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Information for Latvia and Indonesia is missing, as the foreignaffairs site is returning a blank page for those entries. I'm fairly certain Latvia has an Irish embassy because they're in the EU, and the government has a policy of having embassies in all the EU member states. No clue about Indonesia though... Demiurge 19:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There is now a discussion at WP:FOR on the formatting and content of "List of diplomatic missions" articles. As this discussion ostensibly could affect this article, editors are encouraged to provide their opinions on the WP:FOR at this link - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_International_relations#Formatting_of_diplomatic_missions_lists - please do not discuss on this article talk page as valid points for consideration may very well not be seen by editors at large. Thank you, -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 00:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The article listed the "Republic of China (Taiwan)" in the same way as every other country. However, Ireland does not recognise RoC/Taiwan as a country. I initially moved the Taipei entry to follow under the China entry as the Irish Government considers Taiwan part of China. However, on balance, they could be listed separately as persons comming to the article might search under Taiwan (without looking at China) so I have amended the entry so that no Flag or "Republic of China" description is given but the position is explained in a footnote so as to read as follows:
To leave it as it was originally would be misleading and inaccurate. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 22:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Kransky ( talk) 14:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE
From what you have posted, I think you see "little compelling reason" to make any changes re Taiwan etc. I will try to explain further why the article is both misleading and inaccurate as it stands....If I convince you that it is accurate and misleading, would that be compelling enough reason for you to change the article?
I am aware this will mean changes in most of the other similar articles too.
While, I think the reasons I have already given are pretty clear and compelling, here are some further points:
The Republic of Ireland (incidentally, inaccurate name of state - its name is "Ireland" (Art. 4 of Constitution) - If you are talking about embassies and diplomatic missions etc., you will never find one called Embassy of the Republic of Ireland, but I digress from the point in discussion) has diplomatic relations (Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with "RoC/Taiwan" but the article clearly implies it does) with 161 foreign governments. [2] The Irish government has 74 missions across the world [2], including 55 embassies, 8 multilateral missions and 8 Consulates General and other offices. The country has also appointed 24 Honorary Consuls General and 62 Honorary Consuls. This list is sourced from the Department of Foreign Affairs website, and was last updated in March 2007. (That is inaccurate. The Department of Foreign Affairs does not list the "Republic of China" anywhere - it would not do so as Ireland considers Taiwan as part of the People's Republic of China).
As to the principle of self-identification (whatever that is) - who is the self concerned? This is an article about Ireland's diplomatic missions etc...It is Ireland that is the self concerned. If Ireland does not recognise a state, an article about Ireland's missions etc should not suggest it does. Your approach also ignores the other possible self - Ireland recognises the Peoples Republic of China as the sovereign power in Taiwan. The PRC does not consider Taiwan to be the Republic of China or to have the flag etc....On what basis have you determined that the Taiwan Authorities (as Ireland and the PRC would refer to them) are the relevant self. What is that POV based on?
Re Kosovo, Israel and the TRN - Ireland recognisese Kosovo and Israel - I would fully agree that if they were listed in an article about Ireland's missions etc., it is clear they should be listed as regular countries as the others. Obviously, the TRN is not recognised by Ireland and so the same logic applies to it as to Ireland.
Well, have a think about it....I presume I will not change your mind....but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia where accuracy is paramount and POVs put to one side so I would ask you to think about it. I fully appreciate that whatever is decided here has application on most of the other similar pages (which are presumably similarly misleading/inaccurate at the moment) Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 02:30, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Kransky ( talk) 00:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Kransky ( talk) 10:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia refers to the Republic of China as such - Therefore we should refer to the ROC as such in any context. The ROC does not just contain Taiwan, but also the Pescadores, Kinmen, and Matsu, which are separate from Taiwan. Therefore Taiwan is too simple of a description. I must add that the names of missions to and from the ROC in countries that do not recognize the ROC use Taipei, NOT Taiwan. That is because the PRC does not recognize Taiwan as being separate from the rest of China. Countries using "Taiwan" would imply that Taiwan is NOT a part of China. WhisperToMe ( talk) 13:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I believe that we should leave the flags and refer to 'Taiwan' as the 'Republic of China.' Regardless if a country recognizes the ROC or not, I believe it is irrelevant. If a nation has a diplomatic missions in the ROC, then the mission should be referenced under the flag of the ROC. If we do arrive to an agreement, who will edit all 180+ articles? We should remain consistent and not favour one particular article. Another point, I personally feel that we should remove the "The Institute for Trade and Investment" because I don't feel that it is a diplomatic mission. It is not mentioned in the website of the Irish Dept. of Foreign Affairs nor in the website of the Embassy of Ireland in China. It is only mentioned in the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of China (Taiwan). It seems to me that they are not an office aligned to the Irish Dept. of Foreign Affairs. Aquintero ( talk) 15:23, 6 November, 2008 (UTC)
A few points:
Here is the Irish position on Taiwan (the footnotes may not show up on the talk page but I am sure you can find them):
Concerning the Taiwan issue, Ireland follows a One-China policy. In 2007, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern summarised the Irish position as follows: [3]
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 of 25 October 1971 recognised the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole representative of China. Although Taiwan continues to exercise autonomy and to term itself ‘The Republic of China’, this is not recognised in international law. Taiwan’s official status is that of a Province of China...Ireland recognises the Government of the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and there is no inter-Governmental contact between the two sides. A Taipei Representative Office, established in Dublin in 1988, has a representative function in relation to economic and cultural promotion, but no diplomatic or political status.
