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Hardly a neutral assessment of the events... What is it missing ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davydoff ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | Although any serious German threat to the Northern Caucasus had ended by the close of 1943, the experiences of the preceding years had taught the Stalinist leadership just how vulnerable Soviet fuel reserves could be: the isthmus that linked northern Iran and European Russia was too strategically vital to leave vulnerable to attack from the south through the Middle East, from the west through Turkey, and above all from within by separatist movements, who could serve as fifth columnists in the event of another war. Initially prepared in late 1943, the ‘Chechevitsa’ — the plan to deport the entire indigenous native population of the Northern Caucasus to Central Asia — was carried out from mid-February until mid-March 1944. | ” |
“ | Although the action was presented to the Soviet public as punishment for alleged Chechen treachery during the second world war, the Chechevitsa was first and foremost a tactical operation directed against armed separatists who still seriously undermined Soviet normalization of the region. | ” |
Alæxis ¿question? 10:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
“ | More then 300 civilians, mostly women and children, were burned alive in village Khaibakhoi and German saboteaurs, and call for armed resistance to the Soviet power" | ” |
It looks like some part of the sentence is missing.
Also, Burds writes in his article that more than 700 people were killed in Khaibakh. Are the figures above from the book by Yakovlev or from somewhere else? Alæxis ¿question? 10:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
-- Niemti ( talk) 18:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Also it was the religious and distinctively Caucasian so-called Mountain Jews, who were living there for centuries (and even participated in Imam Shamil's army, and the very surname of Khasan Israilov is also curious in this aspect, as Israilov is one of European Jewish surnames). But there were other Jews who were Russified and atheistic Soviets, and they participated in the looting and taking over of the houses. -- Niemti ( talk) 18:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
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Pykhalov cited a comprehensive source on Russian military history. Page 238 shows deaths among Soviet nationalities in the military. There were 20,900 deaths among the Mari оut of a population of about 480,000 and about 2,300 among the Chechen and Ingush out of a population of about 500,000. A proper justification was not provided for removing Pykhalov. Sonofagunner ( talk) 18:55, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Sonofagunner, if you want to cite Pykhalov then you should at least add that he's a pro-Stalin activist and revisionist. It's alright to quote Jeffrey Burds, but in the article you are citing Burds also writes: "Obviously, there are serious problems relying on Soviet and Russian sources to reconstruct any aspects of Chechen history. Russian depictions of the Chechen question are without exception heavily laden with a deep-seated antagonism towards the Chechens. (...) This elusive pursuit is further hampered by the fact that various Russian–Chechen or Soviet–Chechen wars over the past 200 years have virtually annihilated Chechen archives, libraries, and other resources, making it impossible to write a history of Chechnya without relying heavily on Russian sources." (page 283 footnote 55). Therefore, at least add that his findings are problematically entirely based on Russian sources, something which Burds admits to himself.
I would also like to bring to your attention that adding three paragraphs on supposed Chechen-Nazi friendship is beyond the scope of what this article should be about. The article on the Armenian Genocide doesn't dedicate three paragraphs on how the Armenians were fifth collumnists for the Russians either. This is for good reasons: dubbing entire nations as fifth collumnists is the type of racism that has led to genocides in the first place. If you want to write more on Chechen-Nazi collaboration you can do that in Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II, Case Blue, History of Chechnya, Chechen–Russian conflict or any other relevant page. Machinarium ( talk) 18:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Tony Wood wrote a book calling for the separation of Chechnya from Russia, which is cited in this article. It is a controversial source that has been met with considerable criticism: "His volume is too thin, and suffers too much from oversimplification and one-sidedness and does not give a fair coverage to the problem. the Russians in it are portrayed as barbarians, the author does not even hint at the bitter debates an dilemmas that the war gave rise to. On the other hand, he paints the Chechens as great martyrs, and not as real people with their virtues and vices." Sonofagunner ( talk) 06:45, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Currently, the article includes the following statements:
“ | Hundreds of thousands[1][2][3][4] of Chechens and Ingushes died or were killed during the round-ups and transportation, and during their early years in exile.
... Estimates for deaths of the Chechens alone (excluding the NKVD figures), range from about 170,000 to 200,000,[1][2][3][4] thus ranging from over a third of the total Chechen population to nearly half being killed in those 4 years alone (rates for other groups for those four years hover around 20%). |
” |
Of these links, [4] leads to a page which says that according to Nekrich, net losses of Chechens constituted 22% and net losses of Ingush constituted 9%, and that it's the percent closer to minimal than maximal.
[1] is a book by Nekrich. At page 138 of Nekrich, in Table 2, it's stated that net losses of Chechens between 1939 and 1959 (after allowing for wartime losses) were 131,000 (22%), and of Ingush 12,000 (9%). At the same page Nekrich writes that "[t]hese figures are closer to minimal than maximal estimates".
