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This article seemed to incorrectly describes the "Dobsonian" as just a mount. The "Dobsonian" is actually an innovative telescope and mount design. I don’t know if this is because it was originaly a redirect from an article about mount types but I have edited it to be more descriptive of the entire class “Dobsonian”.( Halfblue 05:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC))
Hello. I was browsing the various telescope mount articles recently (see Telescope mount, Altazimuth_mount, Equatorial mount, Dobsonian), and I'd like to propose merging them into a single Telescope mount article. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? If so, could you please visit Talk:Telescope_mount#What.27s_the_role_of_this_article and perhaps comment? Izogi 04:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as a Dobsonian Mount? The Dobsonian seems to be a class of telescope that uses a combination of previously know innovations for a specific design purpose (a large, cheap, portable, deep sky instrument). It may be a misnomer to call any one of those design features "Dobsonian". i.e. The Dobsonians do not have "Dobsonian Mounts"; they have Altazimuth_mounts. And those Altazimuth_mounts may use John Dobson's design features but that would make them "Dobsonian style" Altazimuth_mounts. I have made a few minor text changes to this end but would appreciate other people’s opinions. Halfblue 05:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned up the edit up to 01:32, 27 September 2006. Sections of it seemed to just describe commercial types instead of Dobsonian evolutions and also read as a "how to" Buyers guide WP:NOT. "Truss Tube” was not "invented" in 1989 so need to more specificaly describe it as an evolution. Uncited claims such as "rigorous documentation to ensure their optical quality to the purchaser", "better distribute the mirror box’s weight", and whole sections on current commercial models seem to be derived from ads and are therefor POV. RV'ed whole sections on "two generations" of Dobs since that doesn’t seem to be substantiated by sourced material. The rest of the changes are very good IMHO and I have simple re-arranged some of them to be more encyclopedic. (PS there are GFDL images of “Truss Tube” Dobsonians on Wikipedia Commons in case the immage supplied gets afD'ed. Will leave current image for now so its editor can supply a Copyright rational.) Halfblue 19:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Halfblue. Thank you for comments – it’s great to see that there are others interested in this article. I do disagree with you in many, many areas and I feel a few of your comments are quite subjective and POV (e.g. what constitutes “factual” and encyclopedic) but I’m hoping we can work together to refine this article. The original article was a good start, but as an amateur with 30 years of experience, I feel that it had a very narrow breadth (focusing primarily on ATM’s) and does not encompass the full history or important aspects of this design. Here are the major area’s I disagree with you on:
I’ve restored much of the content modified in respect to your earlier comments. Please, let’s work together in developing sources and refinements. Let’s not simply delete content wholesale because one of us happens to disagree with it. Again, bear in mind that I’m writing this as a amateur astronomer with 30 years experience who has himself taught classes on the subject. I have no vested commercial interested in any particular telescope or manufacturer. Joeconsumer 09/27/06.
Hi True Blue: Thanks, I agree that there’s a lot that can be done to improve the overall article. Here are my thoughts going forward.
My thoughts for now... Please don’t let me discourage you from making tweaks /edits to the article. I’ll probably have a bit more time to work on this over the coming weekend. JoeConsumer 06:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC
All those mods you mention would be a good idea. I have made some more basic mods that may address some of what you mention. They will help categorize any additions to come. I find that you can always find help on Wikipedia its self. On of the first pieces of advice in article writing is What are you (we) trying to say? What we are trying to say is “There is a design, it has these applications, it has had these derivations”. In polishing up a quite a few articles on telescopes I have come across other peoples examples of organizing this type of information. The one I think will help here is Schmidt camera. I am making changes based on that. One line of thinking I am working along is that the "Dobsonian" is getting to be a historical artifact... the creation of one mind or group. So it should probably be discribed as a single or "classic" invention that then has derivations.
