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I think that the title of this article is misleading and promotes for a POV. I think it needs to be changed, I will sleep on it and try to come up with a more relevant title, but i don't think that this title is correct.
Yamanam (
talk) 15:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Looks to me like several names in the article deserve links and lack them. It's OK to link something that does not yet have an article, as long as it should have one. - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a "see also" to Excavations of Al-Aqsa Mosque? Seems tendentious to me. Al-Aqsa Mosque does not date back to this period, and no one is destroying it (although there are certainly a few millennialist Jews and perhaps Christians who would like to). The only tie I see - and the one that makes me consider it a tendentious inclusion - is that some Muslims, according to the article, hold Jews responsible for what is happening in Mecca and Medina, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in territory controlled (illegally annexed, in my view, but that is neither here nor there) by Israel.
If we are going to include that, it would be no more (and no less) tendentious to include Buddhas of Bamyan. I say don't include either one. - Jmabel | Talk 21:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is of a sensitive nature, therefor, additions made thereof should be done with extreme cautious. For instance, it is against the whole SUNNI doctrine to venerate any historical site not mentioned in Quran or Hadith, not only Wahhabi doctrine, this is one. Two, Shia are different, in many terms, from Sunni, so whatever they consider right/wrong, is not NECESSARILY to be right/wrong from sunni perspective (I am not telling who is correct, shia or sunni, I am only stating the facts). Yamanam ( talk) 17:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I reproduce here quotations from reliable sources that would point to a difference in opinion between general Sunni and Wahhabi on the veneration of graves, etc. It seems that mainstream Sunnis can tolerate pilgrimage to holy sites. On the other hand, Wahhabis take a radical position on the subject.
The following singles out Salafis, not Sunnis in general, for the destruction and stifling of veneration activity:
We can see that action taken against tombs and other historic mosques and sites did not occur under Sunnis in general. In fact, it floursihed. Destruction only happened under the extreme Salafis or Wahhabis. Indeed, it was the Ottoman Empire of the moderate Sunni Hanafi school, which renovated the baqi after its first destruction. Chesdovi ( talk) 00:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Concerning your question: Please explain why only sites have been destroyed by the Sunni in Saudi Arabia, but not in any other Sunni Muslim country? it is a very good question, and it is valid, the answer would be, Saudi Arabi is one of the very few countries who applies the Islamic law, they cut off the hand of the thief, they use death punishment for MARRIED Muslims who commit adultery, AND they destroy places (any places) that certain Muslims (whether Sunni or Shia) venerate, because it is prohibted in Islam. Yamanam ( talk) 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Sunnis are not followers of Wahhabism, it's a heretic cult: "Orthodox Sunni scholars oppose Wahhabism
I end this article with a selected list of orthodox Sunni scholars who have refuted Wahhabism and warned Muslims from its poison. The list of scholars, along with names of their books and related information, is quoted from the orthodox Sunni scholar Muhammad Hisham Kabbani[12]:
...
Dahlan, al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zayni (d. 1304/1886). Mufti of Mecca and Shaykh al-Islam (highest religious authority in the Ottoman jurisdiction) for the Hijaz region: al-Durar al-saniyyah fi al-radd ala al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Pure Pearls in Answering the Wahhabis"] pub. Egypt 1319 & 1347 H; Fitnat al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Wahhabi Fitna"]; Khulasat al-Kalam fi bayan Umara' al-Balad al-Haram ["The Summation Concerning the Leaders of the Sacrosanct Country"], a history of the Wahhabi fitna in Najd and the Hijaz.
al-Dajwi, Hamd Allah: al-Basa'ir li Munkiri al-tawassul ka amthal Muhd. Ibn `Abdul Wahhab ["The Evident Proofs Against Those Who Deny the Seeking of Intercession Like Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Wahhab"].
Shaykh al-Islam Dawud ibn Sulayman al-Baghdadi al-Hanafi (1815-1881 CE): al-Minha al-Wahbiyya fi radd al-Wahhabiyya ["The Divine Dispensation Concerning the Wahhabi Deviation"]; Ashadd al-Jihad fi Ibtal Da`wa al-Ijtihad ["The Most Violent Jihad in Proving False Those Who Falsely Claim Ijtihad"].
....
Al-Kabbani, Muhammad Hisham, Encyclopedia of Islamic Doctrine, vol. 1-7, As-Sunnah Foundation of America, 1998. _____, Islamic Beliefs and Doctrine According to Ahl as-Sunna - A Repudiation of "Salafi" Innovations, ASFA, 1996. _____, Innovation and True Belief: the Celebration of Mawlid According to the Qur'an and Sunna and the Scholars of Islam, ASFA, 1995. _____, Salafi Movement Unveiled, ASFA, 1997.
... Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab al-Najdi, `Allama al-Shaykh Sulayman, elder brother of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab: al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["Divine Lightnings in Answering the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Ibrahim Muhammad al-Batawi. Cairo: Dar al-insan, 1987. Offset reprint by Waqf Ikhlas, Istanbul: Hakikat Kitabevi, 1994. Prefaces by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi`i and Shaykh Muhammad Hayyan al-Sindi (Muhammad Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab's shaykh) to the effect that Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is "dall mudill" ("misguided and misguiding").
... Ibn `Afaliq al-Hanbali, Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Rahman: Tahakkum al-muqallidin bi man idda`a tajdid al-din [Sarcasm of the muqallids against the false claimants to the Renewal of Religion]. A very comprehensive book refuting the Wahhabi heresy and posting questions which Ibn `Abdul Wahhab and his followers were unable to answer for the most part. ..." http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Wahhabiarticleedit.htm Streamfortyseven ( talk) 20:38, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
One more thing, non Muslims are not in place to judge about Islam and destruction of such sites, only Muslims are in that place, if you want to add there quotes make so and refer that this is a non-Muslim opinion, don't mix it in the content of the article. Another thing, What Muslims acts are not necessarily part of the Islamic law, otherwise, it would be safe to say that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do NOT prohibt Adultery, depending on the fact that some followers of those religions do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamanam ( talk • contribs) 03:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
shouldn't a few qualifiers such as some be used rather than the misleading blanket "Sunni"... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 14:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I have not forgotten about you, oh holy sites! Chesdovi ( talk) 23:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Can see that this has already been discussed but I feel I must add an off-topic tag to Cyprus and Jerusalem. In the case of Cyprus the inter-communal violence is more likely to be the cause of damage to a mosque. It is out of the Saudi jurisdiction and therefore the only possibility of it being suitable for the Article is if it were suspected of being perpetrated by the Saudi security services or perhaps a Wahhabist fanatic.
(I should also stress that the inter-communal violence I mentioned can mean that a Turkish-Cypriot attempted to destroy the Mosque as much as a Greek-Cypriot; there have been recent confessions in Turkey by Generals who acted as agents-provocateur .)
In the case of Jerusalem also earthquakes have even less to do with it Eugene-elgato ( talk) 22:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The section "Under Threat" looks to be a cut and paste job from one of the article's sources [1] Bonewah ( talk) 21:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mecca-for-the-rich-islams-holiest-site-turning-into-vegas-2360114.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
It appears there was a lot of debate about the direction of this article. Considering the controversial nature of the subject, I have two suggestions which I think might placate editors and readers no matter what their views:
With the above in mind, I will remove anything which is either unsourced or sourced only by primary sources. We can then build the article back up based on the above suggestions. I hope this is found acceptable to my fellow editors. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 10:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I reject your suggestions.Wikipedia has its own policies regarding verifiable and neutral source.You can't supersede it.Only two publications can't be taken as source.Article matter is not disputed,rather very clear and simple.
Shabiha (
talk) 10:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Although the change of name from Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites to Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia was done almost 3 months ago but somehow I noticed it today only. There would have been some or the other logic behind the move but IMHO current title is not very appropriate. My opinion is constructed due to following reasons:
So, we may do following
But I think it is better we revert back to original namespace Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites and expand it further including recent detruction outside KSA.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 10:57, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
So I take it that the issue the Saudis have is that they feel that people are paying too much attention and putting too much faith in Mohammad and his descendants, at the risk of committing idolatry? Basically the same issue as Catholics "venerating" saints and the Virgin Mary, which many people see as basically worshiping them, which can be therefore construed as idolatry? AnnaGoFast ( talk) 20:23, 20 January 2016 (UTC) yup, for them it would be like christian seeing orthodox idols but in worse — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.155.61 ( talk) 16:58, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
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Is early islamic history showing different things than islamic dogma claims?
80.131.53.82 ( talk) 01:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
This sentence " In 1803 and 1804, the Saudis captured Mecca and Medina and destroyed historical monuments and various holy Muslim sites and shrines, such as the shrine built over the tomb of Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad, and even intended to destroy the grave of Muhammad himself as idolatrous, causing outrage throughout the Muslim world." cites three links. The first is no longer working (even the archived version comes up blank), the other two do not support this sentence. Should we remove? NutellaPancake ( talk) -- Preceding undated comment added 21:13, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of an educational assignment supported by WikiProject United States Public Policy and the Wikipedia Ambassador Program. |
I think that the title of this article is misleading and promotes for a POV. I think it needs to be changed, I will sleep on it and try to come up with a more relevant title, but i don't think that this title is correct.
