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Text and/or other creative content from Determiner (function) was copied or moved into Determiner (class) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The contents of the Determiner (function) page were merged into Determiner. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chavarriaa, Tatangrunge, CorporalKobold, Cainss. Peer reviewers: RBauder.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Under "English determiners" we have (emphasis added)
yet under "Differences from pronouns" we are told
Which is it?
Also, the examples given to show that such "determiners" are not pronouns are not convincing.
1. The pronouns which can occur in tags is a limited set.
2. Not all pronouns must come before the particle. Pick some up/Pick up some are both acceptable (although, admittedly, the latter sounds much better with continuation: Pick up some for me, OK?, etc.). (??)Pick up this is decidedly odd IMO.
The above point more to a subcategorization of pronouns than to any difference between determiners and pronouns. I therefore see no reason to not follow the traditional classification of these words as pronouns when not used with a noun.
(Note also that the content here is not in accord with that of the external link.)
If there are no objections within a week or so, I will start editing. --
RJCraig
19:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Um...I haven't had a chance to go through the CGEL yet but will try to get to it today. Just an observation or two:
I changed the example for pronoun genitive forms since his might be a bit ambiguous. -- RJCraig 22:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the article as one of my group member stated, it is brief and could need more information and/or sections. Especially a bit related to linguistics(syntax etc.)
My plan, is to reword some grammatical errors and make more understandable than what was originally written. Some sections does not flow, I must reread to understand the sentence.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/determiners/determiners.htm
In this above link I found excellent information anyone can reach a student account is not necessary to open the link, it is available to all and not just scholarly use. This link is very informative and I could use it to add more information about my article. This should help any random person who never heard of determiners, to understand. This source explains determiners well and I would like to use this source.
It shows great examples and explanations of how determiners occur and work. Cainss ( talk) 06:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)Cainss
Can you help me understand the difference between a quantifying determiner and a distributive determiner? I'm not seeing anything clear in the references, and the definition of a distributive determiner given here isn't cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inkpot Wiz ( talk • contribs) 03:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Is the Determiner (class)#Differences from pronouns section correct? The following is an excerpt:
That is definitely a difference between personal pronouns and demonstrative pronouns. In English, determiners and corresponding pronouns often have the same form, but it's not always true in other languages. The difference between determiners and pronouns is that the former precede a noun while the latter don't. - TAKASUGI Shinji 12:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that Possessive adjective be renamed to Possessive determiner, because my, your, etc. are actually determines, not adjectives. The article seems to receive little attention, and I have had only one response. I'll appreciate it if you write your opinions on Talk:Possessive adjective#Requested move. - TAKASUGI Shinji 06:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
"Determiner (class)" doesn't seem a terribly helpful title. "Class" could refer to pretty much anything. Might it be better to rename the article "Determiner (grammar)" or "Determiner (linguistics)" or something like that? Matt 23:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC).
From the article:
Determiners such as this, all, and some can often occur without a noun. In traditional grammar, these are called pronouns. There are, however, a number of key differences between such determiners and pronouns.
This implies that the word "this" in "this is delicious" is a determiner. Is that really true? Surely in this context "this" is a pronoun -- in any grammar, "traditional" or otherwise? "This" as a determiner would be in e.g. "this apple is delicious". Matt 03:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Over at the English Wiktionary, it appears that we may be facing a vote regarding whether to allow determiner as a "part of speech heading" for English words. Anyone willing to make arguments for or against should make themselves heard here.-- Brett ( talk) 14:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody else find this sentence ...questionable?
