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An editor has decided to cut reference to the correct names of units in this article saying at [1] "ANZAC matches sources there is no consensus to use any other form and mounted is not used at all after first use for ease of reading" However MILHIST discussion group agreed twice, that ANZAC was confusing as the corps had been disbanded in 1916 and the mounted division needed to be distinguished. The editor has cut reference to "mounted" in the name of the three divisions and other brigades, "for ease of reading." This results in Anzac Division, Australian Division, and Yeomanry Divisions, which don't correctly identify the divisions, adding to confusion when Yeomanry infantry divisions are also referred to. -- Rskp ( talk) 03:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
"Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division was, in practice, too cumbersome a name, so "Anzac Mounted Division" came into use. The all caps usage is muddle headed. This is the consensus of military historians and I see no reason not to follow. (Aside: I have never seen a class that knew what an "Army Corps" is.) Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)" Can you please reinstate the full names of the units of the DMC? -- Rskp ( talk) 01:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Due to the over reliance on one source, there is a completely unbalanced description of the service history of the corps. This subsection makes up the vast bulk of the article and except for five citations, two of which are from the London Gazette, the 100 other citations are for Preston's 1921 publication. -- Rskp ( talk) 04:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
[moved from RoslynSKP's talk page] Roslyn; Just another note that you're close to breaching WP:3RR at Desert Mounted Corps. Once again, any further reverts within the next 24-hours or so will be passed to WP:3RRNB so you are advised to keep to the article's talk page and to stop war editing as of immediate effect.
Please do not cut/paste notices such as this on the article's talk page. They relate solely to your own behaviour and are not relevant to improving the content of the article which talk pages are designed for.
Ma®©usBritish{ chat} 04:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't see that this a question of POV, it is one arguably more about sourcing so I have removed the template. That said while the article does use Preston heavily, as the history of the unit this does seem appropriate to me. Roslyn - if you believe this article has issues with POV pls outline those issues in full on the talk page. Merely reverting and not substantiating the issues you see is unconstructive and given you have made similar edits in a number of other articles this is starting to look like disruptive / harassing behavior. Anotherclown ( talk) 09:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Although many of the sources refer to the Turkish army etc., at the time it was the Ottoman army as Turkey did not come into existence until after the war. So "Turkish defences" should be Ottoman defences. -- Rskp ( talk) 01:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
On a couple of occasions I have tried to improve the style, tone, cohesion etc of this article, but these attempts have not been allowed to stand, so I have added the copyedit tag. -- Rskp ( talk) 02:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The Anzac Mounted Division, the Australian Mounted Division and the Yeomanry Mounted Division have been abbreviated in this article to the Anzac Division, the Australian Division and the Yeomanry Division. The 5th and 7th Mounted Brigades have been abbreviated to the 5th and 7th Brigades. The editor claims "mounted is not used at all after first use for ease of reading." The names should be reinstated. -- Rskp ( talk) 06:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
The sources quoted in this subsection describe the division four months after its formation, so this heading in inaccurate. -- Rskp ( talk) 03:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide an article about a unit or formation should consist of -
The opening paragraph (or lead section) should concisely convey:
The formal name of the unit, its abbreviation, and its nickname(s). What is the unit's country or allegiance? What service (Air Force, Army, or Navy) was the unit part of? When was it formed? If the unit no longer exists, when was it disbanded or deactivated? In what notable battles, operations, or wars did the unit participate?
The article can be structured along these lines:
The unit's history. Why was it formed? Who formed it? Where and how has the unit served in peacetime and war? Who has commanded it? If the unit still exists, where is it now? What higher-level formation is the unit assigned to, if any? What is its current role? The unit's traditions. What mascots does it have? What anniversaries does it celebrate? What gallantry awards (such as the Medal of Honor, Param Vir Chakra, or Victoria Cross) have been awarded to members of the unit? What unit awards (such as battle honours or presidential citations) has the unit received?
