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"Mark wrote his Gospel based on the preaching of Peter, as most New Testament scholars maintain."
No, they don't. That's the traditional view. "Most New Testament scholars" "maintain" nothing of the kind, since there is no good evidence for the assertion at all. Moreover, this assertion seems to play no role in the argument of the article. Why's it in there at all? 88.105.110.245 ( talk) 14:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
For note b, use J. E. L. Oulton, "Clement of Alexandria and the Didache," The Journal of Theological Studies, Vol. 41, No. 162 (April 1940), pp. 177-179. I am not yet familiar with the way to insert this; otherwise, I would do it myself. Pernimius ( talk) 04:02, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
The link at the bottom of the reference section entitled "Original Greek Text" which takes you to < http://www.geocities.com/baruchmar/EC/didachegraece.htm> is a corrupt text. There are words and entire phrases left out (e.g., Chapter X vs 2, "εγνωρισαν" is left out just before "ημιν δια Ιησου του παιδος σου."). The link to the "Original text" should be deleted. 67.185.195.72 ( talk) 20:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)JJA
From [1]:
The term apostle is applied by Paul not only to the Twelve, but also to himself, to Barnabas, to his kinsmen Andronicus and Junia, who had been converted before him, and to a class of preachers of the first rank. But apostles must have "seen the Lord" and have received a special call. There is no instance in the New Testament or in early Christian literature of the existence of an order called apostles later than the Apostolic age. We have no right to assume a second-century order of apostles, who had not seen Christ in the flesh, for the sake of bolstering up a preconceived notion of the date of the Didache.
The above seems to have a logical flaw. According to the Bible, Paul did not see Christ in the flesh (or if he did, only after the resurrection and ascension, in which case a similar experience could have been thought to occur to someone else at any time); yet, according to the above, he was classed as an apostle; so the logic that there is no reason to suspect that there were apostles who had not seen Christ in the flesh does not seem to have any validity. Comments?
Is this text source from somewhere else, by the way? "We have no right to..." does not seem quite the right tone for Wikipedia, and certainly suggests Original Research. TSP 18:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
It's from the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm
What's the reference for the dates in the intro? The reason I ask is that [2] gives an earlier date range. Pansy Brandybuck AKA Sophia Talk TCF 09:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The following quote and associated comment were replaced by a more recent assessment:
While I have nothing but the highest respect for BM, as I said in my comment things, have moved on in the last decade, as I'm sure BM would've been the first to delight in. I could also add the opinion of MW Holmes who thinks '... a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more probable.' (Holmes, 2007, The Apostolic Fathers in English, Baker Academic, p.159. Mercury543210 ( talk) 21:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
This is highly unlikely. The earliest provable date comes from a quote from Origen. It is likely to be late second century, and if my guess of Pantaneus as the author is correct, then it can be put squarely in the late second century. There is even some proto-Zeroastrian (ie proto-Manichean) theology in it. Without an author, or a carbon date that early; the didache proves nothing about first century christianity.-- 207.191.199.237 ( talk) 16:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching"— short for "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν)
Is this accurate? The translations I have read called it "Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles" or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" or ""Teaching of the Lord to the Nations". That title basically suggests that it is not for Jews. Care to discuss? Simonapro 15:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
I see a possible problem with the title "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles". It appears that this could suggest that the teaching is a special dispensation for only the Gentile convert and not for the Jewish covert. Does this make sense now? Simonapro 18:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
"The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles." Apostolic Fathers, 2nd ed, 1992, Holmes, ISBN 0801056764
As for the comment about this not being for Jews, it is obviously related to the Council of Jerusalem, which see for details. Short story: the Council of Jerusalem addressed the issue of what parts of the Mosaic Law were required of new gentile converts.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.20.61 ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 3 May 2006
Christianity started out as a 1st century Jewish sect ( Acts 3:1; 5:27–42; 21:18–26; 24:5; 24:14; 28:22) around the followers of Jesus Christ, including the apostles and elders and relatives of Jesus, and quickly expanded to include non-Jews, called Gentiles. As an eschatological movement, it anticipated Gentile interest in the God of Abraham, as for example prophesied in Isaiah 56:6–8, see also Great Commission. The question of what parts of the Mosaic Law apply to gentiles is still an open debate today. According to Judaism, it is the Noahide Law, see also Proselyte#In the Torah, Old_Testament#Christian_view_of_the_Law, Law and Gospel. 209.78.20.60 21:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe the document is post- Council of Jerusalem of 50 AD, at least 20 years after that around (c. 70–160 CE). The translations on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html don't seem to mention the word gentiles. Maybe it would be better to find an early or modern Catholic source which states that the english translation of the title of the Didache is "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles". I have been trying to find that all day but can't. Something tells me that the word gentiles is maybe a very modern interpretation that may twist the document to a gentile-only orientation to exclude Jews. Simonapro 22:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)]
Simonapro, I'm sorry, but I have to say that your objection is rather odd. Would you likewise object to Paul of Tarsus being called the Apostle to the Gentiles (εθνων αποστολος Romans 11:13 Romans 11:13)? 64.169.0.162 09:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I would object to that tag if it is used to mean that Paul only preached to gentiles. Act 17:10) . That is the same type of objection I currently have with the Didache title if it is used to mean that the Didache is only for the gentiles. The Didache should be for everybody. Paul also preached to everybody. Simonapro 15:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)]
Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not
Wikipedia:No original research
Wikipedia:Reliable sources 63.201.24.167 20:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
So would there be any objection to just calling it "Teaching of the Lord by the Twelve Apostles" Simonapro 22:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)]
I would conclude that your suggestion is a good one but the other way around fits better. To use the word nations with a footnote to gentiles. There are very few sources using the word gentiles in relation to the Didache title. See www.earlychristianwritings.com Simonapro 23:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)]
MonkeeSage, you may want to review the Didache section of earlychristianwritings.com again as Roberts uses the term nations. However this topic now seems secondary given that the primary title of the document is "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" and not the one containing ἔθνεσιν Simonapro 15:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)]
Yes but if you read on you will see that Wace (who only made a commentary, not a translation) makes reference to the document being called the "Teaching of the Apostles" by early writers. The fuller titles could be a later addition. I think that is expressed by the translators on earlychristianwritings.com who don't use the word gentiles in the title or even mention the second title fuller sometimes. BTW, Lightfoot's translation according to earlychristianwritings.com reads "The Didache or Teaching of the Apostles". Simonapro 10:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)]
I am using your source. On Page 121 Lightfoot calls the Diadache - "The Teaching of the Apostles" but says that the title on the Didache is called "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Simonapro 17:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)]
About the changes in reference to this topic. I don't actually believe the changes reflect what the facts here are suggesting. I think the largest supporting facts are being rejected. I believe (according to the facts above) that it should read:
The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) has the title "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". It is often called "The Teaching of the Apostles" by the early church fathers in their writings.
