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I recommend that the DI page be tagged POV until substantative corrections are made. Users like User talk:Feloniousmonk are apparently committed to keeping the page POV, reverting edits on a whim. Staking out a page for any changes, and then reverting them with for no reason is entirely inappropriate. Furthermore, much of the entry contains information that is biased, untrue, and simply out-dated. I propose allowing factual corrections directly on the page, with discussion here only when someone has a sustainable objection. Reverting edits because you fear allowing the Institute to speak for itself is a clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Truthologist 18:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the back up for the claims about political affiliation, and supporting George Bush?
I disagree, Vorpal. From what I know of them, the group seems to me pretty plainly on the "red" end of the political spectrum. Mr. Billion 04:10, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, no. I mean "red" in terms of the "red state/blue state divide." That is, the group is fairly obviously rather conservative. Mr. Billion 17:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to Wikify this article by importing material from Discovery Institute directly and by removing built-in external links which belong at the bottom of the page. After reading the Discovery Institue's web pages (several) it was obvious that the original article certainly did not present a true account of the organization. A lot more needs to be added but what it does not need is a fusion of topics related to religion and evolution that are not even found on the Institute web site under its main name. An overview should be presented here and if necessary, each of the several branches of the Institute could have their own articles if there is enough material to support them. I knew nothing about this organisation before and I only know a little more now after reading their material and trying to rewrite this article. While it is now clearer than it was, it is by no means perfect. However, I would caution against trying to use it as a means to "preach" or push a POV either for or against its stated aims. The big problem I see with the organisation is that it is trying to be a sort of Christian government in exile which if it had its way, would be the only way. Since I am not a Christian (was) I am certainly not a supporter, but this does not mean that I do not believe in fair reporting and writing. This is sort of "I may not agree with your point of view but I will defend your right to have one". I have thus created a prototype article to link to this one in order to avoid the mess previously created by another "controversial" article. MPLX/MH 06:00, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought that I could clear up the mess on "Teaching the Controversy" by simply linking to a new article for Center for Science and Culture ... only to discover that it already exists! Clearly this is a tangled web and not just one article that became bogged down. I suggest that the editors who created all of this rethink what it is that they are trying to present and do some major revisions of all of the related sites. They don't do the Discovery Institute justice and they have caused at least one site to turn into a blog that has become blocked. I don't think that anyone other than the original editors know that this is an interrelated tangled web of many sites. Not that there is anything wrong with having more than one article, but at least one of them should be well written and right now none of them are (including the one I worked on!) MPLX/MH 06:14, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- VorpalBlade 22:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From Genesis To Dominion Fat-Cat Theocrat Funds Creationism Crusade by Steve Benen Americans United for Separation of Church and State from: Church & State, July/August 2000
Anti-evolution crusader Phillip Johnson, dedicated his 1997 book, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, to "Roberta and Howard, who understood 'the wedge' because they love the Truth."
The mysterious reference is apparently a note of thanks to Howard F. Ahmanson Jr. and his wife Roberta, a wealthy and secretive Orange County, Calif., couple who have generously funded the anti-evolution movement and other right-wing causes that advance their fundamentalist Christian outlook.
Howard Ahmanson, however, is no ordinary fat-cat. The savings and loan heir has maintained a long-time relationship with Christian Reconstructionism, an extreme faction of the Religious Right that seeks to replace American democracy with a harsh fundamentalist theocracy.
Reconstructionists believe conservative Christians should take "dominion" over American society. Under their version of "biblical law," the death penalty would be required for over a dozen categories of offenders, including adulterers, homosexuals, witches, incorrigible children and those who spread "false" religions. They regard the teaching of evolution as part of a "war against Genesis."
Ahmanson served for over two decades on the board of directors of the Chalcedon Foundation, Rousas J. Rushdoony's Reconstructionist think tank that serves as the intellectual center of the movement. Ahmanson has also generously supported the Foundation's work.
As for Ahmanson's interests in opposing evolution, his relationship with leaders such as Johnson raises a series of questions about how the movement to "defeat" evolution is paid for and what the larger agenda might be.
There is little doubt that the Ahmansons have the resources to help finance anti-evolution efforts. The family's wealth grew exponentially during the 1950s and '60s when Howard Ahmanson Sr, made billions in the savings and loan industry. After his death, his estate was divided between his son Howard F. Ahmanson and the Ahmanson Foundation, which had $663 million in assets at the end of 1996. (H.F. Ahmanson & Co., the parent company of Home Savings of America, had over $47 billion in assets in 1997.)
With a vast fortune in hand, the Ahmansons are playing an active role in ensuring the anti-evolution movement's success.
According to Reason magazine, promotional materials from the Seattle-based Discovery Institute acknowledge that the Ahmanson family donated $1.5 million to the Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture for a research and publicity program to "unseat not just Darwinism but also Darwinism's cultural legacy." In fact, the August 1999 issue of the Discovery Institute's Journal recognizes an Ahmanson outfit for providing the Center's start-up funds.
With such high-powered assistance, the Center has quickly become a leading anti-evolution organization. The center's senior fellows include some of the highest profile advocates of "Intelligent Design" creationism, including David Berlinski, William Dembski and Michael Behe. Johnson himself is listed among the center's two official advisors.
Additionally, Roberta Green Ahmanson provided the funding for Dembski to appear at her alma mater, Calvin College, a conservative Christian school in Michigan, to promote his approach to attacking evolution. Although he claims to be interested only in the scientific "evidence" against evolution, Dembski's appearance was listed as part of the college's "Seminars in Christian Scholarship."
Funding from the Ahmansons is not always obvious. For example, the Fieldstead Institute is an extension of the Ahmanson empire, which frequently provides financial support for creationist causes. Dembski's appearance at Calvin was sponsored by a group called Fieldstead and Company. (Both appear to derive their name from Howard's middle name, Fieldstead.)
Ahmanson has also taken an interest in providing money for other political causes, including support for voucher subsidies for religious schools and opposition to gay rights and pornography. In the January/February 1997 issue of Religion & Liberty, published by the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty, he argued that the Bible opposes minimum wage laws.
Ahmanson's opposition to evolution remains part of his larger agenda of establishing a fundamentalist "Christian nation." In the coming years, as different groups and personalities step into the anti-evolution fray, Ahmanson's role bears watching.
apprently- in that beastly sentence which I changed once, reverted then changed back, what is being said is that
critics are unwilling to recognize that an organization (in this case, discovery institute) can have certain goals but adopt an educational policy that does not require said goals be required of schools. can you require a goal of a school?? I'm gonna leave it how it is, now with my one small change intact. I think "include" works better than that "including" that was there, which baffled me. I am uncertain about a few sentences in the neighborhood of that paragraph. The original writer should be found, I think. Is the writer saying that evolutionists challenges to the disc.inst. are ad hominem, straw man arguments?? If so, it should be stated more clearly. I'll be checking back.
someone who wants to clarify what proponents assert PLEASE jump in and make that sentence into 2 or three tolerable sentences. For the love of the potential for God-like quality in us all...
thanks, Kzzl
When I wrote this article some months ago I was careful to include the other projects of the DI, I think one was to do with bioethics (don't murder the embryos!) and the importance of the views of the, er, great amateur theologian C.S. Lewis to public life in a country with strict separation of church and state. Right now it's just turned into a messy summary of ID, for which the Center for Science and Culture article was supposed to be. And those elements stating the other interests have mysteriously vanished! Another hint: Howard Abrahamason Jr (spelling?) Dunc| ☺ 16:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The article reads:
It recently created its own Web site to ensure an individual identity and distance itself from the institute's controversial role in promoting intelligent design.
I don't doubt this is true but without some sort of supporting data/evidence this reads very POV/biased. It sounds like Wiki is either speculating on the DI's motives or simply asserting what those motives are. How do we know Cascadia is trying to "distance" itself from the institute's IDC efforts? How do we know this isn't simply their attempt to better define what Cascadia is about and better focue their Cascadia efforts? Again, I think this entry either neeeds some supporting evidence or it should be rewritten without what appears to be a biased slant/speculation. Mr Christopher 17:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
[Cut spam from 72.67.20.74.] -- Mr. Billion 16:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
If it's spam, it doesn't belong here. I've removed it. -- Mr. Billion 16:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
It's true that they haven't proven Intelligent Design through science, and it's true that they'll never do so because it's just another form of creationism. But the statement "The central item of this agenda - proving intelligent design by conducting actual scientific research - has clearly not been achieved" isn't NPOV. An ID proponent would object that ID hasn't yet been proven. At a minimum, the phrasing needs to be tweaked. -- Mr. Billion 01:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I was reading this article today and was struck at how biased it seems against the DI. First of all, the biggest section is the Criticisms section. Second, of the three footnotes, only the last can arguably be considered "unbiased." Finally, the last footnote is used to support the statement, The central item of this agenda - establishing intelligent design as legitmate science through conducting actual scientific research - has not been achieved. Except, that the last foot note is a link to the Dover school district court case decision. So now our concept of whether or not something is considered legitimate science is based on how the courts rule on cases relating to it? That is, to be kind, absurd. I am thinking that this article probably needs to be tagged as POV until it balances out. El Cubano 02:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your arguments are flawed.
Hi, I am doing research on the Discovery Institute and ran across a few spelling errors in the current Wiki article. I hope nobody has a problem, but just in case you are wondering, here is what I fixed; (1) History section, “institute’s” had an extra “s”; (2) Criticism section, “offices” did not have an “i” and “legitimate” was also missing an “i"; (3) Funding section, “totaling” had an extra “l”, “institute’s” had an extra “s”, and “News asked” was missing a space. Veritasjohn 22:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I’ve noticed what appears to be a mistake in the History section. The third paragraph starts out with this sentence:
This leaves the impression that Champan founded “a think tank opposed to materialism” with Stephen Meyer in 1993. However, as the Wiki article, and all linked sources agree, the Discovery Institute was founded in 1990, not 1993. That’s my first problem.
Second, the sentence claims that Champan “formed a plan for a think tank opposed to materialism.” I’ve searched far and wide on the internet, and find no evidence anywhere that Chapman formed the Discovery Institute to oppose materialism. There is no verification for this claim.
Third, the paragraph leaves the reader very confused about when Discovery started doing intelligent design work, and when Stephen Meyer entered the picture. It was not 1993. The Judy Wilgoren NYT article explains that Chapman first learned about Meyer in 1993, and then met him a year later.
Finally, as best I can tell, the CSC was not founded until 1996, with no money being promised until 1995 (same NYT article). Thus, the Wiki history is just in error, there was no founding with Meyer in 1993. I will propose a revision soon, once I do a bit more research. Veritasjohn 16:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's the DI's basic timeline, with the meetings that lead up to the formation of the CRSC:
FeloniousMonk 20:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I’ve re-written the unclear third paragraph in the history section, to better reflect the verifiable chronology for the founding of the CSC (first CRSC). My rewrite expanded the first sentence by making it three sentences. It has these advantages: 1) makes clear how Bruce Chapman came in contact with Meyer – the WSJ op-ed 2) Makes clear the date of their first meeting was 1995, not 1993. The NYT source makes this clear. 3) Adds information about the financing, which came in the summer of 1995 NYT source again makes this clear. 4) The new third/fourth paragraph of the History section make more logical sense now. Gives the chronology of the founding, then has the description of the CSC’s role in the intelligent design movement. 5) Cuts unclear and unnecessary information from the first version. The old version had two paragraphs about the founding of the CSC, but it was very unclear how everything developed. Veritasjohn 23:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
"Founded in 1990 as a branch of the Hudson Institute, based in Indianapolis, the institute was named for the H.M.S. Discovery, which explored Puget Sound in 1792. Mr. Chapman, a co-author of a 1966 critique of Barry M. Goldwater's anti-civil-rights campaign, "The Party That Lost Its Head," had been a liberal Republican on the Seattle City Council and candidate for governor, but moved to the right in the Reagan administration, where he served as director of the Census Bureau and worked for Edwin Meese III.
