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I think the Reactions section is biased towards Amber Heard. Some examples:
In the Livestream sub-section, a law professor and a journalist are quoted criticising the decision to livestream the trial. No alternative views are presented and the text does not attempt to explain or contextualise the decision to livestream.
In the Social-Media Coverage sub-section, the online reaction against Heard is criticised, with sources cited claiming it was the work of the alt-right and savvy PR amongst other things. It feels like the whole sub-section is just pulling quotes from various pro-Heard sources and stitching them together into an article. Rather than quoting a journalist claiming it to be the work of the alt-right, shouldn't Wikipedia be citing actual evidence (if any exists)? The reader is left with the impression that the online reaction against Heard is the work of nefarious forces rather than simply being many people sharing the same view about her credibility. Is Wikipedia not meant to be anything more than a collection of quotes from selected sources?
The same sub-section also says, "Legal commentators and Heard's attorneys suggested that, because the jury was not sequestered, the social-media coverage of the trial may have had an influence on the final verdict." This seems entirely pointless and unencyclopaedic speculation. Heard's attorneys are hardly reliable sources for such claims and the statement is so woolly anyway that I don't see the value in it, besides reinforcing the view that the verdict is somehow flawed. "Suggested that", "may have had"…it's basically unsubstantiated speculation. Lollapalooza4725 ( talk) 10:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
We could add what he said in the lead to balance it maybe?" in reference to the juror's rebuttal of Amber Heard's legal team's assertion of the jury being influenced by social media. Examining the sources in the lead and the article section more closely, the claim clearly originated from Heard's lawyers. The Today source contains a video of a television interview Elaine Bredehoft gave on June 2. This is the original source for the claim. Vice and ABC News are the references used to source similar commentary from Paula Todd, Mary Anne Franks, Carl Tobias and someone named Sandra Radna, who are the only four people to repeat this claim. Both of these sources are dated the day following Bredehoft's interview. So the claim did indeed originate from Heard's legal team, per the sources in this article. The NPR source was published on June 15, and contains nothing but quotes from Heard's attorney from the aforementioned Today interview, and quotes from Heard's interview with Savannah Guthrie. In the meantime, we have commentary from a juror specifically denying this claim. I recall that it was already explained to you on this page that if you want to include allegations of actual criminal wrongdoing on the part of the jury (i.e., not following their jury instructions), then much better sourcing is needed, and that it's WP:UNDUE WP:CHERRYPICKING to repeat the claim in the lead without also mentioning the specific denial from the jury. There are no "BLPPRIMARY" issues with the juror's refutation of the claim, unless you're claiming the juror somehow works for Deadline or any of the multitude of other sources cited in that article section? Homeostasis07 ( talk/ contributions) 20:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Homeostasis07::
The "claim" originated from Heard's lawyersunless you have reliable sources claiming this, this statement is your own WP:OR.
has been specifically refuted by the jurorthis is a fact and is supported by reliable sources. However it doesn't mean much, of course they would say that wouldn't they? See Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies applies. Also: a revert with a clear motivation isn't edit warring and I second @ Jerome Frank Disciple's comments. {{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 10:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
one juror denied this was the case{{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 23:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
I see @ Homeostasis07 has added the neutrality banner to the whole article citing this discussion: [1]. As we are just talking about minor points in the whole article here I do not think it is appropriate. What are exactly your issues with the entire article? I would remove it unless we have more consensus over widespread issues. {{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 10:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I was a little surprised that @ Homeostasis07: accused me of pov pushing and edit warring. To be honest, I hadn't remembered many interactions with him—although I did thank him on his talk page when he reverted an edit I had made by mistake. I glanced through the article history, and, unless I've missed something, I hadn't reverted Homeostasis07 once—and it was as to the edits discussed here. And, as is relevant to this section, Homeostasis07 was first reverted by User: Gtoffoletto; I merely commented that I agreed with that decision. Then, Homeostasis07 then made separate edits, which I reverted for the reasons I detailed above. Still, I wanted to make a full response to the accusations.
