abbreviation used in the text of this article should, in keeping with the Manual of Style and usage accepted in all variants of English, be PhD throughout. Robminchin ( talk) 15:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuznetsov N.V. ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
On June 19, 2013, for the first time in the Russian Federation, defenses were held for the Ph.D. degree, granted by St. Petersburg University, instead of Candidate of Sciences degrees, awarded by the State Supreme Certification Commission. Renat Yuldashev, the graduate student of the Department of Applied Cybernetics of the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics of St. Petersburg State University, was the first to defend his thesis according to new rules for the Ph.D. degree. In preparing the defense procedure, it was used the experience of a joint Russian-Finnish scientific and educational program organized in 2007 at the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics of St. Petersburg State University and the Faculty of Information Technology of the University of Jyväskylä, and the co-chairs of the program -- N.V. Kuznetsov,
G.A. Leonov,
P. Neittaanmäki, acted as supervisors of the dissertation.
References:
nk ( talk) 10:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
For those in Germany who wish to become university professors, after the Ph.D. another major undertaking is necessary, the Habilitationsschrift. It requires a major publication and often an oral examination by a university faculty.
Recently, I understand, there has been a determination that Ph.D.'s from American universities are not permitted to use the honorific title "Dr." legally. Prof. Soandso, Ph.D. is okay. This strikes me a weird! In Germany only those with doctorates from a German or EU university are permitted this honorific. All sorts of people in Germany have doctorates, but in the university those entitled to use the honorific "Prof. Dr." before their names are the real thing. Jim Lacey ( talk) 00:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.35.169 ( talk) 00:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I think something should be said about Aspirantur in Germany. -- evrik ( talk) 19:17, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The lede sentence of this article states that the PhD is the "highest" academic degree. That's wrong. In the U.S., there are other degrees that are considered to be equivalent to the PhD in terms of qualifications for various positions and awards e.g., EdD, DBA, MD. In the United Kingdom and Russia, there are the higher doctorates. In Germany and Austria, there is the habilitation degree. This is all discussed in the terminal degree article that User:Robminchin dismissed as "US-specific;" the phrase may be most prevalent in the U.S. but the concept certainly isn't. In any case, that article also makes it abundantly clear that labeling this degree as the "highest" (whatever that means) is wrong and we need to find wording that is accurate. ElKevbo ( talk) 02:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
(@ Robminchin: Please participate in this discussion. ElKevbo ( talk) 02:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC))
In Japan, there are two distinct degrees: academic doctor and professional doctorate. The only "doctor" in professional degree in Japan is Juris Doctor.
So, a recipient of doctorate in disciplines such as engineering and pharmacy is not the person "where professional degrees are usually awarded in the western countries." We only give, say, a degree of doctor of engineering (博士(工学)) to a recipient who has trained academic skills and defended his/her dissertation in engineering fields.
Isn't the current article based on prejudice against doctors degree in non-western countries?
Doctors degree in Japan (博士): https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%9A%E5%A3%AB
Professional doctorate in Japan (専門職学位): https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%82%E9%96%80%E8%81%B7%E5%AD%A6%E4%BD%8D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akonno ( talk • contribs) 02:06, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Over the next few weeks, who would like to work on the requirements section with me? I'd like to try and make each paragraph more exact, with citations, in order to better assist people thinking to take one on, either formally or informally. I plan to take as exact a criteria as possible over to Wikiversity, to assist independent researchers there. Regards, Leighblackall ( talk) 00:28, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
+1 I'm in. It's not particularly clear right now... -- Davecormier ( talk) 02:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know of a list of people who have earned or been admitted to a PhD program without having previous upper level education experience? I noticed that Jane Goodall managed this, and was wondering if there were others.
