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"several shooting attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers"
I wonder is there any source for the claim that the DFLP has attacked civilians during the second Intifada? I'm not particularly aware of this having happened.
"The DFLP conducts occasional guerrilla operations in Southern Lebanon."
Also curious about this - is it perhaps out of date since the Israeli withdrawal?
The previous version of this article had a bit of a C&P look to it, especially the peculiar grammar. Palmiro 22:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I see the reference to "occupied territories" has been changed to "West Bank and Gaza Strip", separately wikified. I don't think this is a good idea; the occupied territories are effectively a single political/territorial concept and it's not very fair that anyone trying to look them up should have to go to two different entries. Furthermore the West Bank article referred to introduces potential confusion as to whether East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank. In the context of this article (and I suspect most similar articles) it clearly is. I propose to change this to occupied Palestinian territories. It would be both at odds with Wiipedia naming principles (use of common name) and ease of use to do otherwise, in my opinion. The term 'occupied Palestinian territories' is widely used, relatively concise, and refers to an existing article, all of which make it preferable to West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, which is the only unambiguous alternative.
If the problem is with the name rather than the reference, I'd be perfectly willing to point it at a West Bank and Gaza Strip article if there was one that explained the location and status of the two bits of land together, but as you can see there isn't. Palmiro 11:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't accept that OPT provides support for any POV. While you might argue that it could logically include Israel, in the English language it's never used that way (unlike, for example "Occupied Palestine"); it has a clear, widely understood meaning. In any case, to be honest I'm not particularly hung up on the terminology, but I would like to find a solution that sends people who want to know what the territories are, or why it might be that the DFLP organises there in particular, to one place rather than two. Furthermore, as I remarked above, while you and I might well agree that "West Bank" is precise, the actual West Bank article muddies the waters. Can you suggest how we might address these two problems? Palmiro 12:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
The following is the third paragraph of the West Bank article.
The status of East Jerusalem is controversial. Israel, having annexed it, no longer considers it part of the West Bank; however, the annexation is not recognized by the United Nations or any individual country. In either case, it is often treated as separate from the West Bank due to its importance; for example, the Oslo Peace Accords treat the status of East Jerusalem as a separate matter from the status of the other Palestinian territories, to be resolved at a later undetermined date.
If that doesn't suggest to you that there is doubt as to whether East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank, I'll be surprised. Palmiro 10:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
From your comment above it would appear that you yourself don't think the West Bank includes East Jerusalem. In that case, you certainly shouldn't have made the change you did in the article as it would render it misleading to anyone reading it with the same definition as you in mind. Incidentally the 'occupied' status of the West Bank including East Jerusalem has been established in the International Court of Justice ruling on the West Bank fence/wall/barrier (as you please):
At the close of its analysis, the Court notes that the territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories have done nothing to alter this situation. The Court concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.
[1] Anyway, you still haven't addressed my principle point, which I will repeat:
I would like to find a solution that sends people who want to know what the territories are, or why it might be that the DFLP organises there in particular, to one place rather than two.
If you have a problem with the content or name of the "Palestinian Territories" article, you should address that by seeking to resolve those problems directly, not by going around breaking wiki-links to it from other relevant topics as you did here and on Palestinian People's Party. Palmiro 19:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
You still haven't explained what the disadvantages are! The 1947 partition plan is of no relevance, by the way. It didn't envisage the rest of the West Bank becoming part of Jordan either. The fact remains that neither area was ever recognised as being part of sovereign Israel but rather both were occupied by Israel during the June 1967 war.
You don't seem to understand the status of the ICJ ruling either. It was an advisory ruling as to whether the contruction of the wall contravened internqtional law. That means that the court's decision is not binding on any party and does not of itself legally require action from any party to implement it. However, in the course of its ruling, it made a number of findings, including the finding that the OPT are occupied territories under international law. The fact that this was stated in the course of an advisory ruling rather than a binding one does not detract from its authoritative nature. The ICJ is the authorative judicial instance in questions of international law. Palmiro 16:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I dispute your remark as to POV. This was a link to a page that exists on Wikipedia. If you don't like the name of that page, you should seek to resolve that issue on that page, not by preventing other articles linking to it. Excess verbiage: "Palestinian Territories" is two words, "West Bank and Gaza Strip" five. Ambiguity: no more than for West Bank, on the basis of the entries here.
As for the 1947 partition plan, perhaps I should have been clearer. What I meant was that it doesn't have any bearing on whether EJ is occupied or not. You could certainly argue that it means the Palestinian 'right' to it (and incidentally that would also mean to Bethlehem) is less clearly established than in the case of the remainder of the territories, but that isn;t in my view an adequate reason for rejecting the use of the term Palestinian territories, which can be justified in three separate ways (1) the last state they were recognised as belonging to was the British mandate of Palestine (2) they lie within the historic region of Palestine (3) they are inhabited primarily by Palestinians (4) most importantly it's widely used and understood. But I really don't want to get into a row about terminology.
