![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.
Is it just me or does all this constant renaming of the two Londonderry/Derry articles from one name to another strike anyone else as a little childish?
Clearly we need a compromise everyone can live with. I suggest we call the county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry". Or vice versa if anyone has a strong reason to prefer it the other way.
The explanation at the start of each article that there are two names should of course be kept.
No-one is going to win a renaming war and it makes the encyclopedia look pretty unproffessional. - Ikari (3 Mar, 2004).
I would certainly go for county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry" if there is to be a compromise. The county has only been "Londonderry" officially, while the town/city has been "Derry" originally, "Londonderry" in its city charter, and "Derry" in its district council name so 2-1 to "Derry". It doesn't matter much, but stability would be sensible. -- Henrygb 17:58, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm of Irish republican descent and live in northeast England. "Londonderry", as a coal mine owning family and as a place, are anathema to me. Nevertheless when on wikipedia NPOV means I expect to use "Londonderry" when referring to the County or City in Northern Ireland. The city's local government has changed its name to "Derry City Council" but cannot (sadly (my POV)) change the name of the area. garryq 09:28, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Given that "Derry" is not the official name, it should not be used in the article title. "Londonderry" is NPOV, "Derry" is not. -- Emsworth 17:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Incidentally, to offer my opinion on the above "compromise": whilst the efforts to reach a consensus are laudable, we cannot arbitrarily decide an unofficial name is to be used. Londonderry is in the United Kingdom; therefore, we should go by the name used by the British government. The Republic of Ireland may purport to determine the city's name, but doing so would be similar to the UK deciding that County Offaly should be known as King's County. -- Emsworth 21:08, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The City/district split is an interesting name - except that the official name of the local government district is Derry City Council. Try disambiguating that one... Gerry Lynch 09:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Derry has of course been at the top of the news today because of the floods. The BBC refered to the city as Derry throughout. I hope this data point is useful. Pcb21| Pete 23:14, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It should be noted that someone a few years back won a court case to get a parking ticket killed because it had "Londonderry" down as the city name, and the UK courts system ruled it didn't exist. I can probably dig up the article about it, I think it was after ireland.com started archiving. I think the fact that the UK courts system acknowledges the city is Derry and the county is Londonderry should set the precedent for whats done here
Here in the Republic all signposts pointing to it refer to "Derry" and that is what we call it. We just cannot use the name "Londonderry" because the term "London" being added to the old "Derry/Doire" name just feels too colonial - regardless of what the constitutional position of NI might be. Many Unionists in the North also call it Derry....except when the cameras are around of course. Even so, wikipedia is for everyone so leave it as Derry/Londonderry I suppose. And roll on the referendum! Peter O'Connell
The name 'Derry' was given to the city by the London traders, an anglicized version of the then village Irish name 'Doire' or 'Daire'. The Apprentice Boys of Derry and First Derry Presbyterian Church use the name of 'Derry' instead of 'Londonderry' due to the fact they where set up before the City adopted the name 'Londonderry' under the Royal Charter in the early 1700's. Thought presencently I see no resonse why the full irish version of 'Londonderry' of 'Londaindhoire' can not be aspect along with 'Doire', if people can aspect Derry/Londonderry why then is Doire/Londaindhoire not also given the same respect. The 'L' word as you mention was adopted by the council and the citizens of the city at that time, many of whom's descendent still life within the city. The name is nothing to colonialism as Ireland was never fully given colonial status, rather was allowed to keep it own Irish Parliament, and large self-government, until 1801. Even after 1801, Dublin was given more attention than Edinburgh or Cardiff. Ireland was not the same as Scotland and Wales, as they where directly control by westminister before and after 1801. Even today Nortern Ireland was the first of the three to recieve home rule from 1921 to 1972, and again from 1998 to 2005, and 2007 onwards, similar to the system of devolution for Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland has more MLA's than Wales has MA's and Northern Ireland has just over have the population size that Wales does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.22.121 ( talk) 01:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
The original compromise was to use Derry for the page title and County Londonderry for the county page title - it didn't cover the various terms in the article. I don't think anyone disagrees that officially before the walled city was built it was clearly Derry, then it was renamed Londonderry and still is in the city charter, but once Northern Ireland was divided into districts the local authority decided to call itself Derry City Council; local people understand both even if they use one or the other. It does look to me as if there is a trend towards some editors are pushing towards Derry excessively in the article and elsewhere, including in Template:IrishCities. Let's try to avoid a Gdansk/ Danzig position where one side tries to obliterate any mention of the other's preferred name even for historical events. -- Henrygb 01:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I`m of Irish descent, and I certainly don`t call the city by the name of "Londonderry" in conversation... for one, it just takes too long. All the same, the city and county of Londonderry are part of the UK, and according to the United Kingdom government the name of these two places are "Londonderry" - there is no debate here. Maybe before the changes to Articles 2 and 3 we could debate the idea under the notion that these cities are part of Ireland and that the Irish naming stands. But from now on, unless the city applies to have the city`s name changed officially... it is Londonderry. -- Ce garcon 05:11, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anyone know what this is? Googling is no help.
And yes, that is the city crest. Grim indeed.
zoney ♣ talk 00:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It has been reported [2]] that Derry City Council are inquirying into the legal status of the city name. Djegan 00:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some proposals (IMHO unsatisfactory) from compromise have been proposed here, but since both names are used (one offically and one by a majority of its citizens and the local authority whose district includes the city) why not call the article Derry/Londonderry to have no precendence (other than alphabetically) or even (London)Derry? Redirects from Derry and Londonderry can be made and there would be no controversy/naming POV in the article. Dainamo 16:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Could somebody explain to me why the people of Doire/Derry cannot just vote to change the name the coloniser put on their place? It is absolutely ridiculous that outsiders can determine the name of their place. It is time for the natives to wrest control of how they are represented from these British and their record-breaking egos.
I have attempted to put this article at Londonderry/Derry but someone put #REDIRECT Derry on it. Can an administrator please do this?
It was proposed below that Derry be renamed and moved to Londonderry/Derry - 195.188.51.5 11:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Score(Keep:22|Move:2)
Just a point, the place in Sligo you refer to is actually Derrymore, not Derry. The place in Wexford is Drumderry. Please take care to actually read the maps before referencing them inaccurately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.107.196.242 ( talk) 01:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
The name City of Derry strikes me as being a non-existent entity. It is the authority that holds the City Charter, which is Derry City Council making the district around the old walled city the City of Londonderry. Anything named Derry cannot be a city because it does not own a city charter. In it's current form this article is incorrect. Most people in Rochester still consider it a city but that doesn't change the reality that it isn't. It doesn't matter what popular opinion is in the city. They probably all want to stop paying taxes but it doesn't change the law. While you can call the article whatever you want the city name remains legally Londonderry. josh 03:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
You can start with no allowing popular opinion take priority over fact. Calling it City of Derry is equivalent to calling the council Londonderry City Council. I'm not concerned about what name is seen to be premoted although I prefer Derry over the hijacked version. The problem is that using the term City of Derry is unencyclopidic and condones the POV of the nationalists. Using City of Londonderry doesn't condone the unionist POV it is just the current status that coincides with it. josh 22:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The infobox is titled City of Derry. The sentence The name of the city is specified by its Royal Charter as Londonderry, and many unionists continue to call it Londonderry. also implies that the name Londonderry has been repealed by the councils decision to call itself Derry City Council. The article seems to purposely avoid the fact that the offical name of the city is Londonderry. By all means use Derry but it has to be made clear that while Derry is the popular name, Londonderry is the official one. josh 00:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the official name of the city is Londonderry. All nationalist and unionist preference aside, should we not be naming the article to fit the official name? A little web research informs me of the following:
While I am sure that a significant number of people (perhaps even a majority) refer to the city as Derry, the official name of the city remains Londonderry. Wikipedia might cover video games, TV series and websites, but it is still an encyclopaedia, and is relied upon for factual information by a great many people. The name of the article must reflect the official status of things. -- Jonathan Drain 01:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC) [5]
For what its worth, the Council website is WWW.DERRY.GOV.UK. The FAQ doesn't even mention the alternate name. My understanding is that the Council want to get their version recognised, but Stormont refuses to do so and Whitehall won't change the status quo. So it seems that there is a nice touch of mental gymnastics to reach compromise. The legal name is Londonderry, but only the name Derry will be used. So both sides are satisfied and both sides are dissatisfied. BtW, I notice that BBC articles always manage to use both forms in every article. So far, every Wiki article does too: the petty dispute seems to be which name shall be the main article and which shall be the redirect article? The present arrangement, where we have one of each (for the city and for the county), has been seen as equally unfair and the majority of people have accepted it without too many revert wars. I trust that anyone who wants to re-open the debate has read all the relevant articles going back at least 1000 years. One needs to learn the flickers of the eye that allows people to pass each other in the street without bumping. This is one. -- Red King 23:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Jonathan has a very valid point about other contributors being from the Republic. We must remember that Jtdirl, Kiand, Djegan, and Red King are all contributors from the Republic of Ireland and will inherently have at least an Irish bias (if not also a nationalist one). This point is again being ignored. I recall there was a vote a while ago (along with a lobbying campaign by Djegan) where a very large proportion of the voters ended up being from the Republic. jtdirl - you are very quick to assume bad faith, (something I note that you seem to do as a habit by also looking at your talk page) and seem to use the "NPOV" clause as one to back up your own POV. Perhaps this issue would be best solved by input by those from outside of Ireland. Jonto 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The official name is far too controversial to be used as the only name here. As mentioned, it was called "Londonderry" because it was colonised. The displaced people are now the majority in the city, and as such it is insensitive to them to just use "Londonderry". Also, the British Tory government in the 80's allowed the city council to call itself "Derry City Council". Equally, Unionists would resent it just being called Derry on wikipedia. Therefore, in the spirit of compromise call it Derry/Londonderry. Otherwise wikipedia's impartiality is under question. I would point out too that the Loyalist Apprentice Boys's official name is "Apprentice Boys of Derry", so they don't seem to mind calling it Derry sometimes. - Peter O'Connell
I just removed (and deleted) an image of Nadine Coyle from this article. It had no copyright information, the uploader's only contributions were uploading the image and putting it in this article, and an image of Nadine Coyle licensed under CC-SA exists at the Commons. If this page's regular contributors believe that an image of Coyle belongs in this article, the free image article is http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Girl_Aloud_1.jpg . Thanks for understaning. Jkelly 20:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "Derry/Londonderry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "Derry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Does anybody have a map of Derry city before and after gerrymandering with information on votes versus representation? Thanks.
Regarding recent edits by Lapsed Pacifist whilst some of them are clearly pov, I believe that the edit as of 20:50, 31 December 2005 is acceptable the only infraction being over linking. As for the removal of two people these people are clearly of County Londonderry and not the city, so should not be in this article. Anyone in agreement (with me) as I am reluctant to start a revert war in his favour (without consensus)? Djegan 21:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Regarding that website we do not place links on websites to maintain a "NPOV", I have no more intention of maintaing a nationalist or loyalist link - its simply linkspam not "personal views", dont attempt to take the moral high ground because you got burned here before - view the website, mostly links to otherwebsites and not substantial. Notwithstanding I will leave the link unless someone else removes it, but wikipedia is not a link farm either. Djegan 14:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The two names solution seems like a fair compromise at this point. However, it is almost certainly the wrong way round (I think anyone would tell you this, to be fair) - calling the city "Londonderry" and the county "Derry" would bring things much into line with actual usage.
Surely if it is the wish of the majority of people in Northern Ireland to remain in the UK and they want that respected, then why is it that the Majority of Derry City (Doire, L'Derry) who are of Irish culture and beliefs, cannot have their city called Derry officialy?? Surely if Unionists wish people to respect their majority beliefs then they muct also do likewise for the majority peoples of Derry! -- úsádaoir éireannach 01:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Having now read more of Djegan's edits, I am inclined to agree with your point Mr. Bell. Djegan does appear to be quite neutral. As such I have deleted my own comments above. However, I made those comments originally, based on the fact that Djegan deleted some comments that I had made. My comments had in turn been made in response to somebody else's comments. Those comments were made by a person who was ridiculing the name Londonderry, and they were doing so from an Irish Republican perspective. Nobody deleted those comments. Djegan chose to delete my reply, but never considered deleting the original comments that had provoked my reply. As such I concluded that Djegan was an Irish republican sympathizer. I now retract that conclusion having read a wider range of Djegan's edits.
Actually, having worked and known people in Belfast and Derry for several years the standard term used seems to be Derry, unless we're in extremely volatile regions. So my vote goes for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.159.138 ( talk) 16:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The "standard term" doesn't matter. What should matter is the actual name, which is Londonderry. Mooretwin ( talk) 20:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The majority of people min the city want to call it Derry, and the majority of people in the county want to call it County Derry. Therefore thats what they should be called.
>> That's all well and good, but an Encyclopedia has nothing to do what they think. It has everything to do with what the current state of affairs is. The city is called Londonderry, so this is what it the article should be called.
The audacity of some people to claim that an Irish city and county shuld have an English prefix is startling.
>> Not half as startling as the mental incapacity of some people to fail to realise that, like it or loathe it, the city is part of the U.K. Whether it 'should' have an English prefix is irrelevant. It does.
theres a river through the city, on the east side of the river people want to call it london derry, on the west side people want to call it derry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.197.61 ( talk) 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that the images require cleanup? I don't think that a photo of centra is really necessary to the article, and the craigavon bridge photo is way too close to the bottom of the page.
Just to note that the Infobox pin coords produce different results for the red dot mrking the city in the district using different skins. I cannot see what to adjust in Template:Infobox Irish Place -- Henrygb 10:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The BBC on 7th April 2006 says that the name issue is now going to a court of English Common Law and will be settled there: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4887352.stm
Sorry I dont have an account so im not logging in! Firstly thought it would be great if Wikipedia refered to the city as stroke city and made a link from both derry and Londonderry to that page. The city is still officially called Londonderry but to continue calling it that when it is resented by many people to me seams like a daft idea. I wish both communities could come together and give the city a new name and it would save a lot of bother. Lets refer to the city from now on as stroke city on wikipedia and do away with the Nationalist/Unionist bias.
if the council is officially the 'mayor, burgess and aldermen of the city of londonderry' that implies the city and the district are considered one and the same entity, so wouldn't changing the name of the district be enough? 82.35.13.34 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
"And wheras the City of Londonderry is presently administered by Derry City Council (the name of the council having been changed by virtue of an Order made pursuant to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 on the eleventh day of April 1984 and effective from the Seventh day of May following) And wheras the Mayor, Aldermen and citizens of the City of Londonderry are desirous that the said Arms including the Harp may be borne with lawful authority by the said City And wheras Cathal Logue Town Clerk and Chief Executive Officer of Derry City Council hath on their behalf requested that we reconsider the premises and evidence for the use of the Arms..." (and so on). The letters patent certified the arms (with the harp) to the City of Londonderry. They are dated the Thirtieth day of April in the year of our Lord Two Thousand and Three. This is interesting, as every certificate I have seen from the College of Arms was dated using the monarch's regnal year. The Queen doesn't get a mention in the document, although the Kings of Arms making the grant are members of the Royal Household.
It also means we have to replace the arms image. Lozleader 16:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says in official use the city is always known as Londonderry, but as a citation it provides a BBC article. Should this be removed/or at least the citation changed?
Londonderry is the official name, so I think the title of this article should be Londonderry—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.219.8.6 ( talk • contribs)
From WP:IMOS The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate. Which leads me to say that Owen Roe GAC other gaa clubs and its catergory should be all named derry as the GAA is mainly a nationalist past time and as stated here nationalist prefer the usage Derry . Would anyone agree ? ( Gnevin 12:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC))
Does anyone else think we should make mention of the two main diferent area in Derry, ie the city side and Waterside? In fact we should probably have separate articles for both as well, but I think they defiently deserve a mention in this article as well.
