This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dennis Lillee article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Still a huge hit with the fans, Lillee continued his international career until famously retiring along with Greg Chappell and Rod Marsh after the Sydney Test match against Pakistan in January 1984; many consider this 'triple retirement' had an adverse impact on the Australian national team as their performances soon slumped."
Whilest all 3 did retire from TEST cricket after that match I'm pretty sure Marsh continued on play out the World Series Cup of that Summer whereas Chappell and Lillee did not.
I think something should be mentioned in his role at the
MRF (Madras Rubber Factory) sponsored School of Pace Academy in Chennai (formerly Madras).
He was made director of the school, founded in 1987, which was launched to help find good young fast bowlers in India
A couple of links:
http://www.chennaibest.com/cityresources/Sports_and_Recreation/sportsacademies01.asp
http://www.iloveindia.com/sports/bodies/mrf-pace-foundation.html
Fast bowlers who I think have trained at the school:
Javagal Srinath,
Venkatesh Prasad,
Ajit Agarkar (?),
Ashish Nehra(?),
Zaheer Khan(?),
Irfan Pathan,
Shanthakumaran Sreesanth,
Munaf Patel(?),
Rudra Pratap Singh(?)
Stonysleep
14:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Image:DKLillee.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
No mention of Lillee's one and only caught and bowled in test cricket - the victim was Geoffrey Boycott. Having induced Boycott to hook with the previous ball ( a bouncer), Lillee repeated it - and Boycott skied it. Yelling "Mine!" at the top of his voice, Lillee ran to a short mid wicket position and delightedly took the catch. (This happened at Trent Bridge - but I am open to correction on the point.)
I think this deserves a mention. 81.102.15.200 ( talk) 12:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Carl Rackemann was NOT the Man of the Match in the second Test against Pakistan in 83/84 - that honour went to Geoff Lawson. Rackemann was Man of the Match for the FIRST Test. It also isn't clear, from what I can remember, that Lillee was going to be dropped for the Third. Tom Hogan came into the side as Rackemann's replacement - a left arm orthodox spinner! There would certainly have been a lot of public resistance to dropping a living legend like Lillee at that stage, not least from PBL who had disproportionate influence over the game at the time and who would have seen the Lillee name as a draw card. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.51 ( talk) 05:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Lillee was involved in more controversies than have been mentioned. During his comeback to First Class Cricket, he (and his mate Botham) destroyed an Honour Board in the small ground they were playing at in Tasmania. There is also the apparent undermining of Kim Hughes's authority when the latter was Captain of Australia, most notably the very public "disagreement" during a one day match in 1983. Much information on this can be drawn from the recent book "Golden Boy". When he was the stand in Captain of WA in his last season, he had a very public spat with the umpires over extra drinks for the team. Certainly the first two should rate a mention, particularly since the attitude of Lillee (and Marsh and the Chappell brothers) helped to undermine Kim Hughes as a Captain, his self confidence and perhaps ultimately his batting form. I'm a big fan of DK, but there is no walking away from this - although kicking Javed is the most notorious incident Lillee was involved in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.51 ( talk) 05:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed this section which needs to be be written to comply with WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE. The link was dead (though I see an updated version is available), the quote was selective, and one source has been used for an incident that was widely written about and needs more balance for e.g what the media reaction). Flat Out let's discuss it 01:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dennis Lillee. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
This is in response to an IP user who's used multiple IP addresses.
The edits you're trying to put in place have a range of issues associated with them:
What does this boil down to? Hell, Lillee was good. Not as fast as some, not as skilled as others, but a fine bowler and one of the best I've seen (at times). And the article says that already. The lead could use a little work to be cleverer, sure, but that's not what you're doing here really I'm afraid. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 12:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing First of all the Cricket County article is by a renowned cricket historian so that hardly makes it a POV issue infact far from it..
Malcolm Marshall and Wasim Akram article mentioned that they are one of best ever so why not in case of Dennis Lillee ?
At last you claimed that he was not as fast as many ?? Not sure about that pre injury he was as fast as anyone Garry Sobbers said that he was fastest he ever saw. Even after those stress fractures he was still like greased lightning slower than Jeff Thomson but quicker than anyone else in the game. He clocked 155 kmph rocket in 1977 way after his stress fractures..
