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Terry asks how I intend to 'interface' 'my' new chronology. For an article that is effectively a 'history, the operative Chronology should be clear to the reader, and is something which should be fully established by consensus amongst editors, so I have no fixed view on how the Chronology should (or even could) work with the existing structure until there is some established consensus on what the Chronology is. The point is that the current text is substantially achronious and does not assist the reader in understanding the history. My preference would be a structure that reflects a chronology of management/oversight/figure head changes, such as:
Thereafter the beliefs (and notable fluctuations) attached to the main phases (Hans Rawat ->Geographic Expansion), (Geographic Expansion ->Schism), (Indian consolidation), (Guru Maharaji consolidation), (Maharaji phase) can be discussed in discrete sections. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 16:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
From my casual observation, the history chronology of DLM is not `standard' as it is.
I see that the current text in our article is unsourced. On another page, Nik Wright2 has posted a link showing that the DLM ceased to be a charitable organization in 1995. [3] Should we change the date to 1995? Will Beback talk 06:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
In summary, it’s not simply a matter of changing the date but of restructuring the text to reflect (as far as the sources allow)the history of what actually happened. I suggest wholly separating (by paragraph and/or section) the ashram closure and minor changes like the US headquarters move, from the major issue of the name changes and actual closure of the UK DLM. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I re-added Marolyn's occupation, but after thinking about it a little more now, I have a couple of thoughts. I think I would support adding it into the PR article, and removing it from here. It has a little more to do with his life, than that of the DLM. Also, I don't know that the 2 articles necessarily need to have verbatim text copied and pasted between them, otherwise, it's really just one article with 2 separate pages. Thoughts? Usual flames? -- Maelefique (talk) 17:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
If we can successfully refocus the article to reflect the actual organisational history as it is relevant to all aspects of the use of the name Divine Light Mission, then it should be possible to make this a distinct article from Prem Rawat. The existing construct has in effect been to merely mirror the Rawat article by using exactly the same sources for both, just using here the bits of text that happen to include the name DLM as opposed to the name Guru Maharaj Ji. So I would envisage in this article, cutting the personal details about Rawat to the bare minimum. In the case of Marolyn Rawat, the judgement would be "does her occupation have a bearing on developments in the Divine Light Mission ?" I think the answer is no. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 20:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The logical separation of the treatment of ashrams from the treatment of name change, should concordant with the logical split between the treatment of Satpal's following and Prem Rawat's following - this can be achieved by introducing a new section "Two Movements"(largle a place holder for the present). Derks and Lans provide the reference base for this new Section. The necessary changes are as follows:
The family rift was followed by a schizm within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satyapal) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Rawat) retained the DLM following outside of India. [4] [5] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital, and this progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat. Divine Light Missions in Australia, France and elsewhere were renamed, in 1995 the UK Divine Light Mission was dissolved. [6] [7] [8] -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 09:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(insert) I've begun the process of editing the draft. As this is likely to require a number of disparate changes I've started a section at the bottom of the page for notes that may be more substantial than the edit summary allows for.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 08:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The often-heard term International Red Cross is actually a misnomer, as no official organization as such exists bearing that name. In reality, the movement consists of several distinct organizations that are legally independent from each other, but are united within the Movement through common basic principles, objectives, symbols, statutes and governing organs. The Movement's parts:
Terry Macro ( talk) 03:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Terry is of course right. There was no split in the DLM outside India. Who says so?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 09:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Come on, Nik, not everybody can be a bookworm. A little unreferenced common sense should be tolerable by WP, no need to get nasty. What in your discretion is tendentious in my edit?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 10:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
You have not answered my question, instead you're bullying. Maybe I haven't understood WP right. This is a talkpage, isn't it? And where do you perceive a complaint, let alone endless ones?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 12:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Not really.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 03:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Here is the existing text that most direcly addresses the split's legal aspect. These appear in different sections, which is an organizational problem addressed by the proposed change.
