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Why are these being added back? This article is 'Dissident Irish Republican campaign', so it's generally Irish republicans not a complete history of Northern Ireland post-GFA. While The Troubles has loyalists in the infobox Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997 doesn't, and this embarrassment of an article is the same as the latter not the former. Have dissident loyalists carried out any attacks on dissident republicans, or vice versa? Rhetorical question by the way, unless sources are provided. Similarly is there even a dissident loyalist campaign at all? Dissident groups may exist, but they don't seem to be going much. Any "campaign" by dissident loyalists appears to have absolutely nothing to do with the campaign by dissident republicans, other than the ostensible reason for their campaign in the first place. They are not so much ships that pass in the night as ships in different oceans. 2 lines of K 303 06:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources actually source the majority of the text which was added to the lead, so I removed it per WP:BURDEN Mo ainm ~Talk 21:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
There have been very few deaths in recent years. There is a defacto truce in place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pug6666 ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Why is republican capitalised in the title? Gob Lofa ( talk) 00:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Anyone? Gob Lofa ( talk) 09:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm a little perturbed by this creeping capitalisation. Does anyone know the answer? Gob Lofa ( talk) 18:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Article is outdated, new information is needed for the timeline & main article. More information should also be researched about the Irish & Ulster militias participating in the conflict and there various splits, to see if they should be included in the infobox. Citadel48 ( talk) 02:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Should this article be name 'Dissident Republican campaign' when it also involves loyalist paramilitaries? I have altered the title to a more accurate one in the infobox for now. Leanseahy ( talk) 22:12, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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Thank you
Simon Levchenko (
talk)
03:14, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Hello sir. I would liked to comment here on why I undid your edits to the page Dissident Irish Republican campaign. As with the page for WWII, the Oka Crisis, Operation Harvest, Loughgall Ambush, American Civil War, and Years of Lead (Italy), and many others, the flags are for illustrative purposes solely. No objection was raised there as to their neutrality, thus it I am confused why suddenly there is here.
The page said For example, with an English flag next to him, Paul McCartney looks like an "English singer-songwriter from Liverpool who was in the Beatles"; without the flag next to him, he looks like an "English singer-songwriter from Liverpool who was in the Beatles. This is not an individual; and as the afore-listed pages illustrate, others have done the same.
Sincerely, Simon Levchenko ( talk) 16:53, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
With all due respect sir; I would appreciate you telling me why you reference FLAGCRUFT in this case, whilst not in the pages nonpertaining to your nationality. Simon Levchenko ( talk) 16:03, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Simon Levchenko, be aware that there are editing sanctions in place on this article, including a limit of 1 revert per day. As you are a new editor, you may not have previously been aware of this; you are now.
I have deleted the flags and emblems in accordance with WP:FLAGCRUFT - a WP guideline. There is no good reason for their inclusion. I have removed the Provisional IRA from the infobox because there is no mention whatsoever of them within the body of the article in relation to any actions post-1998, let alone any referenced material. If they are worthy of inclusion in an infobox, they should already be covered within the article body. Any unreferenced material may be challenged. This has been. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Clearly this post-Troubles conflict isn't necessarily one performed strictly by republicans. Dissident loyalists are also active with their own activities. Doesn't that mean that the title of the page is wrong and misleading? This conflict is simply a much smaller-scale version of the Troubles, with both republicans and loyalists involved. -- Gateshead001 ( talk) 12:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi just though this page should be updated to mention a recent event involving this page's topic. Reference: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51401435 UkPagan2020 ( talk) 18:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
The bottom of the infobox claims "Civilian deaths: 97 (including 2 informers, 19 alleged criminals, and 7 former paramilitaries)". Other casualties listed are "PSNI: 2 killed", "RUC: 1 killed" (the only RUC member killed since 1997, was killed by loyalists by the way, just thought I'd mention it), "British Army: 2 killed", "Garda: 2 killed", "NIPS: 2 killed", "NIRA: 2 killed by gangs", "RIRA: 4 killed", "3 Killed" (presumably INLA, since the infobox doesn't actually say), "IRLA: 2 killed by CIRA", "ONH (Real IRA): 1 killed in murder-suicide". That's 118 by my calculations. Yet the infobox claims 145. Who's writing this rubbish? FDW777 ( talk) 20:13, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
There's disagreement over whether INLA actions in 1998, particularly the Newtownhamilton bombing, constitutes part of the dissident Irish republican campaign.