96.50.178.195 ( talk) 21:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
often those with an honorary degree, often famous musicians or human rights activists -- Hypo Mix ( talk) 03:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
The majority of assertions in the United States section do not have their sources cited making me think its just conjecture from a single person. Ironically you'd think a person editing an article on PhDs would know better...I added fact tags, hopefully someone can back these claims up. Random2001 ( talk) 14:42, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
The statement for "There are 282 universities in the United States that award the PhD degree" seems suspect. Specifically, the associated reference makes it clear that "282 is the sum of all three categories of doctoral universities". Looking at the Carnegie data sheets ( https://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/downloads/CCIHE2021-PublicData.xlsx) the "three categories of doctoral universities" seems to be from the Carnegie "Basic classifications", which have three categories. That, however, looks at the overwhelming emphasis of an institution, not the highest level degree they award. Thus, for example we find Bryn Mawr listed as a category 21, "Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus". Bryn Mawr, however, awards PhDs in Math, Physics, Chemistry, Social Work, among other fields (e.g., https://www.brynmawr.edu/gsas/programs/graduate-program-mathematics/degree-requirements). Instead, the " Graduate Instructional Program Classification" should be used. Per that, Bryn Mawr is category 16: "Research Doctoral: Humanities/social sciences-dominant". Note that there are 7 such categories. My quick spreadsheet work shows that there are 709 schools that are doctoral using that metric (any of the 7 categories). Note that not all of these are PhD, for example, some might be DSW or EdD only--thus I'm going to change it to "more than 282". JustAnotherNewYorker ( talk) 23:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
An unregistered editor has begun an edit war to remove the EdD from this article, claiming that "it is in no way equivalent to a Ph.D., D.M.A., or S.J.D." First, it's important to note that the specific sentence that they are edit-warring over simply says that "Universities sometimes award other types of doctorate besides the PhD, such as..." It's ridiculous to claim that the EdD is not a doctorate and is not awarded by universities. Moreover, if this person is claiming that these degrees are radically different then unfortunately our article about the EdD has several paragraphs and high quality sources that favorably compare the EdD and PhD and note that many organizations, including the National Science Foundation and other U.S. federal agencies, view the two degrees as equivalent in many ways.
I would also like to know why only the EdD is being removed from the article while other degrees mentioned in the lede are not. What's so special about the DMA and SJD that they're permitted to remain as examples of other doctorates?
In any case, it's inappropriate to edit war to remove this information and it should remain in the article while this is being discussed. ElKevbo ( talk) 00:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
It didn't "apply" to me or my edits until your involvement. That pretty much tells me that you instigated something with me and now want to blame me for something I did not start. But it's beside the point now because we are on the talk page.
I don't consider the J.D. an edge case (it is called the "Doctor" of Jurisprudence, after all, even though it's only a glorified bachelor's or master's degree). And the M.D. and D.N.P. may be "unequivocally" APPLIED doctorates, but that isn't what this is about. The point is, all of these, along with the Ed.D., are professional doctorates. Yes, they are technically doctorates, but they don't belong in an introduction on the Ph.D., which, in the original phrase above, is clearly meant to indicate equivalents to the Ph.D. that universities may award. I don't see why you are so opposed to the difference between them. You seem to be looking for an argument where none was intended. 66.44.62.69 ( talk) 04:17, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
I've said what I had to say and stand by everything I wrote, regardless of the bold stupidity and disregard evidenced in these responses. The Ed.D. is an applied, professional doctorate, in no way equivalent to the Ph.D. or its analogs, and, contextually, does not belong in this article lede for all the reasons given. Nothing said here changes that obvious fact, and having two supposed editors be wrong about something so obvious does not in any way make such incorrect opinions correct or valid.
And no, edits do not make an edit war. Incompetent, silly full-time "registered" editors who attack those who clearly know better, however, certainly do.
66.44.62.69 ( talk) 05:56, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, once again, for proving the complete validity and accuracy of my previous comments, and your apparent inability to read. 66.44.62.69 ( talk) 18:18, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
I could always bring it back if that's your preference. You know what you are and I've said plainly what you are, so you shouldn't equate deletion of something with a retraction, if that's what you're doing. There's no ambiguity here.
