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I am hesitant to update this page, but there are some grammatical issues that make reading it difficult, a source for the void thing would be awesome as I am currently in a course which looks at primary sources of astronomical thought. I will add a milky way quotation.. --[user:smkatz|Sam]
-- I agree that there are pretty severe grammar problems. I'd add that there is a lot of uncited material more related to the philosophy of science than specifically to Democritus. This article needs a lot of work. 67.9.139.107 ( talk) 23:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
--Would it just be a matter of translating the Dutch page, or is there an existing English document that just needs proofing? --[user:epsas|Epsas]
-- I've made a few changes in sentence structure (mostly dealing with tense or plurality) and I've made an approximation of Democritus's Greek spelling. If anyone can confirm or correct my estimation, I would appreciate it. Comrade42 04:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I've found a source that confirms my approximation: http://www.geocities.com/lucretius5978/biography/democritus.html So it seems that it isn't necessary to go out of the way to check up on my spelling. Comrade42 04:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
-- What is his "distant star theory?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Populer208 ( talk • contribs) 14:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
-- In the section called "Life", paragraph 3, the statement, to wit: "He may have been acquainted with Socrates, but Plato does not mention him..." directly contradicts the statement made in the introduction's second paragraph, to wit: "Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.[6]". So, which is it? I'm not expert enough to correct the contradiction, but know one when I see one. 75.80.37.209 ( talk) 19:37, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
An anon removed mention of Osthanes from this article. The only references I could find in a quick search to a relationship between the two is in the works of Henry Cornelius Agrippa, who (though fascinating) is not exactly an encyclopedic source. Does anyone have anything else on this relationship? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 14:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
"Democritus is said to have had a happy disposition, and is sometimes referred to as the "laughing philosopher," as opposed to Heraclitus, who is known as the "weeping philosopher." In the Divine Comedy Dante sees the shade of Heraclitus in Limbo with those of other classical philosophers."
Is it relevant to an article on Democritus that Heraclitus is in Limbo in Dante's Divine Comedy? I shamefully must admit that I have not read Dante's Divine Comedy. Is Democritus mentioned there as well? If he is, I propose we amend the text to state that he sees the shade of Democritus. If not, I propose that this last bit be moved to Heraclitus' article if it is not present there already.
Democritus is seen in Dante's Limbo. He is the first philosopher mentioned after Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates (Aristotle is referred to indirectly as "the Master of those who know"). 72.191.161.213 ( talk) 19:15, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
on the Leucippus page it says that the only surviving writing is "Nothing occurs at random, but everything occurs for a reason and by necessity." On this page it says that Democritus said this.
wwww
Does anyone know Democritus's first name? (or can even give a guess?) In all the sources I have looked in, I have not found any refrence to him even having a first name. -- 69.251.94.183 02:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Democritus IS his first name. All the ancient philosophers are called by their first name.
Hi! I'm helping in history of the molecule and have added some references to Democritus fragmenta about atoms connecting through their hooks. But I'm using a French edition and have no official English translation. Does anyone have an English edition and can give the translation of fragments DK 68 A 80, DK 68 A 37 and DK 68 A 43? Thanks, Benio76 15:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The first section of the article seems to be just a statement put in there randomly. Is there any source (or sources) to back up the first "section" (which I deem to be a statement, rather than a section. -- TrekCaptainUSA ( talk) 14:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I started an article for Pseudo-Demikristo (Bolos of Mendes). Does any of this stuff belong there? J8079s ( talk) 17:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I have some sources to improve this article. The citations needed on the argument between Aristotle and Democritus regarding the Earth, Sun, and Stars is present in Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy, for instance. Also, I have a textbook on pre-socratic philosophy which contains some good information as well as references to back up current text. CABlankenship ( talk) 14:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
It's surprising what a high level of vandalism this article attracts. CABlankenship ( talk) 06:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
The "Conclusion" section of this article is bias. I assume it came mostly from the pages of Bertrand Russell? It reads like science and good-thinking was murdered by Aristotle only to be reborn after the Middle Ages. This, of course, is a mistaken (but common) over-simplification of the history of science, a history in which the Medieval Church was actually quite important and supportive (see the book "Science and Religion" by Edward Grant).
I am particularly troubled by language like "which led to a decay of vigor and a resurgence of popular superstition" and "It would not be until the Renaissance that philosophy would regain the vitality and independence...." Again, this reads like Bertrand Russell himself. But Bertrand Russell, who was quite bias about science, religion, and philosophy, is probably not the best source for this article on this matter. I would be more inclined to include a historian like Edward Grant on the history of science than an aggressive agnostic philosopher like Bertrand Russell.