So:
Material has been pretty muched re-arranged into their logical sections These edits continue to follow this philosophy:
Halfblue 16:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I have rm'ed the following to talk since it is unreferenced and therefor WP:NPOV. Could be re-added if there is reference to someone actually saying this. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 23:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I put it back. The second sentence is quite correct; do you know of any exceptions? And as a long-term amateur astronomer, I can attest to the accuracy of the first sentence. IrishFilmBuff ( talk) 09:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I certainly agree with whomever added the "peacock" label. This article is terribly biased. Dobsonian telescopes sacrifice everything for the sake of large aperture. They are a huge step backwards in almost every respect but size. A person who learns about Dobsonians from this article would get a totally wrong impression. JBHarshaw ( talk) 11:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I made some changes in the opening paragraph to lessen the "peacock" nature of this article. UMinnAstro ( talk) 12:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the edit summary comment: "BY DEFINITION, Dobsonians have lower-quality mirrors than ordinary reflectors [3]: I have an 8" pyrex blank sitting under the piano that I hope to start grinding before too long. By your definition I am prohibited from placing it in a dobsonian structure if I manage to polish too fine a figure??? That is preposterous on its face. -- Kbh3rd talk 23:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I have re-edited the page based on the only objectified description of a Dobsonian telescope's optical performance characteristics---> they are newtonian telescopes. Since the optics in a dobsonian run the same gamit from good to bad as found in any other amateur or commercial telescope they really have no other definition optically. Their mounts have a similar definition---> they are Altazimuth mounts. rm'ed some redundancy as well as text that does not fit the definitions above. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 00:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I have again reverted the edits by the above IP. Editing the "original" Dob section to the present tense makes this section less clear. The whole purpose of that section is that it is talking about a small number of specific telescopes made in the past. It also confuses the distinctive characteristics of the "original" scopes with all Dobs. I am pretty sure that 99% of Dobs made today do not use porthole mirrors. Similarly a truss Dob is still a Dob even though is is not made of Sonotube. Rewriting this section in the present tense confuses those Dobs with present Dobs and disrupts the logical flow of the article CrispMuncher ( talk) 16:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC).
User 74.42.36.182 raises a very interesting issue that we have often discussed at the Vancouver Sidewalk Astronomers (VSAs): What is a Dobsonian? Our group has several Dobs. We also have one vintage (ca. 1940) 16 inch Newtonian reflector on an alt-azimuth mount. The younger VSA members insist on calling that telescope a "Dobsonian", but I never tire of explaining to the young-uns that it was built decades before John Dobson arrived on the amateur astronomy scene. When I read old astronomy books and magazines, I see pictures of telescopes that would nowadays be called "Dobsonians" -- but they all pre-date John Dobson. So what, exactly, makes a telescope a "Dobsonian"?
Here are some things that are NOT specific to Dobsonians:
Even the specific combination of elements is not unique to John Dobson. If you don't believe me, take a look at Sam Brown's pamphlets on telescope making from the 1950's (published by Edmund Scientific) -- you will find designs for telescopes that contain all of John Dobson's supposed innovations. But, they are not called "Dobsonians", because Dobsonians had not been invented yet.
Still, most amateur astronomers seem to have something definite in mind when they talk about "Dobsonians". What, exactly, is that, and how does it differ from what came before? That is a key question which this article needs to address, and this is why I undid Fountains_of_Bryn_Mawr's deletions. I have also added a link to an article that cites Dobson's own definition of a "Dobsonian". 67.208.5.162 ( talk) 16:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
This talk page (and these SPI and ANI reports [6] [7]) show a high number of edits from differing anonymous IP addresses and identified sock-puppet accounts that all probably belong to one user. If you have been referred to this talk after restoring one of these edits you should provide reliable sources before restoring and maybe consider creating an account [8]. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 17:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't know what a "sock-puppet" is but I'm pretty sure I'm not one. I restored the deleted paragraph. It is supported by two good references. If you are going to delete it yet again, please give a bona-fide reason. 67.208.5.162 ( talk) 20:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Among the advantages outlined for the Dobsonian, the article says:
Since the telescope design has an alt-azimuth mount the mirror only has to be supported in a simple cell with a backing of indoor/outdoor carpet to evenly support the weight of the much thinner mirror.