You and whoever else that is "waiting" for my participation in your stupid stunt will be waiting a lifetime. So, I'll repeat what's obvious: thank you, once again, for proving the complete validity and accuracy of my previous comments, and your apparent inability to read. 66.44.62.69 ( talk) 00:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I don't know if there is somebody else with more time on their hands than I have and who also reads the Times Higher Education. If there is, you may like to include something about the debate that has gone on recently in the UK about (1) the relative merits of the PhD and the professional doctorate (the general thrust of argument being the professional doctorates do not match the standards for a PhD, a claim vehemently opposed by departments offering professional doctorates), and (2) Kevin Sharpe's article in which he argues that the standard of the UK PhD is falling and no longer represents what it used to represent.-- Oxonian2006 ( talk) 22:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Both Kevin Sharpe and the commentators responding to his article on the Times Higher Education Supplement site make good points. On one hand, I sympathize with the idea that a PhD degree should not be an open-ended research program. On the other hand, if that is the case and much of the expectations surrounding PhD-level research have now been de facto transferred to post-doctoral fellowships, then universities worldwide should acknowledge that explicitly as Dr. Sharpe suggests by formally requiring a post-doc for entry-level faculty positions . Similarly, if the standard of "significant and substantial contribution to existing knowledge" is to be enforced, then we must necessarily accept that the number of PhD's awarded each year will necessarily be small (there are only so many "significant and substantial" contributions that can be made to knowledge in each given field at any given time). Tougher standards, meaning also higher failure/dropout rates, seem to conflict however with the push by governments everywhere to increase the number of doctorates every year, when a research doctorate in fact has never been meant to be a "mass degree" like an undergraduate bachelor's or a secondary school diploma !
Perhaps the discussion on this talk page should serve to form the basis for a section on criticism of the modern PhD degree, which the Wikipedia article is lacking at the moment. What say you ? 200.168.21.198 ( talk) 22:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
You simply can't make pat statements about time to graduation, especially across universities and countries. For my candidacy exam, my university required four examiners at the minimum. Each examiner first gave a series of essay questions that were designed to take 8 to 12 hours to complete for each examiner. These were "closed book". I was placed in a room with a school laptop that had not internet capability and no other materials in the room. After I completed this week of 12 hours per day writing, I was then questioned by them in an oral defense that lasted 3 hours. I was always required to take 48 hours of coursework. My research component took longer than expected because I worked until my manuscripts produced work that were actually important to the field. I also designed my work myself from the ground up. Folks that walk into a lab doing groundbreaking work and simply do the leg work and write some up have it easy. By the time I was done, due to my own stubbornness in wanting my work to be very original and important, no one on my committee was qualified to properly examine me because my abilities exceeded their own. They deliberated for about 15 seconds prior to awarding me my doctorate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.19.159.87 ( talk) 01:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This statement seems to make no sense, especially since the "thus" does not refer to anything: "The doctorate of philosophy as it exists today thus originated as a doctorate in the liberal arts at the Friedrich-Wilhelms Universität, the buildings of which are today used by the Humboldt University of Berlin, becoming common in large parts of the world in the 20th century." Did someone just drop that in there? HullIntegrity ( talk) 19:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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What is that one woman holding? A muffin? Hard to see the gown behind that reflecting glass. Improvements could be made here. Dig deeper talk 16:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
The article starts by stating a PhD is "the highest academic degree awarded by universities in most English-speaking countries". This is not true for England at any rate, as the degrees of D.Litt., D.D., D.Mus. and D.Sc. are considered higher degrees than a Ph.D. or D.Phil.
See the section about higher doctorates on another page.
In fact, a Ph.D. is the lowest doctoral degree awarded by universities.
If it is true that it is the highest academic degree awarded in most English-speaking countries then it needs some kind of evidence to back it up. The national variations section of the page only gives information about three English-speaking countries (if you include India).
Perhaps it should say "many" instead of most, and then go on to say that in some English-speaking countries higher doctorates are awarded and give a link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.169.133 ( talk) 10:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
I've heard of PhD (i.e. got one), but I've never come across "DPhil"; is there any difference in usage when people use PhD and DPhil? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.143.212.3 ( talk) 13:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
There has recently been some editing about what the correct abbreviation to use is. The Manual of Style says, quite specifically, "The Manual of Style on abbreviations, above, eschews the use of periods with acronyms (M.D., Ph.D.)." The abbreviation "Ph.D." is explicitly said to be contrary to Wikipedia style, while the table that follows gives PhD as the correct abbreviation. We should follow that on this page.
As noted in the Doctor of Philosophy#Terminology section in this article, both Oxford and Merriam-Webster give PhD, with only Oxford US English giving Ph.D. However, this is not a clear-cut US/World English division, as shown by Merriam-Webster. They're is also a division between the Chicago Manual of Style, which uses PhD, and Associated Press, which prefers Ph.D. [4]
It is thus clear that 1) PhD is the standard usage in British English and 2) both PhD and Ph.D. are acceptable in US English. In addition to the above guidelines from the Manual of Style on abbreviations, the guidelines in MOS:COMMONALITY would imply that the universally-acceptable variant should be used rather than the US-specific variant.