What does everyone else think? ( Derry Boi 10:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC))
The whole name dispute is all very interesting and all that, but I think we should drive to actually improve this article. I've been bold and taken the liberty of rating the article a class B (see top of page). I think now, while consensus can never be reached I'm sure, that it's time to carry on with the task of trying to make this a GA-class article. Any further suggestions? Mouse Nightshirt 00:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually looking at the article it has an impossible number of sections, 20m major and 5 minor. Can we trim them down, is their anyone that particularily is interested in doing this? Djegan 22:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The courts have said the offical name of the city is Londonderry. As this is the offical name, as well as the alternative name of Derry being said not to be the name, the article should be renamed back to its proper name of Londonderry. A reference could be made that the councils name is derry and state clearly that the offical name is Londonderry.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6297907.stm —-- 81.145.241.252 18:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
We all know what the official name is. We also know what most people in the city call it. I think the current compromise is the best. It isn't ideal, but Wikipedia works by consensus and to insist on Londonderry for both city and county would result in an edit war. That wouldn't help anyone. For the record, I think the court made the right decision given that no-one really cared about the name until the council name was changed in 1984 - changing the official name now would cause further division.
I don, however, wonder whether "In official use the city is always known as Londonderry" with the link to a BBC News website. Does that account for official use. The BBC often use Derry - their rule is that the first mention of the city in a news report is LD, the rest is just D.
NotMuchToSay 20:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The article really should be at Londonderry yes. That would be the most 'neutral' with respect to what its called.-- Josquius 12:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I've provided nothing new? What on Earth are you talking about, this is the first time I've posted in here....-- Josquius 12:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Note as well that the official name of Dingle, County Kerry is An Daingean but look what the article name is on Wikipedia. It doesn't have to be the official name that is used. For English speaking countries it usually is - but not always. NotMuchToSay 19:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This so-called "compromise" is an absolute joke. No such "compromise" exists in reality - both the city and county are nationally and internationally recognised as "Londonderry" (internationally excluding RoI with it's natural bias). Wikipedia cannot just start making things up just because Irish nationalists have the pettyness to avoid saying the word "London". "Derry" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Londonderry, just as "Carrick" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Carrickfergus and "Ards" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Newtownards. The usage of "Derry" throughout wikipedia articles certainly should not be discouraged, but to use a shortened form of the city's title (as has just been confirmed in a court of law in the juristiction) for the article's title is just completely unencyclopaedic.
A more sensible and factual compromise reflecting reality would be do to as the major media outlets do - to have both county and city at Londonderry, but to allow either term to be used throughout the encyclopaedia, with editors reverting any petty edits that are simply changing one form to the other. Palo999 15:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The compromise is backwards to me. The city is Londonderry. It was founded as Londonderry and has always been Londonderry. Derry was a utterly different town which over the industrial revolution gradually became a part of Londonderry like many other towns around the world. The county however I see as Derry as that is what it has always been, Londonderry was founded in Co.Derry.-- 82.39.147.71 17:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I dont really see much about natinalists tryin to revert the County Londonderry home page back to CO Coleraine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.241.57 ( talk) 09:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC).
Why is Londonderry's official name not provided in Gaelic? Admittedly due to the political situation, it's unlikely you'd regularly hear anyone talking about Londaindoire or Doire Londain but surely it should be consistantly expressed in Irish as it is in English and Ulster-Scots? I would propose that it is included -- Breadandcheese 22:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The legal name should be used. The section of the article concerning the name is adequete to explain that many people disagree with the name. As someone who wouldn't care if it was renamed Derry (should the pupulation vote that way) i find it ridiculous this so called encylopaedia has taken to a political compromise. If an anti death penalty group asked you to change some articles on capital punishment to 'state murder', would you do that just to appease them? 9again speaking as someone agaisnt the death penalty anyway). Wikipedia should use the legal name for the city and the county as it stands now according to law, and decided upon by the High Court. To call it Derry when the legal term is otherwise, is just politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.30.132 ( talk) 18:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Isnt an encyclopedia to give correct accurate information, if wikipeidia, decides, just to change the name of the article to make some people happy, even when they are incorrect, then the encyclopedia loses all crediblity. If the city and counties names where ever changed offically then i would accept the change, but until such a time, the name should remain Londonderry for both county and city.
No,we don't need a compromise that everyone can live with, we need to see the facts presented as they are. You start mucking around like this in an attempt to satisfy local opinion - which has nothing to do with your brief, by the way - and who knows where it will stop?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 12:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
If the name of the city is going to be called Derry there is a mistake 4 lines down where it refares to its as the old walled city of londonDerry.
The name of the city is and always has been LONDONDERRY. Londonderry is the official and proper name. Shouldn't that be the name of the article? There is no such place as "Derry". That was a former city that no longer exists, Londondery being built in its place but because of political correctness and petty anti-British sentlement we have to put up with a bogus and offensive name for the place? Let's not forget Ulster is BRITISH. Why should we have to compromise? Londonderry is its name by Royal Charter, a position that has not been revoked and hopefully never will be. YourPTR! 11:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Both names are actualy wrong it should be called Doire and we should be arguing over whether to call it Doire or Derry adding a London at the end is just too long a name . Dubhead
Right... Like Baile Átha Cliath is the "real" name of Dublin?? Okaaaay!! Strangely Dublin still prevails... ;-) The comparison could be made with Istanbul/Constantinople. The Greeks' road signs all point to Constantinople (which is the name I personally would prefer) but no-one does not accept that the city's official name is Istanbul. In my own view, this article should be called Londonderry, even although I use "Derry" myself interchangeably with it, until such time as the official name is changed. You have to recognise the reality of the official state of play, until such time as circumstances may change. What if the articles on St. Petersburg or Volvograd were called Leningrad and Stalingrad respectively, and this was presented as their current names? Or if I renamed the Dún Laoghaire article Dunleary or Kingstown? 132.185.240.122 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
LONDONDERRY is the official name, and is what it should be called. The name Londonderry was passed in court as the official name when it was tried to be changed to "derry". As wikipedia is designed to be neutral, Londonderry should be the proper name for this topic, and not "derry", as this is favouring the people who call it the unofficial "derry"
This 'agreement' is a disgrace. The city is called LONDONDERRY under British law which both the UK and ROI governments recognise as the legal jurisdiction - in line with EU law which supercedes both. The county is also called LONDONDERRY. Only the Council area is named DERRY. Wikipedia should not allow itself to be used as a political pawn and should uphold information in line with the legal agreements in place. Poodler - 13/09/2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.229.156.40 ( talk) 15:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is ridiculous, wikipedia is supposed to give accurate, IMPARTIAL and purely factual information, this article needs to be renamed to LONDONDERRY. 82.41.100.220 ( talk) 21:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Stop being racist its Derry not Londonderry. Also talk about the double decker bridge. I think thats kind of unique and would be notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.237.144 ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
In what strange dimension is calling the city Londonderry rather than Derry "racist"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.224.235 ( talk) 20:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
This should be changed, Londonderry is part of the U.K and the U.K call it Londonderry, just like India change their city names to Mumbai etc, Wikipedia should follow the official line of that country, not the few and to reach a so called consensus with the few on Wikipedia. This is truly where Wikipedia is pathetic
. --
Rockybiggs (
talk)
14:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
The article title should read LONDONDERRY. It is the LEGAL name. To call it anything other is unprofessional and is certainly POV. This goes by the consensus of Wikipedias NPOV rules. Not the panderings of individuals who take it upon themselves to make "compromises." As such it should be changed to it's proper name and not a name given because so called editors can't follow the rules they claim to follow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.162.120 ( talk) 00:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of which side you take in this discussion make sure that you don't break existing links to pages. If you change the text in a link make sure that the new text has the correct page name applied as well, or add a redirect. srushe ( talk) 17:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I personally refer to the city as Derry, because it's shorter, and I don't have strong political views. But the city is officially called Londonderry, and if this is an encyclopedia, we should name the article accordingly. If we ever merge with the Republic, they will almost certainly change the name back to Derry, but until then, why is this even under discussion? It's like renaming the Mumbai article to Bombay.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.231.118 ( talk) 12:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's absolutely right. This is ridiculous. I don't know how this whole Wikipedia thing works, but it's supposed to be an encyclopedia and deal exclusively in the facts. There is, in effect, no city called Derry so why, why, why is this article called Derry??? It's absolutely ridiculous. The previous contributor refers to the Mumbai example and there are probably lots of others - are you going to start adjusting all your entries headings in this utterly contrary fashion..? Incidentally,t's a reflection of the effectiveness of the republican propaganda machine over the years that you even feel the need to consider this. It usually doesn't occur to the do-gooders who want everyone to be happy that in attempting to placate minority opinion, you're actually offending the majority - but we've been living with it for years now, so we're probably practically immune. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 10:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Now we're losing the plot completely..! - Gracey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 13:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Why would "the majority of Northern Ireland", who after all don't live in Derry, have any say in the name of the city? Change Belfast to Londonbelfast if you wish, as a citizen of Derry I have no right to oppose that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.165.124 ( talk) 15:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
** I haven't read though the entirety of this because I'm from the city and I'm sick and tired of the whole thing, but I noticed that you state that as 'an agreed compromise' you'll adopt this silly Derry City/County Londonderry thing. Can I just ask, why does Wikipedia feel the need to adopt this 'compromise' in relation to the name of this city? Surely the point of this site is to provide the facts as they stand? The name of this city is not, as you have in your heading, Derry. Do you regularly depart from printing the facts and instead adopt a 'compromise' in order to satisfy some local opinion? Where else have you done this?
I just ask this because I'd like to know if Wikipedia is presenting me with the facts or with a version of the facts which is, in fact, not factual. Could you tell me what your policy is on this, because frankly, I think it's quite ridiculous that you've done this. It's the thin edge of the wedge and users really have no idea from here on whether what they are reading on Wiki is actually right.
You should amend this to reflect the name of the city as it stands now - and as a court has just ruled that it will stay - and note in passing in the text that there is some controversy over the name. That would have been the sensible and factual way to do this. - Gracey' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 12:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Image:Ulsterbus Foyle.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 16:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Can some please confirm for User:Biofoundationsoflanguage that the derry/londonderry compromise does not apply to the name of Derry GAA or organisations in general . That the compromise only applies to the legal geographic regions in the north known as county Londonderry and Derry the city ( Gnevin 08:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC))
Not to go into a long rant, or coming from any kind of polictical standpoint, but this is an encyclopedia. It is supposed to represent the facts. Th city's name is Londonderry, factually and legally, regardless of popular sentiment. It is named so on maps, signage and legal documents. It makes a mockery of the notion that Wikipedia is encyclopedic by pandering to politicised editors. The title should be Londonderry, and the naming dispute should be a portion of the article. Anybody who disagrees is not fit to edit this page or call themselves an editor. 84.70.196.197 23:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Northern Ireland has been in existance since 1921 and Londonderry's district council has only been officially called Derry City Council since 1984. However its official Royal Charter status can only be changed by the monarch so the city is still officially called Londonderry. As Londonderry resides in the UK and its official name is Londonderry, the article should be called Londonderry. Derry City Council can retain its name on its page as thats the councils official name - not the city's. Neutrality wise how can you object to the official spelling of the city?
The only people who truely object are the large amount of Irish republicans/nationalists that are on Wikipedia. Why can't they put aside their political bias on the topic, its such clear bigotry on the matter. London was added as a prefix to derry in recognition of the London companies job in rebuilding the city after the Irish originally destroyed Derry. Yet nationalists in their anti-Britishness feel like its Britains way of imposing their authority over the city, but then why not call Armagh, Londonarmagh if thats the case etc. etc?
Secondly Londonderry was built on the west bank of the river Foyle as oppossed to the original east-bank location of Derry (which as said was destroyed by Irish), so you could say its an entirely new settlement near an older settlement that lied across the otherside of the river, so you could say this new settlement was called Londonderry from its birth and thus the name Derry is defunct.
In fact you can blame the Irish for the creation of Londonderry for if they never totally destroyed the originally settlement of Daire in the first place it would never have had to have been entirely rebuilt by the London companies. But then again maybe King James should have called the city Derrie as he originally planned. Mabuska 00:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a mountain of discussion on this already. Please go back and read the archives to find out how the present compromise (City of Derry, County of Londonderry) came about. It has all been discussed ad nauseam many times before. -- Red King 22:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I was a little hazy before. The point I was trying to make is that these aren't the people that make the name of the city, despite the fact that it is. Here's a snip from self-identifying names:
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
Y'know, maybe the name should be Derry considering that it is the right thing to do for the residents. However, we cannot declare what a name should be just because some monarchs named it quite unfairly. We can only declare what it is and the name is Londonderry. Wikipedia didn't choose the name, the residents of the city didn't choose the name, the monarch did. We cannot prescribe what is write or wrong. We can only report it. Reginmund 23:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
That is the exact point that I have been trying to make. Yes, the name ought to be Derry but it isn't Derry; it is Londonderry. Wikipedia should record what is and not what it ought to be. Reginmund 02:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Could I also point out to readers in this that some Unionist uses of fact can at times seem abit hypocritical on Wikipedia. If I take Traditional Unionist (user) for example, here you campaign for the article to be renamed Londonderry along with Counter-revolutionary (user)
I have raised this point earlier not to mock, but to try and perhaps show you that what is indeed fact may not be correct in the minds of people with opposing views.
Why can I see the infobox on Northern Ireland cities and towns turning into another flag issue? I've reverted back to the UK location infobox for a couple of reasons. One, regardless of the polictics Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the UK info box information is more relevant. Two the Ireland infobox shows NI and locations on it without any part of the surrounding "other country". It simply looks weird to see NI floating in space. What I don't want is a revert war (I'm looking at least at two likely candidates here *glare*). Part of me wonders if a specific NI template might be a compromise. -- Blowdart 20:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The meta tag for the title is "Official name". Well, the official name in UK law (which has jurisdiction) is Londonderry. Of course the official name chosen by the Council is Derry. So it seems to me that we should have both. If the purists insist that we can't have that compromise, then the only single option is Londonderry. There is a strange symetry in having the article called Derry and the infobox title as Londonderry. It (dis)satisfies both traditions equally! -- Red King 19:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I am saddened now again to see that as well as the frustrating "naming issues" that have arisen within the Derry/Londonderry/Doire articles, there is now some people from Unionist backgrounds looking to UK infoboxes for towns/cities as well as the counties. While i agree in principle with further additions to infoboxes for northern and indeed southern counties, i fail to see Blowdarts issue for changing town/city infoboxes within the north. There has been no issue upto this point with northern townland and city infoboxes. I have researched Wikipedia infoboxes for UK cities such as Cambridge, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh and the only infoboxes in these cities to show any consistancy are the Scottish ones, which differ significantly from their English counterparts. In conclusion, as there is no consistant UK-wide infobox for towns/cities I am happy to keep northern town/city infoboxes as they are. This being said, I am still expecting others here to now request a different "northern" infobox from that of the Irish town/city infoboxes for no reason other that they fear similarity with our island neighbours! Lets concentrate in updating the great history and culture content of our towns and cities rather than ruin them with petty political debating!-- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 08:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be fair to define a "place of interest" in the city to be one that has historical, cultural or educational merit. Of the places listed in this section, there are several I would consider removing. It would appear that a few have been added as a cheap advertisement:
I will conduct the above changes in the next few days, if there are no objections.