In late 1993, Mr. Chapman clipped an essay in The Wall Street Journal by Dr. Meyer, who was teaching at a Christian college in Spokane, Wash., concerning a biologist yanked from a lecture hall for discussing intelligent design. About a year later, over dinner at the Sorrento Hotel here, Dr. Meyer and George Gilder, Mr. Chapman's long-ago Harvard roommate and his writing partner, discovered parallel theories of mind over materialism in their separate studies of biology and economics. "Bruce kind of perked up and said, 'This is what makes a think tank,' " Dr. Meyer recalled. "There was kind of an 'Aha!' moment in the conversation, there was a common metaphysic in these two ideas." That summer of 1995, Mr. Chapman and Dr. Meyer had dinner with a representative of the Ahmansons, the banking billionaires from Orange County, Calif., who had previously given a small grant to the institute and underwritten an early conclave of intelligent design scholars. Dr. Meyer, who had grown friendly enough with the Ahmansons to tutor their young son in science, recalled being asked, "What could you do if you had some financial backing?" So in 1996, with the promise of $750,000 over three years from the Ahmansons and a smaller grant from the MacLellan Foundation, which supports organizations "committed to furthering the Kingdom of Christ," according to its Web site, the institute's Center for Science and Culture was born.
"Bruce is a contrarian, and this was a contrarian idea," said Edward J. Larson, the historian and author of a Pulitzer Prize-winning book on the Scopes Monkey Trial, who was an early fellow at the institute, but left in part because of its drift to the right. "The institute was living hand-to-mouth. Here was an academic, credible activity that involved funders. It interested conservatives. It brought in money."
FeloniousMonk - Perhaps my first re-write can be modified. The problem is, the current Wiki still has serious problems:
"In 1993, having formed a plan for a think tank opposed to materialism with Stephen C. Meyer and George Gilder (Chapman's former Harvard roommate and his writing partner), Chapman secured seed money in the form of a grant from Howard Ahmanson, Jr. and $450,000 from the MacLellan Foundation. [2] These underwrote the earliest nucleus of intelligent design authors who titled themselves "The Wedge" [3]. Meyer had previously tutored Ahmanson's son in science and Meyer recalls being asked by Ahmanson "What could you do if you had some financial backing?"
Veritasjohn 14:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I expanded the Cascadia section of the page with more background and explanation of what the center does. The new version should provide more encyclopedia type information about Cascadia.
I did not remove existing material on Cascadia, but merely added the new information. Veritasjohn 22:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The DI recently hired the same PR firm that promoted the former Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the Contract With America, Creative Response Concepts. Also, given CRC's history of using blogs and other online sources, we will to guard against their using this article as another channel to promote their employer's views. FeloniousMonk 02:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone cares, this article is now mentioned in Portal:Creationism's did you know section. JoshuaZ 03:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I added a subsection for the Technology and Democracy cause at DI. It was not previously mentioned in the Wiki, despite being a cause from the founding to the present (involving George Gilder). Veritasjohn 17:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I took out the "media complaints division" viewpoint. Even if it were cited, it would not be appropriate in the links section. No other link is editorialized in a similar fashion. Links should just have a fair description, not a critical jab. Saint-George 19:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed two lings which do not seem to belong in the External Links section. They were both replaced, several times. In the discussion, I will now defend why at least the first link should be removed. The pandasthumb blog post titled “Correct This!” is badly out of date. It was written September 5th, 2005. I checked the history, an IP address added the link to the DI Wiki on 26 September 2005
[25] It may well have been linkspam added by the pandasthumb author of the blog post (though we cannot know).
This link should now be removed. It is more than a year old. Much of the blog post is simply out of date. Here are just a few of the badly outdated parts:
Furthermore, this blog post is just that – a blog post. There are hundreds of blog posts back and forth between Discovery’s ENV and Pandasthumb. There is no reason to include this blog post as opposed to hundreds of other blog posts. The actual content of the blog post criticizes Michael Behe’s blurb supporting a book, which was plugged briefly on ENV. This is merely an outdated blog-war criticism of Michael Behe, not interesting information about the Discovery Institute (this Wiki page’s topic). Veritasjohn 16:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted Truthologist ( talk · contribs)'s undiscussed changes to the article a second time now. His edits white washed ID's status within the DI by downplaying them and deleting a sourced passage of DI co-founder Gilder on the prominence of ID at the institute. Truthologist's changes also downplayed the conservative sources of funding of the DI while boosting the prominence of that of the Gates Foundation, which only funds work on transportation issues. Since sort of spinning and downplaying of the facts is not going to work when there are so many sources available. Considering the subject of this article has declared war on Wikipedia, [26] if there are specific things in the article that are inaccurate and need to be changed, they need to be discussed here first. FeloniousMonk 19:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It is quickly becoming apparent why "Felon" is in the handle "Feloniousmonk". This user will not allow any changes to this article, regardless of sourced information, or the inaccurate nature of some content (See e.g. [27].) Furthermore, there is no "Whitewashing" taking place--and no information about "Gilder" was removed in that edit. If this rampant and biased behavior continues, I recommend this matter be referred to Wikipedia for appropriate arbitration.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.139.168 ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 15 October 2006
Seeking discussion on adding a link to article: " Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade ."
Is there any objection to placing the article in external links?
I am removing strongly POV material from entry here, specifically this sentence:
It seeks to portray evolution as a "theory in crisis" and leave the scientific community looking closed-minded, opening the public school science curriculum to creation-based alternatives to evolution such as intelligent design, and thereby undermining "scientific materialism."
What is the source for this? Sounds like pure editorializing (or perhaps paraphrasing unsourced material) to me. Thoughts? Truthologist 03:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The above were removed in this edit by Jim62sch citing this reason: "Wikipedia's purpose is not to be an outlet for DI sponsored events -- that [sic] what DI has its own web site for." I disagree, and believe the more information about the Institute and its program and events in this entry, the better. Please provide other justification for such a major deletion, and cite appropriate established WP if applicable. Truthologist 17:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not: "Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia."
Truthologist added an excessive number of links to DI material: [29] He then restored it when Jimsch62 rejected it as link spam: [30] 216.163.84.151 ( talk · contribs) restored the links in the form of links to archives/search results: [31] User:216.163.84.151's IP just happens to be that of the Discovery Institute. Having the DI restore Truthologist's questionable edits calls into question whether there are editors here working on the Discovery Institute's behalf or that its PR firm, Creative Response Concepts. WP:AUTO provides for preventing editors from editing articles in which they are directly involved, particularly when done in a biased manner, as have been seen here. To avoid future conflict and disputes, anyone editing here who is an involved party with the DI should limit themselves to participating on this article's talk page and refrain from editing the article directly. FeloniousMonk 23:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Although a source has been provided to the claim that it is a conservative Christian think tank, there are a few problems. One, there are no cited sources to the Discovery Institute itself that say it is a conservative Christian think tank. It has been my experience in controversial matters that hearsay is not always reliable. Second, if we go straight to the horse's mouth and see what the Discovery Institute says [32], we see,
For specific examples, note that David Klinghoffer is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute [33] and is an Orthodox Jew [34]--not a conservative Christian. Another example, David Berlinksi is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute (in the CSC branch) [35] and is an agnostic [36] [37]. -- Wade A. Tisthammer 14:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm usure about the proposal by Wade. My opinion is that such indecisiveness might be more appropriate in the body of the article. The introduction should be plain and simple facts, not a contentious clump of argumentation. If the label "Christian" does not fit and is not substantiated, just go with what is well-established on the facts. -- Platonic Realm 19:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The DI in promoting ID is promoting an explicitely Christian goal: "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." [47] This fact was recognized in the Dover ruling which said "ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science" [48] ... "ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." [49] And as the article details and is supported by multiple sources the vast majority of the DI's funding comes wealthy conservative Christians and explicitely Christian organizations. DI members are overwhelmingly Christian, the few exceptions are touted by the DI as part of their "Big Tent" strategy. The DI's "natural constituency" (their own term) are Christians. So you've got a think tank that's 98%+ conservative Christian (the other <2% being conservative theists of other flavors which share the same goals) with a documented explicitely Christian agenda, funded largely by conservative Christians, catering to a Christian constituency. It's safe to say they're Christian. FeloniousMonk 17:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
FeloniousMonk, I am well aware of the WP:NOR policy. That being said, I think your “proof” needs to be discussed. Your arguments seem to break down to these:
I know you are going to object to this, but I think it is important to consider - the Discovery Institute itself publicly describes itself as a “secular think tank.” Even more, the Institute expressly denies being a “Christina think tank.” [ [51]] I suspect many will object to the Discovery Institute being biased in this claim. However, I think it is standard for simple, factual claims, to cite and defer to a public organizations claims. We take Discovery’s word at who their Board members are, for example. (I will address later how the sources currently cited are not neutral third parties).
I find it simply astounding that Discovery’s reasonable, public, explanation of this fact will be entirely ignored by the wiki article. Here are some additional, verifiable facts about the Discovery Institute.
Is it reasonable to label an institution “Conservative Christian” in the first sentence when they employ, at a high level, the author of “Why The Jews Rejected Jesus”? I think not. Furthermore, Felon, you make up your numbers, which I’ll be charitable and presume were estimates (98% and 2%). Be honest, you have no idea how many % of the Discovery fellows or staff are “conservative Christians.” Furthermore, there is no evidence that the publicly identified non-Christian members are “token” members. There are in fact several publicly verifiable Christians at Discovery (Dembski, etc.). However, there is no verifiable document saying what precise percentage of Fellows, staff, or board members are any particular religion.
Your claim would categorize John Miller, chairman of the Board for four years, as “token.” What sort of “Christian organization” employs a “token Jew” as the chairman of its board? You make a claim that the non-conservative Christian members of Discovery are “conservative theists who share the same goals.” This is a fascinating admission. Conservative theists is not the same thing as Conservative Christians. Theist is a much broader category than Christian. Indeed, many who fit “theists” would vehemently object to being labeled “Christian” (which you seem to do). Jews and Moslems, to name just two, should not be wrongly labeled Christian just because they are theists.
Wikipedia is not obliged to follow POV name-calling as verifiable fact. I suspect an interested reader would be shocked to find out that what the Wiki article calls a “conservative Christian” organization engaged in many non-Christian causes (Cascadia, for example), was lead by a Jewish Chairman of the Board, and has a Senior Fellow who has written a book that is exceedingly non-Christian. Not to mention that the organization will readily employ any agnostic, atheist, Catholic, Jew, or person of whatever religious affiliation. Veritasjohn 14:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The argument made by User:FeloniousMonk relies largely on Intelligent Design being "explicitly Christian" and thus, the Discovery Institute which advances ID must also be "explicitly Christian." This argument proves too much. Even if Intelligent Design is religious (a contentious POV claim made by Kitzmiller, and disagreed with by many), this does not make the Discovery Institute "explicitly Christian"
Mustafa Aykol at The White Path is a devout Moslem supporting Intelligent Design. According to User:FeloniousMonks logical fallacy, anybody who supports intelligent design becomes "explicitly Christian." That would make Mr. Aykol a "Christian" – which he is clearly not. Even if you assume ID has the property of being "Christian" that property does not transfer to those who support intelligent design.