Then at the end of Twelve Apostles" have a reference like this -> There is a second fuller title under the primary title that reads (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν) — which has been translated as "The teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the twelve apostles" or "The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles". Simonapro 10:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
Wikipedia:Reliable sources. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html All translators are overwhelmingly in favour of the title "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Please show a translator who says otherwise. You do not have a translator who uses that title alone. One commentary mentions it as a fuller title. Not the full title (<- That is your own Original Research).
Again nowhere does anyone assert that the title of the Didache is "The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles” and if they do they make sure to cover the heading on the document "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". <-- This is the title. The document has this heading that should preceed any other, period. Anyway, the translations are on-line, so now readers can see that for themselves. I have linked to those translations. That fact is that the majority of translators have used the title "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Early church fathers even called it "The Teaching of the Apostles". If people want to discover other translations within the document after the heading then they can do so through the translations on the link. Simonapro 13:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
We could ask for a WP:RFCU on that IP because this could be trying to avoid a 3RR. Basically that revert to a position has been proven incorrect. Read the discussion before reverting. On Page 121 Lightfoot calls the Diadache - "The Teaching of the Apostles" but says that the title on the Didache is called "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". So the self proclaimed primary cite is wrong and also excludes all interests in the source material above. Simonapro 17:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)]
You have edited without discussion which was requested of you and is wiki policy - WP:GF. You claim of POV is refuted by Page 121 Lightfoot calls the Diadache - "The Teaching of the Apostles" but says that the title on the Didache is called "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Nobody said that The Apostolic Fathers was wrong. It is right but your cite is in error. You where asked to discuss before you edit. Please discuss before you revert again. Your POV claim is wrong and your cite is being use incorrectly. Simonapro 19:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
The Apostolic Fathers ISBN: 0766164985 - Kessinger Publishing that states in the opening passage for the chapter on the Didache "It is called 'The Teaching of the Apostles' or 'The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles'". This heading appears on Lightfoot's translations also. See http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0766164985&id=MvHBcK9OsWUC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&sig=xSmq63Ym83JamkOqaXA_Hk8Z9do&hl=en Even Lightfoot's translation starts with that title. Using The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles, is contrary to every single translation of the document header out there. Simonapro 19:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
I know about the 3RR because I mentioned it above. You are actually citing "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations". Granted I should have noted that you are using a modern book with a similar title of the popular traditional book source book "The Apostolic Fathers" by by J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer. However citing your one book alone has:
Which means your suggestion is a clear historical revision of a Christian document. It simply never had the title you are putting forth as the title. That is changing things. You can't just ignore the historical record in favor of one new age book. Simonapro 19:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
Your citation contradicts "The Apostolic Fathers" by by J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer. What sources are "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations" using for the Didache translation? The title of the Didache is "'The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles'". That is on the heading of the Didache. Within the body of text may be other titles but that is #1. Your revert makes this header #2 and that is distorting the document's title. Your POV to use "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations" translation of a text in the body of the document as the title is contradicted by 4/7 translations on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html The remaining 3 do not use your proposed title at all. So it is not found in any translation on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html. It is only found in a commentary and your new book that contradicts the historical record on this matter. It is a historical revision. Simonapro 19:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
The only thing you have said there that directly contradicts the historical record (which the current article does right now because of your edit) is the :2nd edition, The Apostolic Fathers, Holmes, page 246 citation you are fronting which is not even a translation but a commentary. Everything else in the historical record has given the #1 heading as "The teaching of the twelve apostles" not "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" which is clearly false and a direct manipulation of the document heading. The body of text, not the heading, containing "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" is a debatable translation that could also be "The Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles". To front your version as a heading and as the proper translation is a modern new age distortion of the historical record. There is no two ways about this. You can't ignore that "The teaching of the twelve apostles" is the heading on the document used by 4/7 translators. None of the translators used your version of the body of text either and certainly not as the title. None of them. Simonapro 23:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
As it reads now on Didache, it is a big mash of stuff and a text with translation bias. It is not clear. My edit is clear AND allowed people to view the translations for themselves. The new edit has censored all that.
WP:NOR States that any new interpretation is a violation of WP:NOR including editors' personal views. This means you can't ignore that the commentary ALSO says the the document heading is "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". The current article does that and so violated WP:NOR Simonapro 12:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Between IP reverts and unsigned comments I have no idea who is who or what is what. To address that last comment who I believe is fron Andrew c .