Some references in favour:
According to the The Conflict Archive in Northern Ireland (CAIN) Chronology of the Conflict Security sources believed that the "real" Irish Republican Army (rIRA) was involved in supplying the INLA with Semtex commercial explosive which was thought to have been used as a component in the bomb [1]
According to an Irish Times article from June 26 1998 warning was given by the INLA but there is widespread speculation that the device was made by IRA dissidents. [2]
An Associated Press (AP) report from 24/06/1998 on the bombing describes the INLA as a Republican splinter group that opposes the Good Friday peace agreement and a Republican splinter group which remains opposed to a peaceful solution to the problems in Northern Ireland. [3]
Also, the Newtownhamilton bombing is already actually included as part of the dissident republican campaign in this article's expanded infobox list of incidents.
I'll go and re-add INLA with expanded references but would like your input first FDW777
NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 17:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
lol to be fair that wasn't the important part of the quote (they aren't dissidents because they splintered and the label was used in the media for the group throughout The Troubles) but their opposition to the Good Friday Agreement which had been signed a few months earlier. In the "Abstracts on Organisations" page CAIN explicitly lists the RIRA as perpetrators of the Newtowhamilton bombing [4]. -- NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 17:52, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Alright resolution: Don't include INLA as a participant in dissident Republican but place significantly more emphasis on complicity of RIRA in Newtownhamilton bombing page and Timeline of Irish National Liberation Army actions Appreciate the dialogue -- NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 18:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
'There was a floating membership between Continuity and the RIRA. Sometimes we didn't know who was in what group. Lads from Continuity would often be asked to take part in an operation for the RIRA. I suppose they took the attitude that they were fighting the British and it didn't matter what organisation they belonged to', said one RIRA Army Council member.
Campbell's strategy was to destabilise the ongoing negotiations in Northern Ireland through the work of the INLA, CIRA and RIRA. When the CIRA joined the border rebellion, the INLA got involved. The strategy had three components. The INLA would provide stolen vehicles, which the RIRA would transform into car bombs. A mixture of RIRA and CIRA men would oversee the third stage of the strategy by delivering bombs to targets
eventually decided on a series of car bombings mounted by a coalition of republicans drawn from the CIRA, INLA and the RIRA
although a stream of intelligence reports indicated the Provisionals were helping McKevitt launch car bomb attacks across Northern Ireland . . . 'PIRA-Real IRA co-operation in South Armagh was happening at a frightening rate prior to Omagh and causing great concern within the PIRA hierarchy in Belfast,' one of Northern Ireland's most senior anti-terrorist offices commented several months later . . . Again, Provisionals were believed to have assisted the Real IRA in planning the attacks
Interesting. Would it be worthwhile having a few lines on this group dynamic of the early dissident campaign? -- NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 14:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
This reference does not reference 184 deaths from the Dissident Irish republican campaign. The figures are clearly marked as being from 1989-2019, with the vast majority of the deaths occurring 1989-1998. Even if it was simply listing deaths from 1998 onwards, it isn't the case that every single death is automatically part of the Dissident Irish republican campaign. FDW777 ( talk) 10:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Since a certain IP editor doesn't understand the figures, I'll explain more. There's a graph at the top of the page of the claimed reference for 184 deaths. The legend on the graph shows it goes from 1989 to 2019, and by hovering you see the deaths for each year (it's quite simple to tell which years have 0 deaths by the flat line). As this article states, the dissident campaign began in 1998 (although it could be debated as early as 1994, but the dissidents didn't verifiably kill anyone before 1998). The graph lists 29 deaths in 1998, 2 in 2009, 1 in 2011 and 1 in 2019. 29+2+1+1 does not equal 184. There's not even any point adding the claimed total of 33 deaths, as it excludes 2 deaths that are indisputably part of the campaign (David Caldwell in 2002, Stephen Carroll in 2009), one that should be almost certainly classed as part of the campaign (Real IRA volunteer Ronan MacLochlainn, killed by the Garda during a RIRA organised armed robbery) and various other killings that are open to debate. FDW777 ( talk) 15:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Are there any objection to using "33+" using the above reference (which does list 33 people killed by dissidents), in this and some other articles? I ask because I've had to be slightly inconsistent this morning. At List of conflicts in Europe I replaced the absurd figure of "145 killed" with "Unknown". However at List of wars by death toll there is a list that's not in table format that claimed 158 deaths, and I did replace that with "33+" since it seemed inappropriate to, for example, list it at the bottom of the list with "Unknown" and I wasn't sure what else to do. FDW777 ( talk) 11:31, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Forgive me for barging into fields I am not an expert on (meaning both the Troubles, and editing ongoing events and disputes). As a neutral reader, I wonder if the number of casualties caused by the opposite side, inserted at the end of the lead, does not give the impression of, to coin a phrase, comparatism in violence; of leading the reader to justify by comparison - without implying that User:Buidhe, or anyone else, had this intention. NikosGouliaros ( talk) 08:36, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Did it really? Or did it begin during the Troubles? FDW777 ( talk) 18:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Ahh ok. I originally read “at the end” to mean during the final phases, not after or following it’s conclusion. Maybe the former just made more sense. Is the 1994 activity you’re referring too the CIRA bombing? OgamD218 ( talk) 08:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
I have no objections OgamD218 ( talk) 13:20, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Unlike the Provisional IRA's campaign, there is no counter-campaign by dissident, or even mainstream, loyalists. See page 256 of Loyalists by Peter Taylor
The following month, the UFF and the UVF passed an even bigger test when they did not retaliate in the wake of the 'Real' IRA's Omagh bomb...The temptation to retaliate in kind, as they had done so often before in the wake of IRA atrocities, was resisted. Times and strategies had changed.