[2] is a book by Dunlop. At pp. 70-71 Dunlop cites several investigations. One is Bugai's study based on NKVD's figures which says the death toll of Chechens from 1944 to 1948 constituted 101,036. Then, Dunlop cites investigations based on Soviet census figures, such as that by Tishkov group which concluded: "Indirect [kosvennye] losses of growth from the deportation constituted about 200,000 among the Chechens." In the next paragraph, Dunlop cites two other investigations based on Soviet census (Conquest and Nekrich), which lead to smaller figures.
[3] is a book by Gammer I was unable to obtain by now, so cannot comment on it (yet).
Based on my reading so far, I believe that the data on the death toll of Chechens and Ingush, as currently cited in the above fragments of the article, violates WP:Verifiability. In particular, figures concerning "indirect losses of growth" are presented as "estimates for deaths" or are used as sources for the statement that "hundreds of thousands of Chechens and Ingushes died or were killed".
Hope that helps.
Document hippo ( talk) 03:01, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The statement "Estimates for deaths of the Chechens alone (excluding the NKVD statistic), range from about 170.000 to 200.000, thus ranging from over a third of the total Chechen population to nearly half being killed in those 4 years alone (rates for other groups for those four years hover around 20%)." was introduced to this article in 2010 when an editor copy-pasted info from another Wikipedia article, History of Chechnya, to which the same claim was introduced in 2009, by the same editor.
Document hippo ( talk) 03:32, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Russian demographer Dalkhat Ediev did a large study on casualty figures of the 'punished peoples'. According to him, 30.4% of the Chechen deportees (125,477 people) and 21.1% of the Ingush deportees (20,284 people) perished due to the deportations. The short-term demographic losses are estimated at 51.1% for the Chechens and 47.9% for the Ingush. Ediev provided the following death rates for the other totally deported peoples: 16.3% of the Koreans, 17.9% of the Ingrian Finns, 17.9% of the Russian Germans, 18.3% of the Karachays, 12.1% of the Kalmyks, 19.3% of the Balkars, 17.1% of the Crimean Tatars, and 12.6% of the Meskhetian Turks: D.M. Ediev, Demograficheskie poteri deportirovannykh narodov SSSR (Stavropol 2003) 275, 302. Machinarium ( talk) 13:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Seraphim System ( talk · contribs) 11:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I will review this. Seraphim System ( talk) 11:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Ok let's start with images:
Seraphim System ( talk) 15:00, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Comments on 1a:
For example there is a long paragraph about possible ties between the Chechens and Germans - what does that have to do with the deportations? There are several sentences that argue that the Chechens fought with the Soviets and very few fought with the Axis powers and the next paragraph resumes discussing the deportations. In the middle of that paragraph it says Done. I've moved that paragraph into the next section, "Deportation".--
3E1I5S8B9RF7 (
talk)
08:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Beria complained to Stalin about the "low level of labour discipline" among Chechens, the "prevalence of banditry and terrorism", the "failure of Chechens to join the communist party" and the "confession of a German agent that he found a lot of support among the local Ingush"
but it needs some revision for clarity (per "clear and concise" prose) and clear topic sentences would help with this.
I think for an article like this the review may take some time. I am willing to keep it open for a while, if you want to continue working on it during the review but it is not ready to pass without some more work. Seraphim System ( talk) 12:46, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
To check as many errors as possible in the references and/or notes, I recommend using User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck in conjunction with two other scripts. You can install them as follows:
importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js');
to
Special:MyPage/common.js .importScript('User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck.js');
. Save that page..citation-comment {display: inline !important;} /* show all Citation Style 1 error messages */
.When you've added all those, go to an article to check for various messages in its notes and references. (You may need to clear your browser's cache first). The output of User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck is not foolproof and can be verbose. Use common sense when interpreting output (especially with respect to sorting errors). Reading the explanatory page will help more than a little. The least urgent message of all is probably Missing archive link; archiving weblinks is good practice but lack of archiving will probably not be mentioned in any content review. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Stalin's 1921 quote about the "suffering and extinction" of the Chechens should stay in the article. This source mentions it directly in the context of the deportation.-- 3E1I5S8B9RF7 ( talk) 14:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
It is not photo of deportation. The truck ZIS-150 shown on the photo was started to produce in 1947. The question discussed here and here. Simba16 ( talk) 11:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
I've filed a formal deletion request here. Alaexis ¿question? 13:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
I see both ардахар (ardakhar) and арадахар (aradakhar) used. The article currently gives the former. Can someone clarify this? Bondegezou ( talk) 10:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (February 24, 2018). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 23, 2010, February 23, 2012, February 23, 2018, February 23, 2021, and February 23, 2024. |
![]() | Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Hardly a neutral assessment of the events... What is it missing ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davydoff ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | Although any serious German threat to the Northern Caucasus had ended by the close of 1943, the experiences of the preceding years had taught the Stalinist leadership just how vulnerable Soviet fuel reserves could be: the isthmus that linked northern Iran and European Russia was too strategically vital to leave vulnerable to attack from the south through the Middle East, from the west through Turkey, and above all from within by separatist movements, who could serve as fifth columnists in the event of another war. Initially prepared in late 1943, the ‘Chechevitsa’ — the plan to deport the entire indigenous native population of the Northern Caucasus to Central Asia — was carried out from mid-February until mid-March 1944. | ” |
“ | Although the action was presented to the Soviet public as punishment for alleged Chechen treachery during the second world war, the Chechevitsa was first and foremost a tactical operation directed against armed separatists who still seriously undermined Soviet normalization of the region. | ” |
Alæxis ¿question? 10:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
“ | More then 300 civilians, mostly women and children, were burned alive in village Khaibakhoi and German saboteaurs, and call for armed resistance to the Soviet power" | ” |
It looks like some part of the sentence is missing.