User:FeloniousMonks argument hangs the hat entirely on the intelligent design peg. By that logic anybody and everybody who supports intelligent design should be described as "explicitly Christian." That makes no sense. Jkaplan 20:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
No. Mr Christopher 01:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, Wade, you owe FeloniousMonk a thank you for all the personal intelligent design turoring he provides you on these talk pages at no cost. I am amazed at his scholarship, patience and willingness to educate you. Amazed. You should be one of the most well read and up to date individuals on any of these subjects just from the research he does on your behalf. Holy cow man you owe him a big thank you. Mr Christopher 20:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in my reply here.
FM, Thanks for pointing out that the first footnote does support the claim. There's so much ad-spam I could barely find the words of the article, much less the little page links under the Google AdWords.
So as far as the application of a label in a Wikipedia article, from what the admins here have stated it seems that how the DI is identified in media sources is more important than the full spectrum of what they do, who their membership/leadership consists of, and how the organization identifies themselves, even when there is conflict between these possible sources of establishing a label.
Very well. Media supersedes all. Seems very shallow to me and assumes that media sources always give reliable information and have a pragmatic omniscience. While I disagree with this methodology, if this is the way that Wikipedia has established its policy, then I suppose, "it is what it is." If anyone wishes to dispute a label applied by media sources, never mind what the group does, one must provide other media sources stating that the DI is indeed a secular organization. Anybody have any sources? -- Platonic Realm 17:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
First, to address the media argument briefly. I don't believe this has been established as Wiki policy in the status quo. [WP:V] does not say that a critic's claim about an organization must be taken as fact. It would be absurd for Wiki articles to blindly follow critic's claims about something as a verifiable fact. If that were the case, the Evolution page might as well say that Darwinism led to Nazi's - since some critics of Darwinism make this claim in the media.
I think we need to set a much higher standard, especially when dealing in issues of academia in which credible information and sources should be the point of origin. As we have seen, just over the past yr, the media has occasionally embellished information for airtime that later turned out to be false. First, we all remember the Jayson Blair incident, in which a journalist for one of the most respected papers, was proven to have fabricated evidence over a number of years. Second, during the Katrina recovery reports of "thousands dead" turned out to be false. In addition, in interviews with the media, both Mayor Nagin and Police Chief Compass reported "rapes of 'babies,' Nagin spoke of 'hundreds of armed gang members killing and raping people' inside the Dome. Other unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies 'we couldn't count.'" All of this information turned out to be false. We all remember these claims well because they were trumpeted in the media. However, as you may note, there was not a similar quick jump to correct this false information. Using media sources for information leaves much to be desired especially in an academic discussion when the Media claims are expressly denied by the source.
Second, briefly to the point of DI being a "Christian Think Tank." When you compare DI to many notable self-proclaimed think tanks, I think you see a real difference. Look for example at FRC(Family Research Council www.FRC.org), CWA (Concerned Women for America www.cwfa.org), The Christian Coalition (www.cc.org), Focus on the Family (www.family.org), and the Acton Institute (. When you look at the principles of these organizations you will see that they are all distinctly Christian in focus, mission, membership, and identity. Note, for instance the principles of FRC.
: * God exists and is sovereign over all creation. He created human beings in His image. Human life is, therefore, sacred and the right to life is the most fundamental of political rights. * Life and love are inextricably linked and find their natural expression in the institutions of marriage and the family. * Government has a duty to promote and protect marriage and family in law and public policy. * The American system of law and justice was founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic. * American democracy depends upon a vibrant civil society composed of families, churches, schools, and voluntary associations.
This does sound like a very Christian organization and well it should. The vision, mission, membership, and identity of the aforementioned Christian think tanks seem to be very different than that of DI. DI's Vision, mission, membership, and identity encompass many issues, realms, and members. While DI's membership may include Christians and Christians may have some interest in certain areas of DI's research this in no way makes it a 'Christian' organization. The Discovery Institute does not have any Christian statement of faith equivalent to what these actual Christian think thanks have. To say DI is Christian would mean that since I know some members of the ACLU who are Christians and know that the ACLU has partnered with Christian organizations (both verifiable facts), therefore, the ACLU a 'Christian organization.' This claim would be dishonest both intellectually and academically and such is the same of labeling DI a 'Christian' think tank. Cabanaman 21:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
First, let us clarify, none of the Wiki editors discussion this issue, are representing their own reasoning and judgment on this particular issue. Felinious at one point seemed to imply that DI has “come here and insist that they (Discovery Institute) are not a Christian organization.” It is not the DI insisting that they are not, it is a good number of Wiki editors who fail to see how DI can be fairly described as a Christian think thank, as if they are one and the same with Family Research Council and the like.
Second, the Jewish members of Discovery should not be denegraded with slurs of “token” status. In two places, Mr. Christopher makes this claim:
The verifiable fact that John Miller was chairman of the Board for Discovery for many years does not seem to support a “token” claim. Furthermore, the tone of these comments appear to me to be an insult to the several public non-Christian members. This “token” argument looks a lot like a personal insult to the non-Christian members. David Klinghoffer, who wrote Why the Jews Rejected Jesus is not just some “token” member, but rather a well publicized Jewish columnist. What is more problematic about this point, having several high profile Jewish members should give everyone pause before declaring that DI is “conservative Christian.” I’m sure both John Miller and David Klinghoffer would object to be described as part of a “Christian” agenda and organization.
Third, “Christian” and “theists” are not the same thing. In many places, the argument advanced was that “theists” have the same agenda as the Christians, so this whole discussion is moot. However, accuracy is important with religious terms. Christians are theists, as are Moslems and Jews. That does BOLDnotBOLD make Jews or Moslems Christians. It is simply confounding that the article, or arguments in discussion, would imply that Moslems and Jews can be categorized as “Christians” simply because they support a similar cause.
The problem with these statements can be found in another comment from FeliniousMonk: “What the DI does and says goes a lot further to determining what the DI is than what flavor of theist its members are.”FeloniousMonk 22:43, 27 October 2006 If that claim is true, then the Christian, personal religious “flavor” of “its members” should not justify labeling DI as “Christian.” I agree with FeliniousMonk on this point. Look – if Klinghoff’ers book BOLDWhy the Jews Rejected JesusBOLD does not make DI an anti-Christian Jewish think tank, then Dembski’s believes about God and the designer does not make DI Christian. If Well’s Moonie status does not make DI a “Moonie think tank” then Philip Johnson’s personal views and books does not make Discovery a Christian think tank. However, later, Felinious seems to change his position on the status of fellows: “Um, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Discovery Institute comprises its fellows, and so musings of its fellows on the topic is not only relevant, but necessary in determining what Discovery Institute fellows believe.” FeloniousMonk 18:43, 27 October 2006. This looks a lot like the Christian believes of the fellows matters, but the Jewish, Moonie or Agnostic views of fellows do not matter. That is not neutral.
Furtermore, there was never any analysis of how, if intelligent design is such a blatenly Christian cause, there can be devout Moslems, such as “Mustafa Aykol at The White Path is a devout Moslem supporting Intelligent Design” Jkaplan 20:58, 27 October 2006, who are not also wrongly labeled as “Christian” for supporting intelligent design.
Fourth, the Wedge Document was repeatedly touted as Discovery’s “Manifesto.” While the Wedge Document does show that many Christians have reason to support intelligent design, the fact remians that the Wedge Document was a fund raising letter, and at most, relevant to what the CS(r)C believes. The document does not address the Discovery Board, or any programs other than CSC. Remember, CSC came later, first came social programs, foreign policy, Cascadia, and the like. None of these programs are implicated, even if we take Wedge = Christian as gospel.
Fifth, Discovery lacks many common (necessary?) attributes of Christian think tanks. This argument has not been addressed by either the discussion of Christian members, or the ID/Wedge issue. There is no religious test or even standard for members. Atheists, agnostics, jews, anybody is welcome. They are welcome, because unlike expressly Christian organizations (Focus on the Family, for example) the organization does not consider itself Christian. They have no statement of faith for the organization. Even presuming the Wedge is some sort of proxy for that, it would only work for CS(r)C, not the whole Institute. Furthermore, the high-profile non-Christian members belie the Christian label for the whole institute. There is no David Klinghoffer working for the Acton Institute, or the Family Research Council – since those organizations actually have religious standards and mandatory beliefs.
While I think all these points are important to note in the discussion, it does appear at this time that many news organizations and published sources (some biased) call Discovery a “Christian think tank.” That label, in all the sources I have looked up, has no justification – it is simply a label given to Discovery. None of the cited sources adaquately addresses the facts highlighted in this discussion. However, Wiki seems to be off track with standards, so the labels given (without supporting reason) trump the verifiable facts about the organization. I hope, and suspect, the Wiki article will continue to point out that Discovery Itself does not consider the institute to be a “Christian think tank.” Veritasjohn 17:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
FM, I, for myself, am not arguing that, at times, "the DI does not pursue Christian agenda or promote a Christian POV." Some of the members do. The fact remains that the organization is far more than simply "Christian." I am arguing that their secular programs precede and go far beyond their claimed "Christian agenda." Your argument, FM, that the DI is "Christian" because of their involvement with ID and their fellows, is belied by the fact that there is alot more to the DI than ID, the Wedge doc, and what some of their member do sometimes. The other activity I am speaking of here includes:
Activities -
Hierarchical -
Leadership -
The claim that the DI does not pursue Christian agenda or promote a Christian POV is belied by the DI's own programs [71] and manifesto. [72] -FM
So one program, and one document, with media sources, justifies an all-encompassing adjective in the first sentence of an encyclopedia article?
This is my point: The Discovery Institute does much more than "Christian" activity. In order for this article to be accurate, it should report something besides, "The Discovery Institute is a conservative Christian think tank structured as a non-profit educational foundation, founded in 1990 and based in Seattle, Washington, USA" in its first sentence.
My comment here is that sticking an adjective in an article and citing media sources does not mean the adjective is accurate, especially if the organization is involved in many more projects that have nothing to do with their efforts to promote ID, or their "Christian" activity.
Equivocation will not suffice for an accurate presentation of what the Discovery Institute actually is and does. If what the organization actually is, does, and says is irrelevant to the article because it is "original research" according to Wikipedia standards, then so be it. But the facts remain that there is much more to the DI than merely a "Christian agenda," which is basically what the first sentence says to anyone reading between the lines.
I will concede that most of the media attention they get is through the intelligent design issue. It seems that many agree with the inaccurate label for this very reason (including the continual assertions of manifestos by Mr Christopher and FM). This does not change the fact that there is a lot more to this organization than "Christian" activity, the fact remains that most of what they do is political, technological, and economic, not religious or “Christian.”
"...come here and insist that they..." -FM
I think here you're insinuating that individuals discussing this topic, that disagree with you, are employed by the DI or IDEA. I now inform you that in my case you are sadly mistaken. I would also observe that this is a shallow attempt by you to discredit a legitimate point by making assertions with no evidence whatsoever. JoshuaZ and FM, disparaging me, or anyone else, about a single purpose account doesn't make it so.