Simonapro 17:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Sounds reasonable Andrew. If you check the current entry, it contains this information, but perhaps it could be presented in a more understandable form:
The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching" — short for "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles"[ref]The Apostolic Fathers, Lightfoot-Harmer-Holmes, 2nd ed., 1992, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, ISBN 0801056764; Roberts-Donaldson translate the title as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations". See also Strong's G1484[/ref] (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν), commonly called "The Teaching of the (Twelve) Apostles"
209.78.18.54 19:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The image says: Διδαχὴ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν translated into English as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles." -Holmes. 209.78.18.54 19:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Another Greek reference: [12] "ΔΙΔΑΧΗ ΤΩΝ ΔΩΔΕΚΑ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν."
Let's show the title list so that everyone can see it.
In fact that is how I proposed it be shown by means of the link to the translations so that people could see for themselves instead of fronting the title "Teaching of the Lord by the Twelve Apostles to the Gentiles". As you can see none of those 7 used gentiles in the title and 3 used Nations in the title. Simonapro 19:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
We have commentary on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html from Wace that says pretty much the same thing. So it was included in my edit but under Wace, not Holmes.
Simonapro 20:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Because there are many cites on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html including the Wace commentary reference that includes what Holmes stated. So instead of just one cite, we did have over 20 before they where removed. Simonapro 20:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Because it is not the header on the Didache document. When I made the edit I just used the header. Since "Teaching of the Lord by the Twelve Apostles to the Gentiles" isn't the header it was removed as the header. "The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching" — short for "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" is a POV. The Didache does not state that the header is short for that line in the body of text. Simonapro 21:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
As this topic seems not to have been revisited for well over a decade, I thought of letting sleeping dogs lie, but as the article didn't answer the question I had, I'm not going to.
I think this debate would profit from the etymological explanation of the word 'gentile' given on the wikipedia page gentile, from gentilis – of or belonging to the same people or nation, from gens – people. It's cognate with gentleman and gentle, via "high-born".
I would prefer to see ἔθνεσιν, ethnesin, rendered as 'peoples', but then that would lose its understood meaning as other-peoples-not-Jewish-people, which is perhaps what some of the contention here is about: does this title mean (ie, was the intention of the redactor(s)) that these are teachings for (all) peoples, or that Jews are exempt, or don't need teaching it, or have a different set of teachings etc.? Hard to tell. And as it stands, it could have meant different things to different readers of it! Nick Barnett ( talk) 12:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Here is a proposed solution. Keep in mind the theme of my solution is "use both". Also, I think we should take all this controversy out of the opening line, and make a new section on the title.
...
-- Andrew c 21:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Great idea, I like it. 209.78.18.54 21:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
That is much better Simonapro 22:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Seems reasonable. Another Greek text is here: [13], but it's in the external links section already. Is it useful to link to the Strong's for Didache: [14]? Just so people don't think it's some sort of technical word or non-biblical? 63.201.26.180 01:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
"I have no real problem with the proposal, except that it seems to go backwards in flow of thought from the shorter colloquial title to the longer formal title, which seems counter-intuitive (as the shoter title is just that, a shortening of the longer title)." - MonkeeSage.
I think that the article could be improved if a section is included which explains in greater detail why it was rejected from biblical canon. LukeSurl 00:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I can't find anywhere that says why it was rejected- I don't see why it was- Anonymous User May 6, 2007 10:07
I do not know how to pronounce Didache. It would be most helpful to provide this tidbit. (The same applies to names of people referred to.) Thanks so much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.135.238 ( talk) 00:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the dating nonsense as it was of the early point of view and thus has been used in this article and others to push those "tag-along" arguments. There is simply no way of knowing its date. It's anywhere from AD 70 to 3rd Century, period. Sky 20:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Sky
Tagged it. This is unreferenced POV pushing that tries to make excuses for the scholarly consensus being other than what the editor wishes it were. Unreferenced because even though Harvard-style citations are given, there are no bibliographic entries to which they refer; we thus cannot verify any of it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
There were two totally self-published, totally non-scholarly web sites being used alongside Metzger. This is crazy. We have a reliable source that gives us a majority view, let's just state it. The older references don't contradict Metzger. No one cares which self-published web sites contradict Metzger. We state Metzger's opinion as the WP opinion. Easy. I predict opposition from people who prefer self-published web sites that agree with them to reliable sources that don't. This is a policy issue. If someone reverts back up the self-published web sites, that's a violation of policy, not just guideline. Leadwind ( talk) 02:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
All the New Testament examples show all baptisms as being immediate, and never put off. The best case example is the midnight baptism of the Philippian Jailer, below:
From Acts 16:22 through 16:34 is the entire account, but we only need to see the immediacy of biblical baptism:
Acts 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. All ten conversions in the bible culminate with immediate baptism.
1. Acts 2.37-38 The very first Christians ever 2. Acts 8:12 Samaritans are converted 3. Acts 8:13 Simon Magus the magician is converted 4. Acts 8:35-39 Eunuch is converted 5. Acts 10:44-48 Centurion Cornelius is converted 6. Acts 16:14-15 Lydia, the 1st European is converted 7. Acts 16:22-34 The Philippian jailer's story of conversion 8. Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the Jews is converted 9. Acts 19:1-5 One Ephesian church is started with 12 men being converted 10.Acts 22:16 Apostle Paul's conversion by calling on the name of the Lord Eschoir ( talk) 05:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I have read both these works in substance and I have found that the Didache is somewhat comparable to the Book of Enoch in that both have had a semi-official character in the Church, and that both contain similar moral instructions against abortion and birth control. It would be interesting if any of the scholars around here coudld dig deeper into these comparisons. ADM ( talk) 06:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Didache 10 doesn't even use the word "Christ," which appears only one other time in the whole tract.