Yamanam (
talk) 15:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Looks to me like several names in the article deserve links and lack them. It's OK to link something that does not yet have an article, as long as it should have one. - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a "see also" to Excavations of Al-Aqsa Mosque? Seems tendentious to me. Al-Aqsa Mosque does not date back to this period, and no one is destroying it (although there are certainly a few millennialist Jews and perhaps Christians who would like to). The only tie I see - and the one that makes me consider it a tendentious inclusion - is that some Muslims, according to the article, hold Jews responsible for what is happening in Mecca and Medina, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in territory controlled (illegally annexed, in my view, but that is neither here nor there) by Israel.
If we are going to include that, it would be no more (and no less) tendentious to include Buddhas of Bamyan. I say don't include either one. - Jmabel | Talk 21:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is of a sensitive nature, therefor, additions made thereof should be done with extreme cautious. For instance, it is against the whole SUNNI doctrine to venerate any historical site not mentioned in Quran or Hadith, not only Wahhabi doctrine, this is one. Two, Shia are different, in many terms, from Sunni, so whatever they consider right/wrong, is not NECESSARILY to be right/wrong from sunni perspective (I am not telling who is correct, shia or sunni, I am only stating the facts). Yamanam ( talk) 17:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I reproduce here quotations from reliable sources that would point to a difference in opinion between general Sunni and Wahhabi on the veneration of graves, etc. It seems that mainstream Sunnis can tolerate pilgrimage to holy sites. On the other hand, Wahhabis take a radical position on the subject.
The following singles out Salafis, not Sunnis in general, for the destruction and stifling of veneration activity:
We can see that action taken against tombs and other historic mosques and sites did not occur under Sunnis in general. In fact, it floursihed. Destruction only happened under the extreme Salafis or Wahhabis. Indeed, it was the Ottoman Empire of the moderate Sunni Hanafi school, which renovated the baqi after its first destruction. Chesdovi ( talk) 00:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Concerning your question: Please explain why only sites have been destroyed by the Sunni in Saudi Arabia, but not in any other Sunni Muslim country? it is a very good question, and it is valid, the answer would be, Saudi Arabi is one of the very few countries who applies the Islamic law, they cut off the hand of the thief, they use death punishment for MARRIED Muslims who commit adultery, AND they destroy places (any places) that certain Muslims (whether Sunni or Shia) venerate, because it is prohibted in Islam. Yamanam ( talk) 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Sunnis are not followers of Wahhabism, it's a heretic cult: "Orthodox Sunni scholars oppose Wahhabism
I end this article with a selected list of orthodox Sunni scholars who have refuted Wahhabism and warned Muslims from its poison. The list of scholars, along with names of their books and related information, is quoted from the orthodox Sunni scholar Muhammad Hisham Kabbani[12]:
...
Dahlan, al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zayni (d. 1304/1886). Mufti of Mecca and Shaykh al-Islam (highest religious authority in the Ottoman jurisdiction) for the Hijaz region: al-Durar al-saniyyah fi al-radd ala al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Pure Pearls in Answering the Wahhabis"] pub. Egypt 1319 & 1347 H; Fitnat al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Wahhabi Fitna"]; Khulasat al-Kalam fi bayan Umara' al-Balad al-Haram ["The Summation Concerning the Leaders of the Sacrosanct Country"], a history of the Wahhabi fitna in Najd and the Hijaz.
al-Dajwi, Hamd Allah: al-Basa'ir li Munkiri al-tawassul ka amthal Muhd. Ibn `Abdul Wahhab ["The Evident Proofs Against Those Who Deny the Seeking of Intercession Like Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Wahhab"].
Shaykh al-Islam Dawud ibn Sulayman al-Baghdadi al-Hanafi (1815-1881 CE): al-Minha al-Wahbiyya fi radd al-Wahhabiyya ["The Divine Dispensation Concerning the Wahhabi Deviation"]; Ashadd al-Jihad fi Ibtal Da`wa al-Ijtihad ["The Most Violent Jihad in Proving False Those Who Falsely Claim Ijtihad"].
....
Al-Kabbani, Muhammad Hisham, Encyclopedia of Islamic Doctrine, vol. 1-7, As-Sunnah Foundation of America, 1998. _____, Islamic Beliefs and Doctrine According to Ahl as-Sunna - A Repudiation of "Salafi" Innovations, ASFA, 1996. _____, Innovation and True Belief: the Celebration of Mawlid According to the Qur'an and Sunna and the Scholars of Islam, ASFA, 1995. _____, Salafi Movement Unveiled, ASFA, 1997.
... Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab al-Najdi, `Allama al-Shaykh Sulayman, elder brother of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab: al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["Divine Lightnings in Answering the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Ibrahim Muhammad al-Batawi. Cairo: Dar al-insan, 1987. Offset reprint by Waqf Ikhlas, Istanbul: Hakikat Kitabevi, 1994. Prefaces by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi`i and Shaykh Muhammad Hayyan al-Sindi (Muhammad Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab's shaykh) to the effect that Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is "dall mudill" ("misguided and misguiding").
... Ibn `Afaliq al-Hanbali, Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Rahman: Tahakkum al-muqallidin bi man idda`a tajdid al-din [Sarcasm of the muqallids against the false claimants to the Renewal of Religion]. A very comprehensive book refuting the Wahhabi heresy and posting questions which Ibn `Abdul Wahhab and his followers were unable to answer for the most part. ..." http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Wahhabiarticleedit.htm Streamfortyseven ( talk) 20:38, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
One more thing, non Muslims are not in place to judge about Islam and destruction of such sites, only Muslims are in that place, if you want to add there quotes make so and refer that this is a non-Muslim opinion, don't mix it in the content of the article. Another thing, What Muslims acts are not necessarily part of the Islamic law, otherwise, it would be safe to say that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do NOT prohibt Adultery, depending on the fact that some followers of those religions do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamanam ( talk • contribs) 03:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
shouldn't a few qualifiers such as some be used rather than the misleading blanket "Sunni"... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 14:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I have not forgotten about you, oh holy sites! Chesdovi ( talk) 23:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Can see that this has already been discussed but I feel I must add an off-topic tag to Cyprus and Jerusalem. In the case of Cyprus the inter-communal violence is more likely to be the cause of damage to a mosque. It is out of the Saudi jurisdiction and therefore the only possibility of it being suitable for the Article is if it were suspected of being perpetrated by the Saudi security services or perhaps a Wahhabist fanatic.
(I should also stress that the inter-communal violence I mentioned can mean that a Turkish-Cypriot attempted to destroy the Mosque as much as a Greek-Cypriot; there have been recent confessions in Turkey by Generals who acted as agents-provocateur .)
In the case of Jerusalem also earthquakes have even less to do with it Eugene-elgato ( talk) 22:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The section "Under Threat" looks to be a cut and paste job from one of the article's sources [1] Bonewah ( talk) 21:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mecca-for-the-rich-islams-holiest-site-turning-into-vegas-2360114.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
It appears there was a lot of debate about the direction of this article. Considering the controversial nature of the subject, I have two suggestions which I think might placate editors and readers no matter what their views:
With the above in mind, I will remove anything which is either unsourced or sourced only by primary sources. We can then build the article back up based on the above suggestions. I hope this is found acceptable to my fellow editors. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 10:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I reject your suggestions.Wikipedia has its own policies regarding verifiable and neutral source.You can't supersede it.Only two publications can't be taken as source.Article matter is not disputed,rather very clear and simple.
Shabiha (
talk) 10:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Although the change of name from Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites to Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia was done almost 3 months ago but somehow I noticed it today only. There would have been some or the other logic behind the move but IMHO current title is not very appropriate. My opinion is constructed due to following reasons:
So, we may do following
But I think it is better we revert back to original namespace Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites and expand it further including recent detruction outside KSA.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 10:57, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
So I take it that the issue the Saudis have is that they feel that people are paying too much attention and putting too much faith in Mohammad and his descendants, at the risk of committing idolatry? Basically the same issue as Catholics "venerating" saints and the Virgin Mary, which many people see as basically worshiping them, which can be therefore construed as idolatry? AnnaGoFast ( talk) 20:23, 20 January 2016 (UTC) yup, for them it would be like christian seeing orthodox idols but in worse — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.155.61 ( talk) 16:58, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
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Is early islamic history showing different things than islamic dogma claims?
80.131.53.82 ( talk) 01:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
This sentence " In 1803 and 1804, the Saudis captured Mecca and Medina and destroyed historical monuments and various holy Muslim sites and shrines, such as the shrine built over the tomb of Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad, and even intended to destroy the grave of Muhammad himself as idolatrous, causing outrage throughout the Muslim world." cites three links. The first is no longer working (even the archived version comes up blank), the other two do not support this sentence. Should we remove? NutellaPancake ( talk) -- Preceding undated comment added 21:13, 20 March 2024 (UTC)