There is not a single incident mentioned in the whole article detailing loyalists actions in reaction to those of dissident republicans. Loyalists feuding with each other are diddly squat to do with the dissident republican campaign.
Since I will be mentioning this discussion thread in relation to other articles, a career criminal being gunned down by an LVF-linked drugs gang following a row over missing money is nothing to do with this topic. Also 158 "security-related" deaths in Northern Ireland since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement are not deaths caused by the dissident republican campaign, since that article specifically says that the "majority of the deaths were murders carried out by republican and loyalist paramilitaries, who mostly targeted victims within their own communities". To repeat my earlier point, loyalists killing other loyalists are nothing to do with the dissident republican campaign. Kathleen's bike ( talk) 13:57, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
I believe there is enough evidence that this ought to continue to be listed under “minor skirmishes/clashes”, as dissident actions continue at a low level today. The Border Campaign is considered to have been a conflict, so it’s obvious to me the dissident campaign should not be removed at this point, considering there are sporadic ongoing attacks. An unrelated user with more knowledge/authority on here ought to look into its continued admissibility. NateBoyer2000 ( talk) 01:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Isn't it time that ANP get its own page as they're an active independent organisation? — Preceding
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Why are these being added back? This article is 'Dissident Irish Republican campaign', so it's generally Irish republicans not a complete history of Northern Ireland post-GFA. While The Troubles has loyalists in the infobox Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997 doesn't, and this embarrassment of an article is the same as the latter not the former. Have dissident loyalists carried out any attacks on dissident republicans, or vice versa? Rhetorical question by the way, unless sources are provided. Similarly is there even a dissident loyalist campaign at all? Dissident groups may exist, but they don't seem to be going much. Any "campaign" by dissident loyalists appears to have absolutely nothing to do with the campaign by dissident republicans, other than the ostensible reason for their campaign in the first place. They are not so much ships that pass in the night as ships in different oceans. 2 lines of K 303 06:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources actually source the majority of the text which was added to the lead, so I removed it per WP:BURDEN Mo ainm ~Talk 21:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
There have been very few deaths in recent years. There is a defacto truce in place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pug6666 ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Why is republican capitalised in the title? Gob Lofa ( talk) 00:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Anyone? Gob Lofa ( talk) 09:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm a little perturbed by this creeping capitalisation. Does anyone know the answer? Gob Lofa ( talk) 18:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Article is outdated, new information is needed for the timeline & main article. More information should also be researched about the Irish & Ulster militias participating in the conflict and there various splits, to see if they should be included in the infobox. Citadel48 ( talk) 02:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Should this article be name 'Dissident Republican campaign' when it also involves loyalist paramilitaries? I have altered the title to a more accurate one in the infobox for now. Leanseahy ( talk) 22:12, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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Thank you
Simon Levchenko (
talk)
03:14, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Hello sir. I would liked to comment here on why I undid your edits to the page Dissident Irish Republican campaign. As with the page for WWII, the Oka Crisis, Operation Harvest, Loughgall Ambush, American Civil War, and Years of Lead (Italy), and many others, the flags are for illustrative purposes solely. No objection was raised there as to their neutrality, thus it I am confused why suddenly there is here.
The page said For example, with an English flag next to him, Paul McCartney looks like an "English singer-songwriter from Liverpool who was in the Beatles"; without the flag next to him, he looks like an "English singer-songwriter from Liverpool who was in the Beatles. This is not an individual; and as the afore-listed pages illustrate, others have done the same.