First it says it "does't even use", then continues on to say it actually does. I think a change in wording(and tone) is necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.16.191 ( talk) 18:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The article says that the Didaché didn't mention the resurrection of Jesus. I think it's a way to deceive, because Didachè is about catechism. It doesnt' want to tell the history of Jesus. A lot of new testament textes doesn't mention the resurrection, beacause they are about different argouments and the resurrection of Jesus is evidently implicit. In addition, the writer's of didaché firmly believe in resurrection of the dead: And then shall the signs of the truth appear; first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly a resurrection of the dead (Didaché 16:6). My english is awful, can a good english speaker correct the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.250.48.243 ( talk) 13:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed that section, per your suggestion. Jorge Peixoto ( talk) 21:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that the article should add that some author have underline the absence of an explicit referement to the resurrection of Jesus, but that is a distorted analisys of the text, because it isn't a gospel but a catechism. -- 95.250.48.243 ( talk) 16:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
It's difficult for me to explain it in english, but for christians the basis for the believing in the resurrection of the dead is the resurrection of Jesus. Believing in the resurrection of the dead and not believing in the resurrection of Jesus is like believe that a person can run but can't walk. You can read it clearly in verses like And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[a] his Spirit who lives in you (Rm 8.11). So didache makes implicit mention of the resurrection of Jesus. --
95.250.48.243 (
talk) 19:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Personally I find it really interesting that Jesus' sacrificial death is not associated with the bread and wine and his resurrection gets downplayed, but who cares what I think? The sources I read don't mention the resurrection angle that gets its own section here. I like Wade, but he doesn't represent scholarship on this issue. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 01:23, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
For some reason the Didache's exposition concerning the Eucharist as a sacrifice (Didache, 14) is omitted in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.173.75 ( talk) 06:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
In a related note, there's also no exposition about the Eucharist text not having the words of institution. (Is there a resource that talks about that?) I don't know how important that is, but it is an indicator that the communities which used it may not have done Communion like most of the church today does it. Washi ( talk) 21:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
The external link to sitzimleben.com/ is dead, error 500, because the domain is expired. Awikiuserperson ( talk) 20:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
The article refers to a Latin version without any prior discussion of different language versions. Is it possible to add a section explaining in which language versions the Didache has come down to us? ( Marklinklaters ( talk) 07:22, 11 April 2012 (UTC)).
Why is it that we only cite Robinson for the dating of the document? His dating isn't taken seriously by anyone in the field with actual credentials; his 'scholarship' is actually something of a laughing stock. I see that an earlier version of the article gave a broad range, but someone deleted that and emphasized Robinson (likely due to their personal religious beliefs, but that's not for me to say). It's not that we can't cite him. But we should cite actual authorities, and put into context that his claims aren't really taken seriously. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.185.154.10 ( talk) 18:22, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
This looks to me like a translation/ESL issue: does the writer possibly mean "heterodox"?
I can't see how bastardy or unmarried parentage has anything to do with the credibility of early writers or preachers' historical pronouncements (or later ones, for that matter...) 50.245.61.157 ( talk) 11:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I added everything I could find from every source I have. This document is pretty interesting. I think some material could be summarized better. I did not add the bit about scholars doubting that the Last Supper is historical, which one source covers in relation to the Didache, but I thought people probably wouldn't like that. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 01:11, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
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Here's the original conversation: [21]
Wade is not an expert on this topic, and his conclusion doesn't appear in tertiary sources, so it's undue weight to include it. Like Wade, I see the Didache as good evidence that Christians are wrong about Jesus, but this point is not worth including. I trust that the this edit is one that Christian and atheist editors can agree on. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 14:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
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Para 1 introduces an extended quotation from Eusebius that is the 2nd paragraph.
Concerning the 3rd paragraph of this section: either
Case 1 would require improved quotation and 1 citation for the paragraph.
Case 2 would require a citation for each fact (or opinion.)
Although I guess the answer is case 1, I'm changing the complaint from {{citation needed}}
to {{Refimprove section}}
just to call out the fact that most of the facts in this section are not cited as they should be.
Note: I added the [c]
footnote to cast some light on the "Gesta apud Zenophilum" reference. When I discovered that the word "Didache" -- even the fragment "dida" -- does not occur in GaZ, I realized the degree of sophistication required to come to this statement in para 3:
It became clear how "unoriginal" this section must be.
And somewhere in the process, that last phrase should be resolved: did both Optatus and his GaZ use the Didache? Or did Optatus use the Didache in his GaZ?
77th Trombone ( talk) 04:45, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
We have:
{{
Christianity}}
{{
Canon law}}
{{
Jewish Christianity}}
I think this is too much navigation. Comments?
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 18:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC).
Imagine a Jewish sect which becomes somewhat isolated. In 1975, they write a work of this character. However, they don't mention the Holocaust. Not directly. Not indirectly. Nothing. Crazy, right?
Okay, so please explain how a group of Jews living any time between the destruction of the second Temple and the Bar Kochba revolt (CE 130) would form a document of this nature with no mention of Holy Temple? What is all the more problematic is that the document condemns the practices of "hypocrites"--other groups, which align tightly with known practices of some Jewish groups. The destruction of the second Temple was more cataclysmic in its day than the Holocaust was 70 years ago. It beggars the imagination to suggest that a religious group in any competitive contact with the bulk of the Jewish people at the time wouldn't view the destruction as worthy of mention in any context.