Marmite disaster 23:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Generally speaking, we don't predicate titling decisions on either original names or official names. The most relevant naming convention advises us to use the most common name for the place. It has been argued that Derry is more common, and it has also been argued that Londonderry is more common, but there is no consensus that either of these is the case. Thus, there is no consensus to move the page at this time. Dekimasu よ! 04:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Derry → Londonderry — Londonderry is the official name of the city [10] — Reginmund 00:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Lets search some Ireland based websites using the same methodology I have adopted above (because the views of Irish-based academia and media count to). I have tried to avoid very biased outlets, like ideology or political based stuff (but again these are raw and unfiltered results so caveat emptor as returned from a quick google).
In total thats 121,410 for "Derry" and 9,066 for "Londonderry" - or seven websites in which Derry is more common than Londonderry and two websites in which Londonderry is more common than Derry. Four websites based in Northern Ireland, and five websites based in the Republic of Ireland. Djegan 01:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Indeed as a final point about sources lets remember that whilst its easy to quote results returned from a trendy online search engine (abeit not always an exact science) their are many other things that can be used to measure how common a name is. The occurence in all the books in a national library, periodicals and printed newspapers of every type, addresses in a database, interviews of personalities, entertainment, organisations, manuals of style, old ladies on street corners in conversation. In summary we should not fall down by quoting results from just one source. The internet is not the sum of human knowledge, nor the pinnacle of human society. Djegan 01:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The matter of the status of Londonderry is rather academic for the purposes of a move proposal. In particular, the guidelines WP:UCN WP:NCON maybe useful for reference. In summary, the official name of something is not always the name used for the article title. Djegan 14:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
There are vast differences between the naming issues of Derry/Londonderry and that of Hull. I have seen instances where authors in wiki are either forgeting or just erasing the fact that the term Derry (Doire) is not just a short-form of the name Londonderry but was the original name for the settlement, this is why it is still so commonly used by people not just in Derry, but throughout the world. It cannot be simply dismissed as a short-form name as it was commonly used for the area long before Londonderry. I believe the guidelines as per the guidelines WP:UCN WP:NCON should be used in relation to this article. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 16:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Londaindoire is the Gaelic for Londonderry not Doire. Doire is only Gaelic for Derry. So i've included Londaindoire alongside Doire at the start as its only right the Irish for Londonderry the city's official name is stated just as it is in the Gaelic Wikipedia Doire page which if it is good enough for it there its good enough for it here. There should be no objections to this as its not politically divisive but informative. Mabuska 00:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Due to the riduclous poltical corectness of Londonderry/Derry/L'Derry/That place up north west/The walled city/Foyle or whatever you wish to call it i feel the need to add L'Derry as it has now become the "standard" pc thing to say as it suposedly helps both side but ultimitly dosent at all. I am checking here before i do it. Thanks YellowSnowRecords 08:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
If it seems to be a bad idea, that is because it is most likely a bad idea. Just throwing that out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.80.114 ( talk) 16:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This was always traditionally the case and Londonderry is indeed often called the second city but since the year 2000 it is now the third largest city in Northern Ireland after Lisburn, whose city population in the 2001 census was larger, was granted city status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.113.48.9 ( talk) 12:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your input YellowSnowRecords2 08:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you'll find the population of Lisburn and Lisburn City Council are very different. The main settlement of Lisburn has a population of 71,465, whereas the Council District which covers a much larger area than the urban area has a population of over 108,000. So by terms of population by either urban area or core area Derry is still larger than Lisburn. 15:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Surely Craigavon is the second largest city, or was meant to be at least? 86.42.98.32 ( talk) 03:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Craigavon was planned as a Second City a long time ago. The settlement failed to develop and meet it's population quota and even now it's population of around 56,000 is nowhere near what NIRSA recognises as the population of a city (75,000 or more). 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
There has been a silly edit war over the entry in the infobox. I see no decent reason to have Londonderry first given that:
Please discuss this rather than have the silly edit war. I would like to hear of any explanations about why people think the above reasoning is wrong. violet/riga (t) 13:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The article is misleading enough as it is, given that it is named erroronously, but to open it with "Derry or Londonderry" is wrong. It is Londonderry, sometimes refered to the shortened version of Derry. Traditional unionist ( talk) 21:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
(sigh*) - To avoid repetition on queries regarding any issues, opinions, facts, or grievances with the articles names Derry, or its sister articles name County Londonderry as accepted by Wikipedia, please refer to the discussion above that took place a couple of months ago. All POV, facts etc. are clearly presented there! If we have any opinions on enhancing the informative content on the city, its culture, history or future, by all means please keep posting! -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 18:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The infobox is a disaster. It should only have the name per the article title. Two variations on each line points to confusion. Djegan ( talk) 23:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph states: "It is one of the only places in Europe not to have its defensive walls breached". I'm not clear whether "one of the only places" is supposed to mean "one of the few towns" or "the only town". There are quite a few others: e.g. Berwick-upon-Tweed; Brasov; Avila; Lucca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariwara ( talk • contribs) 23:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
why does this article have no mention of the troubles? are you trying to pretend it didn't happen? under famous events you have some whale but no mention of Bloody sunday? isn't that odd? are you just trying to delete it from history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.99.137 ( talk) 15:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The official name is Londonderry, and the official name for the County is Co.Londonderry.
Therefore Wikipedia is not correct by calling it "Derry".
No need for a compromise, "Londonderry" for both city and county --90.241.138.28
cover all I was trying to say. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 10:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
As I've said before the compromise is backwards. Co.Derry was there long before Londonderry was built so the county should be at Derry. Londonderry however was built with this name- it was a totally seperate town to old Derry, its just over the years they both sort of grew into each other (as was common everywhere). It was Londonderry though that was recognised as the dominant city in this and IIRC from which most of the growth happened. -- Him and a dog 16:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
It really is ludicrous that nationalist POV editors have decided to entitle this article using an unofficial name. The High Court has now ruled that the name of the city is "Londonderry", FFS. Any encyclopaedia worth its salt would entitle the entry "Londonderry" and then go on to explain the dispute within the article. It seems that there is a conspiracy of nationalist editors on Wikipedia determined to get their way, regardless of the facts. Mooretwin ( talk) 08:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
This is ludicrous, millions of people call it LA. I would bet more people say LA then Los Angeles,but we don't call it LA. A city should be called what the LEGAL name of the city is in the language of that city. Would you call it Lenningrad because the few communists left in Russia want to return to the old days? This is a classic example of Wikipedia using misinformation. You can call an apple an orange all you like, but it's STILL an APPLE 63.26.97.20 ( talk) 03:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)eric
What is sad here is that some people cannot accept compromise for the greater good. Hiding behind fact when it suits their POV. I am heartened to see somewhat that this debate has moved on into more interesting topics such as the City Walls etc. however it seems a small number of people still cant seem to break away from old political POV's. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 10:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else agree that the article's structure is a bit unorthodox and illogical? To have shopping and night-life as first-level headings seems a little odd to me. I'm willing to have a go at improving it, but I wanted to gather some thoughts/suggestions from other editors first. Cordless Larry ( talk) 13:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice restructuring yesterday, Cordless. From all the red in the diffs, I first thought you had deleted a lot more than you had. Have you considered putting it forward for a Good Article review yet? I am no expert on the criteria, but at least the naming edit war seems to be at a low enough level now (and so quicky reverted by regulars) that I hope it would not hinder GA. The prose isn't perfect, but then that is one thing that always gets worked on hard when an article is a Featured Article Candidate. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 05:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Four line quotations from speeches are common on Wikipedia, but not of songs, especially without commentary. However I thing they are great and would also add There is a green hill far away. How do you think we should justify them to a good article reviewer? -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk)
I bet he wears a bow tie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NotThatWay ( talk • contribs) 04:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
In an attempt to move this article closer to good article status, it could do with some more references. I've tagged a few sections that are lacking them, and any help would be appreciated. Cordless Larry ( talk) 21:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Barryob added a reference to substantiate the removal of "perceived" from the sentence about discrimination. The below is my response: Using Whyte as a source for Government discrimination isn't quite wrong, but is a gross simplification. "The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland. " Whyte is not an adequate source for what you claim it to be. Traditional unionist ( talk) 20:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- "The unionist government must bear its share of responsibility. It put through the original gerrymander which underpinned so many of the subsequent malpractices, and then, despite repeated protests, did nothing to stop those malpractices continuing The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland".
I've twice removed the Irish Londaindhoire from the introduction but I've now realised that it's in the infobox too. Given that there are only 9 Google search results for this version of the name (most of them being a result of this article), is it wise to include it? Cordless Larry ( talk) 23:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be removed--it appears to be the same person inserting this. Hohenloh ( talk) 05:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I must admit I'm deeply sadden by your arrogance towards any rendering of the name Londonderry fully into the Irish langauge. I believe it would have help promote the Irish Langauge to the unionist community, showing them that this langauage also respect there right to use the name of 'Londonderry' instead of 'Derry' if they so wish. Yes, I will admit there are many how are unsure if the spelling 'Londaindoire' is correct, due to the complicated rules of written Irish compared with written English. But there is no need to discrimated against people on this issue. I had hope that this would have had a more positive outcome but it seem that either the operators of this site or the people that visit it are determind to allow blind sectarianism run riot: Northern Ireland has moved on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.42.35 ( talk) 01:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
You can keep your joke of a language ulster scots. In Ireland it is called Derry and in the ancient Gaelic language it is called Doire. Why should this be anglasised for the unioinist community. Also there is no need to troll every GAA team and catholic town changing the county to londonderry. They are both acceptible names for the county. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.229.0 ( talk) 21:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Absolute rubbish, if it wasn't for the English and the Scots settlers the ancient Irish would still be living in mud huts in the Bogside! There wouldn't be a gracious city called Londonderry, just some shanty town like Buncrana or Letterkenny to take some local Irish Republican examples! --
78.33.101.58 (
talk)
16:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
No I'm afraid what you're saying is absolute rubbish. What happens when you drive over the border from the Republic to the North? The answer is you go from a nice, wide road to a narrow road with lots of dangerous bends. A classic example is on the N2/A5 road between Dublin and Derry. NI is a neglected part of the UK. The quality of housing is also better in the Republic, with more people actually owning their homes. And Letterkenny isn't a "shanty town", as you claim. Footyfanatic3000 ( talk) 20:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
You can argue as much as you like but the official name is LONDONDERRY and that is good enough for me. The Nationalists and Republicans in Londonderry City Council tried to change it by reference to the Northern Ireland High Court in 2006. Fortunately, the Court saw sense and ruled against the council and their, what is really a petty name change.
The city is Londonderry and has been since the early 17th century and long may it be so whatever anyone else sees fit to call it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Maiden City ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I am rather suprised how edgey some people are when it comes to the name of this city, and quite frankly I find it rather unnessecary to argue over the name of Northern Ireland's second city. This rubbish posted about if Londonderry is fully written in irish as 'Londandoire' would be a 'British Victory' is complete and utter nonsense. Those that wish to demise one of the four langauges of Northern Ireland (alongside English, Ulster Scots, and N.I. Sign Langauge) rather than to promote it is the bigger fool. This is republican proganda and I cant believe after forty years of genocide across Northern Ireland they wish to pledle such sectarian rubbish. While the so called leaders of Republicanism and Nationalism are trying to build a stable way of life here for are country, the grass roots see their sole prupose to bring Northern Ireland back to the days of greef and misery. I am a Northern Irish citizen of the United Kingdom and I have enshrined in the law of two nation states and a regional assembly the right to include both the british and irish asspect into my cultural idenity as a citizen of Northern Ireland/Tuaisceart Éireann/Norlin Airlann. It is time for once in this country dark history to look forward and seek a better day our six counties of this wonderful province I call "Ulster, My Home!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.235.23 ( talk) 01:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, to pre-quash the Republican Retaliation for this, I would like to point out that i believe as Londonderry has a majority Republican population, it should be part of the Republic of Ireland. But regardless of this, the name of the city is Londonderry, and until this is subsiquently officially changed; wikipedia should go by the official name. If wikipedia is going to start using crazed, none official names, then why not rename the Falkland Islands article 'Islas Malvinas' and Istanbul 'Constantinople'. This is a joke. Why is Wikipedia taking the side of the Republicans in all this and at the same time, doing so against the offical name! Nonsense. Absolute Nonsense. ( Umbongo91 ( talk) 20:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC))
Actually, it is a majority Nationalist population, NOT Republican! ...and BTW not so many of them would want to come under the auspices of the Irish Republican Government...a bit like having their cake and eating it !! -- 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 14:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone work out why the attributions for the bottom two sets of song lyrics in the references in popular music section aren't displaying? Cordless Larry ( talk) 11:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Why not just have the article called "Derry / Londonderry" and have redirects to it from "Derry" and "Londonderry". MrMarmite ( talk) 15:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Traditional Unionist, do you do anything constructive on Wiki or just drop random inflamatory posts? Try going into the free state and looking for a sign for Derry, then assess wether there is anywhere in Ireland called Derry! -- 193.61.159.26 ( talk) 20:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This couldn't be done due to the way the wiki software works. Derry/Londonderry would have Londonderry as a subsection of Derry. A similar compromise was tried with the Sega megadrive (called the Genesis in the US) and this issue arose.-- Him and a dog 17:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This explanation included in the possible origins of the coat of arms seems rather suspect:
A new claim has recently discovered a new possible explanation for the shield of arms. There is a popular legend that a man in the 13th century of the Slocum clan led a charge against foreign invaders. In this charge, 300 brave Irish Catholics from Derry died trying to uphold their firm belief in the universitality of their ideals. The legend declares that the final death cry of these brave young men was, "Forever shall we live in truth! That is our Victory!"
In particular the bit that mentions "300 brave Irish Catholics" sounds silly when all of Western Europe was catholic at this time, who exactly were they fighting against. Sounds like something to wind certain people up I'd say.
Since no one seems to be bothered I'll just remove it.
This is ludacris. The High Court has ruled the City to be called 'Londonderry', the city charter clearly states 'Londonderry', the name of the city is 'Londonderry'.
On accuweather, they call the city 'Derry, Ireland', and I am beginning to think that American institutions are biased towards the Republican Community! Regardless of Religion, Politics, What ever, the city only has one official name; 'Londonderry'
The article being called Derry is a joke, 'Derry' is a none-official name not legally recognised by anyone but the dissident Sinn Féin group and the IRA.
Wikipedia stands to simply represent the facts, what is right, and seeing how the Istanbul argument is NOT called Constantinople, and Beijing is NOT called Peking, and Mumbai is NOT called Bombay, Londonderry should NOT be called Derry.
All those who support this please state below with a comment. This MUST be changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umbongo91 ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
"'Derry' is a none-official name not legally recognised by anyone but the dissident Sinn Féin group and the IRA." Apart from the Republic of Ireland government... --
193.61.159.26 (
talk)
02:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
The article currently states that Derry is the "last remaining city in the British Isles to be surrounded by defensive walls". This is supported by the second citation [26] (an article in the Sydney Morning Herald), while the other citation at the same place in the article [27] (from the University of Ulster) says "It is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland". Should the article say Ireland or the British Isles? York and Chester have walls, but I'm not sure of the "completeness".
