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As of 1054, there was one single monolithic Christian Church throughout all Europe. After 1054's Great Schism, there were two, the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox. England remained in communion with the East until 1066, when the Papal crusading army under William of Normandy conquered the "Heretic English". That, one hundred years later, Ireland was still uninvaded and "heretical" would seem to say that Ireland was still Eastern Orthodox in tradition. Henry 2's invasion of Ireland was, therefore, merely the second act in the Norman crusade against Orthodoxy in the British Isles. Indeed, this is substantially the position of the modern "Celtic Culdee" Orthodox Catholic church. Do note the irony, that this second Norman Invasion came exactly on the 100th anniversary of the first: the first Norman barons invaded in 1166.
I don't think anachronistic references to "Benedict Arnold" or "Vidkun Quisling" are really appropriate, they have nothing to do with the subject and assume either that the reader knows about those individuals, or would like to leave off learning about Irish History and read about those fellows instead.
Jooler
Fair enough, when writing most of the article I decided to add references to both because I saw similarities. Petty rulers who were willing to ally with large conquering nations in order to take power in their own country. (Chris Gilmore)
This person seems to have many names. What links here suggests Dermot MacMurrough may be the least common. -- Henrygb 16:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Tostig, the Anglo-Saxon brother of King Harold II, who invited the Normans to England in order to take revenge on his brother is perhaps a better analogy. On an interesting note, a taxi driver in Dublin gave me a lift about a year ago. I looked down at his name: "Diarmaid MacMurrough". Talk about evil parents!
Can someone please anglicise the irish names on the article. To anyone unfamiliar with Irish names and their pronunciation (like me!) it would make the article far, far easier to read. At the moment it's worse than Tolkien! The Irish version should be put brackets on the first appearance, but the anglicised versions should be used in English language Wikipedia. 129.234.4.76 20:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Astounding the incapacity of these English speaking monoglots to accept that not every name on planet earth is anglicised. Blinkered rightwing intolerant idiots. Acceptance of life's diversity has never come easy to those people. Just look at their rule in Ireland, as a perfect example of their abject cultural fanaticism. 193.1.172.163 17:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Surely if Wikipedia wishes to be a reputable source it ought to conform to reputable scholarly paradigms rather than 'popular' ones? I would think that using the names as found in the New History of Ireland - published by Oxford University Press (English) - as a guideline would non-controversial and very justifiable. For those who think this is some bizarre nationalist debate, I would point out that the use of anglicisations has long ago bitten the dust amongst anyone doing research in the topic either in Ireland, England or America. I rather doubt myself that Africans have any more of a mental block against something like Toirdelbach than they do against Leominster. With Diarmait/Dermot I grant you there's not much difference, and perhaps the English spelling may be clearer, but that doesn't hold true for other names. Take Toirdelbach: if you spell Toirdelbach as Turlough, then those not familiar with the name are going to be wondering whether they should rhyme it with rough, cough, bough, though or lough - so much for consistency! And I long to know whether Jalipa there thinks that MacMurrough would rhyme with any of the above, because if so, he/she would be mistaken. And you know the joke about Sevenoaks? (or should I say Snuks!). So climb down off your hobbyhorses. Blorgina 18:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Well said, Blorgina, especially correct regarding the non-use of anglicisations of Irish names by professional historians.
194.125.72.144 20:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Look, I know this must be POV, but I felt I had to remove the bit about G.W. Bush being a descendant of Dermot; I mean, the guy has enough bad press as it is, and I don't wish to speck ill of the dead. There's my ten (euro) cents. Fergananim 18:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Amen -
Just a couple of notes...
Can anyone please verify the list of 'wives' that is there in the box for MacMurrough?
I know that his first wife was Mor O'Toole and that Domhnaill's mother is a relatively unknown woman. I had thought that it was his second wife who was the mother of Aoife also. And one more thing, 'Derbforgaill Ni Mael Sechlainn' .... is this the same Derbforgaill that was married to O'Rourke?!
