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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
It seems to have been a real thing. It was discussed extensively on Roobarb's DVD forum, I think originally from a source in Nothing at the End of the Lane. The lack of a source is problematic, but there's no reason to doubt the existence of the radio play. More to the point, I think, is that I'm not sure this is really the place for that discussion. Though it seems to be missing, it wasn't an episode of the Doctor Who television series. There are lots of other things in the world that are now lost (many of them related to Doctor Who, even), which don't belong on this page either. I can sort of see an argument for its inclusion, but only hesitantly and reluctantly. If you want to talk about the radio play, the best place is on one of the pages about the Cushing Doctor Who films. Aderack ( talk) 01:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
This article is all over the place. I've been trying to improve it in bits and pieces, but there are some major structural problems to the piece.
One of the biggest is the discussion of the end of the junking process, and the start of the retention. Bizarrely, the Film & Videotape Library barely gets a passing mention, and Sue Malden is only referenced in the footnotes. Meanwhile, Ian Levine is uncritically handed credit for the BBC's shift in policy -- which I am sure he is convinced is the case, but little surrounding evidence would support.
Every reputable source that I've seen suggests that for some while the BBC had been leaning toward merging its separate film and videotape libraries, but just hadn't built up much momentum until around 1977, when the BBC Film & Videotape Library was formed and Sue Malden was installed as its first head. At first she spent most of her energy just trying to halt the destruction, personally going around to talk to various department heads and countermanding orders where needed. Then after a while she decided she needed to assess just how much was missing, so she picked what she thought was a representative show -- Doctor Who -- and went from there.
Somewhere in the midst of this, yes, Levine seems to have turned up and thrown his weight around, first bothering Malden and then going to Villiers House where his dramatic story of the conveyor belt of doom is said to have occurred. And that story may well have played out exactly the way he describes it... at least, one of the many versions he has told over the years. But by the time he arrived the destruction had already been ordered stopped (though not everyone was yet on the same page), and the archives were already being audited for surviving material. So... why is none of this stated here?
A quick Google gives me this link. There are many more to be had. I don't have it to hand, but I am sure Wiped has much to say on the matter.
I think a clearer and more factual account would describe the period of destruction, with all of its logistics; then would move on to the shift in attitude and foundation of the new archive; then would talk about Malden's initial audits and calls for return of material (with some kind of aside about Levine's barn-storming and gymnastic routine); then would move on to the slow trickle back, from various odd sources. 216.151.52.59 ( talk) 18:27, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:01, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
The language used in this article is often inflammatory or emotionally charged. It's understandable enough -- emotions run high at actions that have caused a bunch of problems in following years. Still, in the interest of accuracy it's best to stay as neutral as possible. For example: though technically true, instead of talking about episodes being destroyed, try talking about their deletion, or their clearing.
It's not like the BBC was populated by villains cackling over a bonfire as they burned all of your favorite TV shows. The episodes were lost for clerical reasons. In much the same way that Wikipedia or the Library of Congress does not preserve everything, or that you might delete a bunch of photos off of your phone to make room for that new app you want, the BBC was compelled by practical necessity to make the best use it could out of limited resources. It held onto a few things that it deemed particularly important (even though in many cases they could never rebroadcast them), and then recycled the rest so that it could keep making new programmes. Production, not posterity, was the corporation's mandate -- because the system wasn't set up for posterity.
So. It's unfortunate that the system was set up to be so ephemeral, but that's the way things are. The Web works that way right now -- because it's a fairly new medium, that people don't really think about preserving. The Internet of 1997 no longer exists in a meaningful form. It's all onward and upward. Why look back, when we can keep making new websites? Are there any villains here? Not really. There's just a system that in a few decades we might with good reason consider short-sighted. Right now we're thinking about other stuff. 216.151.52.59 ( talk) 14:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
The Bruce Campbell or a Bruce Campbell? - Richfife ( talk) 20:02, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
This article has been protected for 24 hours because of the back & forth edit warring over Dubai vs United Arab Emirates. Please can editors discuss the issue here, rather than in edit summaries. Timrollpickering ( talk) 22:59, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Much reference is made to Sue Malden's 1978 audit of what was held in the Film Library, but we don't currently tabulate it here. The current table in the "Recovery" section merely shows what was recovered after the audit. Perhaps it might be better to have a single table showing what existed (or not) for each story, both at the audit and subsequent reoveries?