In skills well you must be ill-informed if you don't rate him in his skills
Overall there is literally no one that can deny his stature as an all-time great paceman and arguably the finest. 2409:4051:18B:75A3:38AC:5D71:90:3D3B ( talk) 15:32, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
I am pinging @ Eagleash, Spike 'em, and Kirubar: Is there any issue in refering to Dennis as one of greatest ever fast bowlers in lead as it is used for Akram, Marshall and other great pacemans ?? 2409:4051:18B:75A3:38AC:5D71:90:3D3B ( talk) 15:42, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer rated as the "outstanding fast bowler of his generation".(ref with the BBC article) Lillee was known for his fiery temperament and 'never-say-die' attitude(can we find a direct ref for this?) and is generally considered one of the most "complete" fast bowlers of the 20th century.(use the cricinfo reference)
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer who is widely regarded as one of the greatest fast bowler of cricket history.[1][2][3][4] In 2000, Dennis was voted as sixth greatest cricketer of the 20th century along with Frank Worrell by a 100 member panel of experts and was first fast bowler in the list.[5]This has a number of issues:
one of the greatest fast bowler of cricket historydoesn't work grammatically. I hinted at this above;
Dennis was voted as sixth greatest cricketer of the 20th century along with Frank Worrell by a 100 member panel of experts and was first fast bowler in the listis grammatically full of issues. It's interesting that you called me a "typical Pom" in this edit summary; are you aware that we can approximately geolocate IP addresses?;
lots of articles claim greatness. In most cases that's debatable at best (I mean, Bradman, sure); it's unfortunate that far too many articles use phrases such as that in my view
What can we make of this ? So apart from Bradman no other great batters ever played ?? Master Blaster Viv Richards ?? Perhaps the finest of all post war batters.. Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Greg Chappell, Javed Miandad are all in top echelon of great players. Only you can debate or belite their greatness infact it was Bradman who is a bit overrated smashing helpless Poms everyday.
So, here is my suggestion for the same:-
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer who is regarded as one of the greatest fast bowlers in the history of cricket
OR
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer who is widely regarded as one of the greatest fast bowlers of all time.
As simple as this articles of other great fast bowlers like Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Dale Steyn, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Curtly Ambrose simply acknoweldge them as ATG fast bowlers.
About Wisden assesement of him can be discussed a bit later. 2409:4051:18B:75A3:588F:7030:2690:3802 ( talk) 10:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing and Spike 'em: Ok, then Dennis was not an all time great ?? Bring out a source that say so that he was not a great bowler ??
You both sounds like helpless Poms whom he and Thommo made a mess of and in response Poms cried about too many bouncers but they enjoy same when they found Jofra Archer. 2409:4051:6:51E4:4A19:4D7C:E435:67F2 ( talk) 07:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Withdrawing from communication with a tendentious or quarrelsome editor does not give that editor consent to do what they like. Similarly, in the presence of a revert, there is neither silence nor consensus.Spike 'em ( talk) 08:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing I don't know that you are making much sense here; a lot of articles use greatness as a yardstick for cricketers, so what ?? If there is universal consensus among the cricket fratinity among certain individuals as one of finest or greatest then no doubt it should be mentioned. Apart from great figures DK was kind of trendsetter for future fast bowlers by coming of from severe back injuries who no one knew back then. We aren't using greatness here for someone like Peter Siddle or even Merv Hughes.
This quote is as meaningless as is India's current series loss to perhaps worst ever RSA team I know in 45 years. What is consensus among greats for judges for Dennis ? Simply one of the greatest ever or some says the greatest those some are Viv Richards, Richie Benaud, Ian Chappell, Ian Botham, Sunil Gavaskar, Tony Greig and Imran Khan or Javed Miandad so I will rather go with them instead of you two who are simply giving silly reasons of why he wasn't one of best ever. 2409:4051:2005:1066:50B2:2A8F:E4FF:CA8A ( talk) 07:51, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em I am far from quarelsome editor but it's you guys who are making a issue out of it. Earlier rant about Poms was bit over the top but it's a fact they made Lillee and Thommo or later West Indian quicks literally as mobs introduced bouncer rule and made the game sissy. But when they get someone like Archer they love the same brutness. #On On. 2409:4051:2005:1066:50B2:2A8F:E4FF:CA8A ( talk) 07:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing: Well you are making it into a unnecessary argument. Universal consensus so called means how a player is rated by champions who were around or by experts. I will doubt anyone ever claimed Lillee was not an all-time great. A guy that Roberts and co. said best ever or someone like Viv greatest ever rates him as best or Sobbers then we hardly can doubt it. He is Godfather of modern fast bowling. Bradman no doubt avg 100 but how would have he fared against Clive Llyod's team or Imran and Wasim or later Wasim and Waqar ?? Sure he wouldn't have done much better than Viv or Lara or Sachin. The cricket was hardly competitive back in days and more then it most teams apart from Aussie and Poms were awful. There is no mention about his famous tussles with Viv here either. Ok, answer quickly was DK not great or in same echelon of Macko Marshall, Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Roberts, Mickey Holding, Steyn ?? 2409:4051:2005:1066:1B5C:9826:C70:69AF ( talk) 17:08, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing Well mate you are deliberately twisting statements to keep this rather tedious argument going on. Further not only his peers all cricket historians, great bowlers rated him as one of the best ever or simply the best. Godfather of modern day fast bowling. Obviously you also got judged by your peers too who rate him as finest ever. An all rounder like Imran Khan said he became a fast bowler after seeing the great man bowl.