Sincerely, Simon Levchenko ( talk) 16:53, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
With all due respect sir; I would appreciate you telling me why you reference FLAGCRUFT in this case, whilst not in the pages nonpertaining to your nationality. Simon Levchenko ( talk) 16:03, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Simon Levchenko, be aware that there are editing sanctions in place on this article, including a limit of 1 revert per day. As you are a new editor, you may not have previously been aware of this; you are now.
I have deleted the flags and emblems in accordance with WP:FLAGCRUFT - a WP guideline. There is no good reason for their inclusion. I have removed the Provisional IRA from the infobox because there is no mention whatsoever of them within the body of the article in relation to any actions post-1998, let alone any referenced material. If they are worthy of inclusion in an infobox, they should already be covered within the article body. Any unreferenced material may be challenged. This has been. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Clearly this post-Troubles conflict isn't necessarily one performed strictly by republicans. Dissident loyalists are also active with their own activities. Doesn't that mean that the title of the page is wrong and misleading? This conflict is simply a much smaller-scale version of the Troubles, with both republicans and loyalists involved. -- Gateshead001 ( talk) 12:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi just though this page should be updated to mention a recent event involving this page's topic. Reference: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51401435 UkPagan2020 ( talk) 18:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
The bottom of the infobox claims "Civilian deaths: 97 (including 2 informers, 19 alleged criminals, and 7 former paramilitaries)". Other casualties listed are "PSNI: 2 killed", "RUC: 1 killed" (the only RUC member killed since 1997, was killed by loyalists by the way, just thought I'd mention it), "British Army: 2 killed", "Garda: 2 killed", "NIPS: 2 killed", "NIRA: 2 killed by gangs", "RIRA: 4 killed", "3 Killed" (presumably INLA, since the infobox doesn't actually say), "IRLA: 2 killed by CIRA", "ONH (Real IRA): 1 killed in murder-suicide". That's 118 by my calculations. Yet the infobox claims 145. Who's writing this rubbish? FDW777 ( talk) 20:13, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
There's disagreement over whether INLA actions in 1998, particularly the Newtownhamilton bombing, constitutes part of the dissident Irish republican campaign.
Some references in favour:
According to the The Conflict Archive in Northern Ireland (CAIN) Chronology of the Conflict Security sources believed that the "real" Irish Republican Army (rIRA) was involved in supplying the INLA with Semtex commercial explosive which was thought to have been used as a component in the bomb [1]
According to an Irish Times article from June 26 1998 warning was given by the INLA but there is widespread speculation that the device was made by IRA dissidents. [2]
An Associated Press (AP) report from 24/06/1998 on the bombing describes the INLA as a Republican splinter group that opposes the Good Friday peace agreement and a Republican splinter group which remains opposed to a peaceful solution to the problems in Northern Ireland. [3]
Also, the Newtownhamilton bombing is already actually included as part of the dissident republican campaign in this article's expanded infobox list of incidents.
I'll go and re-add INLA with expanded references but would like your input first FDW777
NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 17:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
lol to be fair that wasn't the important part of the quote (they aren't dissidents because they splintered and the label was used in the media for the group throughout The Troubles) but their opposition to the Good Friday Agreement which had been signed a few months earlier. In the "Abstracts on Organisations" page CAIN explicitly lists the RIRA as perpetrators of the Newtowhamilton bombing [4]. -- NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 17:52, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Alright resolution: Don't include INLA as a participant in dissident Republican but place significantly more emphasis on complicity of RIRA in Newtownhamilton bombing page and Timeline of Irish National Liberation Army actions Appreciate the dialogue -- NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 18:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
'There was a floating membership between Continuity and the RIRA. Sometimes we didn't know who was in what group. Lads from Continuity would often be asked to take part in an operation for the RIRA. I suppose they took the attitude that they were fighting the British and it didn't matter what organisation they belonged to', said one RIRA Army Council member.