Nick Cooper ( talk) 11:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
According to this page there are no clips of mission to the unkown but if you watch the recon of the episode you can see that there are clips of it. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bqsns_mission-to-the-unknown-mission-to-the-unknown-reconstruction_shortfilms
19:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)Scenarioschrijver20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scenarioschrijver20 ( talk • contribs)
00:31 - 00:40 (Duration 9 seconds) 01:33 - 01:51 (Duration 18 seconds) 03:25 - 03:27 (Duration 2 seconds) 05:56 - 06:09 (Duration 13 seconds) 07:52 - 08:06 (Duration 14 seconds) 10:29 - 10:48 (Duration 19 seconds) 13:12 - 13:16 (Duration 4 seconds) 14:33 - 14:51 (Duration 18 seconds) 15:26 - 15:32 (Duration 6 seconds) 15:50 - 15:58 (Duration 8 seconds) 17:07 - 17:11 (Duration 4 seconds) 21:54 - 22:20 (Duration 26 seconds) 22:42 - 22:45 (Duration 3 seconds) 22:50 - 23:14 (Duration 24 seconds)
Scenarioschrijver20 ( talk) 21:25, 23 September 2016 (UTC)Scenarioschrijver20
My thanks for your work S. Dreskin's point about this being a primary source is a good one. It might be interesting to contact the person who made this to see if they would comment on how they made their recreation but I don't think that would effect the situation here on WikiP. MarnetteD| Talk 22:23, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
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The statement 'Other long-running programmes have few or no surviving episodes; for example, the soap operas Compact (6 out of 43 episodes surviving), The Newcomers (2 out of 375), and United! (0 out of 147)' looks wrong to me. Compact was a on twice weekly for over three years and its article suggests it had 373 episodes in total while the Newcomers article suggests it had 430. Dunarc ( talk) 14:43, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
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This page is about aired Doctor Who episodes whose copies were later lost or destroyed. As such, I believe Shada does not belong on this page, it was not completed and did not go missing. Cheers, Dresken ( talk) 21:48, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The article claims that the censor clips from Australia "precisely match" the edited prints found in Nigeria in the eighties. This is not true - there are still segments missing from The War Machines: 3 and 4 as the prints had been edited by other countries before reaching Nigeria. Paul Benjamin Austin ( talk) 05:51, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Not true - there is no authentic colour data for The Mind OF Evil episode 1 (it being the only one of the eight Pertwee episodes of which only telerecordings survive to have had the chroma dots filtered out), while Invasion (of the Dinosaurs) pt1 only exists in partial colour as the surviving print only has two of the three sets of chroma dots. This statement needs to be corrected. 62.190.148.115 ( talk) 15:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
False. I've seen Episode 6 of Wheel, and the clip was longer than three frames. Vincinel ( talk) 22:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
To clarify -- the extermination of Kennedy seen at the start of Evil of the Daleks 2 is NOT lifted from the end of part 1, as Kennedy's death only ever occurred in part 2. The footage of Kennedy's death seen at the end of The Wheel in Space part 6 is slightly different, being 3 frames longer. This is because the Wheel 6 footage wasn't dubbed off Evil 2 but was reassembled anew from the original tapes because they needed this 'flashback' sequence to be on 35mm film for playing onto the TARDIS monitor. Jpreddle ( talk) 21:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
I’m not convinced by this claim that ‘only Steptoe and Son has a better survival record.’ True, Steptoe and Son is, as the reference notes, practically the only 1960s BBC series to be complete but there are many others that have better records than Dr Who. Dad’s Army (3 of 80 missing) springs to mind. I think this claim should be removed, or at least drastically modified to something along the lines of ‘only Steptoe and Son has a complete archive from the period, while Dr Who is fortunate to have as many episodes surviving as it does.’ 2A02:C7F:202A:5D00:2D20:4229:AD36:D8B6 ( talk) 19:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
This article was promoted to featured article in 2005, and was last reviewed in 2007. Since then, it has grown in size by more than 100kB and large swathes of it are unsourced. Consequently, it no longer meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. All paragraphs should be verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and supported by inline citations. DrKay ( talk) 12:31, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I was reviewing this as well for WP:URFA/2020, and agree with those points from about a year and a half ago, that don't seem to be addressed. Lots of uncited text, questionable sources such as "Dr. Who News" and Wikispaces, and this really seems to have grown a good bit of cruft. WP:FAR is likely to be in this article's future if the issues are not addressed. Hog Farm Talk 20:53, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Doctor Who missing episodes → Missing Doctor Who episodes – The current article title contains poor grammar. — ÐW( T· C) 13:41, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
It seems to have been a real thing. It was discussed extensively on Roobarb's DVD forum, I think originally from a source in Nothing at the End of the Lane. The lack of a source is problematic, but there's no reason to doubt the existence of the radio play. More to the point, I think, is that I'm not sure this is really the place for that discussion. Though it seems to be missing, it wasn't an episode of the Doctor Who television series. There are lots of other things in the world that are now lost (many of them related to Doctor Who, even), which don't belong on this page either. I can sort of see an argument for its inclusion, but only hesitantly and reluctantly. If you want to talk about the radio play, the best place is on one of the pages about the Cushing Doctor Who films. Aderack ( talk) 01:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
This article is all over the place. I've been trying to improve it in bits and pieces, but there are some major structural problems to the piece.
