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This isn't quite ready for GA.
This still has a ways to go yet. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 02:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Are we trying to save page-space here? Is the virtual encyclopedia becoming too heavy to carry around? Somebody looking up the "Grey Death" wants to know about the Grey Death. I'd imagine they probably don't want to sift through 18 combined pages of Deus Ex information to find what they want to know about the Grey Death. I know I've looked up several topics (frustratingly unable to recall them right now) which have redirected me to some anonymous article which, half the time, has nothing to do with the topic in question. What's with all of this merging? Gamer Junkie 14:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
My question remains unanswered. What does Gray Death say that this article isn't going to say? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 19:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Conciseness is using the fewest words to say the most information. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide an overview of many subjects, not explain them in detail; we're here to describe things in summary style, and WP:NOT still calls out articles that are nothing but plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You're discarding, out of hand, the reasons those guidelines were written. They were written to reduce redundancy and keep from duplicating, in toto, a fictional work that a handful of editors happen to like. If you want to document every single object and corner of your favorite games, there are other projects where you can do so. This project is an encyclopedia aimed at lay readers, and making articles that are nothing but overly detailed plot summaries does not serve that purpose.
I suggest we write an in-depth article on Deus Ex, sure, but Gray Death and Ambrosia (Deus Ex) and JC Denton and Paul Denton and The Collapse (Deus Ex) and the vast majority of these crufty articles don't stand up to in-depth analysis. The only things one can say about any of them are recapping the plot of the game in which they appear, and long-standing Wikipedia practice is to use plot summary to lend context to content that describes the real world. That is the long-standing compromise between "Normal encyclopedias would never have plot summaries" and "Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia," and it's not going to be overturned because a couple of editors want to turn this project into something it is not. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I see I'm kind of late for a lot of this discussion, but as usual It's apparent AMIB has as usual failed to give a good reply to my original problem with him referencing Final Fantasy as an example to be followed. I seem to remember him lobbying quite vehemently for the deletion of Robots in Deus Ex, Weapons in Deus Ex, and Weapons in Deus Ex: Invisible War as "guides". Now he is also calling for the merging of JC Denton, Paul Denton, and various other pages into the main Deus Ex article because they are mere "cruft" and "plot snippets". Yet, in his opinion, page such as List of Final Fantasy airships, Final Fantasy bestiary, Final Fantasy items, and List of Final Fantasy VII terms, (among many others) and such character pages as Cloud Strife and Jenova are somehow perfectly fine.
Am I the only one who can see a blatant double standard here?
He also seems to act as if the chances of Deus Ex being chosen for "Featured Article" status will be somehow hurt by the quality and/or number of its off-shoot articles - which is clearly not the case. -- Grandpafootsoldier 01:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
First, there is no need to compare final fantasy topics with Deus Ex topics, since Final Fantasy covers nearly 20 games. Moreover, pages such as Final Fantasy items provide an overview; they don't list all the items. But that's beside the point. Final Fantasy VII and all the five paragraph character class articles are the only major cruft points in WPFF. The Deus Ex information should not be removed from the site, but it should be trimmed a bit. I think the best option is to create a Terminology of Deus Ex or a Story of Deus Ex page to combine all these plot elements. There should also be a substantial story section on the page, with subheadings for setting, characters, and plot. Final Fantasy X is a good way to treat Deus Ex; see the subpages for FFX for what I'm getting at. — Deckill e r 02:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
This section can probably be condensed into #Themes, but it needs to be linted for "fans noticed that X is similar to Y!" stuff. For example, Ambrosia could be a reference to something else that is referencing the drink of the gods, or it could just be a name that sounds nice.
Right now, it's just a list of things fans think might be intentional parallels (much like the rest of the sections tagged {{ originalresearch}}), instead of things that reliable sources have described as parallels. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 21:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This article is going to need some work before it reaches GA.