In light of the above how can you seriously suggest we list the "Republic of China" as a country Ireland has a diplomatic presence in? The Taiwan entry should either be (a) removed entirely; or (b) edited as I had suggested (i.e. removing reference to "Republic of China", replacing with either Taiwan (my preference) or Taipei or Taiwan, China or Chineese Taiwan and footnoting that Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan or recognise it as a state. For the time being, as an alternative to my original suggestion, I will remove Taiwan altogether from the list. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Singapore Airlines destinations says Taiwan, not RoC)
1. Redking continues to insist that the Irish office in Taipei is either removed, or if included, is referred to by the name Ireland calls RoC/Taiwan. 2. I have continually responded that we name receiving countries in these articles according to how they call themselves, and sending countries according to how they call themselves. The fact that the government on Taiwan calls itself the Republic of China is an accurate statement, even if few other states recognises its name. 3. I have continually added I am open to a review of this policy, adding that I have no problems with Redking's change, as long as it is supported by a consensus and is applied consistently in all these articles (not just to Taiwanese missions but also to other countries with naming issues). 4. Redking appears to have difficulty following the logic presented in (2), and is refusing to enter into a debate at (3) by making changes to the article as he see fits without entering into debate. I note other writers have criticised his suggestion; I believe it is still possible to find agreement on the matter 5. I mentioned before it was my last say on the matter - correct me if you wish, but I believe we have been patient enough with Redking, and if he continues to make these reverts without working constructively towards developing a consensus, I believe we can consider his edits to be disruptive. Kransky ( talk) 11:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE: I have quoted the Irish Government stating that Ireland:
User: Kransky does not dispute the authenticity of these quotes but insists that the Article should:
Like User: Kransky, I support "working constructively towards developing a consensus". I also think making sure the article is accurate is an absolute essential. After all, this is an encyclopedia. Regards Redking7 ( talk) 00:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Above, you are essentially asking me again to discuss other articles, not just the Diplomatic missions of Ireland article - the only relevant article I have edited or discussed. I do not want to discuss other articles - but you insist - and because you sound like a well-meaning editor, I will - but only a little: Firstly I do not want to (i) put you down; or (ii) sound condescending. That said, your stated devotion to consistency even at the cost of accuracy [I have clearly shown above that leaving the RoC/Taiwan entry as it was would be inaccurate and misleading but you wanted no change], means you and I will never see eye-to-eye. For me articles must always try to be accurate. That is No. 1. Articles should also never be misleading. Hence, my edits.
General points re: If you really give a damn about this project I expect you to put in some work - not just wanting one change on one article to fit a personal preference and expecting others to make the requisite changes to everything else - and to fight the battles alone that this change will create.:
Further comment re Taiwan in the Ireland List - Much earlier in this discussion, I gave two alternatives in respect of the Taiwan entry on the Ireland list: "The Taiwan entry should either be (a) removed entirely; or (b) edited as I had suggested (i.e. removing reference to "Republic of China", replacing with either Taiwan (my preference) or Taipei or Taiwan, China or Chineese Taiwan" as well as stating clearly that Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan or recognise it as a state. The second alternative reflects that I partly agree with you. Listing Ireland's "Institute for Investment and Trade" in Taipei might well add something to the article. However, it would have to be listed accurately and not in a misleading way. Otherwise, it should be left out. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 23:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE:After all of this discussion the position has not changed at all...I have quoted the Irish Government stating that Ireland:
User: Kransky does not dispute the authenticity of these quotes but insists that the Article should:
Like User: Kransky, I support "working constructively towards developing a consensus". I also think making sure the article is accurate is an absolute essential. After all, this is an encyclopedia. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 14:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Discussion continues here. - This is the relevant discussion page so it is not appropriate to move the discussion. I have tried to solicit the views of any interested Editors on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
The fact is, even though the Irish government doesn't have *official* diplomatic relations with the ROC, it does have unofficial relations with the ROC. The ROC is the political entity that the Irish government interacts with, even if the Irish government does not officially recognise it. If the Taiwanese residents want to have an Irish visa, that office in Taipei is where they go to get it. If Irish citizens need to have assistance while they are in Taiwan, that office is where they go to get the help. It is a de facto diplomatic mission. This practical piece of information is useful for people who read Wikipedia.