I'm afraid I don't follow that. Might one not be just as apt to point a Dobsonian in any direction that you might point a typical Newtonian scope with equatorial mount? So the mirror would have the same strains. If it has to do with the box that holds the mirror, is there any reason not to put that box in a typical Newtonian scope with equatorial mount? Uporządnicki ( talk) 18:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I cant figure out how to use wikipedia to properly edit the article. The Orion 50 inch dobsonian was never produced, it was a market test. http://www.cloudynights.com/topic/323598-orion-monster-dobs-not-happening/ They made a 36 inch which had some apparent problems, the offered 42 and 50 inchers were never even made as a test.
The largest Dobsonian actually produced and sold commercially to my knowledge is a 36 inch by Obsession which is no longer available either, although other makers have said they would consider making 36 and 40 inch scopes.
Also the largest homebuilt dobsonian scope is currently a http://www.davidreneke.com/the-worlds-largest-amateur-telescope/ 70 inch still being completed. It is not in this list of other largest scopes which are probably all dobsonians. http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/Largest%20Amateur%20Telescopes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.128.95 ( talk) 20:04, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
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If no objection, I propose to remove the "largest commercially available... 50-inch aperture", since Orion never did produce that years ago. Also plan to update that section with some newer information. (No, I am not a Dob seller :-) Assambrew ( talk) 22:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Done. I made substantial revisions while keeping the basic outline. Much of the original section was unreferenced. Some of that text remains, with added refs. I listed refs for many commercial Dob makers (articles and reviews). Removed obsolete ref to Orion 50 inch model that never happened, and added a 50 inch scope that was actually delivered last year. Assambrew ( talk) 07:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
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This article seemed to incorrectly describes the "Dobsonian" as just a mount. The "Dobsonian" is actually an innovative telescope and mount design. I don’t know if this is because it was originaly a redirect from an article about mount types but I have edited it to be more descriptive of the entire class “Dobsonian”.( Halfblue 05:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC))
Hello. I was browsing the various telescope mount articles recently (see Telescope mount, Altazimuth_mount, Equatorial mount, Dobsonian), and I'd like to propose merging them into a single Telescope mount article. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? If so, could you please visit Talk:Telescope_mount#What.27s_the_role_of_this_article and perhaps comment? Izogi 04:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as a Dobsonian Mount? The Dobsonian seems to be a class of telescope that uses a combination of previously know innovations for a specific design purpose (a large, cheap, portable, deep sky instrument). It may be a misnomer to call any one of those design features "Dobsonian". i.e. The Dobsonians do not have "Dobsonian Mounts"; they have Altazimuth_mounts. And those Altazimuth_mounts may use John Dobson's design features but that would make them "Dobsonian style" Altazimuth_mounts. I have made a few minor text changes to this end but would appreciate other people’s opinions. Halfblue 05:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned up the edit up to 01:32, 27 September 2006. Sections of it seemed to just describe commercial types instead of Dobsonian evolutions and also read as a "how to" Buyers guide WP:NOT. "Truss Tube” was not "invented" in 1989 so need to more specificaly describe it as an evolution. Uncited claims such as "rigorous documentation to ensure their optical quality to the purchaser", "better distribute the mirror box’s weight", and whole sections on current commercial models seem to be derived from ads and are therefor POV. RV'ed whole sections on "two generations" of Dobs since that doesn’t seem to be substantiated by sourced material. The rest of the changes are very good IMHO and I have simple re-arranged some of them to be more encyclopedic. (PS there are GFDL images of “Truss Tube” Dobsonians on Wikipedia Commons in case the immage supplied gets afD'ed. Will leave current image for now so its editor can supply a Copyright rational.) Halfblue 19:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Halfblue. Thank you for comments – it’s great to see that there are others interested in this article. I do disagree with you in many, many areas and I feel a few of your comments are quite subjective and POV (e.g. what constitutes “factual” and encyclopedic) but I’m hoping we can work together to refine this article. The original article was a good start, but as an amateur with 30 years of experience, I feel that it had a very narrow breadth (focusing primarily on ATM’s) and does not encompass the full history or important aspects of this design. Here are the major area’s I disagree with you on:
I’ve restored much of the content modified in respect to your earlier comments. Please, let’s work together in developing sources and refinements. Let’s not simply delete content wholesale because one of us happens to disagree with it. Again, bear in mind that I’m writing this as a amateur astronomer with 30 years experience who has himself taught classes on the subject. I have no vested commercial interested in any particular telescope or manufacturer. Joeconsumer 09/27/06.