I seriously doubt anyone in right sense of mind can dispute greatness of Lillee as an All-time great paceman. Well you even said Viv was not great so your knowledge being hearsay is pretty evident. 2409:4051:2E14:2C11:E8A0:CC92:BA54:86EF ( talk) 15:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing You are unfortunately not many in their right senses can deny Lillee or Viv as among the finest our game has seen. A guy whom even greatest pace attack admired most hardly needs a certificate from others; also those who have serious issues with him like Miandad and Gavaskad are united in rating him finest fast bowler that's ever lived. 2409:4051:2E14:2C11:E8A0:CC92:BA54:86EF ( talk) 16:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em Well; calling or describing players like Lillee, Viv, Greg Chappell, Warne, Sunny, Tendulkar, Marshall, Akram, Imran, Lara, Greenidge, Sobbers as among the finest is far infact a world away from hyperbole.
I am not saying to describe Lillee as greatest ever in the article; I agree this can always be debated because there were guys like Malcolm Marshall, Wasim Akram who were in same echelon as of Dennis but to describe him among the finest ever is hardly a hyperbole or even recentism.
This quote is basless almost saying that Lara was a magician batter of his era does that prevent him from being an all-time great ?? 2409:4051:18C:6366:B81B:D93D:9915:BAE4 ( talk) 04:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
When asked what he thought of Brian Lara, the West Indian who had relieved him of his record Test score, Sir Garfield Sobers had this to say: "The word great is used too often. You can't call Don Bradman great and David Gower great too. If Gower was great you have to invent a different word for Bradman, who was an all-time great, like Everton Weekes." ... Sobers is right: the word "great" is not used discerningly enoughHe has many other interesting things to say fwiw (on the subject of greatness versus genius, for example) - it seems to be available via the Wikipedia library these days.
@ Spike 'em: Well bit of the topic but Gordon wasn't as celebrated because of Viv's aura surround him; Mickey Holding once said that Only Viv Richards stood between Greenidge and all time greatness In terms of away wins Gordon was most successful of that era; he avg 54 in away wins even better than Viv who too avg 52. Greg was indeed a great player: Viv was rated as fifth greatest cricketer of twentieth century and only batsman of post war era to be in that list. In ESPN Legends of cricket list he was third behind Bradman and Sobbers. If taking into account most dominant pomp of all batters that's lived (4 year span, 3000 runs and 10+ tons) Viv is second to only Bradman. 2409:4051:18C:6366:14F0:7DE3:77DC:74B5 ( talk) 15:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing Well John himself said that If I am picking pacemans in my best XI..The first one to make the cut after SF Barness will be Dennis Lillee, the man simply rewrite the fast bowling coach manual; this was said by him during interview with Michael Atherton, Allan Lee and Christopher Martin-Jenkins.
This was their XI Shane Warne capt, Barry Richards, Sunil Gavaskar, Don Bradman, Viv Richards, Garry Sobers, Ian Botham, Alan Knott, Malcolm Marshall, Dennis Lillee, Muttiah Muralitharan.