rowley ( talk) 10:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Merged with Determiner (function) as per consensus on Talk:Determiner (function) Jubilee♫ clipman 04:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Now that the two articles have been merged should this article be moved to Determiner (that DAB page being somewhat redundant)? Jubilee♫ clipman 04:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page. While the dab page could be overwritten and replaced with hatnotes, there has been no evidence presented here that Determiner (class) is the primary topic of the search term "determiner". Dekimasu よ! 11:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Determiner (class) → Determiner — — Determiner (class) and Determiner (function) were merged per consensus and DAB affix no longer needed. Dest page was DAB page and has history. — Jubilee♫ clipman 04:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
But I think it's clear that "(class)" no longer makes any sense, if it ever did. I'll move it to "(linguistics)". CapnPrep ( talk) 13:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
"Traditional English grammar" as opposed to, I assume, generative grammar? Could someone please drop a few words as to when, by whom and in what context the concept "determiner" (or "determinative") was introduced and / or accepted by the scientific community? Thanx Dan ☺ 19:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The Article questions whether numbers are actually determiners, giving the example 'English numerals for 100 or larger need a determiner, such as "a hundred men."' However, "hundred" is not actually a number, whereas "one hundred" is. In this form numbers over 99 are still used as determiners, e.g. "one hundred men".
It would seem that in the context of phrases such as "a hundred men", "hundred" may represent a noun/prepositional clause equivalent to "hundred of" DavidRatonyi ( talk) 00:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC) David
Perhaps ordinal numberings (first, second, ..., penultimate, ultimate, last) should be called out as well as cardinal (one, two, ...) determiners?
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/159192/determiner-vs-determinative "In the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Huddleston and Pullum use the term "determinative" for the lexical category of words like the, etc. And they use "determiner" for the grammatical function that is characteristically filled by determinatives (but which can also be filled by things such as genitive noun phrases).
In an older generation of reference grammars, however, notably Quirk, et alia's Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, the use of these terms is exactly reversed. That is, "determiner" is the lexical category and "determinative" is the grammatical function.
The difference has been bugging me for a long time. Can anyone provide a principled explanation as to why we should prefer one over the other? I'm sure Huddleston and Pullum had a motivation to alter terminology that's been in use since Bloomfield's day, but I can't find any discussion in their work." Cnevis ( talk) 14:53, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I think what could be done to this article:
1. Fixing the references or work on the references.
2. There are some grammar/ wording that needs to be changed/corrected/reworded.
3. Make article have more details, for people who can understand in every day life, like if a random person reads this article versus a person who already studies Linguistics and knows about Determiners.
Cainss (
talk)
21:10, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from Determiner (function) was copied or moved into Determiner (class) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The contents of the Determiner (function) page were merged into Determiner. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chavarriaa, Tatangrunge, CorporalKobold, Cainss. Peer reviewers: RBauder.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Under "English determiners" we have (emphasis added)
yet under "Differences from pronouns" we are told
Which is it?
Also, the examples given to show that such "determiners" are not pronouns are not convincing.
1. The pronouns which can occur in tags is a limited set.
2. Not all pronouns must come before the particle. Pick some up/Pick up some are both acceptable (although, admittedly, the latter sounds much better with continuation: Pick up some for me, OK?, etc.). (??)Pick up this is decidedly odd IMO.
The above point more to a subcategorization of pronouns than to any difference between determiners and pronouns. I therefore see no reason to not follow the traditional classification of these words as pronouns when not used with a noun.
(Note also that the content here is not in accord with that of the external link.)
If there are no objections within a week or so, I will start editing. --
RJCraig
19:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Um...I haven't had a chance to go through the CGEL yet but will try to get to it today. Just an observation or two:
I changed the example for pronoun genitive forms since his might be a bit ambiguous. -- RJCraig 22:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the article as one of my group member stated, it is brief and could need more information and/or sections. Especially a bit related to linguistics(syntax etc.)
My plan, is to reword some grammatical errors and make more understandable than what was originally written. Some sections does not flow, I must reread to understand the sentence.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/determiners/determiners.htm
In this above link I found excellent information anyone can reach a student account is not necessary to open the link, it is available to all and not just scholarly use. This link is very informative and I could use it to add more information about my article. This should help any random person who never heard of determiners, to understand. This source explains determiners well and I would like to use this source.