From personal experience, Final Fantasy VIII or Final Fantasy X-2 are probably the best models to follow. References are fine for GA-level, except for those OR issues discussed. — Deckill e r 02:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
It occured to me that we have no real naming convention for Deus Ex sub-articles. We have, for example, Deus Ex mods, Weapons in Deus Ex, Minor Deus Ex characters, etc. I realize this isn't exactly top priority, but wouldn't it make sense if we had them organized as sub-folder? Y'know, something like Deus Ex\Mods, Deus Ex\Minor characters, that kind of thing. It would bring a certain smoothness to the way the sub-articles are presented, clearly identifying them as sub-articles related to a larger main article. Or am I completely off base here? -- Y|yukichigai 18:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I took a screenshot of the first-person view of Deus Ex:
image:DeusEx 2006-10-03 18-31-45-56.gif
Should we use it for the article? ThunderPower 22:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Yes, we should. Make sure you write a fair-use rationale for it, though. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
It might be worth double-checking the info on the missing World Trade Centre towers. I distinctly recall playing this game in early 2001 and the towers were visible on the skyline. After the events of September 11 a patch was released which fixed a number of annoying bugs and also removed the towers from the skyline. Of course, I don't have an original copy to double-check that myself and just me saying "hey, I remember X" is probably not authoritive enough for an encyclopedia. -- BenM 11:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've put in the early leg-work on this section, providing at least a starting point for what I hope is a larger, more complete comparison and contrast. I'm searching for sourced statements, hopefully from the developers as they explain why they included cuch and such element while leaving others out. This is by no means a complete start, but it's a big leap from where things were when I started on the page. Consequentially 02:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone find that 1up interview? I've searched the site, and tried using parts of the quote in Google search, and the quote has only turned up on Wikipedia and its mirrors. As the quote is still not sourced after several months, I'm removing it.-- Drat ( Talk) 08:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Shoudn't it be mentioned that no matter if Denton brothers' names were a reference to the Bible, these references became obvious in DX:IW? Apart from JC (ref. to Jesus Christ) and Paul (ref. to Paul of Tarsus) there are also Tarsus Academy (Paul of Tarsus again) and ApostleCorp. Even if the former two could have been coincidental, the latter rather could have not. 62.29.136.15 19:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Over the last few months I've been seeing a lot of wikibusybodies loudly asserting that trivia section are bad and evil and should be converted to prose or outright eliminated... yet never explaining exactly WHY. So I ask you trivia-haters, why? What's the problem? How is it an improvement to, for example, take the informative, precise, and easily-readable 'Ton guest list and convert it to a vague, LESS-informative sentence? Clayhalliwell 16:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
You're actually asking about three different things: trivia sections, bulleted lists, and trivial details.
Trivia sections are dealt with in WP:AVTRIV. Short version: trivia sections are bad because they tend to be dumping grounds for miscellaneous facts, which should be mentioned elsewhere in more-relevant parts of the article. In general, though, the facts in a trivia section shouldn't be deleted unless they're truly trivial details.
Bulleted lists take up a lot of space to say very little. Almost always, the info contained therein can be converted to more-attractive, more-compact prose. They also encourage the inclusion of lists of trivial details.
Trivial details need to be summarized instead of listed in exhaustive detail, in summary style. (This is reflexive; the details that are trivial are the ones so unimportant that significant encyclopedic understanding of the subject is not lost if such details are summarized.) Remember, our goal is not to list every single fact ever noted (particularly in the case where that fact is merely a story detail from a fictional word), but give an encyclopedic understanding and overview.
Does this help? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 17:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The current article only mentions the soundtrack for Deus Ex only once. Since the soundtrack for DX is easily one of the best ever, I think there should be a small section about it. Would it be good for the article? - ZFGokuSSJ1 17:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've added a soundtrack segment to the page. It only has a basic track list and a couple other details, so if anyone has anything else they think should be added go ahead. -- Grandpafootsoldier 22:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I know the soundtrack is critically acclaimed, but the sources for that kind of suck. We can probably do better; I'll see what I can find. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I guess we had better the ball rolling on discussing the possibility of merging the UNATCO, VersaLife, and Majestic 12 articles into the main Deus Ex page - no matter how painful this is likely to be knowing A Man In Black's track record.
I for one am against it. Yes, the "Gray Death" and "Ambrosia" pages were kind of redundant, but I don't think it holds true of these three, as they help to give more detail on the organizations in question than the plot summery can, and give information about the NPC's encountered from each. -- Grandpafootsoldier 00:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, you havn't read the entry in question thoroughly AMIB, here it is in full just in case:
Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article, or as part of a series of articles per Wikipedia:Article series.
Which seems to me quite applicable in this case, given the length and complexity of the subject in question. Also, for your other point, perhaps I did not make myself clear enough the first time. Analysis and comparisons seem to me to be quite allowable if they are backed up with solid, preferably sourced, information and are written in a non-biased manner.
Also, who are you to say how much information on a subject is a "good idea" or not? It is my view that, given Wikipedia's resources, if the information is presented in a easily understandable encyclopedic manner, and helps someone to understand the subject better, there should be no set limit to how much information someone is "allowed" to present. That is one of the things that makes Wikipedia great in my opinion. -- Grandpafootsoldier 03:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be rather odd to end the article with the soundtrack section... Should we add a 'Post-release life' section (or something similar)? - ZFGokuSSJ1 02:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This isn't quite ready for GA.