I happen to disagree with the ID community on many points. For example, I find intolerable those who insist that ID should be taught in the public science classroom. I think they need peer-reviewed work and more support from the scientific community at large.
I also find it intolerable that JoshuaZ and FM would disparage users with baseless assertions. I am a new Wikipedia user who peruses and occasionally makes corrections and suggestions when I think they are warranted. [73] This article does not accurately reflect what the DI is, and so I am making comments that I think are warranted on this point. I am not employed by the DI nor by IDEA. If I am breaking any rules by commenting on a point of accuracy, please let me know and I will immediately desist.
Otherwise, I will continue making comments and suggestions that I think are important for this article, and others, to be accurate and worth reading for the visitors here.
If media sources are trump, and referencing the DI website in the first sentence is original research, then this DI article is at Wikipedia standards, and I have no arguments worth discussing. I will cease this discussion if that is the case; I certainly have better things to do than argue with Wikipedia how it should run itself.
But if that is not the case, I think there should be efforts to make this article more accurate regarding this first sentence. -- Platonic Realm 21:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I found this part of the controversy section interesting. "At the foundation of most criticism of the Discovery Institute is the charge that the institute and its Center for Science and Culture intentionally misrepresent or omit many important facts in promoting their agenda." Hmm, does the omission of the fact that this allegedly "conservative Christian think tank" had a Jewish chairman of the board constitute an example? This statement in the Wikipedia article strikes me as a tad tu quoque. -- Wade A. Tisthammer 16:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Alright, that looks really good. Thanks for adding the cite FM. Nice superscript letters. I really like discussing contributions on this page: we discuss changes and I don't have to do any of the fancy editing work. :-) -- Platonic Realm 00:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The article states
Its areas of interest include intelligent design, public school education...
Does anyone have any evidence of the DI doing anything for public school education, unrelated to undermining science standards (which comes under the intelligent design umbrella). Unless we can validate they have any active program(s) that is dedicated to public school education and is not intelligent design related we should remove this. I'll give it a day or so before removing it in case someone knows something about the DI having a legitimate "public school education" component that I am obviously unaware of. Mr Christopher 16:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted them: They seem appropriate for a biography, but I can't at all see how they deal with the Discovery Institute. Correct me if I'm wrong? Adam Cuerden talk 16:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
That's also true of the Chapman bio as well, though: That whole section needs citing up. There's a good list of possible cites at George Gilder, luckily. (However, we really should mention the anti-feminist content of the books (presuming his main article is accurate) if we mention them.) However, it's not a bad start. Adam Cuerden talk 12:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
This article touches on the wedge document/strategy but obviously the real meat of that subject is covered in the wedge article. Since that document represents the origins of a significant amount of criticism, would it be helpful to elaborate on it in this article (without going overboard of course)? I think we should consider at least outlining the two goals:
We now have:
The Wedge document, a widely circulated 1998 internal memo laid out Discovery's original, ambitious plan to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism," "thereby divorcing science from its purely observational and naturalistic methodology and reversing the deleterious effects of evolution on Western culture." Meyer says that the Wedge document "was stolen from our offices and placed on the Web without permission."[50] The central item of this agenda - establishing intelligent design as legitimate science through conducting actual scientific research - has not been achieved.[51]
I propose we do the following:
The Wedge document, a widely circulated 1998 internal memo laid out Discovery's original, ambitious plan to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism," "thereby divorcing science from its purely observational and naturalistic methodology and reversing the deleterious effects of evolution on Western culture." The two primary goals outlined in the Wedge document are:
*To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies. *To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.
Meyer says that the Wedge document "was stolen from our offices and placed on the Web without permission."[50] The central item of this agenda - establishing intelligent design as legitimate science through conducting actual scientific research - has not been achieved.[51]
My formatting stinks but I think you can see where I'm going with this. I think capturing the goals here would help the reader understand what some of the fuss is about as well as put some of the controversy in perspective. It also puts the DI's perspective in perspective so to speak. Any thoughts? Mr Christopher 18:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Governing Goals
To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies. To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
Five Year Goals
To see intelligent design theory as an accepted alternative in the sciences and scientific research being done from the perspective of design theory. To see the beginning of the influence of design theory in spheres other than natural science. To see major new debates in education, life issues, legal and personal responsibility pushed to the front of the national agenda.
Twenty Year Goals
To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science. To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts. To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.
But as far as the article does, I think the two governing goals will do nicely. Mr Christopher 00:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the lead, by sidestepping all the controversy until the last sentence, may be NPOV, but I'm not sure. Does anyone else think so, or is my vague dislike better off suppressed? Adam Cuerden talk 18:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Right. I'm probably not going to have time to do it very quickly, but I'll do what I can. Adam Cuerden talk 18:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the wiki link inserted for Nina Shapiro. The writer does not appear to be a candidate for a wiki biography, and thus I do not think a red link to no page is appropriate. Veritasjohn 15:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the DI has now added global warming skepticism to their list of causes: [81]. JoshuaZ 02:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
More DI "legal" antics Mr Christopher 20:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's try again... Study Shows Discovery Institute Copied Book For Law Review Article here is the conclusion:
Professor Irons concluded his study with these comments: "It seems to me the height of hypocrisy for the Discovery Institute to accuse Judge Jones of copying 90 percent of one section of his opinion (just 16 percent of its total length) from the proposed findings of fact by the plaintiff's lawyers, when the DI itself tried to palm off as 'original' work a law review article that was copied 95 percent from the authors' own book. Concealing this fact from the law review editors, until I discovered and documented this effort, seriously undercuts the credibility of the DI on this or any other issue."
According to that article , Irons isn't some clown pretending to be a "legal scholar", he is a "Harvard Law School graduate and member of the United States Supreme Court bar, is a noted authority on First Amendment law and has published more than a dozen books on constitutional litigation, as well as numerous articles in the Harvard Law Review and other prestigious journals." Should this latest DI controversy be mentioned in the article. Does it seem noteworthy to others? Under the circumtstances it seems highly relevant to me. Mr Christopher 20:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been re-acquainting myself with the DI page after a little Wiki break. Though people who follow the Discovery Institute and intelligent design may know what "study" refers to, the title is very ambigous. I suggest that some more descriptive name be used. I'm not commenting on the merits or content of the section at this point, just suggesting a more usable title for Wiki readers. Especially in the TOC at the top of the DI page, I don't think "study" is descriptive enough. Cheers! Veritasjohn 17:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I have been re-reading the "study" section and have a few problems with the current version. First, the final sentence about the counter-study seems to be confusing, and not adaquately sourced.
A subsequent study performed by Wesley Elsberry, author of a text comparison program approved for use and considered authoritative in Federal court, on the section of the plaintiffs proposed findings of fact regarding whether ID is science with the section of the ruling on the same subject indicated that Judge Jones actually only incorporated 35% of the findings of fact and conclusions of law that the plaintiffs proposed that he incorporate, not the 90.9% the Discovery Institute claimed.[64][65]
I have two problems:
I think the sentence should be modified in some way to fix these problems. Veritasjohn 06:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism". it does not say the above. where is the cite for the above?
and why is it evil to be against "scientific materialism"???
raspor 01:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
When you quote someone You should always add a citation when quoting published material, and the citation should be placed directly after the quotation, which should be enclosed within double quotation marks — "like this" — or single quotation marks if it's a quote-within-a-quote — "and here is such a 'quotation' as an example." For long quotes, you may wish to use Template:Quotation. (an unsigned comment by Raspor)
Raspor is correct (in a sense) that without naturalism and evolution we wouldn't have drugs - or rather, we would have the sort of drygs you can buy on infomercials. If we cannot rule out the supernatural, we can never demonstrate the one drug works better than the other. Consequently, the FDA (and similar bodies in other countries) couldn't approve any mor drugs. If we can't rule out the supernatural we can't say that it was penicillin that killed the bacteria and not a supernatural event. Without common descent we have no grounds for animal testing, since inferences are only valid on the basis of the phylogenetic relationships between species. Without the assumption that the phylogeny is basically correct, animal testing is simply animal cruelty. Guettarda 14:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
No I said it. Raspor disagreed.-- Filll 15:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
""If we cannot rule out the supernatural, we can never demonstrate the one drug works better than the other"" oh bull! of course you can test regardless of whether one believes in the supernatural or not. didnt you ever hear of a double blind study? are you guys aware of how this testing works at all? where do you get this stuff??? raspor 15:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
You really do not know much about science. And I am a scientists because I have 2 undergraduate degrees and 4 graduate degrees in science, and have made my living being paid to do science for years. So I think I know what a scientist is. You are clueless. If I have the supernatural that can intervene mysteriously at any time and any place and ruin the results then I can know nothing. Now I can test for the effect of prayer. We have done so several times, in controlled studies, and we have found NO effect of prayer. Prayer itself might change brain chemistry so I will not say prayer is worthless. But expecting a supernatural response to prayer is more pseudoscience than science at least as far as we can tell.-- Filll 17:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
We have tried to measure supernatural things like the effect of prayer but failed to find any effects in most studies. So you are incorrect. You just will reject whatever I say, that is clear. From your writing style, I would doubt strongly that you are a Nobel Prize holder unless you are not a native English speaker.-- Filll 17:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Though first a reminder: this page is for discussing improvements to the article, not for telling each other ghost stories. Anyway, if raspor's correct about the "citation" from the wedge document, that's a valuable point and the statement should be revised to match what the document actually says. Thanks for picking that up, raspor. .. dave souza, talk 18:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Contrary to appearances, I am not taunting. I am trying to engage raspor in productive discussions. I have done the same with adlac and others who hold different views than mine. Sometimes useful information emerges. I am not so sure this is possible in raspor's case.-- Filll 18:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I found it on a parody of Barbara Forrest on the DI site:
From a book by Barbara Forrest:
Other people might have picked up on Forrest's wording. It might be in other DI materials: I am not sure.-- Filll 19:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Bobjob:A bobjob is a job well done... bobjob-- Filll 19:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to remember to
-- Filll 20:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
(reduce indent) Please see WP:V, specifically, The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Striving for "Truth" is specifically against Wikipedia policy, because the truth is inherently a matter of personal opinion. Your personal opinion is valid, as your personal opinion, but only the verifiably accurate is desired on Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua ?!? 21:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
(reduce) In that case, WP:NPOV#Undue weight kicks in. Apply the three pillars of NPOV, NOR, and V, and you can't go wrong. KillerChihuahua ?!? 11:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
This section looks like it could use some more sub-headers or something that logically organizes the flow of information a little better. Opinions? Mr Christopher 22:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
for clarity and discussion, the controversy section (whtout a sub header like the Jones Study) is primarily comprised of these areas:
I'm thinking we'd do our readers a favor if we somehow organized these subjects within the Controversy section. I'm not sure how best to do that yet. Mr Christopher 22:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
See the quote by the DI about itself at the end of this article [http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54176] JoshuaZ 16:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is this page in Category:Discovery Institute fellows and advisors? The discovery institute is not fellow or advisor in itself. Should perhaps a Category:Discovery Institute be created to go between Category:Intelligent design and Category:Discovery Institute fellows and advisors.-- ZayZayEM 03:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I recommend that the DI page be tagged POV until substantative corrections are made. Users like User talk:Feloniousmonk are apparently committed to keeping the page POV, reverting edits on a whim. Staking out a page for any changes, and then reverting them with for no reason is entirely inappropriate. Furthermore, much of the entry contains information that is biased, untrue, and simply out-dated. I propose allowing factual corrections directly on the page, with discussion here only when someone has a sustainable objection. Reverting edits because you fear allowing the Institute to speak for itself is a clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Truthologist 18:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the back up for the claims about political affiliation, and supporting George Bush?