Hi True Blue: Thanks, I agree that there’s a lot that can be done to improve the overall article. Here are my thoughts going forward.
My thoughts for now... Please don’t let me discourage you from making tweaks /edits to the article. I’ll probably have a bit more time to work on this over the coming weekend. JoeConsumer 06:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC
All those mods you mention would be a good idea. I have made some more basic mods that may address some of what you mention. They will help categorize any additions to come. I find that you can always find help on Wikipedia its self. On of the first pieces of advice in article writing is What are you (we) trying to say? What we are trying to say is “There is a design, it has these applications, it has had these derivations”. In polishing up a quite a few articles on telescopes I have come across other peoples examples of organizing this type of information. The one I think will help here is Schmidt camera. I am making changes based on that. One line of thinking I am working along is that the "Dobsonian" is getting to be a historical artifact... the creation of one mind or group. So it should probably be discribed as a single or "classic" invention that then has derivations.
So:
Material has been pretty muched re-arranged into their logical sections These edits continue to follow this philosophy:
Halfblue 16:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I have rm'ed the following to talk since it is unreferenced and therefor WP:NPOV. Could be re-added if there is reference to someone actually saying this. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 23:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I put it back. The second sentence is quite correct; do you know of any exceptions? And as a long-term amateur astronomer, I can attest to the accuracy of the first sentence. IrishFilmBuff ( talk) 09:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I certainly agree with whomever added the "peacock" label. This article is terribly biased. Dobsonian telescopes sacrifice everything for the sake of large aperture. They are a huge step backwards in almost every respect but size. A person who learns about Dobsonians from this article would get a totally wrong impression. JBHarshaw ( talk) 11:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I made some changes in the opening paragraph to lessen the "peacock" nature of this article. UMinnAstro ( talk) 12:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the edit summary comment: "BY DEFINITION, Dobsonians have lower-quality mirrors than ordinary reflectors [3]: I have an 8" pyrex blank sitting under the piano that I hope to start grinding before too long. By your definition I am prohibited from placing it in a dobsonian structure if I manage to polish too fine a figure??? That is preposterous on its face. -- Kbh3rd talk 23:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I have re-edited the page based on the only objectified description of a Dobsonian telescope's optical performance characteristics---> they are newtonian telescopes. Since the optics in a dobsonian run the same gamit from good to bad as found in any other amateur or commercial telescope they really have no other definition optically. Their mounts have a similar definition---> they are Altazimuth mounts. rm'ed some redundancy as well as text that does not fit the definitions above. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 00:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I have again reverted the edits by the above IP. Editing the "original" Dob section to the present tense makes this section less clear. The whole purpose of that section is that it is talking about a small number of specific telescopes made in the past. It also confuses the distinctive characteristics of the "original" scopes with all Dobs. I am pretty sure that 99% of Dobs made today do not use porthole mirrors. Similarly a truss Dob is still a Dob even though is is not made of Sonotube. Rewriting this section in the present tense confuses those Dobs with present Dobs and disrupts the logical flow of the article CrispMuncher ( talk) 16:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC).