I ask as I noticed the issue when dealing with vandalism from 78.148.165.124. His other changes are wrong and not supported by the citations, but this one at least deserves discussion. srushe ( talk) 19:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
York and Chester are complete! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
You can't block me - like all talk talk users my IP address is dynamic! Anyway who do you think you are to censor my contributions! Look up Chester in wikipedia and see that its walls are complete therefore invalidating the use of the term "British Isles" in the offending paragraph which has therefore only be used for purposes of political propaganda in the context of the Northern Irish dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The article about Chester's walls does. They are broken only to allow an access road, same as Derry's walls. You're not from Derry are you? Nor Chester by the sounds of things. Oh well at least we're not fighting over the city name ........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Derry's are complete the same way Chester's are. Strictly speaking neither city has complete walls as both have access roads breaching the walls to allow access for Heavy Goods vehicles, in Derry's case at Linenhall Street. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I dont see much wrong with the way 7.150.164... has edited a page. Wikipedia is all about editing, and sometimes people disagree. He has in fact now been proven to have been right when OFenian has had nothing to back his argument other than "British Isles are here to stay, whether you like it or not" showing his colours so to speak. Certainly casts a dark cloud over his motives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.181.167 ( talk) 17:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Chester's City walls are complete. View the map on page 13 (7 of 12): http://www.chester.gov.uk/PDF/20081013Chester_Attractions_Booklet.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.146.216 ( talk) 18:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Could someone in Derry right now go take a photo of the road through the walls sometime soon? That should solve this. This is a really strange and silly argument going on.-- Him and a dog 18:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Can someone list the references here that are being disputed? The article lists one - are there more? - Travel article in Sydney Morning Herald which in fairness is not the best source for the claim being made. But I'm sure there were better ones? -- HighKing ( talk) 19:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Chester Reference:
http://www.chester.gov.uk/PDF/20081013Chester_Attractions_Booklet.pdf
Chester City Council website: "The short section of Castle Drive in front of this building is the only true break in the circuit of walls - which were demolished in 1901 as part of the layout of Castle Drive." [29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 ( talk) 20:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Well we can go back to the fact the Derry's walls are not complete either ..... However what part of the previous statement that part of Chester's walls were demolished in 1901 didn't you understand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 ( talk) 21:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Whar reliable source is there saying that Derry's walls are complete? We have a CLAIM to say they are possibly the MOST complete ("most complete" and "complete" are very different) however anyone who has ever visited the city would know they didn't need a grappling hook to traverse Linenhall Street when passing between our two shopping centres! The walls are not complete, just like Chester's are not complete. (For example: My father has the MOST COMPLETE head of hair of all his brothers - my father does not have a COMPLETE head of hair!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.181.167 ( talk) 11:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Chester's walls are not complete. "The short section of Castle Drive in front of this building is the only true break in the circuit of walls - which were demolished in 1901 as part of the layout of Castle Drive." Source: Chester City Council website [30]
However Conwy Town Walls are "completely intact" and are also a Unesco World Heritage Site. http://www.visitconwytown.co.uk/
Just because Chester specifically admits a break and Derry does not doesn't make it so. Anyone who has been to Londonderry can tell you quite clearly that part of the wall has been knocked down. I'd really suggest as a conclusion some definate proof be found- someone should go and take a picture of the gap in the walls. Less good, if no one is in Derry, is emailing the council about it. I'm sure they wouldn't lie.-- Him and a dog 11:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Here is a map of the city- http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/towns/derry.gif . Look in the bottom right of the map. It clearly says 'modern breach'. Thats where the main access road goes. As you yourselves say nearly complete is not the same as complete. If someone could dig up a map from a more reputable site than ireland story that should be enough to prove it too.-- Him and a dog 11:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Chester's walls are not complete as stated by the Chester City Council website: A section was demolished in 1901. However Conwy's walls are completely intact. [31] The debate has moved on: it is no longer Derry versus Chester because Derry would seem to be more complete though neither is totally complete. But Derry would seem to be less complete than Conwy. Therefore "Conwy is the most complete set of walls in the British Isles". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.183.51 ( talk) 14:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Northern Ireland Government website states "The city is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland" [32]. I think given the fact that Conwy is undeniably complete that this is as far as the claims for Derry can go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.183.51 ( talk) 14:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Heres some more proof:
clicky clicky. I couldn't put the marker right on the breech but its just north of there. Market street runs across the inside of the wall then newmarket street clearly goes through a hole in it. I've wrote to the council too but no word from them yet.--
Him
and a
dog
17:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia would have you believe there is no censorship but there clearly is by trying to ban people's IP addresses and disabling editing of articles:
VirtualSteve censored this article on 23rd March 2009. Deacon of Pndapetzim has attempted to censor this article on 30th March 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.28.35 ( talk) 17:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Deacon of Pndapetzim: You haven't protected Derry, you've censored it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.117.89 ( talk) 17:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I've fully protected this page due to the edit warring. Please discuss fully on the talk pages. Canterbury Tail talk 19:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Fact 1: Conwy's Walls are "completely intact" and are also a Unesco World Heritage Site. [33]
Fact 2: If fact 1 is correct then the statement that "Derry's walls are the most complete in the British Isles" cannot be correct and so must be removed or changed to "most complete in Ireland" or reworded or something. But it cannot remain unchanged purporting to be fact.
Blimey. You're really opposed to all change in the article aren't you?
As I've said- yes, Conwy isn't a city, its a town. But to pretend it doesn't exist just because of that is very
weasel worded. Its really not much of a stretch to include Conwy as a minor note and make clear that as a town it 'doesn't count' in the best city walls stakes.
As far as the main topic is concerned I've yet to see any reliable sources definatly state in context that the walls are 100% complete and no hole exists- which anyone with any experience with Derry knows it does. Not that it should matter. This really is the most trivial revert war ever you've got going here.--
Him
and a
dog
08:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
So I wrote to Derry council for verification of what I saw when I was in Derry. I'd be hapy to forward this email to anyone and you're welcome to check up on it yourself.
Dear >my real name<
You are correct. There is a break in the wals to allow road access coming from Orchard Street to Newmarket street and the walls then resume along the side of the Millennium Forum. Regards
Margaret Edwards
Derry City Council Heritage & Museum Service
Original Message-----
From: Paul Irwin Sent: 01 April 2009 09:34 To: Margaret Edwards Subject: FW: Feedback Form
Hi Margaret,
the following email has been received through the Councils website and has been forwarded for your attention/information.
regards,
Paul
Original Message-----
From: Feedback [34] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:51 PM To: Paul Irwin Subject: Feedback Form
The following is a Comment from the Derry City Council website.
Full Name :: >>nom<< Email Address:: >mine removed< Department:: City Marketing Comment:: Hello, I'm wondering if you can solve a minor dispute for me with regards to Derry city walls. I'm certain that on Newmarket Street there exists a (modern) gap in the walls to allow for heavy goods access. Someone else however is certain that the walls to this day remain 100% complete. Which of us is correct?
-- Him and a dog 14:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)I asked for additional references some time ago, and none have been forthcoming. I agree that the article should be changed to quote the reliable source - that is the University of Ulster website which states that the walls are the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland and one of the finest examples of a walled city in Europe today. The second reference from the Sydney Morning Herald is not a reliable source since the Travel article is refering to a 2nd hand conversation, without quoting. That is what the references that we have produced to date state, and that is all that can be supported in the article. -- HighKing ( talk) 21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
The vote is whether the sentence that "Derry is the last remaining city in the British Isles to be completely surrounded by defensive walls" conflicts with the fact that Conwy in Wales has a completely intact set of walls that are also a UNSECO World Heritage site. Should the sentence therefore be changed to read "Derry is the last remaining city in the Ireland to be completely surrounded by defensive walls" so as not to conflict with Conwy's claim?
I vote to change the sentence - 1 for change / 0 for status quo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.68.105 ( talk) 13:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd have to vote against because Derry is not completely surrounded by walls.
Additionally though the differences are often trivial a town is not a city.
HOWEVER it is weasel worded to say Derry has the most complete city walls and not mention that though this is the case as far as cities are concerned if we're talking about settlements in general then you should look to the town of Conwy--
Him
and a
dog
14:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Let's keep all private emails (unreliable sources), opinions about walls and gaps in walls (original research), Conwy (a town, therefore not relevant to a sentence about cities) and anything else like that out of this section. This is what reliable sources say;
Therefore according to multiple reliable sources Derry's walls are regarded as complete/intact, and the most complete/intact in the British Isles. O Fenian ( talk) 13:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
If or when this page becomes editable again, could this sentence please be sorted out, as it does not make sense: "Apart from this local government decision, official use within the UK the city is usually known as Londonderry." At a minimum, inserting "in" before "official use" might work. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered ( talk) 14:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
While it seems that everyone is now exhausted and bored debating whether Derry has the most complete walls in the British Isles or just Ireland due to Conwy's conflicting claim, we cannot just leave this article locked forever. Therefore a decision needs to be made........
Change the sentence! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.109.32 ( talk) 16:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
What I'd go with is Derry's are the most complete city walls in the British isles- though the
town of
Conwy has better.
Except better worded of course. I'm sleepy. --
Him
and a
dog
18:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The name Derry relates to the old town which existed prior to the Plantation of Ulster. This town or large village as it probably was at the time was located on the east bank of the River Foyle where the Waterside district now exists. The walled city on the west bank was a new development built by settlers and named Londonderry, it was never ever known as Derry. To call it such now is inaccurate and makes a mockery of the whole Wikipedia ethos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 15:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I would if there was any point in it. Seems that Wikipedia operates on the basis of their own law ie one law for them and another for everyone else! An independent arbiter would be the only proper way to go but hey, they couldn't even agree on that eh Ding Dong? -- 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 00:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest somebody brings this up here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ethnic_and_cultural_conflicts_noticeboard
The legal name used on signs and maps is not being used here purely due to sectarian politics. The fact the entire talk page virtually is an endless debate on this proves its validity for going higher.
I know there's arguments about 'consensus' and 'compromise', but anybody can easily mobilise yet more politicised editors in pointless straw polls, and cold hard facts don't require compromise, which is an insult to the concept of truth. Nationalist sentiments should always be subservient to reality, be they Republican or Unionist. Personally my politics swing neither way, but I am frankly shocked by how people can distort the facts so effectively because they personally don't like the way things are in actuality.
People here have proven they can't be relied upon to be objective or adult, so I suggest it should be moved to independent arbitration and left at that. If you truly believe in the validity of your arguments, there should be no problem, only for those who realise their positions are built on foundations of straw and like-minded biased editors will have an interest in blocking such a move by allowing people without a stake or agenda to decide the future name of the page. 90.219.158.254 ( talk) 22:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The issue doesn't need arbitrated, it has already been settled. (Read further up for how this settlement was arrived at, how the term Derry is more commonly used than Londonderry etc.) What you mean is you don't like the agreed compromise of Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. Whether this is legally correct isn't the issue here, Wikipedia is not a legal document. It is an encyclodpedia and the city is more commonly known as Derry, albeit maybe officially known as Londonderry, but this is mentioned in the article. And do you think if you manage to change the article name to Londonderry that that would resolve the issue and end the "endless debate"? Not a chance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.48.204 ( talk) 16:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Instead of artbitration, just apply for your new Irish passport using the term "Londonderry". The Irish government have stated that they will now issue passports with this inscription if you desire. Of course you have to have been born in Derry to do that but sure if you weren't born in Derry you wouldn't be interested in the name of this article anyway, now would you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.190.81 ( talk) 17:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
And so it should be as most of the people of Northern Ireland / Ulster think the same. Such a glorious city with such a glorious history of valour and defence by its former people against the treacherous insurgents. It is no wonder that the celebrations to mark such a wonderful achievement has been carried on down the centuries by so many sons and daughters of Ulster.
Even the Northern Ireland anthem which is played at the Commonwealth Games is properly referred to as "The Londonderry Air" with the lyrics to 'Danny Boy' amongst others being sung to it.
The CAA code for City of Derry airport is LDY being the abbreviation for Londonderry.
Go to Google Maps and type in 'Derry' and see what comes up! .....seems they have got it right! -- 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 17:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Yet again I've had to protect this page. It's protected for all for two weeks now. There is still no consensus on the talk page, and continuous editing and reverting going on on the article. Canterbury Tail talk 21:43, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I've just stumbled upon this whole naming dispute now and can't believe that the article is called Derry when it is accepted (and legally ruled) that the city is named Londonderry. If the term 'Derry' is in more common use surely this is because it is shortened slang, and most people would say the city's correct name is Londonderry. Stuff like this is why Wikipedia will continue to be berated for compromising and pandering to groups who want to change the truth. There is no need for a compromise when it is a simple fact that the city is named Londonderry! I am British but couldn't give two hoots on this issue, from what I see it has been blown out of all proportion by groups who want to use this as a political weapon. I just care because it is Wikipedia and Wikipedia should do what an encyclopaedia does and present the facts. CompactDistance ( talk) 21:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Thats not what the current locking is about FYI.
But, since we're there; the majority of the population in Bombay call their city Bombay. But where does wiki have the article...?--
Him
and a
dog
16:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Quote from the wiki article on British Isles: "The term "British Isles" is controversial in relation to Ireland, where there are objections to the use of the phrase and the government of Ireland discourages its use.[10][11][12] "Britain and Ireland" is a frequently used alternative name for the group". But the problem with this is that stating Derry's walls are the most complete in "Ireland and Britain" is incorrect because of Conwy which are the most complete in Britain but also because Derry is not in Britian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.52.125 ( talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Macedonia has a similar, if different, naming controversy due to Greece's refusal to recognise the country's choosen name. What to call the article has been resolved on Wikipedia using the following criteria:
Common names prioritised. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) prioritises "the most commonly used name" because "using a full formal name requires people to know that name, and to type more."
How Macedonia self-identifies. Macedonia self-identifies formally as the "Republic of Macedonia" in its constitution and its government affairs [35], and uses "Macedonia" as the common short form of this formal name. Approximately two-thirds of UN member states, including all but two of the English-speaking countries, use this name.
Usage by other reference works. Almost all of the reference works (encyclopedias, dictionaries, gazetteers etc) available via Credo Reference and Oxford Reference Online use the term "Macedonia" as the conventional short form of the country; most also use "Macedonia" by itself as the name of their articles on the country.
Using the above Derry wins out on "Common names prioritised" and "Self-identifying names prioritised" while Londonderry probably wins "Daily usage by English Media". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.169.88 ( talk) 18:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Given the long-awaited decision by the Government of the Irish Republic to finally acknowledge that the third largest city in Northern Ireland can be referred to by them as Londonderry, I propose the whole concencus wrt the name be revisited BBC News Irish News. The Irish Government by their action have now confirmed what most people in Northern Ireland and the UK for that matter, have always known and accepted, and that is that the proper name for the city is Londonderry. The people didn't need a High Court Judge BBC News or the Government of the Republic Irish Dept of Foreign Affairs to tell them what they already knew.
You are now entering LONDONDERRY! Irish Times.
I propose that the lead name be the proper and legal title of Londonderry and that the coloquial term 'Derry' and the Irish name 'Doire' be given as secondary information. -- The Maiden City ( talk) 08:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
There have been some claims that Lisburn is the second city of Northern Ireland. For the record, according to the 2001 Census:
City | Population |
---|---|
Belfast | 267,500 |
Derry | 83,652 |
Lisburn | 71,435 |
And for Ireland:
City | Population | Census Year |
---|---|---|
Dublin | 505,739 | 2006 |
Belfast | 267,500 | 2001 |
Cork | 119,143 | 2006 |
Derry | 83,652 | 2001 |
Galway | 72,414 | 2006 |
Lisburn | 71,435 | 2006 |
Limerick | 52,539 | 2006 |
As usual, conflicting claims will be made as to the city boundaries and whether one is comparing like with like, and while these are valid arguments, in the absence of a definitive comparison, the above figures are based on the published populations whatever the city limits were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.80.97 ( talk) 11:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is the wikipedia article on the British Isles naming dispute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute
This is relevant due to the current edit war over "Derry's walls are the most complete in the British Isles / Ireland ". The British Isles claim is not only incorrect but is being used as a proxy for the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.196.22 ( talk) 15:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Derry/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have given this article a rating of B for the following reasons:
|
Last edited at 00:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:29, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.