I disagree, Vorpal. From what I know of them, the group seems to me pretty plainly on the "red" end of the political spectrum. Mr. Billion 04:10, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, no. I mean "red" in terms of the "red state/blue state divide." That is, the group is fairly obviously rather conservative. Mr. Billion 17:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to Wikify this article by importing material from Discovery Institute directly and by removing built-in external links which belong at the bottom of the page. After reading the Discovery Institue's web pages (several) it was obvious that the original article certainly did not present a true account of the organization. A lot more needs to be added but what it does not need is a fusion of topics related to religion and evolution that are not even found on the Institute web site under its main name. An overview should be presented here and if necessary, each of the several branches of the Institute could have their own articles if there is enough material to support them. I knew nothing about this organisation before and I only know a little more now after reading their material and trying to rewrite this article. While it is now clearer than it was, it is by no means perfect. However, I would caution against trying to use it as a means to "preach" or push a POV either for or against its stated aims. The big problem I see with the organisation is that it is trying to be a sort of Christian government in exile which if it had its way, would be the only way. Since I am not a Christian (was) I am certainly not a supporter, but this does not mean that I do not believe in fair reporting and writing. This is sort of "I may not agree with your point of view but I will defend your right to have one". I have thus created a prototype article to link to this one in order to avoid the mess previously created by another "controversial" article. MPLX/MH 06:00, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought that I could clear up the mess on "Teaching the Controversy" by simply linking to a new article for Center for Science and Culture ... only to discover that it already exists! Clearly this is a tangled web and not just one article that became bogged down. I suggest that the editors who created all of this rethink what it is that they are trying to present and do some major revisions of all of the related sites. They don't do the Discovery Institute justice and they have caused at least one site to turn into a blog that has become blocked. I don't think that anyone other than the original editors know that this is an interrelated tangled web of many sites. Not that there is anything wrong with having more than one article, but at least one of them should be well written and right now none of them are (including the one I worked on!) MPLX/MH 06:14, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- VorpalBlade 22:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From Genesis To Dominion Fat-Cat Theocrat Funds Creationism Crusade by Steve Benen Americans United for Separation of Church and State from: Church & State, July/August 2000
Anti-evolution crusader Phillip Johnson, dedicated his 1997 book, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, to "Roberta and Howard, who understood 'the wedge' because they love the Truth."
The mysterious reference is apparently a note of thanks to Howard F. Ahmanson Jr. and his wife Roberta, a wealthy and secretive Orange County, Calif., couple who have generously funded the anti-evolution movement and other right-wing causes that advance their fundamentalist Christian outlook.
Howard Ahmanson, however, is no ordinary fat-cat. The savings and loan heir has maintained a long-time relationship with Christian Reconstructionism, an extreme faction of the Religious Right that seeks to replace American democracy with a harsh fundamentalist theocracy.
Reconstructionists believe conservative Christians should take "dominion" over American society. Under their version of "biblical law," the death penalty would be required for over a dozen categories of offenders, including adulterers, homosexuals, witches, incorrigible children and those who spread "false" religions. They regard the teaching of evolution as part of a "war against Genesis."
Ahmanson served for over two decades on the board of directors of the Chalcedon Foundation, Rousas J. Rushdoony's Reconstructionist think tank that serves as the intellectual center of the movement. Ahmanson has also generously supported the Foundation's work.
As for Ahmanson's interests in opposing evolution, his relationship with leaders such as Johnson raises a series of questions about how the movement to "defeat" evolution is paid for and what the larger agenda might be.
There is little doubt that the Ahmansons have the resources to help finance anti-evolution efforts. The family's wealth grew exponentially during the 1950s and '60s when Howard Ahmanson Sr, made billions in the savings and loan industry. After his death, his estate was divided between his son Howard F. Ahmanson and the Ahmanson Foundation, which had $663 million in assets at the end of 1996. (H.F. Ahmanson & Co., the parent company of Home Savings of America, had over $47 billion in assets in 1997.)
With a vast fortune in hand, the Ahmansons are playing an active role in ensuring the anti-evolution movement's success.
According to Reason magazine, promotional materials from the Seattle-based Discovery Institute acknowledge that the Ahmanson family donated $1.5 million to the Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture for a research and publicity program to "unseat not just Darwinism but also Darwinism's cultural legacy." In fact, the August 1999 issue of the Discovery Institute's Journal recognizes an Ahmanson outfit for providing the Center's start-up funds.
With such high-powered assistance, the Center has quickly become a leading anti-evolution organization. The center's senior fellows include some of the highest profile advocates of "Intelligent Design" creationism, including David Berlinski, William Dembski and Michael Behe. Johnson himself is listed among the center's two official advisors.
Additionally, Roberta Green Ahmanson provided the funding for Dembski to appear at her alma mater, Calvin College, a conservative Christian school in Michigan, to promote his approach to attacking evolution. Although he claims to be interested only in the scientific "evidence" against evolution, Dembski's appearance was listed as part of the college's "Seminars in Christian Scholarship."
Funding from the Ahmansons is not always obvious. For example, the Fieldstead Institute is an extension of the Ahmanson empire, which frequently provides financial support for creationist causes. Dembski's appearance at Calvin was sponsored by a group called Fieldstead and Company. (Both appear to derive their name from Howard's middle name, Fieldstead.)
Ahmanson has also taken an interest in providing money for other political causes, including support for voucher subsidies for religious schools and opposition to gay rights and pornography. In the January/February 1997 issue of Religion & Liberty, published by the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty, he argued that the Bible opposes minimum wage laws.
Ahmanson's opposition to evolution remains part of his larger agenda of establishing a fundamentalist "Christian nation." In the coming years, as different groups and personalities step into the anti-evolution fray, Ahmanson's role bears watching.
apprently- in that beastly sentence which I changed once, reverted then changed back, what is being said is that
critics are unwilling to recognize that an organization (in this case, discovery institute) can have certain goals but adopt an educational policy that does not require said goals be required of schools. can you require a goal of a school?? I'm gonna leave it how it is, now with my one small change intact. I think "include" works better than that "including" that was there, which baffled me. I am uncertain about a few sentences in the neighborhood of that paragraph. The original writer should be found, I think. Is the writer saying that evolutionists challenges to the disc.inst. are ad hominem, straw man arguments?? If so, it should be stated more clearly. I'll be checking back.
someone who wants to clarify what proponents assert PLEASE jump in and make that sentence into 2 or three tolerable sentences. For the love of the potential for God-like quality in us all...
thanks, Kzzl
When I wrote this article some months ago I was careful to include the other projects of the DI, I think one was to do with bioethics (don't murder the embryos!) and the importance of the views of the, er, great amateur theologian C.S. Lewis to public life in a country with strict separation of church and state. Right now it's just turned into a messy summary of ID, for which the Center for Science and Culture article was supposed to be. And those elements stating the other interests have mysteriously vanished! Another hint: Howard Abrahamason Jr (spelling?) Dunc| ☺ 16:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The article reads:
It recently created its own Web site to ensure an individual identity and distance itself from the institute's controversial role in promoting intelligent design.
I don't doubt this is true but without some sort of supporting data/evidence this reads very POV/biased. It sounds like Wiki is either speculating on the DI's motives or simply asserting what those motives are. How do we know Cascadia is trying to "distance" itself from the institute's IDC efforts? How do we know this isn't simply their attempt to better define what Cascadia is about and better focue their Cascadia efforts? Again, I think this entry either neeeds some supporting evidence or it should be rewritten without what appears to be a biased slant/speculation. Mr Christopher 17:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
[Cut spam from 72.67.20.74.] -- Mr. Billion 16:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
If it's spam, it doesn't belong here. I've removed it. -- Mr. Billion 16:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
It's true that they haven't proven Intelligent Design through science, and it's true that they'll never do so because it's just another form of creationism. But the statement "The central item of this agenda - proving intelligent design by conducting actual scientific research - has clearly not been achieved" isn't NPOV. An ID proponent would object that ID hasn't yet been proven. At a minimum, the phrasing needs to be tweaked. -- Mr. Billion 01:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I was reading this article today and was struck at how biased it seems against the DI. First of all, the biggest section is the Criticisms section. Second, of the three footnotes, only the last can arguably be considered "unbiased." Finally, the last footnote is used to support the statement, The central item of this agenda - establishing intelligent design as legitmate science through conducting actual scientific research - has not been achieved. Except, that the last foot note is a link to the Dover school district court case decision. So now our concept of whether or not something is considered legitimate science is based on how the courts rule on cases relating to it? That is, to be kind, absurd. I am thinking that this article probably needs to be tagged as POV until it balances out. El Cubano 02:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your arguments are flawed.
Hi, I am doing research on the Discovery Institute and ran across a few spelling errors in the current Wiki article. I hope nobody has a problem, but just in case you are wondering, here is what I fixed; (1) History section, “institute’s” had an extra “s”; (2) Criticism section, “offices” did not have an “i” and “legitimate” was also missing an “i"; (3) Funding section, “totaling” had an extra “l”, “institute’s” had an extra “s”, and “News asked” was missing a space. Veritasjohn 22:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I’ve noticed what appears to be a mistake in the History section. The third paragraph starts out with this sentence:
This leaves the impression that Champan founded “a think tank opposed to materialism” with Stephen Meyer in 1993. However, as the Wiki article, and all linked sources agree, the Discovery Institute was founded in 1990, not 1993. That’s my first problem.
Second, the sentence claims that Champan “formed a plan for a think tank opposed to materialism.” I’ve searched far and wide on the internet, and find no evidence anywhere that Chapman formed the Discovery Institute to oppose materialism. There is no verification for this claim.
Third, the paragraph leaves the reader very confused about when Discovery started doing intelligent design work, and when Stephen Meyer entered the picture. It was not 1993. The Judy Wilgoren NYT article explains that Chapman first learned about Meyer in 1993, and then met him a year later.
Finally, as best I can tell, the CSC was not founded until 1996, with no money being promised until 1995 (same NYT article). Thus, the Wiki history is just in error, there was no founding with Meyer in 1993. I will propose a revision soon, once I do a bit more research. Veritasjohn 16:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's the DI's basic timeline, with the meetings that lead up to the formation of the CRSC:
FeloniousMonk 20:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I’ve re-written the unclear third paragraph in the history section, to better reflect the verifiable chronology for the founding of the CSC (first CRSC). My rewrite expanded the first sentence by making it three sentences. It has these advantages: 1) makes clear how Bruce Chapman came in contact with Meyer – the WSJ op-ed 2) Makes clear the date of their first meeting was 1995, not 1993. The NYT source makes this clear. 3) Adds information about the financing, which came in the summer of 1995 NYT source again makes this clear. 4) The new third/fourth paragraph of the History section make more logical sense now. Gives the chronology of the founding, then has the description of the CSC’s role in the intelligent design movement. 5) Cuts unclear and unnecessary information from the first version. The old version had two paragraphs about the founding of the CSC, but it was very unclear how everything developed. Veritasjohn 23:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
"Founded in 1990 as a branch of the Hudson Institute, based in Indianapolis, the institute was named for the H.M.S. Discovery, which explored Puget Sound in 1792. Mr. Chapman, a co-author of a 1966 critique of Barry M. Goldwater's anti-civil-rights campaign, "The Party That Lost Its Head," had been a liberal Republican on the Seattle City Council and candidate for governor, but moved to the right in the Reagan administration, where he served as director of the Census Bureau and worked for Edwin Meese III.