NathanZook ( talk) 03:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
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"Mark wrote his Gospel based on the preaching of Peter, as most New Testament scholars maintain."
No, they don't. That's the traditional view. "Most New Testament scholars" "maintain" nothing of the kind, since there is no good evidence for the assertion at all. Moreover, this assertion seems to play no role in the argument of the article. Why's it in there at all? 88.105.110.245 ( talk) 14:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
For note b, use J. E. L. Oulton, "Clement of Alexandria and the Didache," The Journal of Theological Studies, Vol. 41, No. 162 (April 1940), pp. 177-179. I am not yet familiar with the way to insert this; otherwise, I would do it myself. Pernimius ( talk) 04:02, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
The link at the bottom of the reference section entitled "Original Greek Text" which takes you to < http://www.geocities.com/baruchmar/EC/didachegraece.htm> is a corrupt text. There are words and entire phrases left out (e.g., Chapter X vs 2, "εγνωρισαν" is left out just before "ημιν δια Ιησου του παιδος σου."). The link to the "Original text" should be deleted. 67.185.195.72 ( talk) 20:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)JJA
From [1]:
The term apostle is applied by Paul not only to the Twelve, but also to himself, to Barnabas, to his kinsmen Andronicus and Junia, who had been converted before him, and to a class of preachers of the first rank. But apostles must have "seen the Lord" and have received a special call. There is no instance in the New Testament or in early Christian literature of the existence of an order called apostles later than the Apostolic age. We have no right to assume a second-century order of apostles, who had not seen Christ in the flesh, for the sake of bolstering up a preconceived notion of the date of the Didache.
The above seems to have a logical flaw. According to the Bible, Paul did not see Christ in the flesh (or if he did, only after the resurrection and ascension, in which case a similar experience could have been thought to occur to someone else at any time); yet, according to the above, he was classed as an apostle; so the logic that there is no reason to suspect that there were apostles who had not seen Christ in the flesh does not seem to have any validity. Comments?
Is this text source from somewhere else, by the way? "We have no right to..." does not seem quite the right tone for Wikipedia, and certainly suggests Original Research. TSP 18:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
It's from the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm
What's the reference for the dates in the intro? The reason I ask is that [2] gives an earlier date range. Pansy Brandybuck AKA Sophia Talk TCF 09:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The following quote and associated comment were replaced by a more recent assessment:
While I have nothing but the highest respect for BM, as I said in my comment things, have moved on in the last decade, as I'm sure BM would've been the first to delight in. I could also add the opinion of MW Holmes who thinks '... a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more probable.' (Holmes, 2007, The Apostolic Fathers in English, Baker Academic, p.159. Mercury543210 ( talk) 21:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
This is highly unlikely. The earliest provable date comes from a quote from Origen. It is likely to be late second century, and if my guess of Pantaneus as the author is correct, then it can be put squarely in the late second century. There is even some proto-Zeroastrian (ie proto-Manichean) theology in it. Without an author, or a carbon date that early; the didache proves nothing about first century christianity.-- 207.191.199.237 ( talk) 16:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching"— short for "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν)
Is this accurate? The translations I have read called it "Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles" or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" or ""Teaching of the Lord to the Nations". That title basically suggests that it is not for Jews. Care to discuss? Simonapro 15:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
I see a possible problem with the title "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles". It appears that this could suggest that the teaching is a special dispensation for only the Gentile convert and not for the Jewish covert. Does this make sense now? Simonapro 18:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
"The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles." Apostolic Fathers, 2nd ed, 1992, Holmes, ISBN 0801056764
As for the comment about this not being for Jews, it is obviously related to the Council of Jerusalem, which see for details. Short story: the Council of Jerusalem addressed the issue of what parts of the Mosaic Law were required of new gentile converts.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.20.61 ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 3 May 2006
Christianity started out as a 1st century Jewish sect ( Acts 3:1; 5:27–42; 21:18–26; 24:5; 24:14; 28:22) around the followers of Jesus Christ, including the apostles and elders and relatives of Jesus, and quickly expanded to include non-Jews, called Gentiles. As an eschatological movement, it anticipated Gentile interest in the God of Abraham, as for example prophesied in Isaiah 56:6–8, see also Great Commission. The question of what parts of the Mosaic Law apply to gentiles is still an open debate today. According to Judaism, it is the Noahide Law, see also Proselyte#In the Torah, Old_Testament#Christian_view_of_the_Law, Law and Gospel. 209.78.20.60 21:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe the document is post- Council of Jerusalem of 50 AD, at least 20 years after that around (c. 70–160 CE). The translations on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html don't seem to mention the word gentiles. Maybe it would be better to find an early or modern Catholic source which states that the english translation of the title of the Didache is "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles". I have been trying to find that all day but can't. Something tells me that the word gentiles is maybe a very modern interpretation that may twist the document to a gentile-only orientation to exclude Jews. Simonapro 22:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)]
Simonapro, I'm sorry, but I have to say that your objection is rather odd. Would you likewise object to Paul of Tarsus being called the Apostle to the Gentiles (εθνων αποστολος Romans 11:13 Romans 11:13)? 64.169.0.162 09:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I would object to that tag if it is used to mean that Paul only preached to gentiles. Act 17:10) . That is the same type of objection I currently have with the Didache title if it is used to mean that the Didache is only for the gentiles. The Didache should be for everybody. Paul also preached to everybody. Simonapro 15:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)]
Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not
Wikipedia:No original research
Wikipedia:Reliable sources 63.201.24.167 20:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
So would there be any objection to just calling it "Teaching of the Lord by the Twelve Apostles" Simonapro 22:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)]
I would conclude that your suggestion is a good one but the other way around fits better. To use the word nations with a footnote to gentiles. There are very few sources using the word gentiles in relation to the Didache title. See www.earlychristianwritings.com Simonapro 23:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)]
MonkeeSage, you may want to review the Didache section of earlychristianwritings.com again as Roberts uses the term nations. However this topic now seems secondary given that the primary title of the document is "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" and not the one containing ἔθνεσιν Simonapro 15:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)]
Yes but if you read on you will see that Wace (who only made a commentary, not a translation) makes reference to the document being called the "Teaching of the Apostles" by early writers. The fuller titles could be a later addition. I think that is expressed by the translators on earlychristianwritings.com who don't use the word gentiles in the title or even mention the second title fuller sometimes. BTW, Lightfoot's translation according to earlychristianwritings.com reads "The Didache or Teaching of the Apostles". Simonapro 10:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)]
I am using your source. On Page 121 Lightfoot calls the Diadache - "The Teaching of the Apostles" but says that the title on the Didache is called "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Simonapro 17:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)]
About the changes in reference to this topic. I don't actually believe the changes reflect what the facts here are suggesting. I think the largest supporting facts are being rejected. I believe (according to the facts above) that it should read:
The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) has the title "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". It is often called "The Teaching of the Apostles" by the early church fathers in their writings.