I can't find Lewiss 1998 The encyclopedia of cults, sects, and new religions at the movement, but here's what the same author wrote in another book the same year:
Downtown devotes some attention to the underlying causes of the split, but doesn't appear to mention the court case specifically. However he may mention it somewhere in th book that I can't find. His coverage is almost exclusively of the American movement.
I can't find Partidge, but Melton's own Encyclopedic Handbook of Cultsin America 1986 says:
There are more sources, including a number of contemporary newspaper and magazine articles that covered the legal dispute. However since there isn't any source that denies there was a split I don't see the need to keep copying in more material. Getting back to the question at hand - are there any objections to the proposal? Will Beback talk 01:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The family rift was followed by a schism within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satyapal) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Rawat) retained the DLM following outside of India. [9] [10] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital, and this progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat. Divine Light Missions in Australia, France and elsewhere were renamed; the UK Divine Light Mission was dissolved in 1995. [11] [12] [13]
the Mission de la lumière divine, created in 1973, was succeeded by the Centre élan vital in 1987.
• The family rift was followed by a schizm within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satya Pal, also known as Bal Bhagwan Ji, now Satpal Maharaj) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Pal) retained the DLM following outside of India. [14] [15] [16] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital and a Swiss Foundation of the same name was created. [17] [18] [19]. Elan Vital progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat and in 1995 one of the last remaining usages of the Divine Light Mission name came to an end when the UK organisation of that name was dissolved. [20]
notes - there are no secure secondary sources that accord with the definitive evidence from the primary sources. This may be highly regrettable but this is a reflection upon those scholars who have written about the Divine Light Mission, in many cases the errors once made are repeated in a log rolling process from one author to another. I've added Melton to references re: the court case, and also recast the name change process to exclude the date for Australia which isn't availble online (just the fact of the change) and included the Elan Vital Foundation as an indicator of wider use of that name. The UK DLM is an important 'end point' but there is no source which describes it as such, the wording I've used isn't the most precise, but does anyone dispute the fact that name ceased to be in use after 1995 ? Given the claims for much earlier dissolution some form of wording that acknowledges a position which is not in common dispute seems allowable. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC) addendum - Satayal Pal is the legal name as used in the Court documents.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems like this lingering dispute is over a small detail. Let's move forward with the basic reorganization that was original proposed, and save for later the fine points of when the DLM in UK became or was replaced by the EV, etc. Let's not make the perfect be the enemy of the good. Will Beback talk 23:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
• The family rift was followed by a schizm within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satya Pal, also known as Bal Bhagwan Ji, now Satpal Maharaj) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Pal) retained the DLM following outside of India. [21] [22] [23] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital and this progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat. [24] In India, Satpal Maharaj (previously known as Bal Bhagwan Ji) founded two new entities Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti and Manav Sewa Dal, the latter being registered in 1985. M.U.S.S and M.S.D became vehicles by which Satpal Maharaj has promoted his ideas and supported “disseminating the practical knowledge of the soul”. [25] [26] -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 12:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
*Btw, reading that Daily Excelsior article, you never knew it was Satpal exploding the peace bomb in Delhi back in 1970, did ya? -- JN 466 14:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Here a rewrite with the secondary sources:
The family rift was followed by a schism within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest brother, Satpal Rawat, in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while Prem Rawat retained the DLM following outside of India. [27] [28] [29] His Divine Light Mission organization was replaced by Elan Vital in the 1980s; [30] [31] the U.S. organization's name was changed to Elan Vital in 1983, by filing an entity name change. [32] [33] In India, Satpal Maharaj founded Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti and went into politics. [34] [35] The Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti movement worships Satpal, his wife and sons as well as another brother and his wife and children as its "holy family" and has an associated volunteer organisation, the Manav Sewa Dal. [34] [35]
-- JN 466 00:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Terry asks how I intend to 'interface' 'my' new chronology. For an article that is effectively a 'history, the operative Chronology should be clear to the reader, and is something which should be fully established by consensus amongst editors, so I have no fixed view on how the Chronology should (or even could) work with the existing structure until there is some established consensus on what the Chronology is. The point is that the current text is substantially achronious and does not assist the reader in understanding the history. My preference would be a structure that reflects a chronology of management/oversight/figure head changes, such as:
Thereafter the beliefs (and notable fluctuations) attached to the main phases (Hans Rawat ->Geographic Expansion), (Geographic Expansion ->Schism), (Indian consolidation), (Guru Maharaji consolidation), (Maharaji phase) can be discussed in discrete sections. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 16:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
From my casual observation, the history chronology of DLM is not `standard' as it is.