Response
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For background: In terms of new content, I've added very little to the article. For the most part, I've worked on addressing what I perceived to be organization and grammar issues, weasel words, and a few verifiability issues. I will concede that most of my edits have probably gone towards descriptions of those critical of the trial, but, as demonstrated by both this talk page and the article history, I have a fairly established record of editing and expanding on content on both sides. For example, when I noticed an issue with the quotation regarding saying the trial was a victory against cancel culture and a boon for male victims of abuse, I didn't erase the content for the misattribution—rather, by diving into the sources that were provided and searching for others, I expanded it ( discussion here). I properly attributed the cancel culture line to Tomi Lahren, and I separately detailed points made by another author, Kellie Lynch (diff). I also once reverted Gtoffoletto when he removed some praise of the trial from the article (though I later agreed with him as to the removal when he explained that his basis for removal was specific to the lede, which I had missed). I can't guarantee that I've never removed substantive content from the article, but a quick look at the history will show that I've (1) worked on sourcing issues; (2) worked on expanding the substantive content, usually for clarity or organization purposes; and (3) reverted editors who remove content for, I think, faulty reasons. Homeostasis07's record is not quite the same. If Homeostasis07 has made any edits expanding on pro-Heard or anti-trial talking points, I have not seen them. But he has, many times, argued such commentary should be removed. He previously argued (in a discussion I was not involved in) that Michel Dauber's commentary should be removed because, according to his own determination, Dauber was not a neutral source. Gtoffoletto pointed out that his analysis was original research, and FormalDude called it a "ridiculous claim". He also argued we should remove the Vice/The Citizens study on the Daily Wire's expenditures on anti-Heard content. When I listed several other sources that reported on the Vice/The Citizens findings, he suggested that the only appropriate one to cite was a source that didn't include the monetary amount, for a reason that, once asked about, he never elaborated on. And, finally, here, he argued that commentary by a barrister who specializes in sexual violence shouldn't be included. The barrister, Christine Proudman, argued that the question of Heard's supposed mental illness—raised in court and well-commentated on by the press—was a pattern of "victims of domestic abuse are labelled with sexist diagnoses", and that the headlines and accusations both stigmatized people with mental health and undermined the credibility of victims who come forward. [2] Homeostasis07 called this view "fringe", despite the fact that Proudman was neither the first or, by far, the only commentator to express it. [3] [4] [5]. |
In short: I think I've consistently adhered and demonstrated by commitment to NPOV. I've also had productive conversations with editors who I may, at first, disagree with, and reached compromises. Even when I have reverted editors, where possible, I've tried to propose a compromise version of the text rather than performing a full revert (e.g., [6]), and, on other occasions, I've often gone to the talk page to fully explain why I've made a reversion rather than just reverting and walking away (in addition to this section, see, e.g., here). I've absolutely made mistakes, this is a contentious subject and it can be easy to feel defensive in recurring discussions, but I don't think either of Homeostasis07's accusations have merit.-- Jerome Frank Disciple ( talk) 14:43, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
If you want to include the juror denial in the lede, by all means—it's a primary source, but it's fine to say that a juror denied that he and others on the jury were influenced by social media" and Gtoffoletto: "
We could add what he said in the lead to balance it maybe?") agreeing that the juror's refutation could be included in the lede, you've both edit-warred over it. Homeostasis07 ( talk/ contributions) 20:47, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes or manually reverses other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." (bold added). I don't actually think further discussion of this is necessary; I've always said we could include the juror comment in the lede, if you wanted it there, and I eventually added it myself, so, as I see it, there's no continuing issue. If you'd like to go to ANI, of course feel free. In case you do find it helpful or desire an explanation, I've included an explanation of my edits below (and the logic, I think, clarifies why exactly a series of consecutive edits can count as a single revert), but as far as I'm concerned we can all move on and get back to improving the article.
Response
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@ Starship.paint: I reverted your most recent edit for a few reasons. As we already have discussed, your evaluation of the Bloom quote is original research—perhaps even synthesis. You have determined—possibly by relying on other reliable sources—that Bloom's take is false, and you have therefore labelled it "misinformation" and decided that Wikipedia should censor it. As we discussed above, the appropriate thing to do is to present both arguments, not censor one. You say the source for the Bloom quote is faulty—which is a misapplication of the context-specific analysis WP:RSP endorses and, frankly, is a little rich coming from someone trying to replace the Vice source with an Entertainment Weekly source. (From RSP: EW is greenlit for "entertainment related" articles)-- Jerome Frank Disciple ( talk) 14:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello! I am ... tentatively ... planning on reworking the trial section. I'm hopeful I can find a summary of the trial, particularly in a source like a law review (though trials are rarely recounted in law-review articles). It's a pet peeve of mine when articles on trials include day-by-day, witness-by-witness descriptions (as I don't think such a description comports with summary style, and, unfortunately, many high-profile trials are described in that fashion on Wikipedia—mostly because it's easy to find day-by-day reports by the media sources covering those high-profile trials. Here, somewhat surprisingly, there's ... no real description of the trial? Which should obviously change, but the trick will be summarizing it.