In late 1993, Mr. Chapman clipped an essay in The Wall Street Journal by Dr. Meyer, who was teaching at a Christian college in Spokane, Wash., concerning a biologist yanked from a lecture hall for discussing intelligent design. About a year later, over dinner at the Sorrento Hotel here, Dr. Meyer and George Gilder, Mr. Chapman's long-ago Harvard roommate and his writing partner, discovered parallel theories of mind over materialism in their separate studies of biology and economics. "Bruce kind of perked up and said, 'This is what makes a think tank,' " Dr. Meyer recalled. "There was kind of an 'Aha!' moment in the conversation, there was a common metaphysic in these two ideas." That summer of 1995, Mr. Chapman and Dr. Meyer had dinner with a representative of the Ahmansons, the banking billionaires from Orange County, Calif., who had previously given a small grant to the institute and underwritten an early conclave of intelligent design scholars. Dr. Meyer, who had grown friendly enough with the Ahmansons to tutor their young son in science, recalled being asked, "What could you do if you had some financial backing?" So in 1996, with the promise of $750,000 over three years from the Ahmansons and a smaller grant from the MacLellan Foundation, which supports organizations "committed to furthering the Kingdom of Christ," according to its Web site, the institute's Center for Science and Culture was born.
"Bruce is a contrarian, and this was a contrarian idea," said Edward J. Larson, the historian and author of a Pulitzer Prize-winning book on the Scopes Monkey Trial, who was an early fellow at the institute, but left in part because of its drift to the right. "The institute was living hand-to-mouth. Here was an academic, credible activity that involved funders. It interested conservatives. It brought in money."
FeloniousMonk - Perhaps my first re-write can be modified. The problem is, the current Wiki still has serious problems:
"In 1993, having formed a plan for a think tank opposed to materialism with Stephen C. Meyer and George Gilder (Chapman's former Harvard roommate and his writing partner), Chapman secured seed money in the form of a grant from Howard Ahmanson, Jr. and $450,000 from the MacLellan Foundation. [2] These underwrote the earliest nucleus of intelligent design authors who titled themselves "The Wedge" [3]. Meyer had previously tutored Ahmanson's son in science and Meyer recalls being asked by Ahmanson "What could you do if you had some financial backing?"
Veritasjohn 14:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I expanded the Cascadia section of the page with more background and explanation of what the center does. The new version should provide more encyclopedia type information about Cascadia.
I did not remove existing material on Cascadia, but merely added the new information. Veritasjohn 22:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The DI recently hired the same PR firm that promoted the former Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the Contract With America, Creative Response Concepts. Also, given CRC's history of using blogs and other online sources, we will to guard against their using this article as another channel to promote their employer's views. FeloniousMonk 02:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone cares, this article is now mentioned in Portal:Creationism's did you know section. JoshuaZ 03:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I added a subsection for the Technology and Democracy cause at DI. It was not previously mentioned in the Wiki, despite being a cause from the founding to the present (involving George Gilder). Veritasjohn 17:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I took out the "media complaints division" viewpoint. Even if it were cited, it would not be appropriate in the links section. No other link is editorialized in a similar fashion. Links should just have a fair description, not a critical jab. Saint-George 19:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed two lings which do not seem to belong in the External Links section. They were both replaced, several times. In the discussion, I will now defend why at least the first link should be removed. The pandasthumb blog post titled “Correct This!” is badly out of date. It was written September 5th, 2005. I checked the history, an IP address added the link to the DI Wiki on 26 September 2005
[25] It may well have been linkspam added by the pandasthumb author of the blog post (though we cannot know).
This link should now be removed. It is more than a year old. Much of the blog post is simply out of date. Here are just a few of the badly outdated parts:
Furthermore, this blog post is just that – a blog post. There are hundreds of blog posts back and forth between Discovery’s ENV and Pandasthumb. There is no reason to include this blog post as opposed to hundreds of other blog posts. The actual content of the blog post criticizes Michael Behe’s blurb supporting a book, which was plugged briefly on ENV. This is merely an outdated blog-war criticism of Michael Behe, not interesting information about the Discovery Institute (this Wiki page’s topic). Veritasjohn 16:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted Truthologist ( talk · contribs)'s undiscussed changes to the article a second time now. His edits white washed ID's status within the DI by downplaying them and deleting a sourced passage of DI co-founder Gilder on the prominence of ID at the institute. Truthologist's changes also downplayed the conservative sources of funding of the DI while boosting the prominence of that of the Gates Foundation, which only funds work on transportation issues. Since sort of spinning and downplaying of the facts is not going to work when there are so many sources available. Considering the subject of this article has declared war on Wikipedia, [26] if there are specific things in the article that are inaccurate and need to be changed, they need to be discussed here first. FeloniousMonk 19:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It is quickly becoming apparent why "Felon" is in the handle "Feloniousmonk". This user will not allow any changes to this article, regardless of sourced information, or the inaccurate nature of some content (See e.g. [27].) Furthermore, there is no "Whitewashing" taking place--and no information about "Gilder" was removed in that edit. If this rampant and biased behavior continues, I recommend this matter be referred to Wikipedia for appropriate arbitration.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.139.168 ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 15 October 2006
Seeking discussion on adding a link to article: " Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade ."
Is there any objection to placing the article in external links?
I am removing strongly POV material from entry here, specifically this sentence:
It seeks to portray evolution as a "theory in crisis" and leave the scientific community looking closed-minded, opening the public school science curriculum to creation-based alternatives to evolution such as intelligent design, and thereby undermining "scientific materialism."
What is the source for this? Sounds like pure editorializing (or perhaps paraphrasing unsourced material) to me. Thoughts? Truthologist 03:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The above were removed in this edit by Jim62sch citing this reason: "Wikipedia's purpose is not to be an outlet for DI sponsored events -- that [sic] what DI has its own web site for." I disagree, and believe the more information about the Institute and its program and events in this entry, the better. Please provide other justification for such a major deletion, and cite appropriate established WP if applicable. Truthologist 17:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not: "Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia."
Truthologist added an excessive number of links to DI material: [29] He then restored it when Jimsch62 rejected it as link spam: [30] 216.163.84.151 ( talk · contribs) restored the links in the form of links to archives/search results: [31] User:216.163.84.151's IP just happens to be that of the Discovery Institute. Having the DI restore Truthologist's questionable edits calls into question whether there are editors here working on the Discovery Institute's behalf or that its PR firm, Creative Response Concepts. WP:AUTO provides for preventing editors from editing articles in which they are directly involved, particularly when done in a biased manner, as have been seen here. To avoid future conflict and disputes, anyone editing here who is an involved party with the DI should limit themselves to participating on this article's talk page and refrain from editing the article directly. FeloniousMonk 23:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Although a source has been provided to the claim that it is a conservative Christian think tank, there are a few problems. One, there are no cited sources to the Discovery Institute itself that say it is a conservative Christian think tank. It has been my experience in controversial matters that hearsay is not always reliable. Second, if we go straight to the horse's mouth and see what the Discovery Institute says [32], we see,
For specific examples, note that David Klinghoffer is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute [33] and is an Orthodox Jew [34]--not a conservative Christian. Another example, David Berlinksi is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute (in the CSC branch) [35] and is an agnostic [36] [37]. -- Wade A. Tisthammer 14:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm usure about the proposal by Wade. My opinion is that such indecisiveness might be more appropriate in the body of the article. The introduction should be plain and simple facts, not a contentious clump of argumentation. If the label "Christian" does not fit and is not substantiated, just go with what is well-established on the facts. -- Platonic Realm 19:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The DI in promoting ID is promoting an explicitely Christian goal: "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." [47] This fact was recognized in the Dover ruling which said "ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science" [48] ... "ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." [49] And as the article details and is supported by multiple sources the vast majority of the DI's funding comes wealthy conservative Christians and explicitely Christian organizations. DI members are overwhelmingly Christian, the few exceptions are touted by the DI as part of their "Big Tent" strategy. The DI's "natural constituency" (their own term) are Christians. So you've got a think tank that's 98%+ conservative Christian (the other <2% being conservative theists of other flavors which share the same goals) with a documented explicitely Christian agenda, funded largely by conservative Christians, catering to a Christian constituency. It's safe to say they're Christian. FeloniousMonk 17:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
FeloniousMonk, I am well aware of the WP:NOR policy. That being said, I think your “proof” needs to be discussed. Your arguments seem to break down to these:
I know you are going to object to this, but I think it is important to consider - the Discovery Institute itself publicly describes itself as a “secular think tank.” Even more, the Institute expressly denies being a “Christina think tank.” [ [51]] I suspect many will object to the Discovery Institute being biased in this claim. However, I think it is standard for simple, factual claims, to cite and defer to a public organizations claims. We take Discovery’s word at who their Board members are, for example. (I will address later how the sources currently cited are not neutral third parties).
I find it simply astounding that Discovery’s reasonable, public, explanation of this fact will be entirely ignored by the wiki article. Here are some additional, verifiable facts about the Discovery Institute.
Is it reasonable to label an institution “Conservative Christian” in the first sentence when they employ, at a high level, the author of “Why The Jews Rejected Jesus”? I think not. Furthermore, Felon, you make up your numbers, which I’ll be charitable and presume were estimates (98% and 2%). Be honest, you have no idea how many % of the Discovery fellows or staff are “conservative Christians.” Furthermore, there is no evidence that the publicly identified non-Christian members are “token” members. There are in fact several publicly verifiable Christians at Discovery (Dembski, etc.). However, there is no verifiable document saying what precise percentage of Fellows, staff, or board members are any particular religion.
Your claim would categorize John Miller, chairman of the Board for four years, as “token.” What sort of “Christian organization” employs a “token Jew” as the chairman of its board? You make a claim that the non-conservative Christian members of Discovery are “conservative theists who share the same goals.” This is a fascinating admission. Conservative theists is not the same thing as Conservative Christians. Theist is a much broader category than Christian. Indeed, many who fit “theists” would vehemently object to being labeled “Christian” (which you seem to do). Jews and Moslems, to name just two, should not be wrongly labeled Christian just because they are theists.
Wikipedia is not obliged to follow POV name-calling as verifiable fact. I suspect an interested reader would be shocked to find out that what the Wiki article calls a “conservative Christian” organization engaged in many non-Christian causes (Cascadia, for example), was lead by a Jewish Chairman of the Board, and has a Senior Fellow who has written a book that is exceedingly non-Christian. Not to mention that the organization will readily employ any agnostic, atheist, Catholic, Jew, or person of whatever religious affiliation. Veritasjohn 14:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The argument made by User:FeloniousMonk relies largely on Intelligent Design being "explicitly Christian" and thus, the Discovery Institute which advances ID must also be "explicitly Christian." This argument proves too much. Even if Intelligent Design is religious (a contentious POV claim made by Kitzmiller, and disagreed with by many), this does not make the Discovery Institute "explicitly Christian"
Mustafa Aykol at The White Path is a devout Moslem supporting Intelligent Design. According to User:FeloniousMonks logical fallacy, anybody who supports intelligent design becomes "explicitly Christian." That would make Mr. Aykol a "Christian" – which he is clearly not. Even if you assume ID has the property of being "Christian" that property does not transfer to those who support intelligent design.