Campbell's strategy was to destabilise the ongoing negotiations in Northern Ireland through the work of the INLA, CIRA and RIRA. When the CIRA joined the border rebellion, the INLA got involved. The strategy had three components. The INLA would provide stolen vehicles, which the RIRA would transform into car bombs. A mixture of RIRA and CIRA men would oversee the third stage of the strategy by delivering bombs to targets
eventually decided on a series of car bombings mounted by a coalition of republicans drawn from the CIRA, INLA and the RIRA
although a stream of intelligence reports indicated the Provisionals were helping McKevitt launch car bomb attacks across Northern Ireland . . . 'PIRA-Real IRA co-operation in South Armagh was happening at a frightening rate prior to Omagh and causing great concern within the PIRA hierarchy in Belfast,' one of Northern Ireland's most senior anti-terrorist offices commented several months later . . . Again, Provisionals were believed to have assisted the Real IRA in planning the attacks
Interesting. Would it be worthwhile having a few lines on this group dynamic of the early dissident campaign? -- NelsonEdit2 ( talk) 14:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
This reference does not reference 184 deaths from the Dissident Irish republican campaign. The figures are clearly marked as being from 1989-2019, with the vast majority of the deaths occurring 1989-1998. Even if it was simply listing deaths from 1998 onwards, it isn't the case that every single death is automatically part of the Dissident Irish republican campaign. FDW777 ( talk) 10:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Since a certain IP editor doesn't understand the figures, I'll explain more. There's a graph at the top of the page of the claimed reference for 184 deaths. The legend on the graph shows it goes from 1989 to 2019, and by hovering you see the deaths for each year (it's quite simple to tell which years have 0 deaths by the flat line). As this article states, the dissident campaign began in 1998 (although it could be debated as early as 1994, but the dissidents didn't verifiably kill anyone before 1998). The graph lists 29 deaths in 1998, 2 in 2009, 1 in 2011 and 1 in 2019. 29+2+1+1 does not equal 184. There's not even any point adding the claimed total of 33 deaths, as it excludes 2 deaths that are indisputably part of the campaign (David Caldwell in 2002, Stephen Carroll in 2009), one that should be almost certainly classed as part of the campaign (Real IRA volunteer Ronan MacLochlainn, killed by the Garda during a RIRA organised armed robbery) and various other killings that are open to debate. FDW777 ( talk) 15:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Are there any objection to using "33+" using the above reference (which does list 33 people killed by dissidents), in this and some other articles? I ask because I've had to be slightly inconsistent this morning. At List of conflicts in Europe I replaced the absurd figure of "145 killed" with "Unknown". However at List of wars by death toll there is a list that's not in table format that claimed 158 deaths, and I did replace that with "33+" since it seemed inappropriate to, for example, list it at the bottom of the list with "Unknown" and I wasn't sure what else to do. FDW777 ( talk) 11:31, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Forgive me for barging into fields I am not an expert on (meaning both the Troubles, and editing ongoing events and disputes). As a neutral reader, I wonder if the number of casualties caused by the opposite side, inserted at the end of the lead, does not give the impression of, to coin a phrase, comparatism in violence; of leading the reader to justify by comparison - without implying that User:Buidhe, or anyone else, had this intention. NikosGouliaros ( talk) 08:36, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Did it really? Or did it begin during the Troubles? FDW777 ( talk) 18:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Ahh ok. I originally read “at the end” to mean during the final phases, not after or following it’s conclusion. Maybe the former just made more sense. Is the 1994 activity you’re referring too the CIRA bombing? OgamD218 ( talk) 08:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
I have no objections OgamD218 ( talk) 13:20, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Unlike the Provisional IRA's campaign, there is no counter-campaign by dissident, or even mainstream, loyalists. See page 256 of Loyalists by Peter Taylor
The following month, the UFF and the UVF passed an even bigger test when they did not retaliate in the wake of the 'Real' IRA's Omagh bomb...The temptation to retaliate in kind, as they had done so often before in the wake of IRA atrocities, was resisted. Times and strategies had changed.
There is not a single incident mentioned in the whole article detailing loyalists actions in reaction to those of dissident republicans. Loyalists feuding with each other are diddly squat to do with the dissident republican campaign.
Since I will be mentioning this discussion thread in relation to other articles, a career criminal being gunned down by an LVF-linked drugs gang following a row over missing money is nothing to do with this topic. Also 158 "security-related" deaths in Northern Ireland since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement are not deaths caused by the dissident republican campaign, since that article specifically says that the "majority of the deaths were murders carried out by republican and loyalist paramilitaries, who mostly targeted victims within their own communities". To repeat my earlier point, loyalists killing other loyalists are nothing to do with the dissident republican campaign. Kathleen's bike ( talk) 13:57, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
I believe there is enough evidence that this ought to continue to be listed under “minor skirmishes/clashes”, as dissident actions continue at a low level today. The Border Campaign is considered to have been a conflict, so it’s obvious to me the dissident campaign should not be removed at this point, considering there are sporadic ongoing attacks. An unrelated user with more knowledge/authority on here ought to look into its continued admissibility. NateBoyer2000 ( talk) 01:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Isn't it time that ANP get its own page as they're an active independent organisation? — Preceding
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18:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
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