I see that the current text in our article is unsourced. On another page, Nik Wright2 has posted a link showing that the DLM ceased to be a charitable organization in 1995. [3] Should we change the date to 1995? Will Beback talk 06:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
In summary, it’s not simply a matter of changing the date but of restructuring the text to reflect (as far as the sources allow)the history of what actually happened. I suggest wholly separating (by paragraph and/or section) the ashram closure and minor changes like the US headquarters move, from the major issue of the name changes and actual closure of the UK DLM. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I re-added Marolyn's occupation, but after thinking about it a little more now, I have a couple of thoughts. I think I would support adding it into the PR article, and removing it from here. It has a little more to do with his life, than that of the DLM. Also, I don't know that the 2 articles necessarily need to have verbatim text copied and pasted between them, otherwise, it's really just one article with 2 separate pages. Thoughts? Usual flames? -- Maelefique (talk) 17:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
If we can successfully refocus the article to reflect the actual organisational history as it is relevant to all aspects of the use of the name Divine Light Mission, then it should be possible to make this a distinct article from Prem Rawat. The existing construct has in effect been to merely mirror the Rawat article by using exactly the same sources for both, just using here the bits of text that happen to include the name DLM as opposed to the name Guru Maharaj Ji. So I would envisage in this article, cutting the personal details about Rawat to the bare minimum. In the case of Marolyn Rawat, the judgement would be "does her occupation have a bearing on developments in the Divine Light Mission ?" I think the answer is no. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 20:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The logical separation of the treatment of ashrams from the treatment of name change, should concordant with the logical split between the treatment of Satpal's following and Prem Rawat's following - this can be achieved by introducing a new section "Two Movements"(largle a place holder for the present). Derks and Lans provide the reference base for this new Section. The necessary changes are as follows:
The family rift was followed by a schizm within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satyapal) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Rawat) retained the DLM following outside of India. [4] [5] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital, and this progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat. Divine Light Missions in Australia, France and elsewhere were renamed, in 1995 the UK Divine Light Mission was dissolved. [6] [7] [8] -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 09:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(insert) I've begun the process of editing the draft. As this is likely to require a number of disparate changes I've started a section at the bottom of the page for notes that may be more substantial than the edit summary allows for.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 08:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The often-heard term International Red Cross is actually a misnomer, as no official organization as such exists bearing that name. In reality, the movement consists of several distinct organizations that are legally independent from each other, but are united within the Movement through common basic principles, objectives, symbols, statutes and governing organs. The Movement's parts:
Terry Macro ( talk) 03:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Terry is of course right. There was no split in the DLM outside India. Who says so?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 09:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Come on, Nik, not everybody can be a bookworm. A little unreferenced common sense should be tolerable by WP, no need to get nasty. What in your discretion is tendentious in my edit?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 10:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
You have not answered my question, instead you're bullying. Maybe I haven't understood WP right. This is a talkpage, isn't it? And where do you perceive a complaint, let alone endless ones?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 12:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Not really.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 03:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Here is the existing text that most direcly addresses the split's legal aspect. These appear in different sections, which is an organizational problem addressed by the proposed change.