Also, Burds writes in his article that more than 700 people were killed in Khaibakh. Are the figures above from the book by Yakovlev or from somewhere else? Alæxis ¿question? 10:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
-- Niemti ( talk) 18:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Also it was the religious and distinctively Caucasian so-called Mountain Jews, who were living there for centuries (and even participated in Imam Shamil's army, and the very surname of Khasan Israilov is also curious in this aspect, as Israilov is one of European Jewish surnames). But there were other Jews who were Russified and atheistic Soviets, and they participated in the looting and taking over of the houses. -- Niemti ( talk) 18:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
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Pykhalov cited a comprehensive source on Russian military history. Page 238 shows deaths among Soviet nationalities in the military. There were 20,900 deaths among the Mari оut of a population of about 480,000 and about 2,300 among the Chechen and Ingush out of a population of about 500,000. A proper justification was not provided for removing Pykhalov. Sonofagunner ( talk) 18:55, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Sonofagunner, if you want to cite Pykhalov then you should at least add that he's a pro-Stalin activist and revisionist. It's alright to quote Jeffrey Burds, but in the article you are citing Burds also writes: "Obviously, there are serious problems relying on Soviet and Russian sources to reconstruct any aspects of Chechen history. Russian depictions of the Chechen question are without exception heavily laden with a deep-seated antagonism towards the Chechens. (...) This elusive pursuit is further hampered by the fact that various Russian–Chechen or Soviet–Chechen wars over the past 200 years have virtually annihilated Chechen archives, libraries, and other resources, making it impossible to write a history of Chechnya without relying heavily on Russian sources." (page 283 footnote 55). Therefore, at least add that his findings are problematically entirely based on Russian sources, something which Burds admits to himself.
I would also like to bring to your attention that adding three paragraphs on supposed Chechen-Nazi friendship is beyond the scope of what this article should be about. The article on the Armenian Genocide doesn't dedicate three paragraphs on how the Armenians were fifth collumnists for the Russians either. This is for good reasons: dubbing entire nations as fifth collumnists is the type of racism that has led to genocides in the first place. If you want to write more on Chechen-Nazi collaboration you can do that in Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II, Case Blue, History of Chechnya, Chechen–Russian conflict or any other relevant page. Machinarium ( talk) 18:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Tony Wood wrote a book calling for the separation of Chechnya from Russia, which is cited in this article. It is a controversial source that has been met with considerable criticism: "His volume is too thin, and suffers too much from oversimplification and one-sidedness and does not give a fair coverage to the problem. the Russians in it are portrayed as barbarians, the author does not even hint at the bitter debates an dilemmas that the war gave rise to. On the other hand, he paints the Chechens as great martyrs, and not as real people with their virtues and vices." Sonofagunner ( talk) 06:45, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Currently, the article includes the following statements:
“ | Hundreds of thousands[1][2][3][4] of Chechens and Ingushes died or were killed during the round-ups and transportation, and during their early years in exile.
... Estimates for deaths of the Chechens alone (excluding the NKVD figures), range from about 170,000 to 200,000,[1][2][3][4] thus ranging from over a third of the total Chechen population to nearly half being killed in those 4 years alone (rates for other groups for those four years hover around 20%). |
” |
Of these links, [4] leads to a page which says that according to Nekrich, net losses of Chechens constituted 22% and net losses of Ingush constituted 9%, and that it's the percent closer to minimal than maximal.