One of the biggest is the discussion of the end of the junking process, and the start of the retention. Bizarrely, the Film & Videotape Library barely gets a passing mention, and Sue Malden is only referenced in the footnotes. Meanwhile, Ian Levine is uncritically handed credit for the BBC's shift in policy -- which I am sure he is convinced is the case, but little surrounding evidence would support.
Every reputable source that I've seen suggests that for some while the BBC had been leaning toward merging its separate film and videotape libraries, but just hadn't built up much momentum until around 1977, when the BBC Film & Videotape Library was formed and Sue Malden was installed as its first head. At first she spent most of her energy just trying to halt the destruction, personally going around to talk to various department heads and countermanding orders where needed. Then after a while she decided she needed to assess just how much was missing, so she picked what she thought was a representative show -- Doctor Who -- and went from there.
Somewhere in the midst of this, yes, Levine seems to have turned up and thrown his weight around, first bothering Malden and then going to Villiers House where his dramatic story of the conveyor belt of doom is said to have occurred. And that story may well have played out exactly the way he describes it... at least, one of the many versions he has told over the years. But by the time he arrived the destruction had already been ordered stopped (though not everyone was yet on the same page), and the archives were already being audited for surviving material. So... why is none of this stated here?
A quick Google gives me this link. There are many more to be had. I don't have it to hand, but I am sure Wiped has much to say on the matter.
I think a clearer and more factual account would describe the period of destruction, with all of its logistics; then would move on to the shift in attitude and foundation of the new archive; then would talk about Malden's initial audits and calls for return of material (with some kind of aside about Levine's barn-storming and gymnastic routine); then would move on to the slow trickle back, from various odd sources. 216.151.52.59 ( talk) 18:27, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:01, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
The language used in this article is often inflammatory or emotionally charged. It's understandable enough -- emotions run high at actions that have caused a bunch of problems in following years. Still, in the interest of accuracy it's best to stay as neutral as possible. For example: though technically true, instead of talking about episodes being destroyed, try talking about their deletion, or their clearing.
It's not like the BBC was populated by villains cackling over a bonfire as they burned all of your favorite TV shows. The episodes were lost for clerical reasons. In much the same way that Wikipedia or the Library of Congress does not preserve everything, or that you might delete a bunch of photos off of your phone to make room for that new app you want, the BBC was compelled by practical necessity to make the best use it could out of limited resources. It held onto a few things that it deemed particularly important (even though in many cases they could never rebroadcast them), and then recycled the rest so that it could keep making new programmes. Production, not posterity, was the corporation's mandate -- because the system wasn't set up for posterity.
So. It's unfortunate that the system was set up to be so ephemeral, but that's the way things are. The Web works that way right now -- because it's a fairly new medium, that people don't really think about preserving. The Internet of 1997 no longer exists in a meaningful form. It's all onward and upward. Why look back, when we can keep making new websites? Are there any villains here? Not really. There's just a system that in a few decades we might with good reason consider short-sighted. Right now we're thinking about other stuff. 216.151.52.59 ( talk) 14:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
The Bruce Campbell or a Bruce Campbell? - Richfife ( talk) 20:02, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
This article has been protected for 24 hours because of the back & forth edit warring over Dubai vs United Arab Emirates. Please can editors discuss the issue here, rather than in edit summaries. Timrollpickering ( talk) 22:59, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Much reference is made to Sue Malden's 1978 audit of what was held in the Film Library, but we don't currently tabulate it here. The current table in the "Recovery" section merely shows what was recovered after the audit. Perhaps it might be better to have a single table showing what existed (or not) for each story, both at the audit and subsequent reoveries?