Is it just me or does all this constant renaming of the two Londonderry/Derry articles from one name to another strike anyone else as a little childish?
Clearly we need a compromise everyone can live with. I suggest we call the county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry". Or vice versa if anyone has a strong reason to prefer it the other way.
The explanation at the start of each article that there are two names should of course be kept.
No-one is going to win a renaming war and it makes the encyclopedia look pretty unproffessional. - Ikari (3 Mar, 2004).
I would certainly go for county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry" if there is to be a compromise. The county has only been "Londonderry" officially, while the town/city has been "Derry" originally, "Londonderry" in its city charter, and "Derry" in its district council name so 2-1 to "Derry". It doesn't matter much, but stability would be sensible. -- Henrygb 17:58, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm of Irish republican descent and live in northeast England. "Londonderry", as a coal mine owning family and as a place, are anathema to me. Nevertheless when on wikipedia NPOV means I expect to use "Londonderry" when referring to the County or City in Northern Ireland. The city's local government has changed its name to "Derry City Council" but cannot (sadly (my POV)) change the name of the area. garryq 09:28, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Given that "Derry" is not the official name, it should not be used in the article title. "Londonderry" is NPOV, "Derry" is not. -- Emsworth 17:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Incidentally, to offer my opinion on the above "compromise": whilst the efforts to reach a consensus are laudable, we cannot arbitrarily decide an unofficial name is to be used. Londonderry is in the United Kingdom; therefore, we should go by the name used by the British government. The Republic of Ireland may purport to determine the city's name, but doing so would be similar to the UK deciding that County Offaly should be known as King's County. -- Emsworth 21:08, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The City/district split is an interesting name - except that the official name of the local government district is Derry City Council. Try disambiguating that one... Gerry Lynch 09:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Derry has of course been at the top of the news today because of the floods. The BBC refered to the city as Derry throughout. I hope this data point is useful. Pcb21| Pete 23:14, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It should be noted that someone a few years back won a court case to get a parking ticket killed because it had "Londonderry" down as the city name, and the UK courts system ruled it didn't exist. I can probably dig up the article about it, I think it was after ireland.com started archiving. I think the fact that the UK courts system acknowledges the city is Derry and the county is Londonderry should set the precedent for whats done here
Here in the Republic all signposts pointing to it refer to "Derry" and that is what we call it. We just cannot use the name "Londonderry" because the term "London" being added to the old "Derry/Doire" name just feels too colonial - regardless of what the constitutional position of NI might be. Many Unionists in the North also call it Derry....except when the cameras are around of course. Even so, wikipedia is for everyone so leave it as Derry/Londonderry I suppose. And roll on the referendum! Peter O'Connell
The name 'Derry' was given to the city by the London traders, an anglicized version of the then village Irish name 'Doire' or 'Daire'. The Apprentice Boys of Derry and First Derry Presbyterian Church use the name of 'Derry' instead of 'Londonderry' due to the fact they where set up before the City adopted the name 'Londonderry' under the Royal Charter in the early 1700's. Thought presencently I see no resonse why the full irish version of 'Londonderry' of 'Londaindhoire' can not be aspect along with 'Doire', if people can aspect Derry/Londonderry why then is Doire/Londaindhoire not also given the same respect. The 'L' word as you mention was adopted by the council and the citizens of the city at that time, many of whom's descendent still life within the city. The name is nothing to colonialism as Ireland was never fully given colonial status, rather was allowed to keep it own Irish Parliament, and large self-government, until 1801. Even after 1801, Dublin was given more attention than Edinburgh or Cardiff. Ireland was not the same as Scotland and Wales, as they where directly control by westminister before and after 1801. Even today Nortern Ireland was the first of the three to recieve home rule from 1921 to 1972, and again from 1998 to 2005, and 2007 onwards, similar to the system of devolution for Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland has more MLA's than Wales has MA's and Northern Ireland has just over have the population size that Wales does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.22.121 ( talk) 01:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
The original compromise was to use Derry for the page title and County Londonderry for the county page title - it didn't cover the various terms in the article. I don't think anyone disagrees that officially before the walled city was built it was clearly Derry, then it was renamed Londonderry and still is in the city charter, but once Northern Ireland was divided into districts the local authority decided to call itself Derry City Council; local people understand both even if they use one or the other. It does look to me as if there is a trend towards some editors are pushing towards Derry excessively in the article and elsewhere, including in Template:IrishCities. Let's try to avoid a Gdansk/ Danzig position where one side tries to obliterate any mention of the other's preferred name even for historical events. -- Henrygb 01:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I`m of Irish descent, and I certainly don`t call the city by the name of "Londonderry" in conversation... for one, it just takes too long. All the same, the city and county of Londonderry are part of the UK, and according to the United Kingdom government the name of these two places are "Londonderry" - there is no debate here. Maybe before the changes to Articles 2 and 3 we could debate the idea under the notion that these cities are part of Ireland and that the Irish naming stands. But from now on, unless the city applies to have the city`s name changed officially... it is Londonderry. -- Ce garcon 05:11, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anyone know what this is? Googling is no help.
And yes, that is the city crest. Grim indeed.
zoney ♣ talk 00:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It has been reported [2]] that Derry City Council are inquirying into the legal status of the city name. Djegan 00:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some proposals (IMHO unsatisfactory) from compromise have been proposed here, but since both names are used (one offically and one by a majority of its citizens and the local authority whose district includes the city) why not call the article Derry/Londonderry to have no precendence (other than alphabetically) or even (London)Derry? Redirects from Derry and Londonderry can be made and there would be no controversy/naming POV in the article. Dainamo 16:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Could somebody explain to me why the people of Doire/Derry cannot just vote to change the name the coloniser put on their place? It is absolutely ridiculous that outsiders can determine the name of their place. It is time for the natives to wrest control of how they are represented from these British and their record-breaking egos.
I have attempted to put this article at Londonderry/Derry but someone put #REDIRECT Derry on it. Can an administrator please do this?
It was proposed below that Derry be renamed and moved to Londonderry/Derry - 195.188.51.5 11:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Score(Keep:22|Move:2)
Just a point, the place in Sligo you refer to is actually Derrymore, not Derry. The place in Wexford is Drumderry. Please take care to actually read the maps before referencing them inaccurately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.107.196.242 ( talk) 01:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
The name City of Derry strikes me as being a non-existent entity. It is the authority that holds the City Charter, which is Derry City Council making the district around the old walled city the City of Londonderry. Anything named Derry cannot be a city because it does not own a city charter. In it's current form this article is incorrect. Most people in Rochester still consider it a city but that doesn't change the reality that it isn't. It doesn't matter what popular opinion is in the city. They probably all want to stop paying taxes but it doesn't change the law. While you can call the article whatever you want the city name remains legally Londonderry. josh 03:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
You can start with no allowing popular opinion take priority over fact. Calling it City of Derry is equivalent to calling the council Londonderry City Council. I'm not concerned about what name is seen to be premoted although I prefer Derry over the hijacked version. The problem is that using the term City of Derry is unencyclopidic and condones the POV of the nationalists. Using City of Londonderry doesn't condone the unionist POV it is just the current status that coincides with it. josh 22:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The infobox is titled City of Derry. The sentence The name of the city is specified by its Royal Charter as Londonderry, and many unionists continue to call it Londonderry. also implies that the name Londonderry has been repealed by the councils decision to call itself Derry City Council. The article seems to purposely avoid the fact that the offical name of the city is Londonderry. By all means use Derry but it has to be made clear that while Derry is the popular name, Londonderry is the official one. josh 00:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the official name of the city is Londonderry. All nationalist and unionist preference aside, should we not be naming the article to fit the official name? A little web research informs me of the following:
While I am sure that a significant number of people (perhaps even a majority) refer to the city as Derry, the official name of the city remains Londonderry. Wikipedia might cover video games, TV series and websites, but it is still an encyclopaedia, and is relied upon for factual information by a great many people. The name of the article must reflect the official status of things. -- Jonathan Drain 01:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC) [5]
For what its worth, the Council website is WWW.DERRY.GOV.UK. The FAQ doesn't even mention the alternate name. My understanding is that the Council want to get their version recognised, but Stormont refuses to do so and Whitehall won't change the status quo. So it seems that there is a nice touch of mental gymnastics to reach compromise. The legal name is Londonderry, but only the name Derry will be used. So both sides are satisfied and both sides are dissatisfied. BtW, I notice that BBC articles always manage to use both forms in every article. So far, every Wiki article does too: the petty dispute seems to be which name shall be the main article and which shall be the redirect article? The present arrangement, where we have one of each (for the city and for the county), has been seen as equally unfair and the majority of people have accepted it without too many revert wars. I trust that anyone who wants to re-open the debate has read all the relevant articles going back at least 1000 years. One needs to learn the flickers of the eye that allows people to pass each other in the street without bumping. This is one. -- Red King 23:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Jonathan has a very valid point about other contributors being from the Republic. We must remember that Jtdirl, Kiand, Djegan, and Red King are all contributors from the Republic of Ireland and will inherently have at least an Irish bias (if not also a nationalist one). This point is again being ignored. I recall there was a vote a while ago (along with a lobbying campaign by Djegan) where a very large proportion of the voters ended up being from the Republic. jtdirl - you are very quick to assume bad faith, (something I note that you seem to do as a habit by also looking at your talk page) and seem to use the "NPOV" clause as one to back up your own POV. Perhaps this issue would be best solved by input by those from outside of Ireland. Jonto 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The official name is far too controversial to be used as the only name here. As mentioned, it was called "Londonderry" because it was colonised. The displaced people are now the majority in the city, and as such it is insensitive to them to just use "Londonderry". Also, the British Tory government in the 80's allowed the city council to call itself "Derry City Council". Equally, Unionists would resent it just being called Derry on wikipedia. Therefore, in the spirit of compromise call it Derry/Londonderry. Otherwise wikipedia's impartiality is under question. I would point out too that the Loyalist Apprentice Boys's official name is "Apprentice Boys of Derry", so they don't seem to mind calling it Derry sometimes. - Peter O'Connell
I just removed (and deleted) an image of Nadine Coyle from this article. It had no copyright information, the uploader's only contributions were uploading the image and putting it in this article, and an image of Nadine Coyle licensed under CC-SA exists at the Commons. If this page's regular contributors believe that an image of Coyle belongs in this article, the free image article is http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Girl_Aloud_1.jpg . Thanks for understaning. Jkelly 20:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "Derry/Londonderry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "Derry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Does anybody have a map of Derry city before and after gerrymandering with information on votes versus representation? Thanks.
Regarding recent edits by Lapsed Pacifist whilst some of them are clearly pov, I believe that the edit as of 20:50, 31 December 2005 is acceptable the only infraction being over linking. As for the removal of two people these people are clearly of County Londonderry and not the city, so should not be in this article. Anyone in agreement (with me) as I am reluctant to start a revert war in his favour (without consensus)? Djegan 21:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Regarding that website we do not place links on websites to maintain a "NPOV", I have no more intention of maintaing a nationalist or loyalist link - its simply linkspam not "personal views", dont attempt to take the moral high ground because you got burned here before - view the website, mostly links to otherwebsites and not substantial. Notwithstanding I will leave the link unless someone else removes it, but wikipedia is not a link farm either. Djegan 14:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The two names solution seems like a fair compromise at this point. However, it is almost certainly the wrong way round (I think anyone would tell you this, to be fair) - calling the city "Londonderry" and the county "Derry" would bring things much into line with actual usage.
Surely if it is the wish of the majority of people in Northern Ireland to remain in the UK and they want that respected, then why is it that the Majority of Derry City (Doire, L'Derry) who are of Irish culture and beliefs, cannot have their city called Derry officialy?? Surely if Unionists wish people to respect their majority beliefs then they muct also do likewise for the majority peoples of Derry! -- úsádaoir éireannach 01:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Having now read more of Djegan's edits, I am inclined to agree with your point Mr. Bell. Djegan does appear to be quite neutral. As such I have deleted my own comments above. However, I made those comments originally, based on the fact that Djegan deleted some comments that I had made. My comments had in turn been made in response to somebody else's comments. Those comments were made by a person who was ridiculing the name Londonderry, and they were doing so from an Irish Republican perspective. Nobody deleted those comments. Djegan chose to delete my reply, but never considered deleting the original comments that had provoked my reply. As such I concluded that Djegan was an Irish republican sympathizer. I now retract that conclusion having read a wider range of Djegan's edits.
Actually, having worked and known people in Belfast and Derry for several years the standard term used seems to be Derry, unless we're in extremely volatile regions. So my vote goes for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.159.138 ( talk) 16:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The "standard term" doesn't matter. What should matter is the actual name, which is Londonderry. Mooretwin ( talk) 20:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The majority of people min the city want to call it Derry, and the majority of people in the county want to call it County Derry. Therefore thats what they should be called.
>> That's all well and good, but an Encyclopedia has nothing to do what they think. It has everything to do with what the current state of affairs is. The city is called Londonderry, so this is what it the article should be called.
The audacity of some people to claim that an Irish city and county shuld have an English prefix is startling.
>> Not half as startling as the mental incapacity of some people to fail to realise that, like it or loathe it, the city is part of the U.K. Whether it 'should' have an English prefix is irrelevant. It does.
theres a river through the city, on the east side of the river people want to call it london derry, on the west side people want to call it derry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.197.61 ( talk) 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that the images require cleanup? I don't think that a photo of centra is really necessary to the article, and the craigavon bridge photo is way too close to the bottom of the page.
Just to note that the Infobox pin coords produce different results for the red dot mrking the city in the district using different skins. I cannot see what to adjust in Template:Infobox Irish Place -- Henrygb 10:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The BBC on 7th April 2006 says that the name issue is now going to a court of English Common Law and will be settled there: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4887352.stm
Sorry I dont have an account so im not logging in! Firstly thought it would be great if Wikipedia refered to the city as stroke city and made a link from both derry and Londonderry to that page. The city is still officially called Londonderry but to continue calling it that when it is resented by many people to me seams like a daft idea. I wish both communities could come together and give the city a new name and it would save a lot of bother. Lets refer to the city from now on as stroke city on wikipedia and do away with the Nationalist/Unionist bias.
if the council is officially the 'mayor, burgess and aldermen of the city of londonderry' that implies the city and the district are considered one and the same entity, so wouldn't changing the name of the district be enough? 82.35.13.34 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
"And wheras the City of Londonderry is presently administered by Derry City Council (the name of the council having been changed by virtue of an Order made pursuant to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 on the eleventh day of April 1984 and effective from the Seventh day of May following) And wheras the Mayor, Aldermen and citizens of the City of Londonderry are desirous that the said Arms including the Harp may be borne with lawful authority by the said City And wheras Cathal Logue Town Clerk and Chief Executive Officer of Derry City Council hath on their behalf requested that we reconsider the premises and evidence for the use of the Arms..." (and so on). The letters patent certified the arms (with the harp) to the City of Londonderry. They are dated the Thirtieth day of April in the year of our Lord Two Thousand and Three. This is interesting, as every certificate I have seen from the College of Arms was dated using the monarch's regnal year. The Queen doesn't get a mention in the document, although the Kings of Arms making the grant are members of the Royal Household.
It also means we have to replace the arms image. Lozleader 16:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says in official use the city is always known as Londonderry, but as a citation it provides a BBC article. Should this be removed/or at least the citation changed?
Londonderry is the official name, so I think the title of this article should be Londonderry—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.219.8.6 ( talk • contribs)
From WP:IMOS The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate. Which leads me to say that Owen Roe GAC other gaa clubs and its catergory should be all named derry as the GAA is mainly a nationalist past time and as stated here nationalist prefer the usage Derry . Would anyone agree ? ( Gnevin 12:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC))
Does anyone else think we should make mention of the two main diferent area in Derry, ie the city side and Waterside? In fact we should probably have separate articles for both as well, but I think they defiently deserve a mention in this article as well.