Many many many people would argue on much much solid evidence that accepting some things Aristotle says does not at all lead to "a decay of vigor and a resurgence of popular superstition." The sentiment is so hostile and bias for Wikipedia that I almost could not believe what I was reading. This is not at all the kind of statement that belongs in an encyclopedia (at least not without lots of qualification and the opposite view being expressed).
This section expresses what I assume is the conclusion of Bertrand Russell, but, again, his is not the only voice on the matter (and is it even reliable?) and should be balanced by others. Thoughts? Jwhosler ( talk) 23:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
You're probably right. I rewrote this article because it was in a severely neglected state, and I possessed a few sources that I believed were interesting. My sources could be out-dated or insufficient, and I'm sure that (as an amateur in philosophy) I have made many mistakes. Hopefully a professional philosopher will take an interest in this article and improve upon my modest work. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article on Democritus, which is buttressed by frequent citations from B. Russellis, is highly biased in favor of modern scientific positivism and what its author calls "mechanistic" explanation. The author is confident of the authority of this point of view, presumably because it is popular among the public and contemporary empirical scientists. Whether it deserves such authority, however, is questionable. Take the following remark from the Democritus article:
"The history of modern science has shown that mechanistic questions lead to scientific knowledge, while the teleological question does not."
In considering the truth of this remark, first note that teleological questions are certainly far more useful than mechanistic questions as an avenue to biological knowledge, which is the aim of the zoological sciences, such as botany, ornithology, molecular biology, genetics, and so on: in short, of all the sciences of life-forms. Teleological explanations are also more useful in the applied or practical branches of zoological science, including all the branches of medicine. Since it seems quite possible that the cumulative expense and effort devoted to such sciences hugely outweighs that devoted to all other scientific endeavor collectively, the sentence in question, which summarizes the attitude of the Democritus article as a whole, seems manifestly false.
Moreover, it is not clear that "mechanistic" questions are a superior avenue to truth even in the sciences of non-living substances, such as physics or astronomy. Is it not correct to explain the flow of electrons in an electric current toward the positive pole as a "tendency" or "drive," a "seeking," in other words, of that pole? Each and every natural substance, in fact, is inhabited by a "force," or by more than one force, that constitutes its "nature," which in Aristotelian terminology is also its "form." It is in accordance with its nature or form that an electron seeks the positive pole, and this seeking is teleological.
Strictly perhaps we should consider the elements rather than sub-atomic particles as substances, and even the elements are surpassed in substantiality by life-forms, which are Aristotle's favorite example of substances. The very possession of determinate attributes by an elements constitues a nature that endows it with a tendency -- that is, a "drive," or "force" --in virtue of which it is inclined to engage in various determinate actions. In isolation, both pure oxygen and pure hydrogen, for example, have a tendency to explode, given an ignition source. When the Challenger spacecraft exploded, for example, investigators noted that an oxygen tank seemed to be leaking; in view of the tendency of pure oxygen to explode, this was deemed a likely candidate for investigation as the cause of the explosion. Moreover, hydrogen and oxygen tend to unite to form water molecules. Such combinations of elements, such as water, also have a "nature" or "tendency": water tends to flow flow downward, to freeze and boil at particular temperatures, and so forth. All material substances have a tendency to approach one another, varying proportionately to their combine mass and inversely proportionately to their distance from one another; this tendency is called "gravity." It is difficult to imagine how we could explain the nature of these substances without reference to such tendencies; any such reference is a "teleological" explanation.