My suggestion, therefore, is that while references to Ph.D. as an alternative abbreviation should be retained, the standard abbreviation used in the text of this article should, in keeping with the Manual of Style and usage accepted in all variants of English, be PhD throughout. Robminchin ( talk) 15:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuznetsov N.V. ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
On June 19, 2013, for the first time in the Russian Federation, defenses were held for the Ph.D. degree, granted by St. Petersburg University, instead of Candidate of Sciences degrees, awarded by the State Supreme Certification Commission. Renat Yuldashev, the graduate student of the Department of Applied Cybernetics of the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics of St. Petersburg State University, was the first to defend his thesis according to new rules for the Ph.D. degree. In preparing the defense procedure, it was used the experience of a joint Russian-Finnish scientific and educational program organized in 2007 at the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics of St. Petersburg State University and the Faculty of Information Technology of the University of Jyväskylä, and the co-chairs of the program -- N.V. Kuznetsov,
G.A. Leonov,
P. Neittaanmäki, acted as supervisors of the dissertation.
References:
nk ( talk) 10:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
For those in Germany who wish to become university professors, after the Ph.D. another major undertaking is necessary, the Habilitationsschrift. It requires a major publication and often an oral examination by a university faculty.
Recently, I understand, there has been a determination that Ph.D.'s from American universities are not permitted to use the honorific title "Dr." legally. Prof. Soandso, Ph.D. is okay. This strikes me a weird! In Germany only those with doctorates from a German or EU university are permitted this honorific. All sorts of people in Germany have doctorates, but in the university those entitled to use the honorific "Prof. Dr." before their names are the real thing. Jim Lacey ( talk) 00:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.35.169 ( talk) 00:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I think something should be said about Aspirantur in Germany. -- evrik ( talk) 19:17, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The lede sentence of this article states that the PhD is the "highest" academic degree. That's wrong. In the U.S., there are other degrees that are considered to be equivalent to the PhD in terms of qualifications for various positions and awards e.g., EdD, DBA, MD. In the United Kingdom and Russia, there are the higher doctorates. In Germany and Austria, there is the habilitation degree. This is all discussed in the terminal degree article that User:Robminchin dismissed as "US-specific;" the phrase may be most prevalent in the U.S. but the concept certainly isn't. In any case, that article also makes it abundantly clear that labeling this degree as the "highest" (whatever that means) is wrong and we need to find wording that is accurate. ElKevbo ( talk) 02:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
(@ Robminchin: Please participate in this discussion. ElKevbo ( talk) 02:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC))
In Japan, there are two distinct degrees: academic doctor and professional doctorate. The only "doctor" in professional degree in Japan is Juris Doctor.
So, a recipient of doctorate in disciplines such as engineering and pharmacy is not the person "where professional degrees are usually awarded in the western countries." We only give, say, a degree of doctor of engineering (博士(工学)) to a recipient who has trained academic skills and defended his/her dissertation in engineering fields.
Isn't the current article based on prejudice against doctors degree in non-western countries?
Doctors degree in Japan (博士): https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%9A%E5%A3%AB
Professional doctorate in Japan (専門職学位): https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%82%E9%96%80%E8%81%B7%E5%AD%A6%E4%BD%8D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akonno ( talk • contribs) 02:06, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Over the next few weeks, who would like to work on the requirements section with me? I'd like to try and make each paragraph more exact, with citations, in order to better assist people thinking to take one on, either formally or informally. I plan to take as exact a criteria as possible over to Wikiversity, to assist independent researchers there. Regards, Leighblackall ( talk) 00:28, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
+1 I'm in. It's not particularly clear right now... -- Davecormier ( talk) 02:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know of a list of people who have earned or been admitted to a PhD program without having previous upper level education experience? I noticed that Jane Goodall managed this, and was wondering if there were others.