I can't find Lewiss 1998 The encyclopedia of cults, sects, and new religions at the movement, but here's what the same author wrote in another book the same year:
Downtown devotes some attention to the underlying causes of the split, but doesn't appear to mention the court case specifically. However he may mention it somewhere in th book that I can't find. His coverage is almost exclusively of the American movement.
I can't find Partidge, but Melton's own Encyclopedic Handbook of Cultsin America 1986 says:
There are more sources, including a number of contemporary newspaper and magazine articles that covered the legal dispute. However since there isn't any source that denies there was a split I don't see the need to keep copying in more material. Getting back to the question at hand - are there any objections to the proposal? Will Beback talk 01:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The family rift was followed by a schism within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satyapal) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Rawat) retained the DLM following outside of India. [9] [10] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital, and this progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat. Divine Light Missions in Australia, France and elsewhere were renamed; the UK Divine Light Mission was dissolved in 1995. [11] [12] [13]
the Mission de la lumière divine, created in 1973, was succeeded by the Centre élan vital in 1987.
• The family rift was followed by a schizm within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satya Pal, also known as Bal Bhagwan Ji, now Satpal Maharaj) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Pal) retained the DLM following outside of India. [14] [15] [16] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital and a Swiss Foundation of the same name was created. [17] [18] [19]. Elan Vital progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat and in 1995 one of the last remaining usages of the Divine Light Mission name came to an end when the UK organisation of that name was dissolved. [20]
notes - there are no secure secondary sources that accord with the definitive evidence from the primary sources. This may be highly regrettable but this is a reflection upon those scholars who have written about the Divine Light Mission, in many cases the errors once made are repeated in a log rolling process from one author to another. I've added Melton to references re: the court case, and also recast the name change process to exclude the date for Australia which isn't availble online (just the fact of the change) and included the Elan Vital Foundation as an indicator of wider use of that name. The UK DLM is an important 'end point' but there is no source which describes it as such, the wording I've used isn't the most precise, but does anyone dispute the fact that name ceased to be in use after 1995 ? Given the claims for much earlier dissolution some form of wording that acknowledges a position which is not in common dispute seems allowable. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC) addendum - Satayal Pal is the legal name as used in the Court documents.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems like this lingering dispute is over a small detail. Let's move forward with the basic reorganization that was original proposed, and save for later the fine points of when the DLM in UK became or was replaced by the EV, etc. Let's not make the perfect be the enemy of the good. Will Beback talk 23:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
• The family rift was followed by a schizm within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest Rawat brother (Satya Pal, also known as Bal Bhagwan Ji, now Satpal Maharaj) in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while the youngest brother (Prem Pal) retained the DLM following outside of India. [21] [22] [23] In 1983 the US Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital and this progressively became the corporate name of the organisations that supported Prem Rawat. [24] In India, Satpal Maharaj (previously known as Bal Bhagwan Ji) founded two new entities Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti and Manav Sewa Dal, the latter being registered in 1985. M.U.S.S and M.S.D became vehicles by which Satpal Maharaj has promoted his ideas and supported “disseminating the practical knowledge of the soul”. [25] [26] -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 12:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
*Btw, reading that Daily Excelsior article, you never knew it was Satpal exploding the peace bomb in Delhi back in 1970, did ya? -- JN 466 14:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Here a rewrite with the secondary sources:
The family rift was followed by a schism within the global Divine Light Mission. In 1978 a court-ordered settlement confirmed the eldest brother, Satpal Rawat, in the leadership role of the Indian DLM, while Prem Rawat retained the DLM following outside of India. [27] [28] [29] His Divine Light Mission organization was replaced by Elan Vital in the 1980s; [30] [31] the U.S. organization's name was changed to Elan Vital in 1983, by filing an entity name change. [32] [33] In India, Satpal Maharaj founded Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti and went into politics. [34] [35] The Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti movement worships Satpal, his wife and sons as well as another brother and his wife and children as its "holy family" and has an associated volunteer organisation, the Manav Sewa Dal. [34] [35]
-- JN 466 00:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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