It is accurate for Wikipedia to list the office as a diplomatic mission while having a footnote saying something to the effect of "the Irish government does not have official relations with the ROC". It is important to note that the Irish government's official POV is not the only POV. We as editors need to balances all POVs.-- pyl ( talk) 15:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Recognition and diplomatic relations are not the same thing. To use an unrelated example, the United States recognizes the authority of the Castro-led government over Cuba, but does not have diplomatic relations with it. Are we supposed to remove all quasi-official representative offices? Inclusion is by no means inaccurate. In the case of Taiwan, it is common for governments to deny that their "trade offices" have any governmental status and yet staff these very same offices with diplomats. Hence, they are de facto diplomatic missions. Citizens of Ireland who show up at the PRC embassy applying for a visa to go to Taiwan are without exception turned away. Representation does not necessarily require diplomatic relations.-- Jiang ( talk) 16:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree that we should state that Ireland, and for that matter all countries, that have a representative office abroad or have one within should be recognized and included within the articles. Though Ireland and Taiwan may not have formal diplomatic relations, there is however informal ones that exist, and Taiwan does have a representative office in Dublin, and Ireland has one as well in Taipei. As previous members have mentioned above, when Irish citizens wish to visit Taiwan, they must seek their visa at the Taipei Representative Office in Ireland, and vis a versa. Aquintero ( talk) 15:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE: I have quoted the Irish Government stating that Ireland:
None of the participants dispute the authenticity of these quotes but insists that the Article should:
Other countries may be more ambiguous but Ireland is very clear. One Editor tried to draw a comparison with Cuba - The USA does not consider Cuba a 'Province of another country' etc, or consider another governement the legitimate government of Cuba. The comparison does not stack up. How can you advocate a total misstatment - saying that Ireland has a diplomatic mission to the RoC/Taiwan? If it is to be listed at all, it should be abundently clear to all readers that the position is not the same as with the countries listed on the article. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 00:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
P.S: It is important to note that the Irish government's official POV is not the only POV. That is wrong. The only PoV that counts here is Ireland's (i.e. the Irish government) - This is an article listing Ireland's diplomatic missions. The opinions of others persons or countries etc are not relevant to the List. Regards again. Redking7 ( talk) 00:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Everybody - please pay attention here.
Thank you all for coming to present your views, and generally keeping a civil tongue.
These articles are designed to illustrate how countries extend their influence overseas. They are not intended to make comment on the nature of these relations. Therefore I do not want these articles to be peppered with legalistic riders, or to fail to acknowledge the presence of these unofficial posts (it is interesting to see how non-recognising states call their offices in Taipei!).
user:RedKing7 claims it is inaccurate to list diplomatic missions by non-recognising states in this article. I maintain that these representative offices do - for all intents and purposes - perform the core functions of diplomatic missions (Article III of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations), and are staffed and managed - albeit at arms length - by the sending state's foreign ministry. I would ask that we define what goes in these articles according to what helps enhance the value of the information presented, as I have mentioned above.
user:RedKing7's stricter definition of what goes in is by no means unworthy of consideration. However he has said he is not interested in making the necessary changes to the other 160+ articles, to keep this rule consistent. If the rule is going to be enforced, it will need to be universally enforced.
On user:Jiang's idea of comments like "commonly known as Taiwan" and a disclaimer about a state's lack of diplomatic relations, I think we can consider tighter writing which delivers the same effect. I note however that I do not want these articles to be peppered with unnecessary riders (which I do not see in other Taiwan-related articles), and if we do choose to include disclaimers, that it will be universally enforced.
I am ambivalent about using flags, but I would seek that we treat all missions in Taiwan as we would for all other flags, to maintain consistency. It is not as if including these flags in Wikipedia has some kind of symbolic or legalistic meaning. And if we do choose to remove flags for missions in Taiwan, that this rule will be (altogether now) universally enforced.