It shows great examples and explanations of how determiners occur and work. Cainss ( talk) 06:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)Cainss
Can you help me understand the difference between a quantifying determiner and a distributive determiner? I'm not seeing anything clear in the references, and the definition of a distributive determiner given here isn't cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inkpot Wiz ( talk • contribs) 03:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Is the Determiner (class)#Differences from pronouns section correct? The following is an excerpt:
That is definitely a difference between personal pronouns and demonstrative pronouns. In English, determiners and corresponding pronouns often have the same form, but it's not always true in other languages. The difference between determiners and pronouns is that the former precede a noun while the latter don't. - TAKASUGI Shinji 12:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that Possessive adjective be renamed to Possessive determiner, because my, your, etc. are actually determines, not adjectives. The article seems to receive little attention, and I have had only one response. I'll appreciate it if you write your opinions on Talk:Possessive adjective#Requested move. - TAKASUGI Shinji 06:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
"Determiner (class)" doesn't seem a terribly helpful title. "Class" could refer to pretty much anything. Might it be better to rename the article "Determiner (grammar)" or "Determiner (linguistics)" or something like that? Matt 23:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC).
From the article:
Determiners such as this, all, and some can often occur without a noun. In traditional grammar, these are called pronouns. There are, however, a number of key differences between such determiners and pronouns.
This implies that the word "this" in "this is delicious" is a determiner. Is that really true? Surely in this context "this" is a pronoun -- in any grammar, "traditional" or otherwise? "This" as a determiner would be in e.g. "this apple is delicious". Matt 03:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Over at the English Wiktionary, it appears that we may be facing a vote regarding whether to allow determiner as a "part of speech heading" for English words. Anyone willing to make arguments for or against should make themselves heard here.-- Brett ( talk) 14:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody else find this sentence ...questionable?
rowley ( talk) 10:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Merged with Determiner (function) as per consensus on Talk:Determiner (function) Jubilee♫ clipman 04:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Now that the two articles have been merged should this article be moved to Determiner (that DAB page being somewhat redundant)? Jubilee♫ clipman 04:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page. While the dab page could be overwritten and replaced with hatnotes, there has been no evidence presented here that Determiner (class) is the primary topic of the search term "determiner". Dekimasu よ! 11:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Determiner (class) → Determiner — — Determiner (class) and Determiner (function) were merged per consensus and DAB affix no longer needed. Dest page was DAB page and has history. — Jubilee♫ clipman 04:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
But I think it's clear that "(class)" no longer makes any sense, if it ever did. I'll move it to "(linguistics)". CapnPrep ( talk) 13:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
"Traditional English grammar" as opposed to, I assume, generative grammar? Could someone please drop a few words as to when, by whom and in what context the concept "determiner" (or "determinative") was introduced and / or accepted by the scientific community? Thanx Dan ☺ 19:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The Article questions whether numbers are actually determiners, giving the example 'English numerals for 100 or larger need a determiner, such as "a hundred men."' However, "hundred" is not actually a number, whereas "one hundred" is. In this form numbers over 99 are still used as determiners, e.g. "one hundred men".
It would seem that in the context of phrases such as "a hundred men", "hundred" may represent a noun/prepositional clause equivalent to "hundred of" DavidRatonyi ( talk) 00:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC) David
Perhaps ordinal numberings (first, second, ..., penultimate, ultimate, last) should be called out as well as cardinal (one, two, ...) determiners?
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/159192/determiner-vs-determinative "In the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Huddleston and Pullum use the term "determinative" for the lexical category of words like the, etc. And they use "determiner" for the grammatical function that is characteristically filled by determinatives (but which can also be filled by things such as genitive noun phrases).
In an older generation of reference grammars, however, notably Quirk, et alia's Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, the use of these terms is exactly reversed. That is, "determiner" is the lexical category and "determinative" is the grammatical function.
The difference has been bugging me for a long time. Can anyone provide a principled explanation as to why we should prefer one over the other? I'm sure Huddleston and Pullum had a motivation to alter terminology that's been in use since Bloomfield's day, but I can't find any discussion in their work." Cnevis ( talk) 14:53, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I think what could be done to this article:
1. Fixing the references or work on the references.
2. There are some grammar/ wording that needs to be changed/corrected/reworded.
3. Make article have more details, for people who can understand in every day life, like if a random person reads this article versus a person who already studies Linguistics and knows about Determiners.
Cainss (
talk)
21:10, 22 March 2018 (UTC)