What does everyone else think? ( Derry Boi 10:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC))
The whole name dispute is all very interesting and all that, but I think we should drive to actually improve this article. I've been bold and taken the liberty of rating the article a class B (see top of page). I think now, while consensus can never be reached I'm sure, that it's time to carry on with the task of trying to make this a GA-class article. Any further suggestions? Mouse Nightshirt 00:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually looking at the article it has an impossible number of sections, 20m major and 5 minor. Can we trim them down, is their anyone that particularily is interested in doing this? Djegan 22:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The courts have said the offical name of the city is Londonderry. As this is the offical name, as well as the alternative name of Derry being said not to be the name, the article should be renamed back to its proper name of Londonderry. A reference could be made that the councils name is derry and state clearly that the offical name is Londonderry.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6297907.stm —-- 81.145.241.252 18:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
We all know what the official name is. We also know what most people in the city call it. I think the current compromise is the best. It isn't ideal, but Wikipedia works by consensus and to insist on Londonderry for both city and county would result in an edit war. That wouldn't help anyone. For the record, I think the court made the right decision given that no-one really cared about the name until the council name was changed in 1984 - changing the official name now would cause further division.
I don, however, wonder whether "In official use the city is always known as Londonderry" with the link to a BBC News website. Does that account for official use. The BBC often use Derry - their rule is that the first mention of the city in a news report is LD, the rest is just D.
NotMuchToSay 20:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The article really should be at Londonderry yes. That would be the most 'neutral' with respect to what its called.-- Josquius 12:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I've provided nothing new? What on Earth are you talking about, this is the first time I've posted in here....-- Josquius 12:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Note as well that the official name of Dingle, County Kerry is An Daingean but look what the article name is on Wikipedia. It doesn't have to be the official name that is used. For English speaking countries it usually is - but not always. NotMuchToSay 19:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This so-called "compromise" is an absolute joke. No such "compromise" exists in reality - both the city and county are nationally and internationally recognised as "Londonderry" (internationally excluding RoI with it's natural bias). Wikipedia cannot just start making things up just because Irish nationalists have the pettyness to avoid saying the word "London". "Derry" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Londonderry, just as "Carrick" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Carrickfergus and "Ards" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Newtownards. The usage of "Derry" throughout wikipedia articles certainly should not be discouraged, but to use a shortened form of the city's title (as has just been confirmed in a court of law in the juristiction) for the article's title is just completely unencyclopaedic.
A more sensible and factual compromise reflecting reality would be do to as the major media outlets do - to have both county and city at Londonderry, but to allow either term to be used throughout the encyclopaedia, with editors reverting any petty edits that are simply changing one form to the other. Palo999 15:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The compromise is backwards to me. The city is Londonderry. It was founded as Londonderry and has always been Londonderry. Derry was a utterly different town which over the industrial revolution gradually became a part of Londonderry like many other towns around the world. The county however I see as Derry as that is what it has always been, Londonderry was founded in Co.Derry.-- 82.39.147.71 17:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I dont really see much about natinalists tryin to revert the County Londonderry home page back to CO Coleraine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.241.57 ( talk) 09:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC).
Why is Londonderry's official name not provided in Gaelic? Admittedly due to the political situation, it's unlikely you'd regularly hear anyone talking about Londaindoire or Doire Londain but surely it should be consistantly expressed in Irish as it is in English and Ulster-Scots? I would propose that it is included -- Breadandcheese 22:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The legal name should be used. The section of the article concerning the name is adequete to explain that many people disagree with the name. As someone who wouldn't care if it was renamed Derry (should the pupulation vote that way) i find it ridiculous this so called encylopaedia has taken to a political compromise. If an anti death penalty group asked you to change some articles on capital punishment to 'state murder', would you do that just to appease them? 9again speaking as someone agaisnt the death penalty anyway). Wikipedia should use the legal name for the city and the county as it stands now according to law, and decided upon by the High Court. To call it Derry when the legal term is otherwise, is just politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.30.132 ( talk) 18:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Isnt an encyclopedia to give correct accurate information, if wikipeidia, decides, just to change the name of the article to make some people happy, even when they are incorrect, then the encyclopedia loses all crediblity. If the city and counties names where ever changed offically then i would accept the change, but until such a time, the name should remain Londonderry for both county and city.
No,we don't need a compromise that everyone can live with, we need to see the facts presented as they are. You start mucking around like this in an attempt to satisfy local opinion - which has nothing to do with your brief, by the way - and who knows where it will stop?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 12:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
If the name of the city is going to be called Derry there is a mistake 4 lines down where it refares to its as the old walled city of londonDerry.
The name of the city is and always has been LONDONDERRY. Londonderry is the official and proper name. Shouldn't that be the name of the article? There is no such place as "Derry". That was a former city that no longer exists, Londondery being built in its place but because of political correctness and petty anti-British sentlement we have to put up with a bogus and offensive name for the place? Let's not forget Ulster is BRITISH. Why should we have to compromise? Londonderry is its name by Royal Charter, a position that has not been revoked and hopefully never will be. YourPTR! 11:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Both names are actualy wrong it should be called Doire and we should be arguing over whether to call it Doire or Derry adding a London at the end is just too long a name . Dubhead
Right... Like Baile Átha Cliath is the "real" name of Dublin?? Okaaaay!! Strangely Dublin still prevails... ;-) The comparison could be made with Istanbul/Constantinople. The Greeks' road signs all point to Constantinople (which is the name I personally would prefer) but no-one does not accept that the city's official name is Istanbul. In my own view, this article should be called Londonderry, even although I use "Derry" myself interchangeably with it, until such time as the official name is changed. You have to recognise the reality of the official state of play, until such time as circumstances may change. What if the articles on St. Petersburg or Volvograd were called Leningrad and Stalingrad respectively, and this was presented as their current names? Or if I renamed the Dún Laoghaire article Dunleary or Kingstown? 132.185.240.122 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
LONDONDERRY is the official name, and is what it should be called. The name Londonderry was passed in court as the official name when it was tried to be changed to "derry". As wikipedia is designed to be neutral, Londonderry should be the proper name for this topic, and not "derry", as this is favouring the people who call it the unofficial "derry"
This 'agreement' is a disgrace. The city is called LONDONDERRY under British law which both the UK and ROI governments recognise as the legal jurisdiction - in line with EU law which supercedes both. The county is also called LONDONDERRY. Only the Council area is named DERRY. Wikipedia should not allow itself to be used as a political pawn and should uphold information in line with the legal agreements in place. Poodler - 13/09/2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.229.156.40 ( talk) 15:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is ridiculous, wikipedia is supposed to give accurate, IMPARTIAL and purely factual information, this article needs to be renamed to LONDONDERRY. 82.41.100.220 ( talk) 21:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Stop being racist its Derry not Londonderry. Also talk about the double decker bridge. I think thats kind of unique and would be notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.237.144 ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
In what strange dimension is calling the city Londonderry rather than Derry "racist"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.224.235 ( talk) 20:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
This should be changed, Londonderry is part of the U.K and the U.K call it Londonderry, just like India change their city names to Mumbai etc, Wikipedia should follow the official line of that country, not the few and to reach a so called consensus with the few on Wikipedia. This is truly where Wikipedia is pathetic
. --
Rockybiggs (
talk)
14:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
The article title should read LONDONDERRY. It is the LEGAL name. To call it anything other is unprofessional and is certainly POV. This goes by the consensus of Wikipedias NPOV rules. Not the panderings of individuals who take it upon themselves to make "compromises." As such it should be changed to it's proper name and not a name given because so called editors can't follow the rules they claim to follow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.162.120 ( talk) 00:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of which side you take in this discussion make sure that you don't break existing links to pages. If you change the text in a link make sure that the new text has the correct page name applied as well, or add a redirect. srushe ( talk) 17:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I personally refer to the city as Derry, because it's shorter, and I don't have strong political views. But the city is officially called Londonderry, and if this is an encyclopedia, we should name the article accordingly. If we ever merge with the Republic, they will almost certainly change the name back to Derry, but until then, why is this even under discussion? It's like renaming the Mumbai article to Bombay.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.231.118 ( talk) 12:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's absolutely right. This is ridiculous. I don't know how this whole Wikipedia thing works, but it's supposed to be an encyclopedia and deal exclusively in the facts. There is, in effect, no city called Derry so why, why, why is this article called Derry??? It's absolutely ridiculous. The previous contributor refers to the Mumbai example and there are probably lots of others - are you going to start adjusting all your entries headings in this utterly contrary fashion..? Incidentally,t's a reflection of the effectiveness of the republican propaganda machine over the years that you even feel the need to consider this. It usually doesn't occur to the do-gooders who want everyone to be happy that in attempting to placate minority opinion, you're actually offending the majority - but we've been living with it for years now, so we're probably practically immune. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 10:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Now we're losing the plot completely..! - Gracey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 13:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Why would "the majority of Northern Ireland", who after all don't live in Derry, have any say in the name of the city? Change Belfast to Londonbelfast if you wish, as a citizen of Derry I have no right to oppose that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.165.124 ( talk) 15:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
** I haven't read though the entirety of this because I'm from the city and I'm sick and tired of the whole thing, but I noticed that you state that as 'an agreed compromise' you'll adopt this silly Derry City/County Londonderry thing. Can I just ask, why does Wikipedia feel the need to adopt this 'compromise' in relation to the name of this city? Surely the point of this site is to provide the facts as they stand? The name of this city is not, as you have in your heading, Derry. Do you regularly depart from printing the facts and instead adopt a 'compromise' in order to satisfy some local opinion? Where else have you done this?
I just ask this because I'd like to know if Wikipedia is presenting me with the facts or with a version of the facts which is, in fact, not factual. Could you tell me what your policy is on this, because frankly, I think it's quite ridiculous that you've done this. It's the thin edge of the wedge and users really have no idea from here on whether what they are reading on Wiki is actually right.
You should amend this to reflect the name of the city as it stands now - and as a court has just ruled that it will stay - and note in passing in the text that there is some controversy over the name. That would have been the sensible and factual way to do this. - Gracey' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 ( talk) 12:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Image:Ulsterbus Foyle.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 16:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Can some please confirm for User:Biofoundationsoflanguage that the derry/londonderry compromise does not apply to the name of Derry GAA or organisations in general . That the compromise only applies to the legal geographic regions in the north known as county Londonderry and Derry the city ( Gnevin 08:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC))
Not to go into a long rant, or coming from any kind of polictical standpoint, but this is an encyclopedia. It is supposed to represent the facts. Th city's name is Londonderry, factually and legally, regardless of popular sentiment. It is named so on maps, signage and legal documents. It makes a mockery of the notion that Wikipedia is encyclopedic by pandering to politicised editors. The title should be Londonderry, and the naming dispute should be a portion of the article. Anybody who disagrees is not fit to edit this page or call themselves an editor. 84.70.196.197 23:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Northern Ireland has been in existance since 1921 and Londonderry's district council has only been officially called Derry City Council since 1984. However its official Royal Charter status can only be changed by the monarch so the city is still officially called Londonderry. As Londonderry resides in the UK and its official name is Londonderry, the article should be called Londonderry. Derry City Council can retain its name on its page as thats the councils official name - not the city's. Neutrality wise how can you object to the official spelling of the city?
The only people who truely object are the large amount of Irish republicans/nationalists that are on Wikipedia. Why can't they put aside their political bias on the topic, its such clear bigotry on the matter. London was added as a prefix to derry in recognition of the London companies job in rebuilding the city after the Irish originally destroyed Derry. Yet nationalists in their anti-Britishness feel like its Britains way of imposing their authority over the city, but then why not call Armagh, Londonarmagh if thats the case etc. etc?
Secondly Londonderry was built on the west bank of the river Foyle as oppossed to the original east-bank location of Derry (which as said was destroyed by Irish), so you could say its an entirely new settlement near an older settlement that lied across the otherside of the river, so you could say this new settlement was called Londonderry from its birth and thus the name Derry is defunct.
In fact you can blame the Irish for the creation of Londonderry for if they never totally destroyed the originally settlement of Daire in the first place it would never have had to have been entirely rebuilt by the London companies. But then again maybe King James should have called the city Derrie as he originally planned. Mabuska 00:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a mountain of discussion on this already. Please go back and read the archives to find out how the present compromise (City of Derry, County of Londonderry) came about. It has all been discussed ad nauseam many times before. -- Red King 22:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I was a little hazy before. The point I was trying to make is that these aren't the people that make the name of the city, despite the fact that it is. Here's a snip from self-identifying names:
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
Y'know, maybe the name should be Derry considering that it is the right thing to do for the residents. However, we cannot declare what a name should be just because some monarchs named it quite unfairly. We can only declare what it is and the name is Londonderry. Wikipedia didn't choose the name, the residents of the city didn't choose the name, the monarch did. We cannot prescribe what is write or wrong. We can only report it. Reginmund 23:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
That is the exact point that I have been trying to make. Yes, the name ought to be Derry but it isn't Derry; it is Londonderry. Wikipedia should record what is and not what it ought to be. Reginmund 02:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Could I also point out to readers in this that some Unionist uses of fact can at times seem abit hypocritical on Wikipedia. If I take Traditional Unionist (user) for example, here you campaign for the article to be renamed Londonderry along with Counter-revolutionary (user)
I have raised this point earlier not to mock, but to try and perhaps show you that what is indeed fact may not be correct in the minds of people with opposing views.
Why can I see the infobox on Northern Ireland cities and towns turning into another flag issue? I've reverted back to the UK location infobox for a couple of reasons. One, regardless of the polictics Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the UK info box information is more relevant. Two the Ireland infobox shows NI and locations on it without any part of the surrounding "other country". It simply looks weird to see NI floating in space. What I don't want is a revert war (I'm looking at least at two likely candidates here *glare*). Part of me wonders if a specific NI template might be a compromise. -- Blowdart 20:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The meta tag for the title is "Official name". Well, the official name in UK law (which has jurisdiction) is Londonderry. Of course the official name chosen by the Council is Derry. So it seems to me that we should have both. If the purists insist that we can't have that compromise, then the only single option is Londonderry. There is a strange symetry in having the article called Derry and the infobox title as Londonderry. It (dis)satisfies both traditions equally! -- Red King 19:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I am saddened now again to see that as well as the frustrating "naming issues" that have arisen within the Derry/Londonderry/Doire articles, there is now some people from Unionist backgrounds looking to UK infoboxes for towns/cities as well as the counties. While i agree in principle with further additions to infoboxes for northern and indeed southern counties, i fail to see Blowdarts issue for changing town/city infoboxes within the north. There has been no issue upto this point with northern townland and city infoboxes. I have researched Wikipedia infoboxes for UK cities such as Cambridge, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh and the only infoboxes in these cities to show any consistancy are the Scottish ones, which differ significantly from their English counterparts. In conclusion, as there is no consistant UK-wide infobox for towns/cities I am happy to keep northern town/city infoboxes as they are. This being said, I am still expecting others here to now request a different "northern" infobox from that of the Irish town/city infoboxes for no reason other that they fear similarity with our island neighbours! Lets concentrate in updating the great history and culture content of our towns and cities rather than ruin them with petty political debating!-- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 08:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be fair to define a "place of interest" in the city to be one that has historical, cultural or educational merit. Of the places listed in this section, there are several I would consider removing. It would appear that a few have been added as a cheap advertisement:
I will conduct the above changes in the next few days, if there are no objections.