Anyways, before I start ... I was actually wondering whether the witness list is appropriate under WP:BLPNAME. I've generally been of the opinion that its fine to include the names of already notable witnesses, particularly relevant witnesses, and trial experts (experts are hired and voluntarily insert themselves into the event), but I'm not sure every witness's name should be included. Fact witnesses can be subpoenaed and frequently (though, to be clear, nowhere near always) not actually interested in testifying. I'm also fairly comfortable in saying that a prose description of the trial wouldn't require the names of most of these witnesses—you could say, for example, "the general manager of the Eastern Columbia Building" without identifying the person.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Who wrote that part? Quoting unkown news sites? tweets? What? Usually when you want to talk about coverage you quote a juror or a profesional lawyer or an official news sites, not a tumblr blog. 2800:A4:31B2:B000:758A:57F8:99BE:FE78 ( talk) 10:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
In the new movie "Fall Guy" with Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt, Depp and Heard's relationship was referenced in the film, which was picked up by several reliable media outlets: The Cut, Hollywood Reporter, The Independent, and People . Two characters got in a fight in a trailer and a character commented "Looks like Johnny and Amber were in here".
I noticed there's a section on this article about media coverage that are adapting this case (ex: true crime shows, podcasts covering the case, books), but there is nothing about spoofs or references in other media. Given how culturally significant this was, I wonder if it is time to add a 'Media representation' tab to specifically mention non-adaptation sources? I know SNL spoofed the case, which is not referenced in this article but shows how notable this court case was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8R3EXXlKxg&pp=ygUQaGVhcmQgdiBkZXBwIHNubA%3D%3D
I'm sure people have other examples. Anyone have opinions on if I should add these two joke/comedy references in other media under the 'Media Coverage' tab and note that they are references/spoofs, or should a new tab be created? Squiddyonwiki ( talk) 02:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Depp v. Heard article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 14 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Depp v. Heard was copied or moved into Testimony in Depp v. Heard. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 3 times. The weeks in which this happened: |
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
I think the Reactions section is biased towards Amber Heard. Some examples:
In the Livestream sub-section, a law professor and a journalist are quoted criticising the decision to livestream the trial. No alternative views are presented and the text does not attempt to explain or contextualise the decision to livestream.
In the Social-Media Coverage sub-section, the online reaction against Heard is criticised, with sources cited claiming it was the work of the alt-right and savvy PR amongst other things. It feels like the whole sub-section is just pulling quotes from various pro-Heard sources and stitching them together into an article. Rather than quoting a journalist claiming it to be the work of the alt-right, shouldn't Wikipedia be citing actual evidence (if any exists)? The reader is left with the impression that the online reaction against Heard is the work of nefarious forces rather than simply being many people sharing the same view about her credibility. Is Wikipedia not meant to be anything more than a collection of quotes from selected sources?
The same sub-section also says, "Legal commentators and Heard's attorneys suggested that, because the jury was not sequestered, the social-media coverage of the trial may have had an influence on the final verdict." This seems entirely pointless and unencyclopaedic speculation. Heard's attorneys are hardly reliable sources for such claims and the statement is so woolly anyway that I don't see the value in it, besides reinforcing the view that the verdict is somehow flawed. "Suggested that", "may have had"…it's basically unsubstantiated speculation. Lollapalooza4725 ( talk) 10:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
We could add what he said in the lead to balance it maybe?" in reference to the juror's rebuttal of Amber Heard's legal team's assertion of the jury being influenced by social media. Examining the sources in the lead and the article section more closely, the claim clearly originated from Heard's lawyers. The Today source contains a video of a television interview Elaine Bredehoft gave on June 2. This is the original source for the claim. Vice and ABC News are the references used to source similar commentary from Paula Todd, Mary Anne Franks, Carl Tobias and someone named Sandra Radna, who are the only four people to repeat this claim. Both of these sources are dated the day following Bredehoft's interview. So the claim did indeed originate from Heard's legal team, per the sources in this article. The NPR source was published on June 15, and contains nothing but quotes from Heard's attorney from the aforementioned Today interview, and quotes from Heard's interview with Savannah Guthrie. In the meantime, we have commentary from a juror specifically denying this claim. I recall that it was already explained to you on this page that if you want to include allegations of actual criminal wrongdoing on the part of the jury (i.e., not following their jury instructions), then much better sourcing is needed, and that it's WP:UNDUE WP:CHERRYPICKING to repeat the claim in the lead without also mentioning the specific denial from the jury. There are no "BLPPRIMARY" issues with the juror's refutation of the claim, unless you're claiming the juror somehow works for Deadline or any of the multitude of other sources cited in that article section? Homeostasis07 ( talk/ contributions) 20:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Homeostasis07::
The "claim" originated from Heard's lawyersunless you have reliable sources claiming this, this statement is your own WP:OR.