I strongly suggest that we maintain and uphold the principle of self-identification, in which we refer to receiving states according to how they call themselves (although I note this rule is not as universally enforced as I would like it to be) Kransky ( talk) 08:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Re: [1]. It is not accurate to say that Ireland does not recognize Taiwan while it is accurate to say that Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Diplomatic recognition and diplomatic relations are not the same thing, see diplomatic recognition. The statement, "there are no inter-governmental contacts between the two sides" is deliberately misleading. There is contact between organizations that are officially not government agencies, but controlled, staffed, and funded by the government as if they were. So this is more complicated than the statement implies. It is common to do one thing and call it another. We have to explain the actual situation, not blindly follow the rhetoric of one side.-- Jiang ( talk) 12:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Redking7 quoted the Irish minister of foreign affairs as saying:
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 of 25 October 1971 recognised the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole representative of China. Although Taiwan continues to exercise autonomy and to term itself ‘The Republic of China’, this is not recognised in international law. Taiwan’s official status is that of a Province of China...Ireland recognises the Government of the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and there is no inter-Governmental contact between the two sides. A Taipei Representative Office, established in Dublin in 1988, has a representative function in relation to economic and cultural promotion, but no diplomatic or political status.
And Redking7 has been using that quote as a basis for claiming that Ireland considers Taiwan part of the PRC. However it is not uncommon for high-ranking diplomatic officials and even presidents of the UN to misstate official positions regarding Taiwan of the bodies they represent. What does Irish law have to say on the matter? Does it actually say it considers Taiwan part of China, or does it use the vaguer language used by many other countries such as the U.S. that "acknowledges" China's position but doesn't endorse it?
Readin (
talk)
03:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your views Pyl and Readin. Both are valid. The reason why I am strict on maintaining consistency is to avoid disputes over Palestine, Cyprus, Western Sahara and other matters which may surface on these pages by people with viewpoints specific to particular conflicts. This article concerns the representation of Ireland abroad, and not whether it recognises Taiwan or not.
Kransky (
talk)
06:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE, concerning:
Generally, at least User: Kransky is clear on his/her views - he/she appears to care little for accuracy but is concerned about consistency. His style of Editing gives "Internet Encyclopedias" the sort of reputation they have. Others appear to have a POV that means accuracy does not matter. It may well be that User: Kransky's canvassing will pay off and my views will be drowned out by those with a POV agenda. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 22:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
References
The article header says that Ireland recognizes the PRC as the legitimate government of Taiwan. Some countries have a carefully negotiated policy of ambiguity combined with a "one-China" policy in which they acknowledge the PRC's one-policy position and say they don't argue with it, but they don't actually accept it. It is not uncommon for diplomatic officials of these countries to goof up and misstate the policy. We need to have a written reference source for Ireland's policy as a reliable source. One statement by a diplomat isn't enough. Readin ( talk) 19:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
: [1]United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 of 25 October 1971 recognised the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole representative of China. Although Taiwan continues to exercise autonomy and to term itself ‘The Republic of China’, this is not recognised in international law. Taiwan’s official status is that of a Province of China...Ireland recognises the Government of the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and there is no inter-Governmental contact between the two sides. A Taipei Representative Office, established in Dublin in 1988, has a representative function in relation to economic and cultural promotion, but no diplomatic or political status.
The Taiwan office is a mission even if it isn't a "mission". The same source that says Taiwan isn't recognized by Ireland also explains the duties the Taiwan office perform - which are those of a mission. The fact that Ireland has decided to call it something else for diplomatic purposes does not change what it is.
Someone coming to this page may only be interested in the offices that Ireland formally lists as "missions". More likely, they are interested in information about how Ireland deals with external governments and places, and perhaps even practical knowledge about where one should go to get travel documents to specific places. Leaving out Taiwan is a serious omission. And for those who just want the official list, Taiwan is clearly marked in the article as not being a formal mission.