Marmite disaster 23:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Generally speaking, we don't predicate titling decisions on either original names or official names. The most relevant naming convention advises us to use the most common name for the place. It has been argued that Derry is more common, and it has also been argued that Londonderry is more common, but there is no consensus that either of these is the case. Thus, there is no consensus to move the page at this time. Dekimasu よ! 04:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Derry → Londonderry — Londonderry is the official name of the city [10] — Reginmund 00:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Lets search some Ireland based websites using the same methodology I have adopted above (because the views of Irish-based academia and media count to). I have tried to avoid very biased outlets, like ideology or political based stuff (but again these are raw and unfiltered results so caveat emptor as returned from a quick google).
In total thats 121,410 for "Derry" and 9,066 for "Londonderry" - or seven websites in which Derry is more common than Londonderry and two websites in which Londonderry is more common than Derry. Four websites based in Northern Ireland, and five websites based in the Republic of Ireland. Djegan 01:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Indeed as a final point about sources lets remember that whilst its easy to quote results returned from a trendy online search engine (abeit not always an exact science) their are many other things that can be used to measure how common a name is. The occurence in all the books in a national library, periodicals and printed newspapers of every type, addresses in a database, interviews of personalities, entertainment, organisations, manuals of style, old ladies on street corners in conversation. In summary we should not fall down by quoting results from just one source. The internet is not the sum of human knowledge, nor the pinnacle of human society. Djegan 01:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The matter of the status of Londonderry is rather academic for the purposes of a move proposal. In particular, the guidelines WP:UCN WP:NCON maybe useful for reference. In summary, the official name of something is not always the name used for the article title. Djegan 14:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
There are vast differences between the naming issues of Derry/Londonderry and that of Hull. I have seen instances where authors in wiki are either forgeting or just erasing the fact that the term Derry (Doire) is not just a short-form of the name Londonderry but was the original name for the settlement, this is why it is still so commonly used by people not just in Derry, but throughout the world. It cannot be simply dismissed as a short-form name as it was commonly used for the area long before Londonderry. I believe the guidelines as per the guidelines WP:UCN WP:NCON should be used in relation to this article. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 16:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Londaindoire is the Gaelic for Londonderry not Doire. Doire is only Gaelic for Derry. So i've included Londaindoire alongside Doire at the start as its only right the Irish for Londonderry the city's official name is stated just as it is in the Gaelic Wikipedia Doire page which if it is good enough for it there its good enough for it here. There should be no objections to this as its not politically divisive but informative. Mabuska 00:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Due to the riduclous poltical corectness of Londonderry/Derry/L'Derry/That place up north west/The walled city/Foyle or whatever you wish to call it i feel the need to add L'Derry as it has now become the "standard" pc thing to say as it suposedly helps both side but ultimitly dosent at all. I am checking here before i do it. Thanks YellowSnowRecords 08:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
If it seems to be a bad idea, that is because it is most likely a bad idea. Just throwing that out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.80.114 ( talk) 16:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This was always traditionally the case and Londonderry is indeed often called the second city but since the year 2000 it is now the third largest city in Northern Ireland after Lisburn, whose city population in the 2001 census was larger, was granted city status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.113.48.9 ( talk) 12:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your input YellowSnowRecords2 08:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you'll find the population of Lisburn and Lisburn City Council are very different. The main settlement of Lisburn has a population of 71,465, whereas the Council District which covers a much larger area than the urban area has a population of over 108,000. So by terms of population by either urban area or core area Derry is still larger than Lisburn. 15:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Surely Craigavon is the second largest city, or was meant to be at least? 86.42.98.32 ( talk) 03:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Craigavon was planned as a Second City a long time ago. The settlement failed to develop and meet it's population quota and even now it's population of around 56,000 is nowhere near what NIRSA recognises as the population of a city (75,000 or more). 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
There has been a silly edit war over the entry in the infobox. I see no decent reason to have Londonderry first given that:
Please discuss this rather than have the silly edit war. I would like to hear of any explanations about why people think the above reasoning is wrong. violet/riga (t) 13:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The article is misleading enough as it is, given that it is named erroronously, but to open it with "Derry or Londonderry" is wrong. It is Londonderry, sometimes refered to the shortened version of Derry. Traditional unionist ( talk) 21:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
(sigh*) - To avoid repetition on queries regarding any issues, opinions, facts, or grievances with the articles names Derry, or its sister articles name County Londonderry as accepted by Wikipedia, please refer to the discussion above that took place a couple of months ago. All POV, facts etc. are clearly presented there! If we have any opinions on enhancing the informative content on the city, its culture, history or future, by all means please keep posting! -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 18:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The infobox is a disaster. It should only have the name per the article title. Two variations on each line points to confusion. Djegan ( talk) 23:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph states: "It is one of the only places in Europe not to have its defensive walls breached". I'm not clear whether "one of the only places" is supposed to mean "one of the few towns" or "the only town". There are quite a few others: e.g. Berwick-upon-Tweed; Brasov; Avila; Lucca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariwara ( talk • contribs) 23:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
why does this article have no mention of the troubles? are you trying to pretend it didn't happen? under famous events you have some whale but no mention of Bloody sunday? isn't that odd? are you just trying to delete it from history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.99.137 ( talk) 15:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The official name is Londonderry, and the official name for the County is Co.Londonderry.
Therefore Wikipedia is not correct by calling it "Derry".
No need for a compromise, "Londonderry" for both city and county --90.241.138.28
cover all I was trying to say. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 10:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
As I've said before the compromise is backwards. Co.Derry was there long before Londonderry was built so the county should be at Derry. Londonderry however was built with this name- it was a totally seperate town to old Derry, its just over the years they both sort of grew into each other (as was common everywhere). It was Londonderry though that was recognised as the dominant city in this and IIRC from which most of the growth happened. -- Him and a dog 16:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
It really is ludicrous that nationalist POV editors have decided to entitle this article using an unofficial name. The High Court has now ruled that the name of the city is "Londonderry", FFS. Any encyclopaedia worth its salt would entitle the entry "Londonderry" and then go on to explain the dispute within the article. It seems that there is a conspiracy of nationalist editors on Wikipedia determined to get their way, regardless of the facts. Mooretwin ( talk) 08:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
This is ludicrous, millions of people call it LA. I would bet more people say LA then Los Angeles,but we don't call it LA. A city should be called what the LEGAL name of the city is in the language of that city. Would you call it Lenningrad because the few communists left in Russia want to return to the old days? This is a classic example of Wikipedia using misinformation. You can call an apple an orange all you like, but it's STILL an APPLE 63.26.97.20 ( talk) 03:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)eric
What is sad here is that some people cannot accept compromise for the greater good. Hiding behind fact when it suits their POV. I am heartened to see somewhat that this debate has moved on into more interesting topics such as the City Walls etc. however it seems a small number of people still cant seem to break away from old political POV's. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 10:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else agree that the article's structure is a bit unorthodox and illogical? To have shopping and night-life as first-level headings seems a little odd to me. I'm willing to have a go at improving it, but I wanted to gather some thoughts/suggestions from other editors first. Cordless Larry ( talk) 13:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice restructuring yesterday, Cordless. From all the red in the diffs, I first thought you had deleted a lot more than you had. Have you considered putting it forward for a Good Article review yet? I am no expert on the criteria, but at least the naming edit war seems to be at a low enough level now (and so quicky reverted by regulars) that I hope it would not hinder GA. The prose isn't perfect, but then that is one thing that always gets worked on hard when an article is a Featured Article Candidate. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 05:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Four line quotations from speeches are common on Wikipedia, but not of songs, especially without commentary. However I thing they are great and would also add There is a green hill far away. How do you think we should justify them to a good article reviewer? -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk)
I bet he wears a bow tie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NotThatWay ( talk • contribs) 04:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
In an attempt to move this article closer to good article status, it could do with some more references. I've tagged a few sections that are lacking them, and any help would be appreciated. Cordless Larry ( talk) 21:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Barryob added a reference to substantiate the removal of "perceived" from the sentence about discrimination. The below is my response: Using Whyte as a source for Government discrimination isn't quite wrong, but is a gross simplification. "The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland. " Whyte is not an adequate source for what you claim it to be. Traditional unionist ( talk) 20:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- "The unionist government must bear its share of responsibility. It put through the original gerrymander which underpinned so many of the subsequent malpractices, and then, despite repeated protests, did nothing to stop those malpractices continuing The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland".
I've twice removed the Irish Londaindhoire from the introduction but I've now realised that it's in the infobox too. Given that there are only 9 Google search results for this version of the name (most of them being a result of this article), is it wise to include it? Cordless Larry ( talk) 23:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be removed--it appears to be the same person inserting this. Hohenloh ( talk) 05:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I must admit I'm deeply sadden by your arrogance towards any rendering of the name Londonderry fully into the Irish langauge. I believe it would have help promote the Irish Langauge to the unionist community, showing them that this langauage also respect there right to use the name of 'Londonderry' instead of 'Derry' if they so wish. Yes, I will admit there are many how are unsure if the spelling 'Londaindoire' is correct, due to the complicated rules of written Irish compared with written English. But there is no need to discrimated against people on this issue. I had hope that this would have had a more positive outcome but it seem that either the operators of this site or the people that visit it are determind to allow blind sectarianism run riot: Northern Ireland has moved on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.42.35 ( talk) 01:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
You can keep your joke of a language ulster scots. In Ireland it is called Derry and in the ancient Gaelic language it is called Doire. Why should this be anglasised for the unioinist community. Also there is no need to troll every GAA team and catholic town changing the county to londonderry. They are both acceptible names for the county. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.229.0 ( talk) 21:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Absolute rubbish, if it wasn't for the English and the Scots settlers the ancient Irish would still be living in mud huts in the Bogside! There wouldn't be a gracious city called Londonderry, just some shanty town like Buncrana or Letterkenny to take some local Irish Republican examples! --
78.33.101.58 (
talk)
16:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
No I'm afraid what you're saying is absolute rubbish. What happens when you drive over the border from the Republic to the North? The answer is you go from a nice, wide road to a narrow road with lots of dangerous bends. A classic example is on the N2/A5 road between Dublin and Derry. NI is a neglected part of the UK. The quality of housing is also better in the Republic, with more people actually owning their homes. And Letterkenny isn't a "shanty town", as you claim. Footyfanatic3000 ( talk) 20:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
You can argue as much as you like but the official name is LONDONDERRY and that is good enough for me. The Nationalists and Republicans in Londonderry City Council tried to change it by reference to the Northern Ireland High Court in 2006. Fortunately, the Court saw sense and ruled against the council and their, what is really a petty name change.
The city is Londonderry and has been since the early 17th century and long may it be so whatever anyone else sees fit to call it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Maiden City ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I am rather suprised how edgey some people are when it comes to the name of this city, and quite frankly I find it rather unnessecary to argue over the name of Northern Ireland's second city. This rubbish posted about if Londonderry is fully written in irish as 'Londandoire' would be a 'British Victory' is complete and utter nonsense. Those that wish to demise one of the four langauges of Northern Ireland (alongside English, Ulster Scots, and N.I. Sign Langauge) rather than to promote it is the bigger fool. This is republican proganda and I cant believe after forty years of genocide across Northern Ireland they wish to pledle such sectarian rubbish. While the so called leaders of Republicanism and Nationalism are trying to build a stable way of life here for are country, the grass roots see their sole prupose to bring Northern Ireland back to the days of greef and misery. I am a Northern Irish citizen of the United Kingdom and I have enshrined in the law of two nation states and a regional assembly the right to include both the british and irish asspect into my cultural idenity as a citizen of Northern Ireland/Tuaisceart Éireann/Norlin Airlann. It is time for once in this country dark history to look forward and seek a better day our six counties of this wonderful province I call "Ulster, My Home!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.235.23 ( talk) 01:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, to pre-quash the Republican Retaliation for this, I would like to point out that i believe as Londonderry has a majority Republican population, it should be part of the Republic of Ireland. But regardless of this, the name of the city is Londonderry, and until this is subsiquently officially changed; wikipedia should go by the official name. If wikipedia is going to start using crazed, none official names, then why not rename the Falkland Islands article 'Islas Malvinas' and Istanbul 'Constantinople'. This is a joke. Why is Wikipedia taking the side of the Republicans in all this and at the same time, doing so against the offical name! Nonsense. Absolute Nonsense. ( Umbongo91 ( talk) 20:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC))
Actually, it is a majority Nationalist population, NOT Republican! ...and BTW not so many of them would want to come under the auspices of the Irish Republican Government...a bit like having their cake and eating it !! -- 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 14:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone work out why the attributions for the bottom two sets of song lyrics in the references in popular music section aren't displaying? Cordless Larry ( talk) 11:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Why not just have the article called "Derry / Londonderry" and have redirects to it from "Derry" and "Londonderry". MrMarmite ( talk) 15:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Traditional Unionist, do you do anything constructive on Wiki or just drop random inflamatory posts? Try going into the free state and looking for a sign for Derry, then assess wether there is anywhere in Ireland called Derry! -- 193.61.159.26 ( talk) 20:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This couldn't be done due to the way the wiki software works. Derry/Londonderry would have Londonderry as a subsection of Derry. A similar compromise was tried with the Sega megadrive (called the Genesis in the US) and this issue arose.-- Him and a dog 17:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This explanation included in the possible origins of the coat of arms seems rather suspect:
A new claim has recently discovered a new possible explanation for the shield of arms. There is a popular legend that a man in the 13th century of the Slocum clan led a charge against foreign invaders. In this charge, 300 brave Irish Catholics from Derry died trying to uphold their firm belief in the universitality of their ideals. The legend declares that the final death cry of these brave young men was, "Forever shall we live in truth! That is our Victory!"
In particular the bit that mentions "300 brave Irish Catholics" sounds silly when all of Western Europe was catholic at this time, who exactly were they fighting against. Sounds like something to wind certain people up I'd say.
Since no one seems to be bothered I'll just remove it.
This is ludacris. The High Court has ruled the City to be called 'Londonderry', the city charter clearly states 'Londonderry', the name of the city is 'Londonderry'.
On accuweather, they call the city 'Derry, Ireland', and I am beginning to think that American institutions are biased towards the Republican Community! Regardless of Religion, Politics, What ever, the city only has one official name; 'Londonderry'
The article being called Derry is a joke, 'Derry' is a none-official name not legally recognised by anyone but the dissident Sinn Féin group and the IRA.
Wikipedia stands to simply represent the facts, what is right, and seeing how the Istanbul argument is NOT called Constantinople, and Beijing is NOT called Peking, and Mumbai is NOT called Bombay, Londonderry should NOT be called Derry.
All those who support this please state below with a comment. This MUST be changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umbongo91 ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
"'Derry' is a none-official name not legally recognised by anyone but the dissident Sinn Féin group and the IRA." Apart from the Republic of Ireland government... --
193.61.159.26 (
talk)
02:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
The article currently states that Derry is the "last remaining city in the British Isles to be surrounded by defensive walls". This is supported by the second citation [26] (an article in the Sydney Morning Herald), while the other citation at the same place in the article [27] (from the University of Ulster) says "It is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland". Should the article say Ireland or the British Isles? York and Chester have walls, but I'm not sure of the "completeness".