It ought to be evident, then, that what the author of the Democritus article calls "mechanistic questions" -- the "efficient cause," in Aristotelian parlance -- are by no means the sole, nor perhaps even our primary, avenue to scientific knowledge. A grasp of one or more of the other three causes -- material, formal and final (that is, the "tendential" or "teological") -- is often just as enlightening.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gharnett"
comments on teleology It is probably true that most modern scientists, if asked whether teleological explanation is useful, would probably answer that it is not; and would then continue to use it profusely in discussion of the biological sciences especially, as well as in the sciences of non-living things. Remember that "modern scientists" are for the most part students of the various empirical natural sciences, not students of the philosophy of science itself. As for the account of teleology offered in the contribution entitled "comments on teleology in the Democritus article," it does not of course purport to represent the understanding of teleology common among such modern empirical scientists, precisely because that understanding is in error. It represents Aristotle's understanding of what is called the "final cause," which almost no modern empirical scientists knows, because they don't read Aristotle, whose texts are frequently difficult and which all lack the rhetorical flourishes to which modern readers are accustomed. Properly understood in its fullness, Aristotle's account of the final cause really places it in the nature of every substance insofar as it possesses what we call "forces" endowing it with a proclivity to behave in a determinate way with respect to other substances or even with itself as it develops through time. Hence even subatomic particles have a "tendency" to "strive" in one way or another with respect to other subatomic particles; the example of the electron "striving" to join a proton was offered. When explaining the proclivity of atoms to join with other atoms in forming molecules, it is difficult, if not impossible, to avoid mention of this urge or striving. Again, however, why not examine a particular account of a living being, noticing how often it offers the "reason" the lifeform behaves in a particular way; and try to imagine such an account without such explanations of the "why" of animal behavior. Beyond this point, the reader is urged to seek enlightenment in Aristotle's *Physics* and *Metaphysics,* though it will be a long task, for Aristotle's discussions are of a type that moderns are accustomed to call "philosophy," and a comparatively difficult philosophy at that. Gharnett (talk) 20:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gharnett" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gharnett ( talk • contribs) 20:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Can "round" in the article be explained further ? "Democritus held that the Earth was round...". Was he referring to a flat circular disc, or a sphere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.33.86.105 ( talk) 20:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I would like to suggest a alternate translation of his name:
I think this text could be improved in two ways:
1. Of course it's useful to know the context of this hypothesis, namely in dialogue with Parmenides/Zeno, but as it is currently explained it seems a little unclear to me due to having to derive it from how it differs with Parmenides/Zeno's theory. At the moment Parmenides/Zeno's theory is the main focus here, while it should be the atomists theory.
2. In the second paragraph, after giving a short pointer on the atomists theory, it continues with its relevance to modern science. Although I agree there is certainly some relevance, I do question the suggestion that the atomists concept of 'void' would match the modern day concept of 'space'.
In the preceding text, the void hypothesis is already mentioned along with some of the reserves of my second point, so perhaps a clearer division should be made on the subject. Reorganising the current text should solve it nicely.
80.101.115.178 ( talk) 22:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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"Plato is said to have disliked him so much that he wished all his books burned.[7]"
"He may have been acquainted with Socrates, but Plato does not mention him and Democritus himself is quoted as saying, "I came to Athens and no one knew me."
So... which is it. Did Plato know him or didn't he? You can't have it both ways. 24.20.203.54 ( talk) 22:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
This is an exaggeration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.10.9 ( talk) 02:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I am extremely sceptical of the claim made in the article that "Democritus held that the Earth was round (spherical)," since it flatly contradicts what Aristotle says in Book II of On the Heavens:
I have been unable to find any passage in the two references cited, The Presocratic Philosophers and Early Greek Philosophy, both by
Jonathan Barnes, or in any other authoritative source, which supports the claim. In fact, on p.26 of the latter book, Barnes quotes the above-cited passage from On the Heavens, having 2 pages earlier attributed the idea that "The earth is flat and rides on air" to
Anaximenes. I strongly suspect that the claim in the article is based on a misunderstanding of some passage which discusses Democritus's ideas on the shape of the world—meaning the universe—, or of the
oikumene—that is, the inhabited lands known to the ancient Greeks. Either of these could be held to be "round", meaning "roughly circular" in the latter case, without implying a belief in the sphericity of the Earth.
David Wilson (
talk ·
cont) 15:11, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
I HAVE NO IDEA!!!!! I CAME HERE[WIKIPEDIA] FOR THE ANSWER, BUT I CAN'T FIND IT ANYWHERE!!! CAN ANYONE HELP ME????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.229.151 ( talk) 03:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
The main article for Democritus and others philosopher's ideas on the topic is Atomism. Dimadick ( talk) 07:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
As this page is constantly getting vandalized by IP address users, I've requested page protection, to limit editing to confirmed users. Teishin ( talk) 20:59, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the request was denied. Teishin ( talk) 22:49, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to edit the paragraph "Mathematics" but unfortunately the page is write-protected. Here is the paragraph. If you can, please edit the paragraph "Mathematics" like below:-- 151.45.14.108 ( talk) 18:37, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Democritus was also a pioneer of mathematics and geometry in particular. We only know this through citations of his works (titled On Numbers, On Geometrics, On Tangencies, On Mapping, and On Irrationals) in other writings, since all of Democritus's body of work did not survive the Middle Ages.