Then at the end of Twelve Apostles" have a reference like this -> There is a second fuller title under the primary title that reads (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν) — which has been translated as "The teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the twelve apostles" or "The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles". Simonapro 10:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
Wikipedia:Reliable sources. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html All translators are overwhelmingly in favour of the title "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Please show a translator who says otherwise. You do not have a translator who uses that title alone. One commentary mentions it as a fuller title. Not the full title (<- That is your own Original Research).
Again nowhere does anyone assert that the title of the Didache is "The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles” and if they do they make sure to cover the heading on the document "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". <-- This is the title. The document has this heading that should preceed any other, period. Anyway, the translations are on-line, so now readers can see that for themselves. I have linked to those translations. That fact is that the majority of translators have used the title "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Early church fathers even called it "The Teaching of the Apostles". If people want to discover other translations within the document after the heading then they can do so through the translations on the link. Simonapro 13:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
We could ask for a WP:RFCU on that IP because this could be trying to avoid a 3RR. Basically that revert to a position has been proven incorrect. Read the discussion before reverting. On Page 121 Lightfoot calls the Diadache - "The Teaching of the Apostles" but says that the title on the Didache is called "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". So the self proclaimed primary cite is wrong and also excludes all interests in the source material above. Simonapro 17:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)]
You have edited without discussion which was requested of you and is wiki policy - WP:GF. You claim of POV is refuted by Page 121 Lightfoot calls the Diadache - "The Teaching of the Apostles" but says that the title on the Didache is called "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". Nobody said that The Apostolic Fathers was wrong. It is right but your cite is in error. You where asked to discuss before you edit. Please discuss before you revert again. Your POV claim is wrong and your cite is being use incorrectly. Simonapro 19:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
The Apostolic Fathers ISBN: 0766164985 - Kessinger Publishing that states in the opening passage for the chapter on the Didache "It is called 'The Teaching of the Apostles' or 'The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles'". This heading appears on Lightfoot's translations also. See http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0766164985&id=MvHBcK9OsWUC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&sig=xSmq63Ym83JamkOqaXA_Hk8Z9do&hl=en Even Lightfoot's translation starts with that title. Using The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles, is contrary to every single translation of the document header out there. Simonapro 19:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
I know about the 3RR because I mentioned it above. You are actually citing "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations". Granted I should have noted that you are using a modern book with a similar title of the popular traditional book source book "The Apostolic Fathers" by by J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer. However citing your one book alone has:
Which means your suggestion is a clear historical revision of a Christian document. It simply never had the title you are putting forth as the title. That is changing things. You can't just ignore the historical record in favor of one new age book. Simonapro 19:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
Your citation contradicts "The Apostolic Fathers" by by J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer. What sources are "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations" using for the Didache translation? The title of the Didache is "'The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles'". That is on the heading of the Didache. Within the body of text may be other titles but that is #1. Your revert makes this header #2 and that is distorting the document's title. Your POV to use "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations" translation of a text in the body of the document as the title is contradicted by 4/7 translations on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html The remaining 3 do not use your proposed title at all. So it is not found in any translation on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html. It is only found in a commentary and your new book that contradicts the historical record on this matter. It is a historical revision. Simonapro 19:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
The only thing you have said there that directly contradicts the historical record (which the current article does right now because of your edit) is the :2nd edition, The Apostolic Fathers, Holmes, page 246 citation you are fronting which is not even a translation but a commentary. Everything else in the historical record has given the #1 heading as "The teaching of the twelve apostles" not "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" which is clearly false and a direct manipulation of the document heading. The body of text, not the heading, containing "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" is a debatable translation that could also be "The Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles". To front your version as a heading and as the proper translation is a modern new age distortion of the historical record. There is no two ways about this. You can't ignore that "The teaching of the twelve apostles" is the heading on the document used by 4/7 translators. None of the translators used your version of the body of text either and certainly not as the title. None of them. Simonapro 23:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)]
As it reads now on Didache, it is a big mash of stuff and a text with translation bias. It is not clear. My edit is clear AND allowed people to view the translations for themselves. The new edit has censored all that.
WP:NOR States that any new interpretation is a violation of WP:NOR including editors' personal views. This means you can't ignore that the commentary ALSO says the the document heading is "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". The current article does that and so violated WP:NOR Simonapro 12:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Between IP reverts and unsigned comments I have no idea who is who or what is what. To address that last comment who I believe is fron Andrew c .