Kransky, at the moment there are three people saying leave the Taipei office in there, with only one objecting. For now, please leave it in as while we continue the discussion. Readin ( talk) 14:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - If this discussion is kicking off again, I would note once again the following quote from the Irish Government, which states that Ireland:
Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 01:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
References
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Should the Irish Government Secretariat in Belfast be added to this list? Although its not a consulate, it is a Irish DFA office that is similar to the other diplomatic missions here and included on their website here. Its listing here may include a link to the British–Irish Intergovernmental Conference presumably? ( The office's Twitter account for reference) -- Gimelthedog ( talk) 21:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
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Information for Latvia and Indonesia is missing, as the foreignaffairs site is returning a blank page for those entries. I'm fairly certain Latvia has an Irish embassy because they're in the EU, and the government has a policy of having embassies in all the EU member states. No clue about Indonesia though... Demiurge 19:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There is now a discussion at WP:FOR on the formatting and content of "List of diplomatic missions" articles. As this discussion ostensibly could affect this article, editors are encouraged to provide their opinions on the WP:FOR at this link - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_International_relations#Formatting_of_diplomatic_missions_lists - please do not discuss on this article talk page as valid points for consideration may very well not be seen by editors at large. Thank you, -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 00:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The article listed the "Republic of China (Taiwan)" in the same way as every other country. However, Ireland does not recognise RoC/Taiwan as a country. I initially moved the Taipei entry to follow under the China entry as the Irish Government considers Taiwan part of China. However, on balance, they could be listed separately as persons comming to the article might search under Taiwan (without looking at China) so I have amended the entry so that no Flag or "Republic of China" description is given but the position is explained in a footnote so as to read as follows:
To leave it as it was originally would be misleading and inaccurate. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 22:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Kransky ( talk) 14:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE
From what you have posted, I think you see "little compelling reason" to make any changes re Taiwan etc. I will try to explain further why the article is both misleading and inaccurate as it stands....If I convince you that it is accurate and misleading, would that be compelling enough reason for you to change the article?
I am aware this will mean changes in most of the other similar articles too.
While, I think the reasons I have already given are pretty clear and compelling, here are some further points:
The Republic of Ireland (incidentally, inaccurate name of state - its name is "Ireland" (Art. 4 of Constitution) - If you are talking about embassies and diplomatic missions etc., you will never find one called Embassy of the Republic of Ireland, but I digress from the point in discussion) has diplomatic relations (Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with "RoC/Taiwan" but the article clearly implies it does) with 161 foreign governments. [2] The Irish government has 74 missions across the world [2], including 55 embassies, 8 multilateral missions and 8 Consulates General and other offices. The country has also appointed 24 Honorary Consuls General and 62 Honorary Consuls. This list is sourced from the Department of Foreign Affairs website, and was last updated in March 2007. (That is inaccurate. The Department of Foreign Affairs does not list the "Republic of China" anywhere - it would not do so as Ireland considers Taiwan as part of the People's Republic of China).
As to the principle of self-identification (whatever that is) - who is the self concerned? This is an article about Ireland's diplomatic missions etc...It is Ireland that is the self concerned. If Ireland does not recognise a state, an article about Ireland's missions etc should not suggest it does. Your approach also ignores the other possible self - Ireland recognises the Peoples Republic of China as the sovereign power in Taiwan. The PRC does not consider Taiwan to be the Republic of China or to have the flag etc....On what basis have you determined that the Taiwan Authorities (as Ireland and the PRC would refer to them) are the relevant self. What is that POV based on?
Re Kosovo, Israel and the TRN - Ireland recognisese Kosovo and Israel - I would fully agree that if they were listed in an article about Ireland's missions etc., it is clear they should be listed as regular countries as the others. Obviously, the TRN is not recognised by Ireland and so the same logic applies to it as to Ireland.
Well, have a think about it....I presume I will not change your mind....but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia where accuracy is paramount and POVs put to one side so I would ask you to think about it. I fully appreciate that whatever is decided here has application on most of the other similar pages (which are presumably similarly misleading/inaccurate at the moment) Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 02:30, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Kransky ( talk) 00:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Kransky ( talk) 10:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia refers to the Republic of China as such - Therefore we should refer to the ROC as such in any context. The ROC does not just contain Taiwan, but also the Pescadores, Kinmen, and Matsu, which are separate from Taiwan. Therefore Taiwan is too simple of a description. I must add that the names of missions to and from the ROC in countries that do not recognize the ROC use Taipei, NOT Taiwan. That is because the PRC does not recognize Taiwan as being separate from the rest of China. Countries using "Taiwan" would imply that Taiwan is NOT a part of China. WhisperToMe ( talk) 13:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I believe that we should leave the flags and refer to 'Taiwan' as the 'Republic of China.' Regardless if a country recognizes the ROC or not, I believe it is irrelevant. If a nation has a diplomatic missions in the ROC, then the mission should be referenced under the flag of the ROC. If we do arrive to an agreement, who will edit all 180+ articles? We should remain consistent and not favour one particular article. Another point, I personally feel that we should remove the "The Institute for Trade and Investment" because I don't feel that it is a diplomatic mission. It is not mentioned in the website of the Irish Dept. of Foreign Affairs nor in the website of the Embassy of Ireland in China. It is only mentioned in the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of China (Taiwan). It seems to me that they are not an office aligned to the Irish Dept. of Foreign Affairs. Aquintero ( talk) 15:23, 6 November, 2008 (UTC)
A few points:
Here is the Irish position on Taiwan (the footnotes may not show up on the talk page but I am sure you can find them):
Concerning the Taiwan issue, Ireland follows a One-China policy. In 2007, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern summarised the Irish position as follows: [3]
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 of 25 October 1971 recognised the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole representative of China. Although Taiwan continues to exercise autonomy and to term itself ‘The Republic of China’, this is not recognised in international law. Taiwan’s official status is that of a Province of China...Ireland recognises the Government of the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and there is no inter-Governmental contact between the two sides. A Taipei Representative Office, established in Dublin in 1988, has a representative function in relation to economic and cultural promotion, but no diplomatic or political status.