This happened in 2001 when Lara and Tendulkar were still around as active players. You simply won't found anyone saying Lillee as not one of the greatest. 2409:4051:18C:6366:14F0:7DE3:77DC:74B5 ( talk) 16:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing: Mentioning him as one of the greats backed up by good quality sources doesn't breach any NPOV case. @ Spike 'em: The source doesn't mention him as best of his era; this can be debatble as Andy Roberts too was sublime infact they both goes head to head for best tittle. There are sources which mentions him as an all-time great. You both failed to give sources which states Lillee was not an all-time great. 2409:4051:39B:C2E9:1506:A722:18A5:A5C1 ( talk) 13:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em Well atleast don't poke in if your knowledge of the game is that sub standard. Comparing Boland case to Dennis Lillee ?? I mean really ? This is getting out of laughter zone aa well; Yes Pomies can even claim that Zak Crawley is a better player than Viv Richards.
Anyway; mocking Andy Roberts now ? Do you know who he was ?? He was actually the original leader of the pack; a men from whom Mickey Holding and later Marshall learnt a lot from; Ask Gavaskar, Two Chappel's or Pakistan batters who he was they will give an better idea. When Cliv Llyod was asked to choose between his great bowlers he mentioned a close run between Andy Roberts and Malcolm Marshall despite having Joel Garner, Michael Holding, Collin Croft and even Sylvester Clarke. Ok, Dennis was not an all-time great but how all these fools who played with him or saw the game and some remonwed cricket scholars manage to call him probably the finest ?? I fail to get how spike can manage to call Viv, Lillee as ordinary cricketer one ranked fifth and other sixth in Wisden list. Surprising isn't it ?? 2409:4051:39B:C2E9:DDDB:83B2:E26C:BD5D ( talk) 02:41, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Withdrawing from communication with a tendentious or quarrelsome editor does not give that editor consent to do what they like.Spike 'em ( talk) 03:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em To hell with personal attacks it really gets annoying when someone are giving wierd logics for their claim without any source; It's actually both of you who are not giving any subtle reason as why Lillee isn't one of the greatest ever. BST quote John Woodcock and pop in David Gower who isn't really in same class as Viv, SOBBERS or Tendulkar kind of batters. Even John mentioned Lillee as first pick of all great pacemans he saw. If every player that played with or against him rates him finest; commentator or anaylyst like Richie Benaud, Bill Lawry, Jim Laker, Fred Truemen and knowledgable cricket scholars rate him among the greatest ever then there is no reason to not mention it and instead go with this basless quote. You can't simply deny and move on give logical reasons why Lillee isn't a great Fast bowler. 2409:4051:4E8D:FFF8:F97:C794:9C3A:E6CA ( talk) 02:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing No one in history have seen everyone play but what circket scholars and knowledge person knows through stats and impact on game we judge greatness of players and players like Viv, Lara, DK, Macko fall in top echelon.
You used Woodcock as a scape answer of how he said great is a term toosed up way too often. I don't think any knowledge or sane human will argue that Dennis was not an great or this term is gifted to him. 2409:4051:315:F964:91B5:BB7F:B9CA:4C7B ( talk) 15:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing This lead is dubious; doesn't mean much in calling someone outstanding or extraordinary bowlers of that era..bit like Warne as a magician or Viv as Smokin Joe... I don't know how bowler of his class can't be described as one of the greatest ever when all cricket historian, his peers and experts like Benaud, Tony Cozier said so. 2409:4051:389:D437:40BD:2596:EBE0:ECCF ( talk) 15:49, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing: Well it's rather wierd that a random quote taken from a profile is powerful than these cricketing piece written by a renowned cricket historian 2409:4051:4E89:5010:77E9:EE33:EFFC:9DF7 ( talk) 07:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
One of WP:DR or WP:DTS needs to happen here. Spike 'em ( talk) 09:57, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing What a wierd way to justify these source. Who rated him as such ?? Any reliable author ?? WP:OR is best way to finish it. 2409:4051:2E07:83CD:D451:3F05:335B:8A3E ( talk) 16:01, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Here is one more source from ESPN Cricinfo [1] which call him perfect fast bowler so describe him as perfect fast bowler according to it ? 2409:4051:2E07:83CD:D451:3F05:335B:8A3E ( talk) 16:20, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing So now we should go with this new quote that describes DK as perfect fast bowler of his generation; since it is from Cricinfo it won't have any issue.
Fact is this shows how naive you have been in cherry picking some random quotes instead of going with well established consensus among cricket fratinity that DK was among the greatest ever. 2409:4051:4E1A:CA:BF4:D51:EBD8:ACDA ( talk) 15:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dennis Lillee article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Still a huge hit with the fans, Lillee continued his international career until famously retiring along with Greg Chappell and Rod Marsh after the Sydney Test match against Pakistan in January 1984; many consider this 'triple retirement' had an adverse impact on the Australian national team as their performances soon slumped."