Simonapro 17:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Sounds reasonable Andrew. If you check the current entry, it contains this information, but perhaps it could be presented in a more understandable form:
The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching" — short for "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles"[ref]The Apostolic Fathers, Lightfoot-Harmer-Holmes, 2nd ed., 1992, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, ISBN 0801056764; Roberts-Donaldson translate the title as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations". See also Strong's G1484[/ref] (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν), commonly called "The Teaching of the (Twelve) Apostles"
209.78.18.54 19:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The image says: Διδαχὴ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν translated into English as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles." -Holmes. 209.78.18.54 19:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Another Greek reference: [12] "ΔΙΔΑΧΗ ΤΩΝ ΔΩΔΕΚΑ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν."
Let's show the title list so that everyone can see it.
In fact that is how I proposed it be shown by means of the link to the translations so that people could see for themselves instead of fronting the title "Teaching of the Lord by the Twelve Apostles to the Gentiles". As you can see none of those 7 used gentiles in the title and 3 used Nations in the title. Simonapro 19:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
We have commentary on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html from Wace that says pretty much the same thing. So it was included in my edit but under Wace, not Holmes.
Simonapro 20:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Because there are many cites on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html including the Wace commentary reference that includes what Holmes stated. So instead of just one cite, we did have over 20 before they where removed. Simonapro 20:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Because it is not the header on the Didache document. When I made the edit I just used the header. Since "Teaching of the Lord by the Twelve Apostles to the Gentiles" isn't the header it was removed as the header. "The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching" — short for "The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" is a POV. The Didache does not state that the header is short for that line in the body of text. Simonapro 21:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
As this topic seems not to have been revisited for well over a decade, I thought of letting sleeping dogs lie, but as the article didn't answer the question I had, I'm not going to.
I think this debate would profit from the etymological explanation of the word 'gentile' given on the wikipedia page gentile, from gentilis – of or belonging to the same people or nation, from gens – people. It's cognate with gentleman and gentle, via "high-born".
I would prefer to see ἔθνεσιν, ethnesin, rendered as 'peoples', but then that would lose its understood meaning as other-peoples-not-Jewish-people, which is perhaps what some of the contention here is about: does this title mean (ie, was the intention of the redactor(s)) that these are teachings for (all) peoples, or that Jews are exempt, or don't need teaching it, or have a different set of teachings etc.? Hard to tell. And as it stands, it could have meant different things to different readers of it! Nick Barnett ( talk) 12:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Here is a proposed solution. Keep in mind the theme of my solution is "use both". Also, I think we should take all this controversy out of the opening line, and make a new section on the title.
...
-- Andrew c 21:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Great idea, I like it. 209.78.18.54 21:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
That is much better Simonapro 22:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)]
Seems reasonable. Another Greek text is here: [13], but it's in the external links section already. Is it useful to link to the Strong's for Didache: [14]? Just so people don't think it's some sort of technical word or non-biblical? 63.201.26.180 01:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
"I have no real problem with the proposal, except that it seems to go backwards in flow of thought from the shorter colloquial title to the longer formal title, which seems counter-intuitive (as the shoter title is just that, a shortening of the longer title)." - MonkeeSage.
I think that the article could be improved if a section is included which explains in greater detail why it was rejected from biblical canon. LukeSurl 00:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I can't find anywhere that says why it was rejected- I don't see why it was- Anonymous User May 6, 2007 10:07
I do not know how to pronounce Didache. It would be most helpful to provide this tidbit. (The same applies to names of people referred to.) Thanks so much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.135.238 ( talk) 00:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the dating nonsense as it was of the early point of view and thus has been used in this article and others to push those "tag-along" arguments. There is simply no way of knowing its date. It's anywhere from AD 70 to 3rd Century, period. Sky 20:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Sky
Tagged it. This is unreferenced POV pushing that tries to make excuses for the scholarly consensus being other than what the editor wishes it were. Unreferenced because even though Harvard-style citations are given, there are no bibliographic entries to which they refer; we thus cannot verify any of it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
There were two totally self-published, totally non-scholarly web sites being used alongside Metzger. This is crazy. We have a reliable source that gives us a majority view, let's just state it. The older references don't contradict Metzger. No one cares which self-published web sites contradict Metzger. We state Metzger's opinion as the WP opinion. Easy. I predict opposition from people who prefer self-published web sites that agree with them to reliable sources that don't. This is a policy issue. If someone reverts back up the self-published web sites, that's a violation of policy, not just guideline. Leadwind ( talk) 02:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
All the New Testament examples show all baptisms as being immediate, and never put off. The best case example is the midnight baptism of the Philippian Jailer, below:
From Acts 16:22 through 16:34 is the entire account, but we only need to see the immediacy of biblical baptism:
Acts 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. All ten conversions in the bible culminate with immediate baptism.
1. Acts 2.37-38 The very first Christians ever 2. Acts 8:12 Samaritans are converted 3. Acts 8:13 Simon Magus the magician is converted 4. Acts 8:35-39 Eunuch is converted 5. Acts 10:44-48 Centurion Cornelius is converted 6. Acts 16:14-15 Lydia, the 1st European is converted 7. Acts 16:22-34 The Philippian jailer's story of conversion 8. Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the Jews is converted 9. Acts 19:1-5 One Ephesian church is started with 12 men being converted 10.Acts 22:16 Apostle Paul's conversion by calling on the name of the Lord Eschoir ( talk) 05:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I have read both these works in substance and I have found that the Didache is somewhat comparable to the Book of Enoch in that both have had a semi-official character in the Church, and that both contain similar moral instructions against abortion and birth control. It would be interesting if any of the scholars around here coudld dig deeper into these comparisons. ADM ( talk) 06:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Didache 10 doesn't even use the word "Christ," which appears only one other time in the whole tract.