This still has a ways to go yet. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 02:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Are we trying to save page-space here? Is the virtual encyclopedia becoming too heavy to carry around? Somebody looking up the "Grey Death" wants to know about the Grey Death. I'd imagine they probably don't want to sift through 18 combined pages of Deus Ex information to find what they want to know about the Grey Death. I know I've looked up several topics (frustratingly unable to recall them right now) which have redirected me to some anonymous article which, half the time, has nothing to do with the topic in question. What's with all of this merging? Gamer Junkie 14:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
My question remains unanswered. What does Gray Death say that this article isn't going to say? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 19:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Conciseness is using the fewest words to say the most information. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide an overview of many subjects, not explain them in detail; we're here to describe things in summary style, and WP:NOT still calls out articles that are nothing but plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You're discarding, out of hand, the reasons those guidelines were written. They were written to reduce redundancy and keep from duplicating, in toto, a fictional work that a handful of editors happen to like. If you want to document every single object and corner of your favorite games, there are other projects where you can do so. This project is an encyclopedia aimed at lay readers, and making articles that are nothing but overly detailed plot summaries does not serve that purpose.
I suggest we write an in-depth article on Deus Ex, sure, but Gray Death and Ambrosia (Deus Ex) and JC Denton and Paul Denton and The Collapse (Deus Ex) and the vast majority of these crufty articles don't stand up to in-depth analysis. The only things one can say about any of them are recapping the plot of the game in which they appear, and long-standing Wikipedia practice is to use plot summary to lend context to content that describes the real world. That is the long-standing compromise between "Normal encyclopedias would never have plot summaries" and "Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia," and it's not going to be overturned because a couple of editors want to turn this project into something it is not. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I see I'm kind of late for a lot of this discussion, but as usual It's apparent AMIB has as usual failed to give a good reply to my original problem with him referencing Final Fantasy as an example to be followed. I seem to remember him lobbying quite vehemently for the deletion of Robots in Deus Ex, Weapons in Deus Ex, and Weapons in Deus Ex: Invisible War as "guides". Now he is also calling for the merging of JC Denton, Paul Denton, and various other pages into the main Deus Ex article because they are mere "cruft" and "plot snippets". Yet, in his opinion, page such as List of Final Fantasy airships, Final Fantasy bestiary, Final Fantasy items, and List of Final Fantasy VII terms, (among many others) and such character pages as Cloud Strife and Jenova are somehow perfectly fine.
Am I the only one who can see a blatant double standard here?
He also seems to act as if the chances of Deus Ex being chosen for "Featured Article" status will be somehow hurt by the quality and/or number of its off-shoot articles - which is clearly not the case. -- Grandpafootsoldier 01:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
First, there is no need to compare final fantasy topics with Deus Ex topics, since Final Fantasy covers nearly 20 games. Moreover, pages such as Final Fantasy items provide an overview; they don't list all the items. But that's beside the point. Final Fantasy VII and all the five paragraph character class articles are the only major cruft points in WPFF. The Deus Ex information should not be removed from the site, but it should be trimmed a bit. I think the best option is to create a Terminology of Deus Ex or a Story of Deus Ex page to combine all these plot elements. There should also be a substantial story section on the page, with subheadings for setting, characters, and plot. Final Fantasy X is a good way to treat Deus Ex; see the subpages for FFX for what I'm getting at. — Deckill e r 02:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
This section can probably be condensed into #Themes, but it needs to be linted for "fans noticed that X is similar to Y!" stuff. For example, Ambrosia could be a reference to something else that is referencing the drink of the gods, or it could just be a name that sounds nice.
Right now, it's just a list of things fans think might be intentional parallels (much like the rest of the sections tagged {{ originalresearch}}), instead of things that reliable sources have described as parallels. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 21:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This article is going to need some work before it reaches GA.