In light of the above how can you seriously suggest we list the "Republic of China" as a country Ireland has a diplomatic presence in? The Taiwan entry should either be (a) removed entirely; or (b) edited as I had suggested (i.e. removing reference to "Republic of China", replacing with either Taiwan (my preference) or Taipei or Taiwan, China or Chineese Taiwan and footnoting that Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan or recognise it as a state. For the time being, as an alternative to my original suggestion, I will remove Taiwan altogether from the list. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Singapore Airlines destinations says Taiwan, not RoC)
1. Redking continues to insist that the Irish office in Taipei is either removed, or if included, is referred to by the name Ireland calls RoC/Taiwan. 2. I have continually responded that we name receiving countries in these articles according to how they call themselves, and sending countries according to how they call themselves. The fact that the government on Taiwan calls itself the Republic of China is an accurate statement, even if few other states recognises its name. 3. I have continually added I am open to a review of this policy, adding that I have no problems with Redking's change, as long as it is supported by a consensus and is applied consistently in all these articles (not just to Taiwanese missions but also to other countries with naming issues). 4. Redking appears to have difficulty following the logic presented in (2), and is refusing to enter into a debate at (3) by making changes to the article as he see fits without entering into debate. I note other writers have criticised his suggestion; I believe it is still possible to find agreement on the matter 5. I mentioned before it was my last say on the matter - correct me if you wish, but I believe we have been patient enough with Redking, and if he continues to make these reverts without working constructively towards developing a consensus, I believe we can consider his edits to be disruptive. Kransky ( talk) 11:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE: I have quoted the Irish Government stating that Ireland:
User: Kransky does not dispute the authenticity of these quotes but insists that the Article should:
Like User: Kransky, I support "working constructively towards developing a consensus". I also think making sure the article is accurate is an absolute essential. After all, this is an encyclopedia. Regards Redking7 ( talk) 00:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Above, you are essentially asking me again to discuss other articles, not just the Diplomatic missions of Ireland article - the only relevant article I have edited or discussed. I do not want to discuss other articles - but you insist - and because you sound like a well-meaning editor, I will - but only a little: Firstly I do not want to (i) put you down; or (ii) sound condescending. That said, your stated devotion to consistency even at the cost of accuracy [I have clearly shown above that leaving the RoC/Taiwan entry as it was would be inaccurate and misleading but you wanted no change], means you and I will never see eye-to-eye. For me articles must always try to be accurate. That is No. 1. Articles should also never be misleading. Hence, my edits.
General points re: If you really give a damn about this project I expect you to put in some work - not just wanting one change on one article to fit a personal preference and expecting others to make the requisite changes to everything else - and to fight the battles alone that this change will create.:
Further comment re Taiwan in the Ireland List - Much earlier in this discussion, I gave two alternatives in respect of the Taiwan entry on the Ireland list: "The Taiwan entry should either be (a) removed entirely; or (b) edited as I had suggested (i.e. removing reference to "Republic of China", replacing with either Taiwan (my preference) or Taipei or Taiwan, China or Chineese Taiwan" as well as stating clearly that Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan or recognise it as a state. The second alternative reflects that I partly agree with you. Listing Ireland's "Institute for Investment and Trade" in Taipei might well add something to the article. However, it would have to be listed accurately and not in a misleading way. Otherwise, it should be left out. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 23:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE:After all of this discussion the position has not changed at all...I have quoted the Irish Government stating that Ireland:
User: Kransky does not dispute the authenticity of these quotes but insists that the Article should:
Like User: Kransky, I support "working constructively towards developing a consensus". I also think making sure the article is accurate is an absolute essential. After all, this is an encyclopedia. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 14:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Discussion continues here. - This is the relevant discussion page so it is not appropriate to move the discussion. I have tried to solicit the views of any interested Editors on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
The fact is, even though the Irish government doesn't have *official* diplomatic relations with the ROC, it does have unofficial relations with the ROC. The ROC is the political entity that the Irish government interacts with, even if the Irish government does not officially recognise it. If the Taiwanese residents want to have an Irish visa, that office in Taipei is where they go to get it. If Irish citizens need to have assistance while they are in Taiwan, that office is where they go to get the help. It is a de facto diplomatic mission. This practical piece of information is useful for people who read Wikipedia.