User:FeloniousMonks argument hangs the hat entirely on the intelligent design peg. By that logic anybody and everybody who supports intelligent design should be described as "explicitly Christian." That makes no sense. Jkaplan 20:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
No. Mr Christopher 01:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, Wade, you owe FeloniousMonk a thank you for all the personal intelligent design turoring he provides you on these talk pages at no cost. I am amazed at his scholarship, patience and willingness to educate you. Amazed. You should be one of the most well read and up to date individuals on any of these subjects just from the research he does on your behalf. Holy cow man you owe him a big thank you. Mr Christopher 20:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in my reply here.
FM, Thanks for pointing out that the first footnote does support the claim. There's so much ad-spam I could barely find the words of the article, much less the little page links under the Google AdWords.
So as far as the application of a label in a Wikipedia article, from what the admins here have stated it seems that how the DI is identified in media sources is more important than the full spectrum of what they do, who their membership/leadership consists of, and how the organization identifies themselves, even when there is conflict between these possible sources of establishing a label.
Very well. Media supersedes all. Seems very shallow to me and assumes that media sources always give reliable information and have a pragmatic omniscience. While I disagree with this methodology, if this is the way that Wikipedia has established its policy, then I suppose, "it is what it is." If anyone wishes to dispute a label applied by media sources, never mind what the group does, one must provide other media sources stating that the DI is indeed a secular organization. Anybody have any sources? -- Platonic Realm 17:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
First, to address the media argument briefly. I don't believe this has been established as Wiki policy in the status quo. [WP:V] does not say that a critic's claim about an organization must be taken as fact. It would be absurd for Wiki articles to blindly follow critic's claims about something as a verifiable fact. If that were the case, the Evolution page might as well say that Darwinism led to Nazi's - since some critics of Darwinism make this claim in the media.
I think we need to set a much higher standard, especially when dealing in issues of academia in which credible information and sources should be the point of origin. As we have seen, just over the past yr, the media has occasionally embellished information for airtime that later turned out to be false. First, we all remember the Jayson Blair incident, in which a journalist for one of the most respected papers, was proven to have fabricated evidence over a number of years. Second, during the Katrina recovery reports of "thousands dead" turned out to be false. In addition, in interviews with the media, both Mayor Nagin and Police Chief Compass reported "rapes of 'babies,' Nagin spoke of 'hundreds of armed gang members killing and raping people' inside the Dome. Other unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies 'we couldn't count.'" All of this information turned out to be false. We all remember these claims well because they were trumpeted in the media. However, as you may note, there was not a similar quick jump to correct this false information. Using media sources for information leaves much to be desired especially in an academic discussion when the Media claims are expressly denied by the source.
Second, briefly to the point of DI being a "Christian Think Tank." When you compare DI to many notable self-proclaimed think tanks, I think you see a real difference. Look for example at FRC(Family Research Council www.FRC.org), CWA (Concerned Women for America www.cwfa.org), The Christian Coalition (www.cc.org), Focus on the Family (www.family.org), and the Acton Institute (. When you look at the principles of these organizations you will see that they are all distinctly Christian in focus, mission, membership, and identity. Note, for instance the principles of FRC.
: * God exists and is sovereign over all creation. He created human beings in His image. Human life is, therefore, sacred and the right to life is the most fundamental of political rights. * Life and love are inextricably linked and find their natural expression in the institutions of marriage and the family. * Government has a duty to promote and protect marriage and family in law and public policy. * The American system of law and justice was founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic. * American democracy depends upon a vibrant civil society composed of families, churches, schools, and voluntary associations.
This does sound like a very Christian organization and well it should. The vision, mission, membership, and identity of the aforementioned Christian think tanks seem to be very different than that of DI. DI's Vision, mission, membership, and identity encompass many issues, realms, and members. While DI's membership may include Christians and Christians may have some interest in certain areas of DI's research this in no way makes it a 'Christian' organization. The Discovery Institute does not have any Christian statement of faith equivalent to what these actual Christian think thanks have. To say DI is Christian would mean that since I know some members of the ACLU who are Christians and know that the ACLU has partnered with Christian organizations (both verifiable facts), therefore, the ACLU a 'Christian organization.' This claim would be dishonest both intellectually and academically and such is the same of labeling DI a 'Christian' think tank. Cabanaman 21:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
First, let us clarify, none of the Wiki editors discussion this issue, are representing their own reasoning and judgment on this particular issue. Felinious at one point seemed to imply that DI has “come here and insist that they (Discovery Institute) are not a Christian organization.” It is not the DI insisting that they are not, it is a good number of Wiki editors who fail to see how DI can be fairly described as a Christian think thank, as if they are one and the same with Family Research Council and the like.
Second, the Jewish members of Discovery should not be denegraded with slurs of “token” status. In two places, Mr. Christopher makes this claim:
The verifiable fact that John Miller was chairman of the Board for Discovery for many years does not seem to support a “token” claim. Furthermore, the tone of these comments appear to me to be an insult to the several public non-Christian members. This “token” argument looks a lot like a personal insult to the non-Christian members. David Klinghoffer, who wrote Why the Jews Rejected Jesus is not just some “token” member, but rather a well publicized Jewish columnist. What is more problematic about this point, having several high profile Jewish members should give everyone pause before declaring that DI is “conservative Christian.” I’m sure both John Miller and David Klinghoffer would object to be described as part of a “Christian” agenda and organization.
Third, “Christian” and “theists” are not the same thing. In many places, the argument advanced was that “theists” have the same agenda as the Christians, so this whole discussion is moot. However, accuracy is important with religious terms. Christians are theists, as are Moslems and Jews. That does BOLDnotBOLD make Jews or Moslems Christians. It is simply confounding that the article, or arguments in discussion, would imply that Moslems and Jews can be categorized as “Christians” simply because they support a similar cause.
The problem with these statements can be found in another comment from FeliniousMonk: “What the DI does and says goes a lot further to determining what the DI is than what flavor of theist its members are.”FeloniousMonk 22:43, 27 October 2006 If that claim is true, then the Christian, personal religious “flavor” of “its members” should not justify labeling DI as “Christian.” I agree with FeliniousMonk on this point. Look – if Klinghoff’ers book BOLDWhy the Jews Rejected JesusBOLD does not make DI an anti-Christian Jewish think tank, then Dembski’s believes about God and the designer does not make DI Christian. If Well’s Moonie status does not make DI a “Moonie think tank” then Philip Johnson’s personal views and books does not make Discovery a Christian think tank. However, later, Felinious seems to change his position on the status of fellows: “Um, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Discovery Institute comprises its fellows, and so musings of its fellows on the topic is not only relevant, but necessary in determining what Discovery Institute fellows believe.” FeloniousMonk 18:43, 27 October 2006. This looks a lot like the Christian believes of the fellows matters, but the Jewish, Moonie or Agnostic views of fellows do not matter. That is not neutral.
Furtermore, there was never any analysis of how, if intelligent design is such a blatenly Christian cause, there can be devout Moslems, such as “Mustafa Aykol at The White Path is a devout Moslem supporting Intelligent Design” Jkaplan 20:58, 27 October 2006, who are not also wrongly labeled as “Christian” for supporting intelligent design.
Fourth, the Wedge Document was repeatedly touted as Discovery’s “Manifesto.” While the Wedge Document does show that many Christians have reason to support intelligent design, the fact remians that the Wedge Document was a fund raising letter, and at most, relevant to what the CS(r)C believes. The document does not address the Discovery Board, or any programs other than CSC. Remember, CSC came later, first came social programs, foreign policy, Cascadia, and the like. None of these programs are implicated, even if we take Wedge = Christian as gospel.
Fifth, Discovery lacks many common (necessary?) attributes of Christian think tanks. This argument has not been addressed by either the discussion of Christian members, or the ID/Wedge issue. There is no religious test or even standard for members. Atheists, agnostics, jews, anybody is welcome. They are welcome, because unlike expressly Christian organizations (Focus on the Family, for example) the organization does not consider itself Christian. They have no statement of faith for the organization. Even presuming the Wedge is some sort of proxy for that, it would only work for CS(r)C, not the whole Institute. Furthermore, the high-profile non-Christian members belie the Christian label for the whole institute. There is no David Klinghoffer working for the Acton Institute, or the Family Research Council – since those organizations actually have religious standards and mandatory beliefs.
While I think all these points are important to note in the discussion, it does appear at this time that many news organizations and published sources (some biased) call Discovery a “Christian think tank.” That label, in all the sources I have looked up, has no justification – it is simply a label given to Discovery. None of the cited sources adaquately addresses the facts highlighted in this discussion. However, Wiki seems to be off track with standards, so the labels given (without supporting reason) trump the verifiable facts about the organization. I hope, and suspect, the Wiki article will continue to point out that Discovery Itself does not consider the institute to be a “Christian think tank.” Veritasjohn 17:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
FM, I, for myself, am not arguing that, at times, "the DI does not pursue Christian agenda or promote a Christian POV." Some of the members do. The fact remains that the organization is far more than simply "Christian." I am arguing that their secular programs precede and go far beyond their claimed "Christian agenda." Your argument, FM, that the DI is "Christian" because of their involvement with ID and their fellows, is belied by the fact that there is alot more to the DI than ID, the Wedge doc, and what some of their member do sometimes. The other activity I am speaking of here includes:
Activities -
Hierarchical -
Leadership -
The claim that the DI does not pursue Christian agenda or promote a Christian POV is belied by the DI's own programs [71] and manifesto. [72] -FM
So one program, and one document, with media sources, justifies an all-encompassing adjective in the first sentence of an encyclopedia article?
This is my point: The Discovery Institute does much more than "Christian" activity. In order for this article to be accurate, it should report something besides, "The Discovery Institute is a conservative Christian think tank structured as a non-profit educational foundation, founded in 1990 and based in Seattle, Washington, USA" in its first sentence.
My comment here is that sticking an adjective in an article and citing media sources does not mean the adjective is accurate, especially if the organization is involved in many more projects that have nothing to do with their efforts to promote ID, or their "Christian" activity.
Equivocation will not suffice for an accurate presentation of what the Discovery Institute actually is and does. If what the organization actually is, does, and says is irrelevant to the article because it is "original research" according to Wikipedia standards, then so be it. But the facts remain that there is much more to the DI than merely a "Christian agenda," which is basically what the first sentence says to anyone reading between the lines.
I will concede that most of the media attention they get is through the intelligent design issue. It seems that many agree with the inaccurate label for this very reason (including the continual assertions of manifestos by Mr Christopher and FM). This does not change the fact that there is a lot more to this organization than "Christian" activity, the fact remains that most of what they do is political, technological, and economic, not religious or “Christian.”
"...come here and insist that they..." -FM
I think here you're insinuating that individuals discussing this topic, that disagree with you, are employed by the DI or IDEA. I now inform you that in my case you are sadly mistaken. I would also observe that this is a shallow attempt by you to discredit a legitimate point by making assertions with no evidence whatsoever. JoshuaZ and FM, disparaging me, or anyone else, about a single purpose account doesn't make it so.