Whilest all 3 did retire from TEST cricket after that match I'm pretty sure Marsh continued on play out the World Series Cup of that Summer whereas Chappell and Lillee did not.
I think something should be mentioned in his role at the
MRF (Madras Rubber Factory) sponsored School of Pace Academy in Chennai (formerly Madras).
He was made director of the school, founded in 1987, which was launched to help find good young fast bowlers in India
A couple of links:
http://www.chennaibest.com/cityresources/Sports_and_Recreation/sportsacademies01.asp
http://www.iloveindia.com/sports/bodies/mrf-pace-foundation.html
Fast bowlers who I think have trained at the school:
Javagal Srinath,
Venkatesh Prasad,
Ajit Agarkar (?),
Ashish Nehra(?),
Zaheer Khan(?),
Irfan Pathan,
Shanthakumaran Sreesanth,
Munaf Patel(?),
Rudra Pratap Singh(?)
Stonysleep
14:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Image:DKLillee.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
No mention of Lillee's one and only caught and bowled in test cricket - the victim was Geoffrey Boycott. Having induced Boycott to hook with the previous ball ( a bouncer), Lillee repeated it - and Boycott skied it. Yelling "Mine!" at the top of his voice, Lillee ran to a short mid wicket position and delightedly took the catch. (This happened at Trent Bridge - but I am open to correction on the point.)
I think this deserves a mention. 81.102.15.200 ( talk) 12:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Carl Rackemann was NOT the Man of the Match in the second Test against Pakistan in 83/84 - that honour went to Geoff Lawson. Rackemann was Man of the Match for the FIRST Test. It also isn't clear, from what I can remember, that Lillee was going to be dropped for the Third. Tom Hogan came into the side as Rackemann's replacement - a left arm orthodox spinner! There would certainly have been a lot of public resistance to dropping a living legend like Lillee at that stage, not least from PBL who had disproportionate influence over the game at the time and who would have seen the Lillee name as a draw card. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.51 ( talk) 05:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Lillee was involved in more controversies than have been mentioned. During his comeback to First Class Cricket, he (and his mate Botham) destroyed an Honour Board in the small ground they were playing at in Tasmania. There is also the apparent undermining of Kim Hughes's authority when the latter was Captain of Australia, most notably the very public "disagreement" during a one day match in 1983. Much information on this can be drawn from the recent book "Golden Boy". When he was the stand in Captain of WA in his last season, he had a very public spat with the umpires over extra drinks for the team. Certainly the first two should rate a mention, particularly since the attitude of Lillee (and Marsh and the Chappell brothers) helped to undermine Kim Hughes as a Captain, his self confidence and perhaps ultimately his batting form. I'm a big fan of DK, but there is no walking away from this - although kicking Javed is the most notorious incident Lillee was involved in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.51 ( talk) 05:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed this section which needs to be be written to comply with WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE. The link was dead (though I see an updated version is available), the quote was selective, and one source has been used for an incident that was widely written about and needs more balance for e.g what the media reaction). Flat Out let's discuss it 01:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dennis Lillee. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
This is in response to an IP user who's used multiple IP addresses.
The edits you're trying to put in place have a range of issues associated with them:
What does this boil down to? Hell, Lillee was good. Not as fast as some, not as skilled as others, but a fine bowler and one of the best I've seen (at times). And the article says that already. The lead could use a little work to be cleverer, sure, but that's not what you're doing here really I'm afraid. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 12:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing First of all the Cricket County article is by a renowned cricket historian so that hardly makes it a POV issue infact far from it..
Malcolm Marshall and Wasim Akram article mentioned that they are one of best ever so why not in case of Dennis Lillee ?
At last you claimed that he was not as fast as many ?? Not sure about that pre injury he was as fast as anyone Garry Sobbers said that he was fastest he ever saw. Even after those stress fractures he was still like greased lightning slower than Jeff Thomson but quicker than anyone else in the game. He clocked 155 kmph rocket in 1977 way after his stress fractures..