has been specifically refuted by the jurorthis is a fact and is supported by reliable sources. However it doesn't mean much, of course they would say that wouldn't they? See Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies applies. Also: a revert with a clear motivation isn't edit warring and I second @ Jerome Frank Disciple's comments. {{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 10:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
one juror denied this was the case{{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 23:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
I see @ Homeostasis07 has added the neutrality banner to the whole article citing this discussion: [1]. As we are just talking about minor points in the whole article here I do not think it is appropriate. What are exactly your issues with the entire article? I would remove it unless we have more consensus over widespread issues. {{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 10:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I was a little surprised that @ Homeostasis07: accused me of pov pushing and edit warring. To be honest, I hadn't remembered many interactions with him—although I did thank him on his talk page when he reverted an edit I had made by mistake. I glanced through the article history, and, unless I've missed something, I hadn't reverted Homeostasis07 once—and it was as to the edits discussed here. And, as is relevant to this section, Homeostasis07 was first reverted by User: Gtoffoletto; I merely commented that I agreed with that decision. Then, Homeostasis07 then made separate edits, which I reverted for the reasons I detailed above. Still, I wanted to make a full response to the accusations.
Response
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For background: In terms of new content, I've added very little to the article. For the most part, I've worked on addressing what I perceived to be organization and grammar issues, weasel words, and a few verifiability issues. I will concede that most of my edits have probably gone towards descriptions of those critical of the trial, but, as demonstrated by both this talk page and the article history, I have a fairly established record of editing and expanding on content on both sides. For example, when I noticed an issue with the quotation regarding saying the trial was a victory against cancel culture and a boon for male victims of abuse, I didn't erase the content for the misattribution—rather, by diving into the sources that were provided and searching for others, I expanded it ( discussion here). I properly attributed the cancel culture line to Tomi Lahren, and I separately detailed points made by another author, Kellie Lynch (diff). I also once reverted Gtoffoletto when he removed some praise of the trial from the article (though I later agreed with him as to the removal when he explained that his basis for removal was specific to the lede, which I had missed). I can't guarantee that I've never removed substantive content from the article, but a quick look at the history will show that I've (1) worked on sourcing issues; (2) worked on expanding the substantive content, usually for clarity or organization purposes; and (3) reverted editors who remove content for, I think, faulty reasons. Homeostasis07's record is not quite the same. If Homeostasis07 has made any edits expanding on pro-Heard or anti-trial talking points, I have not seen them. But he has, many times, argued such commentary should be removed. He previously argued (in a discussion I was not involved in) that Michel Dauber's commentary should be removed because, according to his own determination, Dauber was not a neutral source. Gtoffoletto pointed out that his analysis was original research, and FormalDude called it a "ridiculous claim". He also argued we should remove the Vice/The Citizens study on the Daily Wire's expenditures on anti-Heard content. When I listed several other sources that reported on the Vice/The Citizens findings, he suggested that the only appropriate one to cite was a source that didn't include the monetary amount, for a reason that, once asked about, he never elaborated on. And, finally, here, he argued that commentary by a barrister who specializes in sexual violence shouldn't be included. The barrister, Christine Proudman, argued that the question of Heard's supposed mental illness—raised in court and well-commentated on by the press—was a pattern of "victims of domestic abuse are labelled with sexist diagnoses", and that the headlines and accusations both stigmatized people with mental health and undermined the credibility of victims who come forward. [2] Homeostasis07 called this view "fringe", despite the fact that Proudman was neither the first or, by far, the only commentator to express it. [3] [4] [5]. |
In short: I think I've consistently adhered and demonstrated by commitment to NPOV. I've also had productive conversations with editors who I may, at first, disagree with, and reached compromises. Even when I have reverted editors, where possible, I've tried to propose a compromise version of the text rather than performing a full revert (e.g., [6]), and, on other occasions, I've often gone to the talk page to fully explain why I've made a reversion rather than just reverting and walking away (in addition to this section, see, e.g., here). I've absolutely made mistakes, this is a contentious subject and it can be easy to feel defensive in recurring discussions, but I don't think either of Homeostasis07's accusations have merit.-- Jerome Frank Disciple ( talk) 14:43, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
If you want to include the juror denial in the lede, by all means—it's a primary source, but it's fine to say that a juror denied that he and others on the jury were influenced by social media" and Gtoffoletto: "
We could add what he said in the lead to balance it maybe?") agreeing that the juror's refutation could be included in the lede, you've both edit-warred over it. Homeostasis07 ( talk/ contributions) 20:47, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes or manually reverses other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." (bold added). I don't actually think further discussion of this is necessary; I've always said we could include the juror comment in the lede, if you wanted it there, and I eventually added it myself, so, as I see it, there's no continuing issue. If you'd like to go to ANI, of course feel free. In case you do find it helpful or desire an explanation, I've included an explanation of my edits below (and the logic, I think, clarifies why exactly a series of consecutive edits can count as a single revert), but as far as I'm concerned we can all move on and get back to improving the article.