[1] is a book by Nekrich. At page 138 of Nekrich, in Table 2, it's stated that net losses of Chechens between 1939 and 1959 (after allowing for wartime losses) were 131,000 (22%), and of Ingush 12,000 (9%). At the same page Nekrich writes that "[t]hese figures are closer to minimal than maximal estimates".
[2] is a book by Dunlop. At pp. 70-71 Dunlop cites several investigations. One is Bugai's study based on NKVD's figures which says the death toll of Chechens from 1944 to 1948 constituted 101,036. Then, Dunlop cites investigations based on Soviet census figures, such as that by Tishkov group which concluded: "Indirect [kosvennye] losses of growth from the deportation constituted about 200,000 among the Chechens." In the next paragraph, Dunlop cites two other investigations based on Soviet census (Conquest and Nekrich), which lead to smaller figures.
[3] is a book by Gammer I was unable to obtain by now, so cannot comment on it (yet).
Based on my reading so far, I believe that the data on the death toll of Chechens and Ingush, as currently cited in the above fragments of the article, violates WP:Verifiability. In particular, figures concerning "indirect losses of growth" are presented as "estimates for deaths" or are used as sources for the statement that "hundreds of thousands of Chechens and Ingushes died or were killed".
Hope that helps.
Document hippo ( talk) 03:01, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The statement "Estimates for deaths of the Chechens alone (excluding the NKVD statistic), range from about 170.000 to 200.000, thus ranging from over a third of the total Chechen population to nearly half being killed in those 4 years alone (rates for other groups for those four years hover around 20%)." was introduced to this article in 2010 when an editor copy-pasted info from another Wikipedia article, History of Chechnya, to which the same claim was introduced in 2009, by the same editor.
Document hippo ( talk) 03:32, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Russian demographer Dalkhat Ediev did a large study on casualty figures of the 'punished peoples'. According to him, 30.4% of the Chechen deportees (125,477 people) and 21.1% of the Ingush deportees (20,284 people) perished due to the deportations. The short-term demographic losses are estimated at 51.1% for the Chechens and 47.9% for the Ingush. Ediev provided the following death rates for the other totally deported peoples: 16.3% of the Koreans, 17.9% of the Ingrian Finns, 17.9% of the Russian Germans, 18.3% of the Karachays, 12.1% of the Kalmyks, 19.3% of the Balkars, 17.1% of the Crimean Tatars, and 12.6% of the Meskhetian Turks: D.M. Ediev, Demograficheskie poteri deportirovannykh narodov SSSR (Stavropol 2003) 275, 302. Machinarium ( talk) 13:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Seraphim System ( talk · contribs) 11:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I will review this. Seraphim System ( talk) 11:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Ok let's start with images:
Seraphim System ( talk) 15:00, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Comments on 1a:
For example there is a long paragraph about possible ties between the Chechens and Germans - what does that have to do with the deportations? There are several sentences that argue that the Chechens fought with the Soviets and very few fought with the Axis powers and the next paragraph resumes discussing the deportations. In the middle of that paragraph it says Done. I've moved that paragraph into the next section, "Deportation".--
3E1I5S8B9RF7 (
talk)
08:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Beria complained to Stalin about the "low level of labour discipline" among Chechens, the "prevalence of banditry and terrorism", the "failure of Chechens to join the communist party" and the "confession of a German agent that he found a lot of support among the local Ingush"
but it needs some revision for clarity (per "clear and concise" prose) and clear topic sentences would help with this.
I think for an article like this the review may take some time. I am willing to keep it open for a while, if you want to continue working on it during the review but it is not ready to pass without some more work. Seraphim System ( talk) 12:46, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
To check as many errors as possible in the references and/or notes, I recommend using User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck in conjunction with two other scripts. You can install them as follows:
importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js');
to
Special:MyPage/common.js .importScript('User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck.js');
. Save that page..citation-comment {display: inline !important;} /* show all Citation Style 1 error messages */
.When you've added all those, go to an article to check for various messages in its notes and references. (You may need to clear your browser's cache first). The output of User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck is not foolproof and can be verbose. Use common sense when interpreting output (especially with respect to sorting errors). Reading the explanatory page will help more than a little. The least urgent message of all is probably Missing archive link; archiving weblinks is good practice but lack of archiving will probably not be mentioned in any content review. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Stalin's 1921 quote about the "suffering and extinction" of the Chechens should stay in the article. This source mentions it directly in the context of the deportation.-- 3E1I5S8B9RF7 ( talk) 14:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
It is not photo of deportation. The truck ZIS-150 shown on the photo was started to produce in 1947. The question discussed here and here. Simba16 ( talk) 11:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
I've filed a formal deletion request here. Alaexis ¿question? 13:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
I see both ардахар (ardakhar) and арадахар (aradakhar) used. The article currently gives the former. Can someone clarify this? Bondegezou ( talk) 10:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)