Nick Cooper ( talk) 11:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
According to this page there are no clips of mission to the unkown but if you watch the recon of the episode you can see that there are clips of it. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bqsns_mission-to-the-unknown-mission-to-the-unknown-reconstruction_shortfilms
19:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)Scenarioschrijver20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scenarioschrijver20 ( talk • contribs)
00:31 - 00:40 (Duration 9 seconds) 01:33 - 01:51 (Duration 18 seconds) 03:25 - 03:27 (Duration 2 seconds) 05:56 - 06:09 (Duration 13 seconds) 07:52 - 08:06 (Duration 14 seconds) 10:29 - 10:48 (Duration 19 seconds) 13:12 - 13:16 (Duration 4 seconds) 14:33 - 14:51 (Duration 18 seconds) 15:26 - 15:32 (Duration 6 seconds) 15:50 - 15:58 (Duration 8 seconds) 17:07 - 17:11 (Duration 4 seconds) 21:54 - 22:20 (Duration 26 seconds) 22:42 - 22:45 (Duration 3 seconds) 22:50 - 23:14 (Duration 24 seconds)
Scenarioschrijver20 ( talk) 21:25, 23 September 2016 (UTC)Scenarioschrijver20
My thanks for your work S. Dreskin's point about this being a primary source is a good one. It might be interesting to contact the person who made this to see if they would comment on how they made their recreation but I don't think that would effect the situation here on WikiP. MarnetteD| Talk 22:23, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
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The statement 'Other long-running programmes have few or no surviving episodes; for example, the soap operas Compact (6 out of 43 episodes surviving), The Newcomers (2 out of 375), and United! (0 out of 147)' looks wrong to me. Compact was a on twice weekly for over three years and its article suggests it had 373 episodes in total while the Newcomers article suggests it had 430. Dunarc ( talk) 14:43, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
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This page is about aired Doctor Who episodes whose copies were later lost or destroyed. As such, I believe Shada does not belong on this page, it was not completed and did not go missing. Cheers, Dresken ( talk) 21:48, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The article claims that the censor clips from Australia "precisely match" the edited prints found in Nigeria in the eighties. This is not true - there are still segments missing from The War Machines: 3 and 4 as the prints had been edited by other countries before reaching Nigeria. Paul Benjamin Austin ( talk) 05:51, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Not true - there is no authentic colour data for The Mind OF Evil episode 1 (it being the only one of the eight Pertwee episodes of which only telerecordings survive to have had the chroma dots filtered out), while Invasion (of the Dinosaurs) pt1 only exists in partial colour as the surviving print only has two of the three sets of chroma dots. This statement needs to be corrected. 62.190.148.115 ( talk) 15:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
False. I've seen Episode 6 of Wheel, and the clip was longer than three frames. Vincinel ( talk) 22:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
To clarify -- the extermination of Kennedy seen at the start of Evil of the Daleks 2 is NOT lifted from the end of part 1, as Kennedy's death only ever occurred in part 2. The footage of Kennedy's death seen at the end of The Wheel in Space part 6 is slightly different, being 3 frames longer. This is because the Wheel 6 footage wasn't dubbed off Evil 2 but was reassembled anew from the original tapes because they needed this 'flashback' sequence to be on 35mm film for playing onto the TARDIS monitor. Jpreddle ( talk) 21:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
I’m not convinced by this claim that ‘only Steptoe and Son has a better survival record.’ True, Steptoe and Son is, as the reference notes, practically the only 1960s BBC series to be complete but there are many others that have better records than Dr Who. Dad’s Army (3 of 80 missing) springs to mind. I think this claim should be removed, or at least drastically modified to something along the lines of ‘only Steptoe and Son has a complete archive from the period, while Dr Who is fortunate to have as many episodes surviving as it does.’ 2A02:C7F:202A:5D00:2D20:4229:AD36:D8B6 ( talk) 19:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
This article was promoted to featured article in 2005, and was last reviewed in 2007. Since then, it has grown in size by more than 100kB and large swathes of it are unsourced. Consequently, it no longer meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. All paragraphs should be verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and supported by inline citations. DrKay ( talk) 12:31, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I was reviewing this as well for WP:URFA/2020, and agree with those points from about a year and a half ago, that don't seem to be addressed. Lots of uncited text, questionable sources such as "Dr. Who News" and Wikispaces, and this really seems to have grown a good bit of cruft. WP:FAR is likely to be in this article's future if the issues are not addressed. Hog Farm Talk 20:53, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Doctor Who missing episodes → Missing Doctor Who episodes – The current article title contains poor grammar. — ÐW( T· C) 13:41, 5 April 2021 (UTC)