From personal experience, Final Fantasy VIII or Final Fantasy X-2 are probably the best models to follow. References are fine for GA-level, except for those OR issues discussed. — Deckill e r 02:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
It occured to me that we have no real naming convention for Deus Ex sub-articles. We have, for example, Deus Ex mods, Weapons in Deus Ex, Minor Deus Ex characters, etc. I realize this isn't exactly top priority, but wouldn't it make sense if we had them organized as sub-folder? Y'know, something like Deus Ex\Mods, Deus Ex\Minor characters, that kind of thing. It would bring a certain smoothness to the way the sub-articles are presented, clearly identifying them as sub-articles related to a larger main article. Or am I completely off base here? -- Y|yukichigai 18:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I took a screenshot of the first-person view of Deus Ex:
image:DeusEx 2006-10-03 18-31-45-56.gif
Should we use it for the article? ThunderPower 22:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Yes, we should. Make sure you write a fair-use rationale for it, though. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
It might be worth double-checking the info on the missing World Trade Centre towers. I distinctly recall playing this game in early 2001 and the towers were visible on the skyline. After the events of September 11 a patch was released which fixed a number of annoying bugs and also removed the towers from the skyline. Of course, I don't have an original copy to double-check that myself and just me saying "hey, I remember X" is probably not authoritive enough for an encyclopedia. -- BenM 11:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've put in the early leg-work on this section, providing at least a starting point for what I hope is a larger, more complete comparison and contrast. I'm searching for sourced statements, hopefully from the developers as they explain why they included cuch and such element while leaving others out. This is by no means a complete start, but it's a big leap from where things were when I started on the page. Consequentially 02:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone find that 1up interview? I've searched the site, and tried using parts of the quote in Google search, and the quote has only turned up on Wikipedia and its mirrors. As the quote is still not sourced after several months, I'm removing it.-- Drat ( Talk) 08:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Shoudn't it be mentioned that no matter if Denton brothers' names were a reference to the Bible, these references became obvious in DX:IW? Apart from JC (ref. to Jesus Christ) and Paul (ref. to Paul of Tarsus) there are also Tarsus Academy (Paul of Tarsus again) and ApostleCorp. Even if the former two could have been coincidental, the latter rather could have not. 62.29.136.15 19:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Over the last few months I've been seeing a lot of wikibusybodies loudly asserting that trivia section are bad and evil and should be converted to prose or outright eliminated... yet never explaining exactly WHY. So I ask you trivia-haters, why? What's the problem? How is it an improvement to, for example, take the informative, precise, and easily-readable 'Ton guest list and convert it to a vague, LESS-informative sentence? Clayhalliwell 16:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
You're actually asking about three different things: trivia sections, bulleted lists, and trivial details.
Trivia sections are dealt with in WP:AVTRIV. Short version: trivia sections are bad because they tend to be dumping grounds for miscellaneous facts, which should be mentioned elsewhere in more-relevant parts of the article. In general, though, the facts in a trivia section shouldn't be deleted unless they're truly trivial details.
Bulleted lists take up a lot of space to say very little. Almost always, the info contained therein can be converted to more-attractive, more-compact prose. They also encourage the inclusion of lists of trivial details.
Trivial details need to be summarized instead of listed in exhaustive detail, in summary style. (This is reflexive; the details that are trivial are the ones so unimportant that significant encyclopedic understanding of the subject is not lost if such details are summarized.) Remember, our goal is not to list every single fact ever noted (particularly in the case where that fact is merely a story detail from a fictional word), but give an encyclopedic understanding and overview.
Does this help? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 17:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The current article only mentions the soundtrack for Deus Ex only once. Since the soundtrack for DX is easily one of the best ever, I think there should be a small section about it. Would it be good for the article? - ZFGokuSSJ1 17:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've added a soundtrack segment to the page. It only has a basic track list and a couple other details, so if anyone has anything else they think should be added go ahead. -- Grandpafootsoldier 22:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I know the soundtrack is critically acclaimed, but the sources for that kind of suck. We can probably do better; I'll see what I can find. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I guess we had better the ball rolling on discussing the possibility of merging the UNATCO, VersaLife, and Majestic 12 articles into the main Deus Ex page - no matter how painful this is likely to be knowing A Man In Black's track record.
I for one am against it. Yes, the "Gray Death" and "Ambrosia" pages were kind of redundant, but I don't think it holds true of these three, as they help to give more detail on the organizations in question than the plot summery can, and give information about the NPC's encountered from each. -- Grandpafootsoldier 00:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, you havn't read the entry in question thoroughly AMIB, here it is in full just in case:
Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article, or as part of a series of articles per Wikipedia:Article series.
Which seems to me quite applicable in this case, given the length and complexity of the subject in question. Also, for your other point, perhaps I did not make myself clear enough the first time. Analysis and comparisons seem to me to be quite allowable if they are backed up with solid, preferably sourced, information and are written in a non-biased manner.
Also, who are you to say how much information on a subject is a "good idea" or not? It is my view that, given Wikipedia's resources, if the information is presented in a easily understandable encyclopedic manner, and helps someone to understand the subject better, there should be no set limit to how much information someone is "allowed" to present. That is one of the things that makes Wikipedia great in my opinion. -- Grandpafootsoldier 03:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be rather odd to end the article with the soundtrack section... Should we add a 'Post-release life' section (or something similar)? - ZFGokuSSJ1 02:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)