In skills well you must be ill-informed if you don't rate him in his skills
Overall there is literally no one that can deny his stature as an all-time great paceman and arguably the finest. 2409:4051:18B:75A3:38AC:5D71:90:3D3B ( talk) 15:32, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
I am pinging @ Eagleash, Spike 'em, and Kirubar: Is there any issue in refering to Dennis as one of greatest ever fast bowlers in lead as it is used for Akram, Marshall and other great pacemans ?? 2409:4051:18B:75A3:38AC:5D71:90:3D3B ( talk) 15:42, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer rated as the "outstanding fast bowler of his generation".(ref with the BBC article) Lillee was known for his fiery temperament and 'never-say-die' attitude(can we find a direct ref for this?) and is generally considered one of the most "complete" fast bowlers of the 20th century.(use the cricinfo reference)
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer who is widely regarded as one of the greatest fast bowler of cricket history.[1][2][3][4] In 2000, Dennis was voted as sixth greatest cricketer of the 20th century along with Frank Worrell by a 100 member panel of experts and was first fast bowler in the list.[5]This has a number of issues:
one of the greatest fast bowler of cricket historydoesn't work grammatically. I hinted at this above;
Dennis was voted as sixth greatest cricketer of the 20th century along with Frank Worrell by a 100 member panel of experts and was first fast bowler in the listis grammatically full of issues. It's interesting that you called me a "typical Pom" in this edit summary; are you aware that we can approximately geolocate IP addresses?;
lots of articles claim greatness. In most cases that's debatable at best (I mean, Bradman, sure); it's unfortunate that far too many articles use phrases such as that in my view
What can we make of this ? So apart from Bradman no other great batters ever played ?? Master Blaster Viv Richards ?? Perhaps the finest of all post war batters.. Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Greg Chappell, Javed Miandad are all in top echelon of great players. Only you can debate or belite their greatness infact it was Bradman who is a bit overrated smashing helpless Poms everyday.
So, here is my suggestion for the same:-
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer who is regarded as one of the greatest fast bowlers in the history of cricket
OR
Dennis Keith Lillee, AM, MBE (born 18 July 1949) is a former Australian cricketer who is widely regarded as one of the greatest fast bowlers of all time.
As simple as this articles of other great fast bowlers like Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Dale Steyn, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Curtly Ambrose simply acknoweldge them as ATG fast bowlers.
About Wisden assesement of him can be discussed a bit later. 2409:4051:18B:75A3:588F:7030:2690:3802 ( talk) 10:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing and Spike 'em: Ok, then Dennis was not an all time great ?? Bring out a source that say so that he was not a great bowler ??
You both sounds like helpless Poms whom he and Thommo made a mess of and in response Poms cried about too many bouncers but they enjoy same when they found Jofra Archer. 2409:4051:6:51E4:4A19:4D7C:E435:67F2 ( talk) 07:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Withdrawing from communication with a tendentious or quarrelsome editor does not give that editor consent to do what they like. Similarly, in the presence of a revert, there is neither silence nor consensus.Spike 'em ( talk) 08:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing I don't know that you are making much sense here; a lot of articles use greatness as a yardstick for cricketers, so what ?? If there is universal consensus among the cricket fratinity among certain individuals as one of finest or greatest then no doubt it should be mentioned. Apart from great figures DK was kind of trendsetter for future fast bowlers by coming of from severe back injuries who no one knew back then. We aren't using greatness here for someone like Peter Siddle or even Merv Hughes.
This quote is as meaningless as is India's current series loss to perhaps worst ever RSA team I know in 45 years. What is consensus among greats for judges for Dennis ? Simply one of the greatest ever or some says the greatest those some are Viv Richards, Richie Benaud, Ian Chappell, Ian Botham, Sunil Gavaskar, Tony Greig and Imran Khan or Javed Miandad so I will rather go with them instead of you two who are simply giving silly reasons of why he wasn't one of best ever. 2409:4051:2005:1066:50B2:2A8F:E4FF:CA8A ( talk) 07:51, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em I am far from quarelsome editor but it's you guys who are making a issue out of it. Earlier rant about Poms was bit over the top but it's a fact they made Lillee and Thommo or later West Indian quicks literally as mobs introduced bouncer rule and made the game sissy. But when they get someone like Archer they love the same brutness. #On On. 2409:4051:2005:1066:50B2:2A8F:E4FF:CA8A ( talk) 07:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing: Well you are making it into a unnecessary argument. Universal consensus so called means how a player is rated by champions who were around or by experts. I will doubt anyone ever claimed Lillee was not an all-time great. A guy that Roberts and co. said best ever or someone like Viv greatest ever rates him as best or Sobbers then we hardly can doubt it. He is Godfather of modern fast bowling. Bradman no doubt avg 100 but how would have he fared against Clive Llyod's team or Imran and Wasim or later Wasim and Waqar ?? Sure he wouldn't have done much better than Viv or Lara or Sachin. The cricket was hardly competitive back in days and more then it most teams apart from Aussie and Poms were awful. There is no mention about his famous tussles with Viv here either. Ok, answer quickly was DK not great or in same echelon of Macko Marshall, Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Roberts, Mickey Holding, Steyn ?? 2409:4051:2005:1066:1B5C:9826:C70:69AF ( talk) 17:08, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing Well mate you are deliberately twisting statements to keep this rather tedious argument going on. Further not only his peers all cricket historians, great bowlers rated him as one of the best ever or simply the best. Godfather of modern day fast bowling. Obviously you also got judged by your peers too who rate him as finest ever. An all rounder like Imran Khan said he became a fast bowler after seeing the great man bowl.