It is accurate for Wikipedia to list the office as a diplomatic mission while having a footnote saying something to the effect of "the Irish government does not have official relations with the ROC". It is important to note that the Irish government's official POV is not the only POV. We as editors need to balances all POVs.-- pyl ( talk) 15:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Recognition and diplomatic relations are not the same thing. To use an unrelated example, the United States recognizes the authority of the Castro-led government over Cuba, but does not have diplomatic relations with it. Are we supposed to remove all quasi-official representative offices? Inclusion is by no means inaccurate. In the case of Taiwan, it is common for governments to deny that their "trade offices" have any governmental status and yet staff these very same offices with diplomats. Hence, they are de facto diplomatic missions. Citizens of Ireland who show up at the PRC embassy applying for a visa to go to Taiwan are without exception turned away. Representation does not necessarily require diplomatic relations.-- Jiang ( talk) 16:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree that we should state that Ireland, and for that matter all countries, that have a representative office abroad or have one within should be recognized and included within the articles. Though Ireland and Taiwan may not have formal diplomatic relations, there is however informal ones that exist, and Taiwan does have a representative office in Dublin, and Ireland has one as well in Taipei. As previous members have mentioned above, when Irish citizens wish to visit Taiwan, they must seek their visa at the Taipei Representative Office in Ireland, and vis a versa. Aquintero ( talk) 15:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE: I have quoted the Irish Government stating that Ireland:
None of the participants dispute the authenticity of these quotes but insists that the Article should:
Other countries may be more ambiguous but Ireland is very clear. One Editor tried to draw a comparison with Cuba - The USA does not consider Cuba a 'Province of another country' etc, or consider another governement the legitimate government of Cuba. The comparison does not stack up. How can you advocate a total misstatment - saying that Ireland has a diplomatic mission to the RoC/Taiwan? If it is to be listed at all, it should be abundently clear to all readers that the position is not the same as with the countries listed on the article. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 00:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
P.S: It is important to note that the Irish government's official POV is not the only POV. That is wrong. The only PoV that counts here is Ireland's (i.e. the Irish government) - This is an article listing Ireland's diplomatic missions. The opinions of others persons or countries etc are not relevant to the List. Regards again. Redking7 ( talk) 00:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Everybody - please pay attention here.
Thank you all for coming to present your views, and generally keeping a civil tongue.
These articles are designed to illustrate how countries extend their influence overseas. They are not intended to make comment on the nature of these relations. Therefore I do not want these articles to be peppered with legalistic riders, or to fail to acknowledge the presence of these unofficial posts (it is interesting to see how non-recognising states call their offices in Taipei!).
user:RedKing7 claims it is inaccurate to list diplomatic missions by non-recognising states in this article. I maintain that these representative offices do - for all intents and purposes - perform the core functions of diplomatic missions (Article III of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations), and are staffed and managed - albeit at arms length - by the sending state's foreign ministry. I would ask that we define what goes in these articles according to what helps enhance the value of the information presented, as I have mentioned above.
user:RedKing7's stricter definition of what goes in is by no means unworthy of consideration. However he has said he is not interested in making the necessary changes to the other 160+ articles, to keep this rule consistent. If the rule is going to be enforced, it will need to be universally enforced.
On user:Jiang's idea of comments like "commonly known as Taiwan" and a disclaimer about a state's lack of diplomatic relations, I think we can consider tighter writing which delivers the same effect. I note however that I do not want these articles to be peppered with unnecessary riders (which I do not see in other Taiwan-related articles), and if we do choose to include disclaimers, that it will be universally enforced.
I am ambivalent about using flags, but I would seek that we treat all missions in Taiwan as we would for all other flags, to maintain consistency. It is not as if including these flags in Wikipedia has some kind of symbolic or legalistic meaning. And if we do choose to remove flags for missions in Taiwan, that this rule will be (altogether now) universally enforced.