User 74.42.36.182 raises a very interesting issue that we have often discussed at the Vancouver Sidewalk Astronomers (VSAs): What is a Dobsonian? Our group has several Dobs. We also have one vintage (ca. 1940) 16 inch Newtonian reflector on an alt-azimuth mount. The younger VSA members insist on calling that telescope a "Dobsonian", but I never tire of explaining to the young-uns that it was built decades before John Dobson arrived on the amateur astronomy scene. When I read old astronomy books and magazines, I see pictures of telescopes that would nowadays be called "Dobsonians" -- but they all pre-date John Dobson. So what, exactly, makes a telescope a "Dobsonian"?
Here are some things that are NOT specific to Dobsonians:
Even the specific combination of elements is not unique to John Dobson. If you don't believe me, take a look at Sam Brown's pamphlets on telescope making from the 1950's (published by Edmund Scientific) -- you will find designs for telescopes that contain all of John Dobson's supposed innovations. But, they are not called "Dobsonians", because Dobsonians had not been invented yet.
Still, most amateur astronomers seem to have something definite in mind when they talk about "Dobsonians". What, exactly, is that, and how does it differ from what came before? That is a key question which this article needs to address, and this is why I undid Fountains_of_Bryn_Mawr's deletions. I have also added a link to an article that cites Dobson's own definition of a "Dobsonian". 67.208.5.162 ( talk) 16:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
This talk page (and these SPI and ANI reports [6] [7]) show a high number of edits from differing anonymous IP addresses and identified sock-puppet accounts that all probably belong to one user. If you have been referred to this talk after restoring one of these edits you should provide reliable sources before restoring and maybe consider creating an account [8]. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 17:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't know what a "sock-puppet" is but I'm pretty sure I'm not one. I restored the deleted paragraph. It is supported by two good references. If you are going to delete it yet again, please give a bona-fide reason. 67.208.5.162 ( talk) 20:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Among the advantages outlined for the Dobsonian, the article says:
Since the telescope design has an alt-azimuth mount the mirror only has to be supported in a simple cell with a backing of indoor/outdoor carpet to evenly support the weight of the much thinner mirror.
I'm afraid I don't follow that. Might one not be just as apt to point a Dobsonian in any direction that you might point a typical Newtonian scope with equatorial mount? So the mirror would have the same strains. If it has to do with the box that holds the mirror, is there any reason not to put that box in a typical Newtonian scope with equatorial mount? Uporządnicki ( talk) 18:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I cant figure out how to use wikipedia to properly edit the article. The Orion 50 inch dobsonian was never produced, it was a market test. http://www.cloudynights.com/topic/323598-orion-monster-dobs-not-happening/ They made a 36 inch which had some apparent problems, the offered 42 and 50 inchers were never even made as a test.
The largest Dobsonian actually produced and sold commercially to my knowledge is a 36 inch by Obsession which is no longer available either, although other makers have said they would consider making 36 and 40 inch scopes.
Also the largest homebuilt dobsonian scope is currently a http://www.davidreneke.com/the-worlds-largest-amateur-telescope/ 70 inch still being completed. It is not in this list of other largest scopes which are probably all dobsonians. http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/Largest%20Amateur%20Telescopes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.128.95 ( talk) 20:04, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
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If no objection, I propose to remove the "largest commercially available... 50-inch aperture", since Orion never did produce that years ago. Also plan to update that section with some newer information. (No, I am not a Dob seller :-) Assambrew ( talk) 22:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Done. I made substantial revisions while keeping the basic outline. Much of the original section was unreferenced. Some of that text remains, with added refs. I listed refs for many commercial Dob makers (articles and reviews). Removed obsolete ref to Orion 50 inch model that never happened, and added a 50 inch scope that was actually delivered last year. Assambrew ( talk) 07:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)