According to Archimedes, [1] Democritus was among the first to observe that a cone and pyramid with the same base area and height has one-third the volume of a cylinder or prism respectively. Archimedes pointed out that Democritus didn't provide any proof of this statement, which was instead provided by Eudoxus of Cnidus. [2] [3]
Moreover Plutarch (Plut. De Comm. 39) stated that Democritus had raised the following question: if two planes parallel to the base and indefinitely near to each other cut a cone, are the surfaces of the sections equal or unequal? If they are equal, the cone becomes a cylinder, while if they are unequal, the cone becomes an "irregular cone" with indentations or steps. [4] This question could be easily solved through calculus and it's been suggested, therefore, that Democritus may be considered a forerunner of calculus. [5] [6]
References
I am reading through Copleston's History of Philosophy, and in discussing the Atomists (Pre-Socratics) he says the following:
However, the intro paragraph to this article says:
I don't think we should replace what's already there (since historians of philosophy seem to disagree on his classification), but it would be nice to at least add a note highlighting this different opinion and the fact that a disagreement does exist.
I have not made many contributions to Wikipedia in the past, so I cannot add this information. Not to mention: I am not sure of the best way to incorporate it. Maybe as a note to this sentence?
Arkensiel ( talk) 14:39, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
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In the first section as it mentions “Democritus was so disliked by Plato that he LATTER had all of his books burned”
Should be “later” 2607:9880:1F08:F2:249E:B70E:5BBD:3202 ( talk) 08:47, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
What's with the sentence "He is an Atomists (sic)" at the end of the "Life" section? His atomic theory is referenced in the lead and in the "Philosophy and science" section, so it sits incongruously here and probably ought to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.192.96 ( talk) 16:32, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
This page is semi-protected but needs the lock symbol... Please — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carletteyt ( talk • contribs) 06:06, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The entire epistemology section appears to have been written by someone who was trying to read Pyrrhonism into Democritus: it's more or less directly contradicted by the Stanford Encyclopedia, which says that Democritus did not believe different sensations were produced in different people, or that conflicting evidence between senses produces doubt that the senses are accurate. I've deleted the whole section: while we will undoubtedly need a section on Democritus' epistemology, we might as well not have one that completely disagrees with modern scholarship and didn't have any secondary sources supporting it.
I'm going to continue to remove original research from this article as I find it, the whole article may even need to be stubbed based on how bad a state it's in, but I believe it's too soon to tell yet. - car chasm ( talk) 05:50, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Why was this deleted earlier?
In the West, the Greek philosopher known as DEMOCRITUS OF ABDERA (4th century BC) is credited as the one who first theorized about the existence of atoms. His school of thought has been called “atomism”, however, the concept of atoms was entirely new to Greece, whereas it was an old concept in India dating back at least to Bhagavan Mahavira (599 to 527 BC) of Jainism. At least 5 different ancient Greek and Roman historians wrote that Democritus traveled to India and studied there (as well as Babylonia and Egypt). These historians include DIOGENES LAERTIUS, SUIDAS, STRABO (while citing Alexander the Great’s historian Megasthenes), AELIAN (Claudius Aelianus), and the early Christian theologian HIPPOLYTUS. In fact, both Diogenes Laertius and Hippolytus specifically stated that Democritus studied under the GYMNOSOPHISTS or “naked sages” of India who have been identified as none other than the naked Jain monks. Hence, it is possible that Democritus of Abdera gained the idea of atomism, which was new to the Greeks, directly from the Jains in India.