I seriously doubt anyone in right sense of mind can dispute greatness of Lillee as an All-time great paceman. Well you even said Viv was not great so your knowledge being hearsay is pretty evident. 2409:4051:2E14:2C11:E8A0:CC92:BA54:86EF ( talk) 15:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing You are unfortunately not many in their right senses can deny Lillee or Viv as among the finest our game has seen. A guy whom even greatest pace attack admired most hardly needs a certificate from others; also those who have serious issues with him like Miandad and Gavaskad are united in rating him finest fast bowler that's ever lived. 2409:4051:2E14:2C11:E8A0:CC92:BA54:86EF ( talk) 16:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em Well; calling or describing players like Lillee, Viv, Greg Chappell, Warne, Sunny, Tendulkar, Marshall, Akram, Imran, Lara, Greenidge, Sobbers as among the finest is far infact a world away from hyperbole.
I am not saying to describe Lillee as greatest ever in the article; I agree this can always be debated because there were guys like Malcolm Marshall, Wasim Akram who were in same echelon as of Dennis but to describe him among the finest ever is hardly a hyperbole or even recentism.
This quote is basless almost saying that Lara was a magician batter of his era does that prevent him from being an all-time great ?? 2409:4051:18C:6366:B81B:D93D:9915:BAE4 ( talk) 04:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
When asked what he thought of Brian Lara, the West Indian who had relieved him of his record Test score, Sir Garfield Sobers had this to say: "The word great is used too often. You can't call Don Bradman great and David Gower great too. If Gower was great you have to invent a different word for Bradman, who was an all-time great, like Everton Weekes." ... Sobers is right: the word "great" is not used discerningly enoughHe has many other interesting things to say fwiw (on the subject of greatness versus genius, for example) - it seems to be available via the Wikipedia library these days.
@ Spike 'em: Well bit of the topic but Gordon wasn't as celebrated because of Viv's aura surround him; Mickey Holding once said that Only Viv Richards stood between Greenidge and all time greatness In terms of away wins Gordon was most successful of that era; he avg 54 in away wins even better than Viv who too avg 52. Greg was indeed a great player: Viv was rated as fifth greatest cricketer of twentieth century and only batsman of post war era to be in that list. In ESPN Legends of cricket list he was third behind Bradman and Sobbers. If taking into account most dominant pomp of all batters that's lived (4 year span, 3000 runs and 10+ tons) Viv is second to only Bradman. 2409:4051:18C:6366:14F0:7DE3:77DC:74B5 ( talk) 15:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing Well John himself said that If I am picking pacemans in my best XI..The first one to make the cut after SF Barness will be Dennis Lillee, the man simply rewrite the fast bowling coach manual; this was said by him during interview with Michael Atherton, Allan Lee and Christopher Martin-Jenkins.
This was their XI Shane Warne capt, Barry Richards, Sunil Gavaskar, Don Bradman, Viv Richards, Garry Sobers, Ian Botham, Alan Knott, Malcolm Marshall, Dennis Lillee, Muttiah Muralitharan.