I ask as I noticed the issue when dealing with vandalism from 78.148.165.124. His other changes are wrong and not supported by the citations, but this one at least deserves discussion. srushe ( talk) 19:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
York and Chester are complete! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
You can't block me - like all talk talk users my IP address is dynamic! Anyway who do you think you are to censor my contributions! Look up Chester in wikipedia and see that its walls are complete therefore invalidating the use of the term "British Isles" in the offending paragraph which has therefore only be used for purposes of political propaganda in the context of the Northern Irish dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The article about Chester's walls does. They are broken only to allow an access road, same as Derry's walls. You're not from Derry are you? Nor Chester by the sounds of things. Oh well at least we're not fighting over the city name ........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Derry's are complete the same way Chester's are. Strictly speaking neither city has complete walls as both have access roads breaching the walls to allow access for Heavy Goods vehicles, in Derry's case at Linenhall Street. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 ( talk) 21:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I dont see much wrong with the way 7.150.164... has edited a page. Wikipedia is all about editing, and sometimes people disagree. He has in fact now been proven to have been right when OFenian has had nothing to back his argument other than "British Isles are here to stay, whether you like it or not" showing his colours so to speak. Certainly casts a dark cloud over his motives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.181.167 ( talk) 17:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Chester's City walls are complete. View the map on page 13 (7 of 12): http://www.chester.gov.uk/PDF/20081013Chester_Attractions_Booklet.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.146.216 ( talk) 18:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Could someone in Derry right now go take a photo of the road through the walls sometime soon? That should solve this. This is a really strange and silly argument going on.-- Him and a dog 18:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Can someone list the references here that are being disputed? The article lists one - are there more? - Travel article in Sydney Morning Herald which in fairness is not the best source for the claim being made. But I'm sure there were better ones? -- HighKing ( talk) 19:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Chester Reference:
http://www.chester.gov.uk/PDF/20081013Chester_Attractions_Booklet.pdf
Chester City Council website: "The short section of Castle Drive in front of this building is the only true break in the circuit of walls - which were demolished in 1901 as part of the layout of Castle Drive." [29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 ( talk) 20:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Well we can go back to the fact the Derry's walls are not complete either ..... However what part of the previous statement that part of Chester's walls were demolished in 1901 didn't you understand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 ( talk) 21:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Whar reliable source is there saying that Derry's walls are complete? We have a CLAIM to say they are possibly the MOST complete ("most complete" and "complete" are very different) however anyone who has ever visited the city would know they didn't need a grappling hook to traverse Linenhall Street when passing between our two shopping centres! The walls are not complete, just like Chester's are not complete. (For example: My father has the MOST COMPLETE head of hair of all his brothers - my father does not have a COMPLETE head of hair!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.181.167 ( talk) 11:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Chester's walls are not complete. "The short section of Castle Drive in front of this building is the only true break in the circuit of walls - which were demolished in 1901 as part of the layout of Castle Drive." Source: Chester City Council website [30]
However Conwy Town Walls are "completely intact" and are also a Unesco World Heritage Site. http://www.visitconwytown.co.uk/
Just because Chester specifically admits a break and Derry does not doesn't make it so. Anyone who has been to Londonderry can tell you quite clearly that part of the wall has been knocked down. I'd really suggest as a conclusion some definate proof be found- someone should go and take a picture of the gap in the walls. Less good, if no one is in Derry, is emailing the council about it. I'm sure they wouldn't lie.-- Him and a dog 11:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Here is a map of the city- http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/towns/derry.gif . Look in the bottom right of the map. It clearly says 'modern breach'. Thats where the main access road goes. As you yourselves say nearly complete is not the same as complete. If someone could dig up a map from a more reputable site than ireland story that should be enough to prove it too.-- Him and a dog 11:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Chester's walls are not complete as stated by the Chester City Council website: A section was demolished in 1901. However Conwy's walls are completely intact. [31] The debate has moved on: it is no longer Derry versus Chester because Derry would seem to be more complete though neither is totally complete. But Derry would seem to be less complete than Conwy. Therefore "Conwy is the most complete set of walls in the British Isles". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.183.51 ( talk) 14:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Northern Ireland Government website states "The city is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland" [32]. I think given the fact that Conwy is undeniably complete that this is as far as the claims for Derry can go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.183.51 ( talk) 14:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Heres some more proof:
clicky clicky. I couldn't put the marker right on the breech but its just north of there. Market street runs across the inside of the wall then newmarket street clearly goes through a hole in it. I've wrote to the council too but no word from them yet.--
Him
and a
dog
17:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia would have you believe there is no censorship but there clearly is by trying to ban people's IP addresses and disabling editing of articles:
VirtualSteve censored this article on 23rd March 2009. Deacon of Pndapetzim has attempted to censor this article on 30th March 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.28.35 ( talk) 17:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Deacon of Pndapetzim: You haven't protected Derry, you've censored it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.117.89 ( talk) 17:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I've fully protected this page due to the edit warring. Please discuss fully on the talk pages. Canterbury Tail talk 19:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Fact 1: Conwy's Walls are "completely intact" and are also a Unesco World Heritage Site. [33]
Fact 2: If fact 1 is correct then the statement that "Derry's walls are the most complete in the British Isles" cannot be correct and so must be removed or changed to "most complete in Ireland" or reworded or something. But it cannot remain unchanged purporting to be fact.
Blimey. You're really opposed to all change in the article aren't you?
As I've said- yes, Conwy isn't a city, its a town. But to pretend it doesn't exist just because of that is very
weasel worded. Its really not much of a stretch to include Conwy as a minor note and make clear that as a town it 'doesn't count' in the best city walls stakes.
As far as the main topic is concerned I've yet to see any reliable sources definatly state in context that the walls are 100% complete and no hole exists- which anyone with any experience with Derry knows it does. Not that it should matter. This really is the most trivial revert war ever you've got going here.--
Him
and a
dog
08:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
So I wrote to Derry council for verification of what I saw when I was in Derry. I'd be hapy to forward this email to anyone and you're welcome to check up on it yourself.
Dear >my real name<
You are correct. There is a break in the wals to allow road access coming from Orchard Street to Newmarket street and the walls then resume along the side of the Millennium Forum. Regards
Margaret Edwards
Derry City Council Heritage & Museum Service
Original Message-----
From: Paul Irwin Sent: 01 April 2009 09:34 To: Margaret Edwards Subject: FW: Feedback Form
Hi Margaret,
the following email has been received through the Councils website and has been forwarded for your attention/information.
regards,
Paul
Original Message-----
From: Feedback [34] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:51 PM To: Paul Irwin Subject: Feedback Form
The following is a Comment from the Derry City Council website.
Full Name :: >>nom<< Email Address:: >mine removed< Department:: City Marketing Comment:: Hello, I'm wondering if you can solve a minor dispute for me with regards to Derry city walls. I'm certain that on Newmarket Street there exists a (modern) gap in the walls to allow for heavy goods access. Someone else however is certain that the walls to this day remain 100% complete. Which of us is correct?
-- Him and a dog 14:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)I asked for additional references some time ago, and none have been forthcoming. I agree that the article should be changed to quote the reliable source - that is the University of Ulster website which states that the walls are the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland and one of the finest examples of a walled city in Europe today. The second reference from the Sydney Morning Herald is not a reliable source since the Travel article is refering to a 2nd hand conversation, without quoting. That is what the references that we have produced to date state, and that is all that can be supported in the article. -- HighKing ( talk) 21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
The vote is whether the sentence that "Derry is the last remaining city in the British Isles to be completely surrounded by defensive walls" conflicts with the fact that Conwy in Wales has a completely intact set of walls that are also a UNSECO World Heritage site. Should the sentence therefore be changed to read "Derry is the last remaining city in the Ireland to be completely surrounded by defensive walls" so as not to conflict with Conwy's claim?
I vote to change the sentence - 1 for change / 0 for status quo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.68.105 ( talk) 13:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd have to vote against because Derry is not completely surrounded by walls.
Additionally though the differences are often trivial a town is not a city.
HOWEVER it is weasel worded to say Derry has the most complete city walls and not mention that though this is the case as far as cities are concerned if we're talking about settlements in general then you should look to the town of Conwy--
Him
and a
dog
14:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Let's keep all private emails (unreliable sources), opinions about walls and gaps in walls (original research), Conwy (a town, therefore not relevant to a sentence about cities) and anything else like that out of this section. This is what reliable sources say;
Therefore according to multiple reliable sources Derry's walls are regarded as complete/intact, and the most complete/intact in the British Isles. O Fenian ( talk) 13:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
If or when this page becomes editable again, could this sentence please be sorted out, as it does not make sense: "Apart from this local government decision, official use within the UK the city is usually known as Londonderry." At a minimum, inserting "in" before "official use" might work. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered ( talk) 14:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
While it seems that everyone is now exhausted and bored debating whether Derry has the most complete walls in the British Isles or just Ireland due to Conwy's conflicting claim, we cannot just leave this article locked forever. Therefore a decision needs to be made........
Change the sentence! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.109.32 ( talk) 16:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
What I'd go with is Derry's are the most complete city walls in the British isles- though the
town of
Conwy has better.
Except better worded of course. I'm sleepy. --
Him
and a
dog
18:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The name Derry relates to the old town which existed prior to the Plantation of Ulster. This town or large village as it probably was at the time was located on the east bank of the River Foyle where the Waterside district now exists. The walled city on the west bank was a new development built by settlers and named Londonderry, it was never ever known as Derry. To call it such now is inaccurate and makes a mockery of the whole Wikipedia ethos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 15:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I would if there was any point in it. Seems that Wikipedia operates on the basis of their own law ie one law for them and another for everyone else! An independent arbiter would be the only proper way to go but hey, they couldn't even agree on that eh Ding Dong? -- 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 00:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest somebody brings this up here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ethnic_and_cultural_conflicts_noticeboard
The legal name used on signs and maps is not being used here purely due to sectarian politics. The fact the entire talk page virtually is an endless debate on this proves its validity for going higher.
I know there's arguments about 'consensus' and 'compromise', but anybody can easily mobilise yet more politicised editors in pointless straw polls, and cold hard facts don't require compromise, which is an insult to the concept of truth. Nationalist sentiments should always be subservient to reality, be they Republican or Unionist. Personally my politics swing neither way, but I am frankly shocked by how people can distort the facts so effectively because they personally don't like the way things are in actuality.
People here have proven they can't be relied upon to be objective or adult, so I suggest it should be moved to independent arbitration and left at that. If you truly believe in the validity of your arguments, there should be no problem, only for those who realise their positions are built on foundations of straw and like-minded biased editors will have an interest in blocking such a move by allowing people without a stake or agenda to decide the future name of the page. 90.219.158.254 ( talk) 22:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The issue doesn't need arbitrated, it has already been settled. (Read further up for how this settlement was arrived at, how the term Derry is more commonly used than Londonderry etc.) What you mean is you don't like the agreed compromise of Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. Whether this is legally correct isn't the issue here, Wikipedia is not a legal document. It is an encyclodpedia and the city is more commonly known as Derry, albeit maybe officially known as Londonderry, but this is mentioned in the article. And do you think if you manage to change the article name to Londonderry that that would resolve the issue and end the "endless debate"? Not a chance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.48.204 ( talk) 16:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Instead of artbitration, just apply for your new Irish passport using the term "Londonderry". The Irish government have stated that they will now issue passports with this inscription if you desire. Of course you have to have been born in Derry to do that but sure if you weren't born in Derry you wouldn't be interested in the name of this article anyway, now would you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.190.81 ( talk) 17:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
And so it should be as most of the people of Northern Ireland / Ulster think the same. Such a glorious city with such a glorious history of valour and defence by its former people against the treacherous insurgents. It is no wonder that the celebrations to mark such a wonderful achievement has been carried on down the centuries by so many sons and daughters of Ulster.
Even the Northern Ireland anthem which is played at the Commonwealth Games is properly referred to as "The Londonderry Air" with the lyrics to 'Danny Boy' amongst others being sung to it.
The CAA code for City of Derry airport is LDY being the abbreviation for Londonderry.
Go to Google Maps and type in 'Derry' and see what comes up! .....seems they have got it right! -- 78.33.101.58 ( talk) 17:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Yet again I've had to protect this page. It's protected for all for two weeks now. There is still no consensus on the talk page, and continuous editing and reverting going on on the article. Canterbury Tail talk 21:43, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I've just stumbled upon this whole naming dispute now and can't believe that the article is called Derry when it is accepted (and legally ruled) that the city is named Londonderry. If the term 'Derry' is in more common use surely this is because it is shortened slang, and most people would say the city's correct name is Londonderry. Stuff like this is why Wikipedia will continue to be berated for compromising and pandering to groups who want to change the truth. There is no need for a compromise when it is a simple fact that the city is named Londonderry! I am British but couldn't give two hoots on this issue, from what I see it has been blown out of all proportion by groups who want to use this as a political weapon. I just care because it is Wikipedia and Wikipedia should do what an encyclopaedia does and present the facts. CompactDistance ( talk) 21:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Thats not what the current locking is about FYI.
But, since we're there; the majority of the population in Bombay call their city Bombay. But where does wiki have the article...?--
Him
and a
dog
16:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Quote from the wiki article on British Isles: "The term "British Isles" is controversial in relation to Ireland, where there are objections to the use of the phrase and the government of Ireland discourages its use.[10][11][12] "Britain and Ireland" is a frequently used alternative name for the group". But the problem with this is that stating Derry's walls are the most complete in "Ireland and Britain" is incorrect because of Conwy which are the most complete in Britain but also because Derry is not in Britian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.52.125 ( talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Macedonia has a similar, if different, naming controversy due to Greece's refusal to recognise the country's choosen name. What to call the article has been resolved on Wikipedia using the following criteria:
Common names prioritised. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) prioritises "the most commonly used name" because "using a full formal name requires people to know that name, and to type more."
How Macedonia self-identifies. Macedonia self-identifies formally as the "Republic of Macedonia" in its constitution and its government affairs [35], and uses "Macedonia" as the common short form of this formal name. Approximately two-thirds of UN member states, including all but two of the English-speaking countries, use this name.
Usage by other reference works. Almost all of the reference works (encyclopedias, dictionaries, gazetteers etc) available via Credo Reference and Oxford Reference Online use the term "Macedonia" as the conventional short form of the country; most also use "Macedonia" by itself as the name of their articles on the country.
Using the above Derry wins out on "Common names prioritised" and "Self-identifying names prioritised" while Londonderry probably wins "Daily usage by English Media". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.169.88 ( talk) 18:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Given the long-awaited decision by the Government of the Irish Republic to finally acknowledge that the third largest city in Northern Ireland can be referred to by them as Londonderry, I propose the whole concencus wrt the name be revisited BBC News Irish News. The Irish Government by their action have now confirmed what most people in Northern Ireland and the UK for that matter, have always known and accepted, and that is that the proper name for the city is Londonderry. The people didn't need a High Court Judge BBC News or the Government of the Republic Irish Dept of Foreign Affairs to tell them what they already knew.
You are now entering LONDONDERRY! Irish Times.
I propose that the lead name be the proper and legal title of Londonderry and that the coloquial term 'Derry' and the Irish name 'Doire' be given as secondary information. -- The Maiden City ( talk) 08:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
There have been some claims that Lisburn is the second city of Northern Ireland. For the record, according to the 2001 Census:
City | Population |
---|---|
Belfast | 267,500 |
Derry | 83,652 |
Lisburn | 71,435 |
And for Ireland:
City | Population | Census Year |
---|---|---|
Dublin | 505,739 | 2006 |
Belfast | 267,500 | 2001 |
Cork | 119,143 | 2006 |
Derry | 83,652 | 2001 |
Galway | 72,414 | 2006 |
Lisburn | 71,435 | 2006 |
Limerick | 52,539 | 2006 |
As usual, conflicting claims will be made as to the city boundaries and whether one is comparing like with like, and while these are valid arguments, in the absence of a definitive comparison, the above figures are based on the published populations whatever the city limits were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.80.97 ( talk) 11:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is the wikipedia article on the British Isles naming dispute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute
This is relevant due to the current edit war over "Derry's walls are the most complete in the British Isles / Ireland ". The British Isles claim is not only incorrect but is being used as a proxy for the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.196.22 ( talk) 15:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Derry/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have given this article a rating of B for the following reasons:
|
Last edited at 00:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:29, 2 May 2016 (UTC)