First it says it "does't even use", then continues on to say it actually does. I think a change in wording(and tone) is necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.16.191 ( talk) 18:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The article says that the Didaché didn't mention the resurrection of Jesus. I think it's a way to deceive, because Didachè is about catechism. It doesnt' want to tell the history of Jesus. A lot of new testament textes doesn't mention the resurrection, beacause they are about different argouments and the resurrection of Jesus is evidently implicit. In addition, the writer's of didaché firmly believe in resurrection of the dead: And then shall the signs of the truth appear; first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly a resurrection of the dead (Didaché 16:6). My english is awful, can a good english speaker correct the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.250.48.243 ( talk) 13:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed that section, per your suggestion. Jorge Peixoto ( talk) 21:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that the article should add that some author have underline the absence of an explicit referement to the resurrection of Jesus, but that is a distorted analisys of the text, because it isn't a gospel but a catechism. -- 95.250.48.243 ( talk) 16:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
It's difficult for me to explain it in english, but for christians the basis for the believing in the resurrection of the dead is the resurrection of Jesus. Believing in the resurrection of the dead and not believing in the resurrection of Jesus is like believe that a person can run but can't walk. You can read it clearly in verses like And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[a] his Spirit who lives in you (Rm 8.11). So didache makes implicit mention of the resurrection of Jesus. --
95.250.48.243 (
talk) 19:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Personally I find it really interesting that Jesus' sacrificial death is not associated with the bread and wine and his resurrection gets downplayed, but who cares what I think? The sources I read don't mention the resurrection angle that gets its own section here. I like Wade, but he doesn't represent scholarship on this issue. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 01:23, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
For some reason the Didache's exposition concerning the Eucharist as a sacrifice (Didache, 14) is omitted in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.173.75 ( talk) 06:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
In a related note, there's also no exposition about the Eucharist text not having the words of institution. (Is there a resource that talks about that?) I don't know how important that is, but it is an indicator that the communities which used it may not have done Communion like most of the church today does it. Washi ( talk) 21:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
The external link to sitzimleben.com/ is dead, error 500, because the domain is expired. Awikiuserperson ( talk) 20:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
The article refers to a Latin version without any prior discussion of different language versions. Is it possible to add a section explaining in which language versions the Didache has come down to us? ( Marklinklaters ( talk) 07:22, 11 April 2012 (UTC)).
Why is it that we only cite Robinson for the dating of the document? His dating isn't taken seriously by anyone in the field with actual credentials; his 'scholarship' is actually something of a laughing stock. I see that an earlier version of the article gave a broad range, but someone deleted that and emphasized Robinson (likely due to their personal religious beliefs, but that's not for me to say). It's not that we can't cite him. But we should cite actual authorities, and put into context that his claims aren't really taken seriously. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.185.154.10 ( talk) 18:22, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
This looks to me like a translation/ESL issue: does the writer possibly mean "heterodox"?
I can't see how bastardy or unmarried parentage has anything to do with the credibility of early writers or preachers' historical pronouncements (or later ones, for that matter...) 50.245.61.157 ( talk) 11:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I added everything I could find from every source I have. This document is pretty interesting. I think some material could be summarized better. I did not add the bit about scholars doubting that the Last Supper is historical, which one source covers in relation to the Didache, but I thought people probably wouldn't like that. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 01:11, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
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Here's the original conversation: [21]
Wade is not an expert on this topic, and his conclusion doesn't appear in tertiary sources, so it's undue weight to include it. Like Wade, I see the Didache as good evidence that Christians are wrong about Jesus, but this point is not worth including. I trust that the this edit is one that Christian and atheist editors can agree on. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 14:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
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Para 1 introduces an extended quotation from Eusebius that is the 2nd paragraph.
Concerning the 3rd paragraph of this section: either
Case 1 would require improved quotation and 1 citation for the paragraph.
Case 2 would require a citation for each fact (or opinion.)
Although I guess the answer is case 1, I'm changing the complaint from {{citation needed}}
to {{Refimprove section}}
just to call out the fact that most of the facts in this section are not cited as they should be.
Note: I added the [c]
footnote to cast some light on the "Gesta apud Zenophilum" reference. When I discovered that the word "Didache" -- even the fragment "dida" -- does not occur in GaZ, I realized the degree of sophistication required to come to this statement in para 3:
It became clear how "unoriginal" this section must be.
And somewhere in the process, that last phrase should be resolved: did both Optatus and his GaZ use the Didache? Or did Optatus use the Didache in his GaZ?
77th Trombone ( talk) 04:45, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
We have:
{{
Christianity}}
{{
Canon law}}
{{
Jewish Christianity}}
I think this is too much navigation. Comments?
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 18:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC).
Imagine a Jewish sect which becomes somewhat isolated. In 1975, they write a work of this character. However, they don't mention the Holocaust. Not directly. Not indirectly. Nothing. Crazy, right?
Okay, so please explain how a group of Jews living any time between the destruction of the second Temple and the Bar Kochba revolt (CE 130) would form a document of this nature with no mention of Holy Temple? What is all the more problematic is that the document condemns the practices of "hypocrites"--other groups, which align tightly with known practices of some Jewish groups. The destruction of the second Temple was more cataclysmic in its day than the Holocaust was 70 years ago. It beggars the imagination to suggest that a religious group in any competitive contact with the bulk of the Jewish people at the time wouldn't view the destruction as worthy of mention in any context.
NathanZook ( talk) 03:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)