There is no requirement for a Service history. -- Rskp ( talk) 04:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide an article about a unit or formation requires a description of its formation. This was added here [2] but was cut here [3] -- Rskp ( talk) 04:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
"Between General Murray's recall in early June, and the arrival of Allenby late in June 1917, Chetwode as commander of Eastern Force gave Chauvel as commander of Desert Column, oversight for the establishment of the Yeomanry Mounted Division, made possible by the arrival of the 7th and 8th Mounted Brigades from Salonika.[ref Hill 1978 p. 116 ref ref name="Falls357">Falls 1930 Vol. 1 p. 357 ref ref name="Keogh125–6">Keogh 1955 pp. 125–6] [ref group="Note" It may have been Murray, who decided on the establishment of the third mounted division, but the brigades did not arrive until after Murray had been recalled. The reorganisation of Desert Column was complete before Allenby arrived at the end of the month. [Falls 1930 Vol. 1 p. 357] ] The decision to transfer the 7th and 8th Mounted Brigades from Macedonia in May and June 1917, recognised the "value of mounted troops on this front."[ref name="Falls357"] However in May 1917 a lieutenant in the 5th Mounted Brigade opined:
quote|Cavalry warfare is about over I think ... They can't say we haven't done our share – we have taken every inch of ground this side of Kantara ... and I should think I have ridden on an average the whole distance at least three times – the infantry have simply followed us up. Lieutenant R.H. Wilson, Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry (5th Mounted Brigade), 21 May 1917 [Paget 1994 p. 108]
On 21 June, the Imperial Mounted Division became the Australian Mounted Division still commanded by Hodgson. On 26 June the 6th Mounted Brigade was transferred from the Australian Mounted Division, and the 22nd Mounted Brigade from the Anzac Mounted Division, and along with the recently arrived 8th Mounted Brigade, formed the Yeomanry Mounted Division. Commanded by Major General G. de S. Barrow, who had also just arrived from France. The 7th Mounted Brigade's two regiments were attached to Desert Column troops. [Falls 1930 Vol. 1 p. 357, Vol. 2 pp. 661–2 Australian Mounted Division Train War Diary 21, 26 June 1917 AWM4-25-20-1 3rd Light Horse Brigade War Diary June 1917 AWM 4-25-20-1] [ref group="Note" The 7th Mounted Brigade consisting of two regiments with the Essex Battery RHA was commanded directly by Chetwode's Eastern Force headquarters. [Wavell 1968 p. 91] Army Troops became a regular attachment to Desert Column. [Bou 2009 p. 165] Army Troops also included the Imperial Camel Corps Brigade supported by Australian Camel Field Ambulance from 2 June 1917. [Bou 2009 p. 165, Downes 1938 pp. 629–30] ]
Desert Column was reorganised from two mounted divisions of four brigades, into three mounted divisions of three brigades:
Allenby indicated to Robertson on 12 July, that he planned to reorganise the EEF into two infantry and one mounted corps, "all three directly under General Headquarters." [Allenby to Robertson 12 July 1917 in Hughes 2004 p. 35] The structure of the EEF, would resemble the organisation of the force Allenby had commanded in France, which had reflected contemporary British combat doctrine, in the middle of 1917. [Erickson 2007 pp. 112–3 Grainger 2006 pp. 239–40] Further, in order for him to directly command these corps in the field, Allenby created two EEF headquarters. His battle headquarters was established near Khan Yunis, while the remainder of his headquarters staff stayed in Cairo, "to deal with the political and administrative questions involved in the control of Egypt and the administration of martial law." [Allenby to Robertson 12 July 1917 in Hughes 2004 p. 35]
On 12 August a conventional corps headquarters, designated the XX Corps and commanded by Lieutenant General P. W. Chetwode (formerly commanding Eastern Force) replaced Eastern Force. The headquarters of the XXI Corps commanded by Lieutenant General E. S. Bulfin (arrived from Salonika as officer commanding the 60th (London) Division) was formed, while the headquarters of Desert Column was renamed Desert Mounted Corps commanded by Lieutenant General H. G. Chauvel (previously commanding Desert Column).[Cutlack 1941 pp. 63–4 Hill 1978 p. 118 Falls 1930 Vol. 2 p. 16]" -- Rskp ( talk) 02:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
As the oob changes radically from October 1917 to September 1918, the main battles have been added to help readers differentiate between the two very different organisations of the corps, but these have been cut repeatedly. -- Rskp ( talk) 04:38, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Despite reinstating the following units of Desert Mounted Corps in this article, it has been repeatedly cut.
Chaytor's Force commanded by Major General Edward Chaytor, was briefly detached for operations in the Jordan Valley and Transjordan.