This happened in 2001 when Lara and Tendulkar were still around as active players. You simply won't found anyone saying Lillee as not one of the greatest. 2409:4051:18C:6366:14F0:7DE3:77DC:74B5 ( talk) 16:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing: Mentioning him as one of the greats backed up by good quality sources doesn't breach any NPOV case. @ Spike 'em: The source doesn't mention him as best of his era; this can be debatble as Andy Roberts too was sublime infact they both goes head to head for best tittle. There are sources which mentions him as an all-time great. You both failed to give sources which states Lillee was not an all-time great. 2409:4051:39B:C2E9:1506:A722:18A5:A5C1 ( talk) 13:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em Well atleast don't poke in if your knowledge of the game is that sub standard. Comparing Boland case to Dennis Lillee ?? I mean really ? This is getting out of laughter zone aa well; Yes Pomies can even claim that Zak Crawley is a better player than Viv Richards.
Anyway; mocking Andy Roberts now ? Do you know who he was ?? He was actually the original leader of the pack; a men from whom Mickey Holding and later Marshall learnt a lot from; Ask Gavaskar, Two Chappel's or Pakistan batters who he was they will give an better idea. When Cliv Llyod was asked to choose between his great bowlers he mentioned a close run between Andy Roberts and Malcolm Marshall despite having Joel Garner, Michael Holding, Collin Croft and even Sylvester Clarke. Ok, Dennis was not an all-time great but how all these fools who played with him or saw the game and some remonwed cricket scholars manage to call him probably the finest ?? I fail to get how spike can manage to call Viv, Lillee as ordinary cricketer one ranked fifth and other sixth in Wisden list. Surprising isn't it ?? 2409:4051:39B:C2E9:DDDB:83B2:E26C:BD5D ( talk) 02:41, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Withdrawing from communication with a tendentious or quarrelsome editor does not give that editor consent to do what they like.Spike 'em ( talk) 03:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Spike 'em To hell with personal attacks it really gets annoying when someone are giving wierd logics for their claim without any source; It's actually both of you who are not giving any subtle reason as why Lillee isn't one of the greatest ever. BST quote John Woodcock and pop in David Gower who isn't really in same class as Viv, SOBBERS or Tendulkar kind of batters. Even John mentioned Lillee as first pick of all great pacemans he saw. If every player that played with or against him rates him finest; commentator or anaylyst like Richie Benaud, Bill Lawry, Jim Laker, Fred Truemen and knowledgable cricket scholars rate him among the greatest ever then there is no reason to not mention it and instead go with this basless quote. You can't simply deny and move on give logical reasons why Lillee isn't a great Fast bowler. 2409:4051:4E8D:FFF8:F97:C794:9C3A:E6CA ( talk) 02:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing No one in history have seen everyone play but what circket scholars and knowledge person knows through stats and impact on game we judge greatness of players and players like Viv, Lara, DK, Macko fall in top echelon.
You used Woodcock as a scape answer of how he said great is a term toosed up way too often. I don't think any knowledge or sane human will argue that Dennis was not an great or this term is gifted to him. 2409:4051:315:F964:91B5:BB7F:B9CA:4C7B ( talk) 15:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing This lead is dubious; doesn't mean much in calling someone outstanding or extraordinary bowlers of that era..bit like Warne as a magician or Viv as Smokin Joe... I don't know how bowler of his class can't be described as one of the greatest ever when all cricket historian, his peers and experts like Benaud, Tony Cozier said so. 2409:4051:389:D437:40BD:2596:EBE0:ECCF ( talk) 15:49, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Blue Square Thing: Well it's rather wierd that a random quote taken from a profile is powerful than these cricketing piece written by a renowned cricket historian 2409:4051:4E89:5010:77E9:EE33:EFFC:9DF7 ( talk) 07:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
One of WP:DR or WP:DTS needs to happen here. Spike 'em ( talk) 09:57, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing What a wierd way to justify these source. Who rated him as such ?? Any reliable author ?? WP:OR is best way to finish it. 2409:4051:2E07:83CD:D451:3F05:335B:8A3E ( talk) 16:01, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Here is one more source from ESPN Cricinfo [1] which call him perfect fast bowler so describe him as perfect fast bowler according to it ? 2409:4051:2E07:83CD:D451:3F05:335B:8A3E ( talk) 16:20, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Blue Square Thing So now we should go with this new quote that describes DK as perfect fast bowler of his generation; since it is from Cricinfo it won't have any issue.
Fact is this shows how naive you have been in cherry picking some random quotes instead of going with well established consensus among cricket fratinity that DK was among the greatest ever. 2409:4051:4E1A:CA:BF4:D51:EBD8:ACDA ( talk) 15:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
References