I happen to disagree with the ID community on many points. For example, I find intolerable those who insist that ID should be taught in the public science classroom. I think they need peer-reviewed work and more support from the scientific community at large.
I also find it intolerable that JoshuaZ and FM would disparage users with baseless assertions. I am a new Wikipedia user who peruses and occasionally makes corrections and suggestions when I think they are warranted. [73] This article does not accurately reflect what the DI is, and so I am making comments that I think are warranted on this point. I am not employed by the DI nor by IDEA. If I am breaking any rules by commenting on a point of accuracy, please let me know and I will immediately desist.
Otherwise, I will continue making comments and suggestions that I think are important for this article, and others, to be accurate and worth reading for the visitors here.
If media sources are trump, and referencing the DI website in the first sentence is original research, then this DI article is at Wikipedia standards, and I have no arguments worth discussing. I will cease this discussion if that is the case; I certainly have better things to do than argue with Wikipedia how it should run itself.
But if that is not the case, I think there should be efforts to make this article more accurate regarding this first sentence. -- Platonic Realm 21:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I found this part of the controversy section interesting. "At the foundation of most criticism of the Discovery Institute is the charge that the institute and its Center for Science and Culture intentionally misrepresent or omit many important facts in promoting their agenda." Hmm, does the omission of the fact that this allegedly "conservative Christian think tank" had a Jewish chairman of the board constitute an example? This statement in the Wikipedia article strikes me as a tad tu quoque. -- Wade A. Tisthammer 16:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Alright, that looks really good. Thanks for adding the cite FM. Nice superscript letters. I really like discussing contributions on this page: we discuss changes and I don't have to do any of the fancy editing work. :-) -- Platonic Realm 00:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The article states
Its areas of interest include intelligent design, public school education...
Does anyone have any evidence of the DI doing anything for public school education, unrelated to undermining science standards (which comes under the intelligent design umbrella). Unless we can validate they have any active program(s) that is dedicated to public school education and is not intelligent design related we should remove this. I'll give it a day or so before removing it in case someone knows something about the DI having a legitimate "public school education" component that I am obviously unaware of. Mr Christopher 16:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted them: They seem appropriate for a biography, but I can't at all see how they deal with the Discovery Institute. Correct me if I'm wrong? Adam Cuerden talk 16:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
That's also true of the Chapman bio as well, though: That whole section needs citing up. There's a good list of possible cites at George Gilder, luckily. (However, we really should mention the anti-feminist content of the books (presuming his main article is accurate) if we mention them.) However, it's not a bad start. Adam Cuerden talk 12:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
This article touches on the wedge document/strategy but obviously the real meat of that subject is covered in the wedge article. Since that document represents the origins of a significant amount of criticism, would it be helpful to elaborate on it in this article (without going overboard of course)? I think we should consider at least outlining the two goals:
We now have:
The Wedge document, a widely circulated 1998 internal memo laid out Discovery's original, ambitious plan to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism," "thereby divorcing science from its purely observational and naturalistic methodology and reversing the deleterious effects of evolution on Western culture." Meyer says that the Wedge document "was stolen from our offices and placed on the Web without permission."[50] The central item of this agenda - establishing intelligent design as legitimate science through conducting actual scientific research - has not been achieved.[51]
I propose we do the following:
The Wedge document, a widely circulated 1998 internal memo laid out Discovery's original, ambitious plan to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism," "thereby divorcing science from its purely observational and naturalistic methodology and reversing the deleterious effects of evolution on Western culture." The two primary goals outlined in the Wedge document are:
*To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies. *To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.
Meyer says that the Wedge document "was stolen from our offices and placed on the Web without permission."[50] The central item of this agenda - establishing intelligent design as legitimate science through conducting actual scientific research - has not been achieved.[51]
My formatting stinks but I think you can see where I'm going with this. I think capturing the goals here would help the reader understand what some of the fuss is about as well as put some of the controversy in perspective. It also puts the DI's perspective in perspective so to speak. Any thoughts? Mr Christopher 18:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Governing Goals
To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies. To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
Five Year Goals
To see intelligent design theory as an accepted alternative in the sciences and scientific research being done from the perspective of design theory. To see the beginning of the influence of design theory in spheres other than natural science. To see major new debates in education, life issues, legal and personal responsibility pushed to the front of the national agenda.
Twenty Year Goals
To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science. To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts. To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.
But as far as the article does, I think the two governing goals will do nicely. Mr Christopher 00:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the lead, by sidestepping all the controversy until the last sentence, may be NPOV, but I'm not sure. Does anyone else think so, or is my vague dislike better off suppressed? Adam Cuerden talk 18:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Right. I'm probably not going to have time to do it very quickly, but I'll do what I can. Adam Cuerden talk 18:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the wiki link inserted for Nina Shapiro. The writer does not appear to be a candidate for a wiki biography, and thus I do not think a red link to no page is appropriate. Veritasjohn 15:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the DI has now added global warming skepticism to their list of causes: [81]. JoshuaZ 02:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
More DI "legal" antics Mr Christopher 20:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's try again... Study Shows Discovery Institute Copied Book For Law Review Article here is the conclusion:
Professor Irons concluded his study with these comments: "It seems to me the height of hypocrisy for the Discovery Institute to accuse Judge Jones of copying 90 percent of one section of his opinion (just 16 percent of its total length) from the proposed findings of fact by the plaintiff's lawyers, when the DI itself tried to palm off as 'original' work a law review article that was copied 95 percent from the authors' own book. Concealing this fact from the law review editors, until I discovered and documented this effort, seriously undercuts the credibility of the DI on this or any other issue."
According to that article , Irons isn't some clown pretending to be a "legal scholar", he is a "Harvard Law School graduate and member of the United States Supreme Court bar, is a noted authority on First Amendment law and has published more than a dozen books on constitutional litigation, as well as numerous articles in the Harvard Law Review and other prestigious journals." Should this latest DI controversy be mentioned in the article. Does it seem noteworthy to others? Under the circumtstances it seems highly relevant to me. Mr Christopher 20:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been re-acquainting myself with the DI page after a little Wiki break. Though people who follow the Discovery Institute and intelligent design may know what "study" refers to, the title is very ambigous. I suggest that some more descriptive name be used. I'm not commenting on the merits or content of the section at this point, just suggesting a more usable title for Wiki readers. Especially in the TOC at the top of the DI page, I don't think "study" is descriptive enough. Cheers! Veritasjohn 17:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I have been re-reading the "study" section and have a few problems with the current version. First, the final sentence about the counter-study seems to be confusing, and not adaquately sourced.
A subsequent study performed by Wesley Elsberry, author of a text comparison program approved for use and considered authoritative in Federal court, on the section of the plaintiffs proposed findings of fact regarding whether ID is science with the section of the ruling on the same subject indicated that Judge Jones actually only incorporated 35% of the findings of fact and conclusions of law that the plaintiffs proposed that he incorporate, not the 90.9% the Discovery Institute claimed.[64][65]
I have two problems:
I think the sentence should be modified in some way to fix these problems. Veritasjohn 06:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism". it does not say the above. where is the cite for the above?
and why is it evil to be against "scientific materialism"???
raspor 01:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
When you quote someone You should always add a citation when quoting published material, and the citation should be placed directly after the quotation, which should be enclosed within double quotation marks — "like this" — or single quotation marks if it's a quote-within-a-quote — "and here is such a 'quotation' as an example." For long quotes, you may wish to use Template:Quotation. (an unsigned comment by Raspor)
Raspor is correct (in a sense) that without naturalism and evolution we wouldn't have drugs - or rather, we would have the sort of drygs you can buy on infomercials. If we cannot rule out the supernatural, we can never demonstrate the one drug works better than the other. Consequently, the FDA (and similar bodies in other countries) couldn't approve any mor drugs. If we can't rule out the supernatural we can't say that it was penicillin that killed the bacteria and not a supernatural event. Without common descent we have no grounds for animal testing, since inferences are only valid on the basis of the phylogenetic relationships between species. Without the assumption that the phylogeny is basically correct, animal testing is simply animal cruelty. Guettarda 14:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
No I said it. Raspor disagreed.-- Filll 15:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
""If we cannot rule out the supernatural, we can never demonstrate the one drug works better than the other"" oh bull! of course you can test regardless of whether one believes in the supernatural or not. didnt you ever hear of a double blind study? are you guys aware of how this testing works at all? where do you get this stuff??? raspor 15:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
You really do not know much about science. And I am a scientists because I have 2 undergraduate degrees and 4 graduate degrees in science, and have made my living being paid to do science for years. So I think I know what a scientist is. You are clueless. If I have the supernatural that can intervene mysteriously at any time and any place and ruin the results then I can know nothing. Now I can test for the effect of prayer. We have done so several times, in controlled studies, and we have found NO effect of prayer. Prayer itself might change brain chemistry so I will not say prayer is worthless. But expecting a supernatural response to prayer is more pseudoscience than science at least as far as we can tell.-- Filll 17:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
We have tried to measure supernatural things like the effect of prayer but failed to find any effects in most studies. So you are incorrect. You just will reject whatever I say, that is clear. From your writing style, I would doubt strongly that you are a Nobel Prize holder unless you are not a native English speaker.-- Filll 17:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Though first a reminder: this page is for discussing improvements to the article, not for telling each other ghost stories. Anyway, if raspor's correct about the "citation" from the wedge document, that's a valuable point and the statement should be revised to match what the document actually says. Thanks for picking that up, raspor. .. dave souza, talk 18:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Contrary to appearances, I am not taunting. I am trying to engage raspor in productive discussions. I have done the same with adlac and others who hold different views than mine. Sometimes useful information emerges. I am not so sure this is possible in raspor's case.-- Filll 18:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I found it on a parody of Barbara Forrest on the DI site:
From a book by Barbara Forrest:
Other people might have picked up on Forrest's wording. It might be in other DI materials: I am not sure.-- Filll 19:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Bobjob:A bobjob is a job well done... bobjob-- Filll 19:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to remember to
-- Filll 20:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
(reduce indent) Please see WP:V, specifically, The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Striving for "Truth" is specifically against Wikipedia policy, because the truth is inherently a matter of personal opinion. Your personal opinion is valid, as your personal opinion, but only the verifiably accurate is desired on Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua ?!? 21:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
(reduce) In that case, WP:NPOV#Undue weight kicks in. Apply the three pillars of NPOV, NOR, and V, and you can't go wrong. KillerChihuahua ?!? 11:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
This section looks like it could use some more sub-headers or something that logically organizes the flow of information a little better. Opinions? Mr Christopher 22:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
for clarity and discussion, the controversy section (whtout a sub header like the Jones Study) is primarily comprised of these areas:
I'm thinking we'd do our readers a favor if we somehow organized these subjects within the Controversy section. I'm not sure how best to do that yet. Mr Christopher 22:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
See the quote by the DI about itself at the end of this article [http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54176] JoshuaZ 16:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is this page in Category:Discovery Institute fellows and advisors? The discovery institute is not fellow or advisor in itself. Should perhaps a Category:Discovery Institute be created to go between Category:Intelligent design and Category:Discovery Institute fellows and advisors.-- ZayZayEM 03:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)