This information was cut on 9 September here [5] the editor claiming that "linked article no need to detail" these Desert Mounted Corps units. But DMC is what the article is about so I undid that edit the next day, here [6] saying "reinstate info as all the units in the force were part of DMC the force only operating independently for a matter of weeks." This was undone on 12 September here [7] saying "No need to repeat." But the names of these units don't appear anywhere else in the article. -- Rskp ( talk) 01:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I just started the article on Umm Safa. Checking "what links here", brought me to this article. However, I cannot find anything about Umm Safa on the page given, Preston, 1921, p. 110...or anywhere else in the book. What am I missing? Huldra ( talk) 21:50, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Desert Mounted Corps article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
An editor has decided to cut reference to the correct names of units in this article saying at [1] "ANZAC matches sources there is no consensus to use any other form and mounted is not used at all after first use for ease of reading" However MILHIST discussion group agreed twice, that ANZAC was confusing as the corps had been disbanded in 1916 and the mounted division needed to be distinguished. The editor has cut reference to "mounted" in the name of the three divisions and other brigades, "for ease of reading." This results in Anzac Division, Australian Division, and Yeomanry Divisions, which don't correctly identify the divisions, adding to confusion when Yeomanry infantry divisions are also referred to. -- Rskp ( talk) 03:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
"Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division was, in practice, too cumbersome a name, so "Anzac Mounted Division" came into use. The all caps usage is muddle headed. This is the consensus of military historians and I see no reason not to follow. (Aside: I have never seen a class that knew what an "Army Corps" is.) Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)" Can you please reinstate the full names of the units of the DMC? -- Rskp ( talk) 01:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Due to the over reliance on one source, there is a completely unbalanced description of the service history of the corps. This subsection makes up the vast bulk of the article and except for five citations, two of which are from the London Gazette, the 100 other citations are for Preston's 1921 publication. -- Rskp ( talk) 04:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
[moved from RoslynSKP's talk page] Roslyn; Just another note that you're close to breaching WP:3RR at Desert Mounted Corps. Once again, any further reverts within the next 24-hours or so will be passed to WP:3RRNB so you are advised to keep to the article's talk page and to stop war editing as of immediate effect.
Please do not cut/paste notices such as this on the article's talk page. They relate solely to your own behaviour and are not relevant to improving the content of the article which talk pages are designed for.
Ma®©usBritish{ chat} 04:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't see that this a question of POV, it is one arguably more about sourcing so I have removed the template. That said while the article does use Preston heavily, as the history of the unit this does seem appropriate to me. Roslyn - if you believe this article has issues with POV pls outline those issues in full on the talk page. Merely reverting and not substantiating the issues you see is unconstructive and given you have made similar edits in a number of other articles this is starting to look like disruptive / harassing behavior. Anotherclown ( talk) 09:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Although many of the sources refer to the Turkish army etc., at the time it was the Ottoman army as Turkey did not come into existence until after the war. So "Turkish defences" should be Ottoman defences. -- Rskp ( talk) 01:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
On a couple of occasions I have tried to improve the style, tone, cohesion etc of this article, but these attempts have not been allowed to stand, so I have added the copyedit tag. -- Rskp ( talk) 02:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The Anzac Mounted Division, the Australian Mounted Division and the Yeomanry Mounted Division have been abbreviated in this article to the Anzac Division, the Australian Division and the Yeomanry Division. The 5th and 7th Mounted Brigades have been abbreviated to the 5th and 7th Brigades. The editor claims "mounted is not used at all after first use for ease of reading." The names should be reinstated. -- Rskp ( talk) 06:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
The sources quoted in this subsection describe the division four months after its formation, so this heading in inaccurate. -- Rskp ( talk) 03:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide an article about a unit or formation should consist of -
The opening paragraph (or lead section) should concisely convey:
The formal name of the unit, its abbreviation, and its nickname(s). What is the unit's country or allegiance? What service (Air Force, Army, or Navy) was the unit part of? When was it formed? If the unit no longer exists, when was it disbanded or deactivated? In what notable battles, operations, or wars did the unit participate?
The article can be structured along these lines:
The unit's history. Why was it formed? Who formed it? Where and how has the unit served in peacetime and war? Who has commanded it? If the unit still exists, where is it now? What higher-level formation is the unit assigned to, if any? What is its current role? The unit's traditions. What mascots does it have? What anniversaries does it celebrate? What gallantry awards (such as the Medal of Honor, Param Vir Chakra, or Victoria Cross) have been awarded to members of the unit? What unit awards (such as battle honours or presidential citations) has the unit received?