Must be because that'd be her parentage. Mind you they were never married! Blorgina 17:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Also - the order of Dermot's wives is at odds with the findings of Marie Therese Flanagan in "Irish Society, Anglo-Norman Settlers, Angevin Kingship: Interactions in Ireland in the Late Twelfth Century." She proposes that Sadbh Ni Faelain preceded Mor Ni Tuathal as Dermot's wife (Sadhb about 1132; Mor about 1152). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.165.199 ( talk) 13:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
I think there's some inaccurate information here about MacMurrough's children. Donal Caemanach (Kavanagh) was his eldest son - apparently born around 1127 or so to a woman who does not appear to have been either of MacMurrough's recorded wives. As such he was not legitimate in the eyes of the reformed church (though not disbarred from succession under Brehon law). Sources - Diarmait, King of Leinster by Nicholas Furlong. 193.95.165.199 ( talk) 15:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC) woesinger
A bit of a rewrite, a new section on his churches and the first reference. Let's have some more. Red Hurley ( talk) 14:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure that Dermot's father was Enna Mac Donnchada? I've read several sources (inc "Irish Regnal Succession: A Reappraisal" by Donnchadh Ó Corráin) that cite his father as Donnchadh Mac Murchad Mac Diarmait Mac Mael na nBo). Donnchadh was killed in Dublin in 1115 and succeeded as king of Ui Cheinnselaig by his cousin Diarmait. Diarmait ruled for two years before being succeeded by Donnchadh's son Enna, Dermot Mac Murrough's brother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.165.199 ( talk) 11:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
This coat of arms was recently added, and made to seem like it belonged to Diarmait. The citation is "Some Feudal Coats of Arms and Pedigrees. Joseph Foster. 1902. (p.115)", which can be read online here: [1] (click "read online" on the left part of the page). On page 114 is an image of the arms of Henry Fitzalan-Howard, 15th Duke of Norfolk (d. 1917), which has dozens of quarterings. The following page puts names to the quarterings. One of them is "Macmorrogh", one of only two names which are italicised. So the book doesn't actually show that these arms belonged to Diarmait. Maybe a better source can be found before the coat of arms is added into the infobox. Maybe this is an example of attributed arms, and he never actually used them himself. The only other italicised name is that of "Lupus, Earl of Chester". Would that be Hugh d'Avranches, 1st Earl of Chester (d. 1101)? Does anyone know anything about Hugh's coat of arms? Would he have even had a coat of arms (see English heraldry)? I wonder if his shield is considered to be 'attributed' or historically suspect. Anyone know? On pages 53-54, the book similarly covers a massive quartering of arms, and it notes that "Italic blasons denote the fabulous". If the shield is an example of attributed arms, then I don't think it should be so prominently displayed in the infobox.-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 18:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
There are various different spellings in reference to this character in different Wikipedia articles. For ease of reference the spelling should be made standard on the English Wikipedia. As Dermot MacMurrough is the most common Anglicised spelling of this character's name I propose the article title should be changed to this. AlwynJPie ( talk) 02:01, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
In Irish history books written after 1800, Diarmait Mac Murchada was often seen as a traitor, but his intention was not to aid an English invasion of Ireland, but rather to use Henry's assistance to become the High King of Ireland himself. The imperialism of the English, and later British, empire must not be placed anachronistically on to the events of 1166. The adventurers who answered Diarmait's call for help were reacting to the opportunity for land and wealth. Henry II did not wish to invade Ireland, he was forced to react to earl Richard's aggrandisement. The counts of Strigoil had been supporters of King Stephen, and Henry II did not forget easily
British propaganda seems to permeate every section of Irish history or Ireland related on Wikipedia. First off Mac Murachda had promised king Henry and strong bow full control of Ireland after his death and the marriage of his daughter Aoife MacMurrough or Red eva in English, so yes he was a traitor. Henry II did want to invade Ireland he wrote a letter to the pope asking for his permission to invade Ireland long before Diarmait Mac Murchada had requested aid to retake his kingdom. Laudabiliter makes clear Henry intentions to invade Ireland and to enforce Norman/English reforms in Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.173.38 ( talk) 05:25, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
As of 1054, there was one single monolithic Christian Church throughout all Europe. After 1054's Great Schism, there were two, the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox. England remained in communion with the East until 1066, when the Papal crusading army under William of Normandy conquered the "Heretic English". That, one hundred years later, Ireland was still uninvaded and "heretical" would seem to say that Ireland was still Eastern Orthodox in tradition. Henry 2's invasion of Ireland was, therefore, merely the second act in the Norman crusade against Orthodoxy in the British Isles. Indeed, this is substantially the position of the modern "Celtic Culdee" Orthodox Catholic church. Do note the irony, that this second Norman Invasion came exactly on the 100th anniversary of the first: the first Norman barons invaded in 1166.