Source: Taylor, C.C.W. THE ATOMISTS: LEUCIPPUS AND DEMOCRITUS - FRAGMENTS A TEXT AND TRANSLATION WITH A COMMENTARY. University of Toronto Press, 1999. 47.138.18.163 ( talk) 05:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
There is no good evidence that Democritus was the teacher of Protagoras, as their wiki pages clame. Also, Protagoras was 30 years older than Democritus, his supposed teacher! Rosopsida ( talk) 14:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
"none of his work has survived" must be amended to:
"no complete copy of any of his works has survived, but some parts survive as fragments and quotations in surviving works by other ancient authors." 188.33.232.210 ( talk) 17:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
In one of the inserts it states "Democritus argued that the circular cross-section of a cone would need step-like sides, rather than being shaped like a cylinder." Most people turn to Wikipedia in order to satisfy their desire or need to understand something, but what does this mean 'step-like sides. While I appreciate that somebody made the effort to provide the source of this statement, I still lack understanding. hskoppek ( talk) 13:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
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I am hesitant to update this page, but there are some grammatical issues that make reading it difficult, a source for the void thing would be awesome as I am currently in a course which looks at primary sources of astronomical thought. I will add a milky way quotation.. --[user:smkatz|Sam]
-- I agree that there are pretty severe grammar problems. I'd add that there is a lot of uncited material more related to the philosophy of science than specifically to Democritus. This article needs a lot of work. 67.9.139.107 ( talk) 23:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
--Would it just be a matter of translating the Dutch page, or is there an existing English document that just needs proofing? --[user:epsas|Epsas]
-- I've made a few changes in sentence structure (mostly dealing with tense or plurality) and I've made an approximation of Democritus's Greek spelling. If anyone can confirm or correct my estimation, I would appreciate it. Comrade42 04:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I've found a source that confirms my approximation: http://www.geocities.com/lucretius5978/biography/democritus.html So it seems that it isn't necessary to go out of the way to check up on my spelling. Comrade42 04:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
-- What is his "distant star theory?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Populer208 ( talk • contribs) 14:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
-- In the section called "Life", paragraph 3, the statement, to wit: "He may have been acquainted with Socrates, but Plato does not mention him..." directly contradicts the statement made in the introduction's second paragraph, to wit: "Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.[6]". So, which is it? I'm not expert enough to correct the contradiction, but know one when I see one. 75.80.37.209 ( talk) 19:37, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
An anon removed mention of Osthanes from this article. The only references I could find in a quick search to a relationship between the two is in the works of Henry Cornelius Agrippa, who (though fascinating) is not exactly an encyclopedic source. Does anyone have anything else on this relationship? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 14:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
"Democritus is said to have had a happy disposition, and is sometimes referred to as the "laughing philosopher," as opposed to Heraclitus, who is known as the "weeping philosopher." In the Divine Comedy Dante sees the shade of Heraclitus in Limbo with those of other classical philosophers."
Is it relevant to an article on Democritus that Heraclitus is in Limbo in Dante's Divine Comedy? I shamefully must admit that I have not read Dante's Divine Comedy. Is Democritus mentioned there as well? If he is, I propose we amend the text to state that he sees the shade of Democritus. If not, I propose that this last bit be moved to Heraclitus' article if it is not present there already.
Democritus is seen in Dante's Limbo. He is the first philosopher mentioned after Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates (Aristotle is referred to indirectly as "the Master of those who know"). 72.191.161.213 ( talk) 19:15, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
on the Leucippus page it says that the only surviving writing is "Nothing occurs at random, but everything occurs for a reason and by necessity." On this page it says that Democritus said this.
wwww
Does anyone know Democritus's first name? (or can even give a guess?) In all the sources I have looked in, I have not found any refrence to him even having a first name. -- 69.251.94.183 02:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Democritus IS his first name. All the ancient philosophers are called by their first name.
Hi! I'm helping in history of the molecule and have added some references to Democritus fragmenta about atoms connecting through their hooks. But I'm using a French edition and have no official English translation. Does anyone have an English edition and can give the translation of fragments DK 68 A 80, DK 68 A 37 and DK 68 A 43? Thanks, Benio76 15:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The first section of the article seems to be just a statement put in there randomly. Is there any source (or sources) to back up the first "section" (which I deem to be a statement, rather than a section. -- TrekCaptainUSA ( talk) 14:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I started an article for Pseudo-Demikristo (Bolos of Mendes). Does any of this stuff belong there? J8079s ( talk) 17:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I have some sources to improve this article. The citations needed on the argument between Aristotle and Democritus regarding the Earth, Sun, and Stars is present in Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy, for instance. Also, I have a textbook on pre-socratic philosophy which contains some good information as well as references to back up current text. CABlankenship ( talk) 14:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
It's surprising what a high level of vandalism this article attracts. CABlankenship ( talk) 06:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
The "Conclusion" section of this article is bias. I assume it came mostly from the pages of Bertrand Russell? It reads like science and good-thinking was murdered by Aristotle only to be reborn after the Middle Ages. This, of course, is a mistaken (but common) over-simplification of the history of science, a history in which the Medieval Church was actually quite important and supportive (see the book "Science and Religion" by Edward Grant).
I am particularly troubled by language like "which led to a decay of vigor and a resurgence of popular superstition" and "It would not be until the Renaissance that philosophy would regain the vitality and independence...." Again, this reads like Bertrand Russell himself. But Bertrand Russell, who was quite bias about science, religion, and philosophy, is probably not the best source for this article on this matter. I would be more inclined to include a historian like Edward Grant on the history of science than an aggressive agnostic philosopher like Bertrand Russell.