There is no requirement for a Service history. -- Rskp ( talk) 04:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide an article about a unit or formation requires a description of its formation. This was added here [2] but was cut here [3] -- Rskp ( talk) 04:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
"Between General Murray's recall in early June, and the arrival of Allenby late in June 1917, Chetwode as commander of Eastern Force gave Chauvel as commander of Desert Column, oversight for the establishment of the Yeomanry Mounted Division, made possible by the arrival of the 7th and 8th Mounted Brigades from Salonika.[ref Hill 1978 p. 116 ref ref name="Falls357">Falls 1930 Vol. 1 p. 357 ref ref name="Keogh125–6">Keogh 1955 pp. 125–6] [ref group="Note" It may have been Murray, who decided on the establishment of the third mounted division, but the brigades did not arrive until after Murray had been recalled. The reorganisation of Desert Column was complete before Allenby arrived at the end of the month. [Falls 1930 Vol. 1 p. 357] ] The decision to transfer the 7th and 8th Mounted Brigades from Macedonia in May and June 1917, recognised the "value of mounted troops on this front."[ref name="Falls357"] However in May 1917 a lieutenant in the 5th Mounted Brigade opined:
quote|Cavalry warfare is about over I think ... They can't say we haven't done our share – we have taken every inch of ground this side of Kantara ... and I should think I have ridden on an average the whole distance at least three times – the infantry have simply followed us up. Lieutenant R.H. Wilson, Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry (5th Mounted Brigade), 21 May 1917 [Paget 1994 p. 108]
On 21 June, the Imperial Mounted Division became the Australian Mounted Division still commanded by Hodgson. On 26 June the 6th Mounted Brigade was transferred from the Australian Mounted Division, and the 22nd Mounted Brigade from the Anzac Mounted Division, and along with the recently arrived 8th Mounted Brigade, formed the Yeomanry Mounted Division. Commanded by Major General G. de S. Barrow, who had also just arrived from France. The 7th Mounted Brigade's two regiments were attached to Desert Column troops. [Falls 1930 Vol. 1 p. 357, Vol. 2 pp. 661–2 Australian Mounted Division Train War Diary 21, 26 June 1917 AWM4-25-20-1 3rd Light Horse Brigade War Diary June 1917 AWM 4-25-20-1] [ref group="Note" The 7th Mounted Brigade consisting of two regiments with the Essex Battery RHA was commanded directly by Chetwode's Eastern Force headquarters. [Wavell 1968 p. 91] Army Troops became a regular attachment to Desert Column. [Bou 2009 p. 165] Army Troops also included the Imperial Camel Corps Brigade supported by Australian Camel Field Ambulance from 2 June 1917. [Bou 2009 p. 165, Downes 1938 pp. 629–30] ]
Desert Column was reorganised from two mounted divisions of four brigades, into three mounted divisions of three brigades:
Allenby indicated to Robertson on 12 July, that he planned to reorganise the EEF into two infantry and one mounted corps, "all three directly under General Headquarters." [Allenby to Robertson 12 July 1917 in Hughes 2004 p. 35] The structure of the EEF, would resemble the organisation of the force Allenby had commanded in France, which had reflected contemporary British combat doctrine, in the middle of 1917. [Erickson 2007 pp. 112–3 Grainger 2006 pp. 239–40] Further, in order for him to directly command these corps in the field, Allenby created two EEF headquarters. His battle headquarters was established near Khan Yunis, while the remainder of his headquarters staff stayed in Cairo, "to deal with the political and administrative questions involved in the control of Egypt and the administration of martial law." [Allenby to Robertson 12 July 1917 in Hughes 2004 p. 35]
On 12 August a conventional corps headquarters, designated the XX Corps and commanded by Lieutenant General P. W. Chetwode (formerly commanding Eastern Force) replaced Eastern Force. The headquarters of the XXI Corps commanded by Lieutenant General E. S. Bulfin (arrived from Salonika as officer commanding the 60th (London) Division) was formed, while the headquarters of Desert Column was renamed Desert Mounted Corps commanded by Lieutenant General H. G. Chauvel (previously commanding Desert Column).[Cutlack 1941 pp. 63–4 Hill 1978 p. 118 Falls 1930 Vol. 2 p. 16]" -- Rskp ( talk) 02:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
As the oob changes radically from October 1917 to September 1918, the main battles have been added to help readers differentiate between the two very different organisations of the corps, but these have been cut repeatedly. -- Rskp ( talk) 04:38, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Despite reinstating the following units of Desert Mounted Corps in this article, it has been repeatedly cut.
Chaytor's Force commanded by Major General Edward Chaytor, was briefly detached for operations in the Jordan Valley and Transjordan.
This information was cut on 9 September here [5] the editor claiming that "linked article no need to detail" these Desert Mounted Corps units. But DMC is what the article is about so I undid that edit the next day, here [6] saying "reinstate info as all the units in the force were part of DMC the force only operating independently for a matter of weeks." This was undone on 12 September here [7] saying "No need to repeat." But the names of these units don't appear anywhere else in the article. -- Rskp ( talk) 01:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I just started the article on Umm Safa. Checking "what links here", brought me to this article. However, I cannot find anything about Umm Safa on the page given, Preston, 1921, p. 110...or anywhere else in the book. What am I missing? Huldra ( talk) 21:50, 26 June 2018 (UTC)