I don't think anachronistic references to "Benedict Arnold" or "Vidkun Quisling" are really appropriate, they have nothing to do with the subject and assume either that the reader knows about those individuals, or would like to leave off learning about Irish History and read about those fellows instead.
Jooler
Fair enough, when writing most of the article I decided to add references to both because I saw similarities. Petty rulers who were willing to ally with large conquering nations in order to take power in their own country. (Chris Gilmore)
This person seems to have many names. What links here suggests Dermot MacMurrough may be the least common. -- Henrygb 16:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Tostig, the Anglo-Saxon brother of King Harold II, who invited the Normans to England in order to take revenge on his brother is perhaps a better analogy. On an interesting note, a taxi driver in Dublin gave me a lift about a year ago. I looked down at his name: "Diarmaid MacMurrough". Talk about evil parents!
Can someone please anglicise the irish names on the article. To anyone unfamiliar with Irish names and their pronunciation (like me!) it would make the article far, far easier to read. At the moment it's worse than Tolkien! The Irish version should be put brackets on the first appearance, but the anglicised versions should be used in English language Wikipedia. 129.234.4.76 20:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Astounding the incapacity of these English speaking monoglots to accept that not every name on planet earth is anglicised. Blinkered rightwing intolerant idiots. Acceptance of life's diversity has never come easy to those people. Just look at their rule in Ireland, as a perfect example of their abject cultural fanaticism. 193.1.172.163 17:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Surely if Wikipedia wishes to be a reputable source it ought to conform to reputable scholarly paradigms rather than 'popular' ones? I would think that using the names as found in the New History of Ireland - published by Oxford University Press (English) - as a guideline would non-controversial and very justifiable. For those who think this is some bizarre nationalist debate, I would point out that the use of anglicisations has long ago bitten the dust amongst anyone doing research in the topic either in Ireland, England or America. I rather doubt myself that Africans have any more of a mental block against something like Toirdelbach than they do against Leominster. With Diarmait/Dermot I grant you there's not much difference, and perhaps the English spelling may be clearer, but that doesn't hold true for other names. Take Toirdelbach: if you spell Toirdelbach as Turlough, then those not familiar with the name are going to be wondering whether they should rhyme it with rough, cough, bough, though or lough - so much for consistency! And I long to know whether Jalipa there thinks that MacMurrough would rhyme with any of the above, because if so, he/she would be mistaken. And you know the joke about Sevenoaks? (or should I say Snuks!). So climb down off your hobbyhorses. Blorgina 18:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Well said, Blorgina, especially correct regarding the non-use of anglicisations of Irish names by professional historians.
194.125.72.144 20:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Look, I know this must be POV, but I felt I had to remove the bit about G.W. Bush being a descendant of Dermot; I mean, the guy has enough bad press as it is, and I don't wish to speck ill of the dead. There's my ten (euro) cents. Fergananim 18:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Amen -
Just a couple of notes...
Can anyone please verify the list of 'wives' that is there in the box for MacMurrough?
I know that his first wife was Mor O'Toole and that Domhnaill's mother is a relatively unknown woman. I had thought that it was his second wife who was the mother of Aoife also. And one more thing, 'Derbforgaill Ni Mael Sechlainn' .... is this the same Derbforgaill that was married to O'Rourke?!