Many many many people would argue on much much solid evidence that accepting some things Aristotle says does not at all lead to "a decay of vigor and a resurgence of popular superstition." The sentiment is so hostile and bias for Wikipedia that I almost could not believe what I was reading. This is not at all the kind of statement that belongs in an encyclopedia (at least not without lots of qualification and the opposite view being expressed).
This section expresses what I assume is the conclusion of Bertrand Russell, but, again, his is not the only voice on the matter (and is it even reliable?) and should be balanced by others. Thoughts? Jwhosler ( talk) 23:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
You're probably right. I rewrote this article because it was in a severely neglected state, and I possessed a few sources that I believed were interesting. My sources could be out-dated or insufficient, and I'm sure that (as an amateur in philosophy) I have made many mistakes. Hopefully a professional philosopher will take an interest in this article and improve upon my modest work. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article on Democritus, which is buttressed by frequent citations from B. Russellis, is highly biased in favor of modern scientific positivism and what its author calls "mechanistic" explanation. The author is confident of the authority of this point of view, presumably because it is popular among the public and contemporary empirical scientists. Whether it deserves such authority, however, is questionable. Take the following remark from the Democritus article:
"The history of modern science has shown that mechanistic questions lead to scientific knowledge, while the teleological question does not."
In considering the truth of this remark, first note that teleological questions are certainly far more useful than mechanistic questions as an avenue to biological knowledge, which is the aim of the zoological sciences, such as botany, ornithology, molecular biology, genetics, and so on: in short, of all the sciences of life-forms. Teleological explanations are also more useful in the applied or practical branches of zoological science, including all the branches of medicine. Since it seems quite possible that the cumulative expense and effort devoted to such sciences hugely outweighs that devoted to all other scientific endeavor collectively, the sentence in question, which summarizes the attitude of the Democritus article as a whole, seems manifestly false.
Moreover, it is not clear that "mechanistic" questions are a superior avenue to truth even in the sciences of non-living substances, such as physics or astronomy. Is it not correct to explain the flow of electrons in an electric current toward the positive pole as a "tendency" or "drive," a "seeking," in other words, of that pole? Each and every natural substance, in fact, is inhabited by a "force," or by more than one force, that constitutes its "nature," which in Aristotelian terminology is also its "form." It is in accordance with its nature or form that an electron seeks the positive pole, and this seeking is teleological.
Strictly perhaps we should consider the elements rather than sub-atomic particles as substances, and even the elements are surpassed in substantiality by life-forms, which are Aristotle's favorite example of substances. The very possession of determinate attributes by an elements constitues a nature that endows it with a tendency -- that is, a "drive," or "force" --in virtue of which it is inclined to engage in various determinate actions. In isolation, both pure oxygen and pure hydrogen, for example, have a tendency to explode, given an ignition source. When the Challenger spacecraft exploded, for example, investigators noted that an oxygen tank seemed to be leaking; in view of the tendency of pure oxygen to explode, this was deemed a likely candidate for investigation as the cause of the explosion. Moreover, hydrogen and oxygen tend to unite to form water molecules. Such combinations of elements, such as water, also have a "nature" or "tendency": water tends to flow flow downward, to freeze and boil at particular temperatures, and so forth. All material substances have a tendency to approach one another, varying proportionately to their combine mass and inversely proportionately to their distance from one another; this tendency is called "gravity." It is difficult to imagine how we could explain the nature of these substances without reference to such tendencies; any such reference is a "teleological" explanation.