Response
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@ Starship.paint: I reverted your most recent edit for a few reasons. As we already have discussed, your evaluation of the Bloom quote is original research—perhaps even synthesis. You have determined—possibly by relying on other reliable sources—that Bloom's take is false, and you have therefore labelled it "misinformation" and decided that Wikipedia should censor it. As we discussed above, the appropriate thing to do is to present both arguments, not censor one. You say the source for the Bloom quote is faulty—which is a misapplication of the context-specific analysis WP:RSP endorses and, frankly, is a little rich coming from someone trying to replace the Vice source with an Entertainment Weekly source. (From RSP: EW is greenlit for "entertainment related" articles)-- Jerome Frank Disciple ( talk) 14:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello! I am ... tentatively ... planning on reworking the trial section. I'm hopeful I can find a summary of the trial, particularly in a source like a law review (though trials are rarely recounted in law-review articles). It's a pet peeve of mine when articles on trials include day-by-day, witness-by-witness descriptions (as I don't think such a description comports with summary style, and, unfortunately, many high-profile trials are described in that fashion on Wikipedia—mostly because it's easy to find day-by-day reports by the media sources covering those high-profile trials. Here, somewhat surprisingly, there's ... no real description of the trial? Which should obviously change, but the trick will be summarizing it.
Anyways, before I start ... I was actually wondering whether the witness list is appropriate under WP:BLPNAME. I've generally been of the opinion that its fine to include the names of already notable witnesses, particularly relevant witnesses, and trial experts (experts are hired and voluntarily insert themselves into the event), but I'm not sure every witness's name should be included. Fact witnesses can be subpoenaed and frequently (though, to be clear, nowhere near always) not actually interested in testifying. I'm also fairly comfortable in saying that a prose description of the trial wouldn't require the names of most of these witnesses—you could say, for example, "the general manager of the Eastern Columbia Building" without identifying the person.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Who wrote that part? Quoting unkown news sites? tweets? What? Usually when you want to talk about coverage you quote a juror or a profesional lawyer or an official news sites, not a tumblr blog. 2800:A4:31B2:B000:758A:57F8:99BE:FE78 ( talk) 10:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
In the new movie "Fall Guy" with Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt, Depp and Heard's relationship was referenced in the film, which was picked up by several reliable media outlets: The Cut, Hollywood Reporter, The Independent, and People . Two characters got in a fight in a trailer and a character commented "Looks like Johnny and Amber were in here".
I noticed there's a section on this article about media coverage that are adapting this case (ex: true crime shows, podcasts covering the case, books), but there is nothing about spoofs or references in other media. Given how culturally significant this was, I wonder if it is time to add a 'Media representation' tab to specifically mention non-adaptation sources? I know SNL spoofed the case, which is not referenced in this article but shows how notable this court case was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8R3EXXlKxg&pp=ygUQaGVhcmQgdiBkZXBwIHNubA%3D%3D
I'm sure people have other examples. Anyone have opinions on if I should add these two joke/comedy references in other media under the 'Media Coverage' tab and note that they are references/spoofs, or should a new tab be created? Squiddyonwiki ( talk) 02:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)