96.50.178.195 ( talk) 21:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
often those with an honorary degree, often famous musicians or human rights activists -- Hypo Mix ( talk) 03:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
The majority of assertions in the United States section do not have their sources cited making me think its just conjecture from a single person. Ironically you'd think a person editing an article on PhDs would know better...I added fact tags, hopefully someone can back these claims up. Random2001 ( talk) 14:42, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
The statement for "There are 282 universities in the United States that award the PhD degree" seems suspect. Specifically, the associated reference makes it clear that "282 is the sum of all three categories of doctoral universities". Looking at the Carnegie data sheets ( https://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/downloads/CCIHE2021-PublicData.xlsx) the "three categories of doctoral universities" seems to be from the Carnegie "Basic classifications", which have three categories. That, however, looks at the overwhelming emphasis of an institution, not the highest level degree they award. Thus, for example we find Bryn Mawr listed as a category 21, "Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus". Bryn Mawr, however, awards PhDs in Math, Physics, Chemistry, Social Work, among other fields (e.g., https://www.brynmawr.edu/gsas/programs/graduate-program-mathematics/degree-requirements). Instead, the " Graduate Instructional Program Classification" should be used. Per that, Bryn Mawr is category 16: "Research Doctoral: Humanities/social sciences-dominant". Note that there are 7 such categories. My quick spreadsheet work shows that there are 709 schools that are doctoral using that metric (any of the 7 categories). Note that not all of these are PhD, for example, some might be DSW or EdD only--thus I'm going to change it to "more than 282". JustAnotherNewYorker ( talk) 23:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
An unregistered editor has begun an edit war to remove the EdD from this article, claiming that "it is in no way equivalent to a Ph.D., D.M.A., or S.J.D." First, it's important to note that the specific sentence that they are edit-warring over simply says that "Universities sometimes award other types of doctorate besides the PhD, such as..." It's ridiculous to claim that the EdD is not a doctorate and is not awarded by universities. Moreover, if this person is claiming that these degrees are radically different then unfortunately our article about the EdD has several paragraphs and high quality sources that favorably compare the EdD and PhD and note that many organizations, including the National Science Foundation and other U.S. federal agencies, view the two degrees as equivalent in many ways.
I would also like to know why only the EdD is being removed from the article while other degrees mentioned in the lede are not. What's so special about the DMA and SJD that they're permitted to remain as examples of other doctorates?
In any case, it's inappropriate to edit war to remove this information and it should remain in the article while this is being discussed. ElKevbo ( talk) 00:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
It didn't "apply" to me or my edits until your involvement. That pretty much tells me that you instigated something with me and now want to blame me for something I did not start. But it's beside the point now because we are on the talk page.
I don't consider the J.D. an edge case (it is called the "Doctor" of Jurisprudence, after all, even though it's only a glorified bachelor's or master's degree). And the M.D. and D.N.P. may be "unequivocally" APPLIED doctorates, but that isn't what this is about. The point is, all of these, along with the Ed.D., are professional doctorates. Yes, they are technically doctorates, but they don't belong in an introduction on the Ph.D., which, in the original phrase above, is clearly meant to indicate equivalents to the Ph.D. that universities may award. I don't see why you are so opposed to the difference between them. You seem to be looking for an argument where none was intended. 66.44.62.69 ( talk) 04:17, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
I've said what I had to say and stand by everything I wrote, regardless of the bold stupidity and disregard evidenced in these responses. The Ed.D. is an applied, professional doctorate, in no way equivalent to the Ph.D. or its analogs, and, contextually, does not belong in this article lede for all the reasons given. Nothing said here changes that obvious fact, and having two supposed editors be wrong about something so obvious does not in any way make such incorrect opinions correct or valid.
And no, edits do not make an edit war. Incompetent, silly full-time "registered" editors who attack those who clearly know better, however, certainly do.
66.44.62.69 ( talk) 05:56, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, once again, for proving the complete validity and accuracy of my previous comments, and your apparent inability to read. 66.44.62.69 ( talk) 18:18, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
I could always bring it back if that's your preference. You know what you are and I've said plainly what you are, so you shouldn't equate deletion of something with a retraction, if that's what you're doing. There's no ambiguity here.
You and whoever else that is "waiting" for my participation in your stupid stunt will be waiting a lifetime. So, I'll repeat what's obvious: thank you, once again, for proving the complete validity and accuracy of my previous comments, and your apparent inability to read. 66.44.62.69 ( talk) 00:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)