Must be because that'd be her parentage. Mind you they were never married! Blorgina 17:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Also - the order of Dermot's wives is at odds with the findings of Marie Therese Flanagan in "Irish Society, Anglo-Norman Settlers, Angevin Kingship: Interactions in Ireland in the Late Twelfth Century." She proposes that Sadbh Ni Faelain preceded Mor Ni Tuathal as Dermot's wife (Sadhb about 1132; Mor about 1152). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.165.199 ( talk) 13:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
I think there's some inaccurate information here about MacMurrough's children. Donal Caemanach (Kavanagh) was his eldest son - apparently born around 1127 or so to a woman who does not appear to have been either of MacMurrough's recorded wives. As such he was not legitimate in the eyes of the reformed church (though not disbarred from succession under Brehon law). Sources - Diarmait, King of Leinster by Nicholas Furlong. 193.95.165.199 ( talk) 15:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC) woesinger
A bit of a rewrite, a new section on his churches and the first reference. Let's have some more. Red Hurley ( talk) 14:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure that Dermot's father was Enna Mac Donnchada? I've read several sources (inc "Irish Regnal Succession: A Reappraisal" by Donnchadh Ó Corráin) that cite his father as Donnchadh Mac Murchad Mac Diarmait Mac Mael na nBo). Donnchadh was killed in Dublin in 1115 and succeeded as king of Ui Cheinnselaig by his cousin Diarmait. Diarmait ruled for two years before being succeeded by Donnchadh's son Enna, Dermot Mac Murrough's brother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.165.199 ( talk) 11:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
This coat of arms was recently added, and made to seem like it belonged to Diarmait. The citation is "Some Feudal Coats of Arms and Pedigrees. Joseph Foster. 1902. (p.115)", which can be read online here: [1] (click "read online" on the left part of the page). On page 114 is an image of the arms of Henry Fitzalan-Howard, 15th Duke of Norfolk (d. 1917), which has dozens of quarterings. The following page puts names to the quarterings. One of them is "Macmorrogh", one of only two names which are italicised. So the book doesn't actually show that these arms belonged to Diarmait. Maybe a better source can be found before the coat of arms is added into the infobox. Maybe this is an example of attributed arms, and he never actually used them himself. The only other italicised name is that of "Lupus, Earl of Chester". Would that be Hugh d'Avranches, 1st Earl of Chester (d. 1101)? Does anyone know anything about Hugh's coat of arms? Would he have even had a coat of arms (see English heraldry)? I wonder if his shield is considered to be 'attributed' or historically suspect. Anyone know? On pages 53-54, the book similarly covers a massive quartering of arms, and it notes that "Italic blasons denote the fabulous". If the shield is an example of attributed arms, then I don't think it should be so prominently displayed in the infobox.-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 18:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
There are various different spellings in reference to this character in different Wikipedia articles. For ease of reference the spelling should be made standard on the English Wikipedia. As Dermot MacMurrough is the most common Anglicised spelling of this character's name I propose the article title should be changed to this. AlwynJPie ( talk) 02:01, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
In Irish history books written after 1800, Diarmait Mac Murchada was often seen as a traitor, but his intention was not to aid an English invasion of Ireland, but rather to use Henry's assistance to become the High King of Ireland himself. The imperialism of the English, and later British, empire must not be placed anachronistically on to the events of 1166. The adventurers who answered Diarmait's call for help were reacting to the opportunity for land and wealth. Henry II did not wish to invade Ireland, he was forced to react to earl Richard's aggrandisement. The counts of Strigoil had been supporters of King Stephen, and Henry II did not forget easily
British propaganda seems to permeate every section of Irish history or Ireland related on Wikipedia. First off Mac Murachda had promised king Henry and strong bow full control of Ireland after his death and the marriage of his daughter Aoife MacMurrough or Red eva in English, so yes he was a traitor. Henry II did want to invade Ireland he wrote a letter to the pope asking for his permission to invade Ireland long before Diarmait Mac Murchada had requested aid to retake his kingdom. Laudabiliter makes clear Henry intentions to invade Ireland and to enforce Norman/English reforms in Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.173.38 ( talk) 05:25, 5 February 2020 (UTC)