It ought to be evident, then, that what the author of the Democritus article calls "mechanistic questions" -- the "efficient cause," in Aristotelian parlance -- are by no means the sole, nor perhaps even our primary, avenue to scientific knowledge. A grasp of one or more of the other three causes -- material, formal and final (that is, the "tendential" or "teological") -- is often just as enlightening.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gharnett"
comments on teleology It is probably true that most modern scientists, if asked whether teleological explanation is useful, would probably answer that it is not; and would then continue to use it profusely in discussion of the biological sciences especially, as well as in the sciences of non-living things. Remember that "modern scientists" are for the most part students of the various empirical natural sciences, not students of the philosophy of science itself. As for the account of teleology offered in the contribution entitled "comments on teleology in the Democritus article," it does not of course purport to represent the understanding of teleology common among such modern empirical scientists, precisely because that understanding is in error. It represents Aristotle's understanding of what is called the "final cause," which almost no modern empirical scientists knows, because they don't read Aristotle, whose texts are frequently difficult and which all lack the rhetorical flourishes to which modern readers are accustomed. Properly understood in its fullness, Aristotle's account of the final cause really places it in the nature of every substance insofar as it possesses what we call "forces" endowing it with a proclivity to behave in a determinate way with respect to other substances or even with itself as it develops through time. Hence even subatomic particles have a "tendency" to "strive" in one way or another with respect to other subatomic particles; the example of the electron "striving" to join a proton was offered. When explaining the proclivity of atoms to join with other atoms in forming molecules, it is difficult, if not impossible, to avoid mention of this urge or striving. Again, however, why not examine a particular account of a living being, noticing how often it offers the "reason" the lifeform behaves in a particular way; and try to imagine such an account without such explanations of the "why" of animal behavior. Beyond this point, the reader is urged to seek enlightenment in Aristotle's *Physics* and *Metaphysics,* though it will be a long task, for Aristotle's discussions are of a type that moderns are accustomed to call "philosophy," and a comparatively difficult philosophy at that. Gharnett (talk) 20:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gharnett" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gharnett ( talk • contribs) 20:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Can "round" in the article be explained further ? "Democritus held that the Earth was round...". Was he referring to a flat circular disc, or a sphere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.33.86.105 ( talk) 20:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I would like to suggest a alternate translation of his name:
I think this text could be improved in two ways:
1. Of course it's useful to know the context of this hypothesis, namely in dialogue with Parmenides/Zeno, but as it is currently explained it seems a little unclear to me due to having to derive it from how it differs with Parmenides/Zeno's theory. At the moment Parmenides/Zeno's theory is the main focus here, while it should be the atomists theory.
2. In the second paragraph, after giving a short pointer on the atomists theory, it continues with its relevance to modern science. Although I agree there is certainly some relevance, I do question the suggestion that the atomists concept of 'void' would match the modern day concept of 'space'.
In the preceding text, the void hypothesis is already mentioned along with some of the reserves of my second point, so perhaps a clearer division should be made on the subject. Reorganising the current text should solve it nicely.
80.101.115.178 ( talk) 22:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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"Plato is said to have disliked him so much that he wished all his books burned.[7]"
"He may have been acquainted with Socrates, but Plato does not mention him and Democritus himself is quoted as saying, "I came to Athens and no one knew me."
So... which is it. Did Plato know him or didn't he? You can't have it both ways. 24.20.203.54 ( talk) 22:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
This is an exaggeration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.10.9 ( talk) 02:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I am extremely sceptical of the claim made in the article that "Democritus held that the Earth was round (spherical)," since it flatly contradicts what Aristotle says in Book II of On the Heavens:
I have been unable to find any passage in the two references cited, The Presocratic Philosophers and Early Greek Philosophy, both by
Jonathan Barnes, or in any other authoritative source, which supports the claim. In fact, on p.26 of the latter book, Barnes quotes the above-cited passage from On the Heavens, having 2 pages earlier attributed the idea that "The earth is flat and rides on air" to
Anaximenes. I strongly suspect that the claim in the article is based on a misunderstanding of some passage which discusses Democritus's ideas on the shape of the world—meaning the universe—, or of the
oikumene—that is, the inhabited lands known to the ancient Greeks. Either of these could be held to be "round", meaning "roughly circular" in the latter case, without implying a belief in the sphericity of the Earth.
David Wilson (
talk ·
cont) 15:11, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
I HAVE NO IDEA!!!!! I CAME HERE[WIKIPEDIA] FOR THE ANSWER, BUT I CAN'T FIND IT ANYWHERE!!! CAN ANYONE HELP ME????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.229.151 ( talk) 03:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
The main article for Democritus and others philosopher's ideas on the topic is Atomism. Dimadick ( talk) 07:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
As this page is constantly getting vandalized by IP address users, I've requested page protection, to limit editing to confirmed users. Teishin ( talk) 20:59, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the request was denied. Teishin ( talk) 22:49, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to edit the paragraph "Mathematics" but unfortunately the page is write-protected. Here is the paragraph. If you can, please edit the paragraph "Mathematics" like below:-- 151.45.14.108 ( talk) 18:37, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Democritus was also a pioneer of mathematics and geometry in particular. We only know this through citations of his works (titled On Numbers, On Geometrics, On Tangencies, On Mapping, and On Irrationals) in other writings, since all of Democritus's body of work did not survive the Middle Ages.