I strongly suggest that we maintain and uphold the principle of self-identification, in which we refer to receiving states according to how they call themselves (although I note this rule is not as universally enforced as I would like it to be) Kransky ( talk) 08:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Re: [1]. It is not accurate to say that Ireland does not recognize Taiwan while it is accurate to say that Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Diplomatic recognition and diplomatic relations are not the same thing, see diplomatic recognition. The statement, "there are no inter-governmental contacts between the two sides" is deliberately misleading. There is contact between organizations that are officially not government agencies, but controlled, staffed, and funded by the government as if they were. So this is more complicated than the statement implies. It is common to do one thing and call it another. We have to explain the actual situation, not blindly follow the rhetoric of one side.-- Jiang ( talk) 12:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Redking7 quoted the Irish minister of foreign affairs as saying:
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 of 25 October 1971 recognised the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole representative of China. Although Taiwan continues to exercise autonomy and to term itself ‘The Republic of China’, this is not recognised in international law. Taiwan’s official status is that of a Province of China...Ireland recognises the Government of the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and there is no inter-Governmental contact between the two sides. A Taipei Representative Office, established in Dublin in 1988, has a representative function in relation to economic and cultural promotion, but no diplomatic or political status.
And Redking7 has been using that quote as a basis for claiming that Ireland considers Taiwan part of the PRC. However it is not uncommon for high-ranking diplomatic officials and even presidents of the UN to misstate official positions regarding Taiwan of the bodies they represent. What does Irish law have to say on the matter? Does it actually say it considers Taiwan part of China, or does it use the vaguer language used by many other countries such as the U.S. that "acknowledges" China's position but doesn't endorse it?
Readin (
talk)
03:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your views Pyl and Readin. Both are valid. The reason why I am strict on maintaining consistency is to avoid disputes over Palestine, Cyprus, Western Sahara and other matters which may surface on these pages by people with viewpoints specific to particular conflicts. This article concerns the representation of Ireland abroad, and not whether it recognises Taiwan or not.
Kransky (
talk)
06:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
RESPONSE, concerning:
Generally, at least User: Kransky is clear on his/her views - he/she appears to care little for accuracy but is concerned about consistency. His style of Editing gives "Internet Encyclopedias" the sort of reputation they have. Others appear to have a POV that means accuracy does not matter. It may well be that User: Kransky's canvassing will pay off and my views will be drowned out by those with a POV agenda. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 22:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
References
The article header says that Ireland recognizes the PRC as the legitimate government of Taiwan. Some countries have a carefully negotiated policy of ambiguity combined with a "one-China" policy in which they acknowledge the PRC's one-policy position and say they don't argue with it, but they don't actually accept it. It is not uncommon for diplomatic officials of these countries to goof up and misstate the policy. We need to have a written reference source for Ireland's policy as a reliable source. One statement by a diplomat isn't enough. Readin ( talk) 19:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
: [1]United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 of 25 October 1971 recognised the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole representative of China. Although Taiwan continues to exercise autonomy and to term itself ‘The Republic of China’, this is not recognised in international law. Taiwan’s official status is that of a Province of China...Ireland recognises the Government of the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and there is no inter-Governmental contact between the two sides. A Taipei Representative Office, established in Dublin in 1988, has a representative function in relation to economic and cultural promotion, but no diplomatic or political status.
The Taiwan office is a mission even if it isn't a "mission". The same source that says Taiwan isn't recognized by Ireland also explains the duties the Taiwan office perform - which are those of a mission. The fact that Ireland has decided to call it something else for diplomatic purposes does not change what it is.
Someone coming to this page may only be interested in the offices that Ireland formally lists as "missions". More likely, they are interested in information about how Ireland deals with external governments and places, and perhaps even practical knowledge about where one should go to get travel documents to specific places. Leaving out Taiwan is a serious omission. And for those who just want the official list, Taiwan is clearly marked in the article as not being a formal mission.
Kransky, at the moment there are three people saying leave the Taipei office in there, with only one objecting. For now, please leave it in as while we continue the discussion. Readin ( talk) 14:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - If this discussion is kicking off again, I would note once again the following quote from the Irish Government, which states that Ireland:
Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 01:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
References
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Should the Irish Government Secretariat in Belfast be added to this list? Although its not a consulate, it is a Irish DFA office that is similar to the other diplomatic missions here and included on their website here. Its listing here may include a link to the British–Irish Intergovernmental Conference presumably? ( The office's Twitter account for reference) -- Gimelthedog ( talk) 21:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)