According to Archimedes, [1] Democritus was among the first to observe that a cone and pyramid with the same base area and height has one-third the volume of a cylinder or prism respectively. Archimedes pointed out that Democritus didn't provide any proof of this statement, which was instead provided by Eudoxus of Cnidus. [2] [3]
Moreover Plutarch (Plut. De Comm. 39) stated that Democritus had raised the following question: if two planes parallel to the base and indefinitely near to each other cut a cone, are the surfaces of the sections equal or unequal? If they are equal, the cone becomes a cylinder, while if they are unequal, the cone becomes an "irregular cone" with indentations or steps. [4] This question could be easily solved through calculus and it's been suggested, therefore, that Democritus may be considered a forerunner of calculus. [5] [6]
References
I am reading through Copleston's History of Philosophy, and in discussing the Atomists (Pre-Socratics) he says the following:
However, the intro paragraph to this article says:
I don't think we should replace what's already there (since historians of philosophy seem to disagree on his classification), but it would be nice to at least add a note highlighting this different opinion and the fact that a disagreement does exist.
I have not made many contributions to Wikipedia in the past, so I cannot add this information. Not to mention: I am not sure of the best way to incorporate it. Maybe as a note to this sentence?
Arkensiel ( talk) 14:39, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
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In the first section as it mentions “Democritus was so disliked by Plato that he LATTER had all of his books burned”
Should be “later” 2607:9880:1F08:F2:249E:B70E:5BBD:3202 ( talk) 08:47, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
What's with the sentence "He is an Atomists (sic)" at the end of the "Life" section? His atomic theory is referenced in the lead and in the "Philosophy and science" section, so it sits incongruously here and probably ought to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.192.96 ( talk) 16:32, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
This page is semi-protected but needs the lock symbol... Please — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carletteyt ( talk • contribs) 06:06, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The entire epistemology section appears to have been written by someone who was trying to read Pyrrhonism into Democritus: it's more or less directly contradicted by the Stanford Encyclopedia, which says that Democritus did not believe different sensations were produced in different people, or that conflicting evidence between senses produces doubt that the senses are accurate. I've deleted the whole section: while we will undoubtedly need a section on Democritus' epistemology, we might as well not have one that completely disagrees with modern scholarship and didn't have any secondary sources supporting it.
I'm going to continue to remove original research from this article as I find it, the whole article may even need to be stubbed based on how bad a state it's in, but I believe it's too soon to tell yet. - car chasm ( talk) 05:50, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Why was this deleted earlier?
In the West, the Greek philosopher known as DEMOCRITUS OF ABDERA (4th century BC) is credited as the one who first theorized about the existence of atoms. His school of thought has been called “atomism”, however, the concept of atoms was entirely new to Greece, whereas it was an old concept in India dating back at least to Bhagavan Mahavira (599 to 527 BC) of Jainism. At least 5 different ancient Greek and Roman historians wrote that Democritus traveled to India and studied there (as well as Babylonia and Egypt). These historians include DIOGENES LAERTIUS, SUIDAS, STRABO (while citing Alexander the Great’s historian Megasthenes), AELIAN (Claudius Aelianus), and the early Christian theologian HIPPOLYTUS. In fact, both Diogenes Laertius and Hippolytus specifically stated that Democritus studied under the GYMNOSOPHISTS or “naked sages” of India who have been identified as none other than the naked Jain monks. Hence, it is possible that Democritus of Abdera gained the idea of atomism, which was new to the Greeks, directly from the Jains in India.
Source: Taylor, C.C.W. THE ATOMISTS: LEUCIPPUS AND DEMOCRITUS - FRAGMENTS A TEXT AND TRANSLATION WITH A COMMENTARY. University of Toronto Press, 1999. 47.138.18.163 ( talk) 05:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
There is no good evidence that Democritus was the teacher of Protagoras, as their wiki pages clame. Also, Protagoras was 30 years older than Democritus, his supposed teacher! Rosopsida ( talk) 14:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
"none of his work has survived" must be amended to:
"no complete copy of any of his works has survived, but some parts survive as fragments and quotations in surviving works by other ancient authors." 188.33.232.210 ( talk) 17:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
In one of the inserts it states "Democritus argued that the circular cross-section of a cone would need step-like sides, rather than being shaped like a cylinder." Most people turn to Wikipedia in order to satisfy their desire or need to understand something, but what does this mean 'step-like sides. While I appreciate that somebody made the effort to provide the source of this statement, I still lack understanding. hskoppek ( talk) 13:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)