Would you accept as a compromise turning the existing West Bank and Gaza Strip article into a redirect to Palestinian territories and linking that in the text? As far as I can see that would cover your objections (subject to noone objecting on that article's talk page). Palmiro 19:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
OK. My objections to your edit stand. However, while I don't think this is a satisfactory approach, I'm not going to pursue the issue especially given the inadequate nature of the current PT article. Palmiro 19:57, 18 July 2005 (UTC) The DFLP did purposely commit terrorist attacks on israeli civilians during the second intifada. Even before the second intifada, the DFLP committed terrorist attacks on israeli civilians.-Dendoi
I don't understand you people... The DFLP carried out the Ma'alot massacre, they took explicit responsibility for it! So why can't it be stated clearly in the introductory paragraph, that the DFLP carried out terrorist attacks? It's a fact that can't be disputed. Please read the article and you'll agree that it should be there. The terrorist attacks are also mentioned in the article itself, and were never denied. I don't understand why you keep deleting the sentence "...and military organization, which carried out numerous terrorist attacks". Please explain it to me clearly; I think it must be there. Thanks. -- Gabi S. 07:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I see this article claiming that the ten point program calls for the two state solution. Hah. The progam calls for first a Palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza and then the Palestinian state to expand to replace Israel. Read the plan yourself. It also says that the PLO will strugle against any Palesitnian entity at the price of peace or recognition.-Dendoi December 19, 2006 Teusday 10:28 PM
The DFLPs goal is to replace Israel with a Communist Palestinian state. If you look at the map of palestine on their website, you would see that israel is not even on that map. That map does not show the border that distinguishes the West Bank from Israel and does not show the border that distinguishes Gaza from the Jewish state.-Dendoi
Please read WP:WTA. Note too, that this discussion ended without concensus on whether such a category was useful or not. In order to include it here, consensus from other editors must be gained. This article is already categorized under . The reason for this is that no one officially classified the DFLP today as a terrorist organization. Indeed, the article explains that its attacks on Israel are limited to military targets within the Green Line. In other words, this is a militant group, but not a terrorist group. Tiamut talk 15:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Ridiculous. We have a guideline called WP:WTA precisely because on man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. So please don't pretend that by providing one source (or even tens of sources) that designates some of the actions of this group as "terrorism" that the bar for including this group in the Category:Palestinian terrorism has been met. The category should not even exist in the first place, but just because it does, does not oblige us to use.
I can provide tens of sources that characterize this group as a "national liberation movement", "resistance movement", "freedom fighters" and we could create categories with those names as well. We don't do that here at Wikipedia though since it would lead to endless edit-warring across mutliple pages (as is happening here and at Fateh and elsewhere).
In any case, there is no consensus for including this category on this page. It is the editors adding something to the page who have to gain consensus for their edits. Since none has been attained, the cat shouldn't be here. Period. Tiamut talk 17:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't populate these categories, any of them. As I said above, categorization is generally not my thing. When articles on my watchlist have had these categories added to them and I've seen it, I've removed them. Otherwise, I have nothing to do with them since I think they are silly. Terrorism is a tactic, and should not be paired with national ideologies or national groups as though it were possible to essentialize people. It's not. If people insist on using a category with the word terrorism in it, I might accept Category:Use of terrorism as a tactic. Terrorism is a tactical means to end. No more, no less. It's not worse than any other form of violent intimidation. Unfortunately, its a much more emotive term as it is used colloquially and when paired with national groupings (as in "Palestinian terrorism") becomes borderline racist and de-humanizing. Tiamut talk 02:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Between Fatah and the rejectionists" it reads the DFLP "acted as a strong supporter of the 1974 Ten Point Program." The words "Ten Point Program" links to a website which might be malicious and I believe should be looked into. LoneWolf1992( talk) 01:48, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
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________________
There is a dead reference to the 10 point program. There is now an article that can be used in place of the dead external link. PLO's_Ten_Point_Program ~~
There are no citations for the claim that DFLP is MLMist. I have never seen anyone claim this with any evidence other than this article, which cites no evidence itself. If there is no evidence, this claim should be removed. 2601:642:C481:4640:EDCD:145B:D668:C976 ( talk) 03:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
In 2023, the DFLP, under Hawatmeh’s leadership, joined the Hamas-led offensive Operation Al-Aqsa Storm against Israel, attacking multiple targets with their paramilitary wing, the National Resistance Brigades. [1] The DFLP admitted to this involvement in their party news, Alhourriah, on October 8th. [2] Solidarityandfreedom ( talk) 00:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC) There is good evidence that the DFLP may have participated in the killing of civilians when Hamas invaded Israel. There is a video that suggests that. And I'm a supporter of Palestinians! But I believe in truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:E070:A850:A03B:6717:F4A1:B764 ( talk) 11:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
References
Pieter Cleppe wrote on Twitter:
Funds from Sweden's "Left Party"'s aid organization have gone to projects with links to the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), a group that participated in the Hamas terror raid on Israel.
The U.S. (and the EU) should now relist this group as a terrorist organisation, which it was until 1999:
/info/en/?search=Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine
Do You know is the "Left Party" called the social democrats or what kind of Marxian party is it, i.e. what is the name today? Kartasto ( talk) 05:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/global/664139/ 2.55.184.3 ( talk) 07:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Please edit heading of first section of History. "Formation as the PDFLP" should read "Formation as the DPFLP." Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas F. Scharff ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
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"several shooting attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers"
I wonder is there any source for the claim that the DFLP has attacked civilians during the second Intifada? I'm not particularly aware of this having happened.
"The DFLP conducts occasional guerrilla operations in Southern Lebanon."
Also curious about this - is it perhaps out of date since the Israeli withdrawal?
The previous version of this article had a bit of a C&P look to it, especially the peculiar grammar. Palmiro 22:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I see the reference to "occupied territories" has been changed to "West Bank and Gaza Strip", separately wikified. I don't think this is a good idea; the occupied territories are effectively a single political/territorial concept and it's not very fair that anyone trying to look them up should have to go to two different entries. Furthermore the West Bank article referred to introduces potential confusion as to whether East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank. In the context of this article (and I suspect most similar articles) it clearly is. I propose to change this to occupied Palestinian territories. It would be both at odds with Wiipedia naming principles (use of common name) and ease of use to do otherwise, in my opinion. The term 'occupied Palestinian territories' is widely used, relatively concise, and refers to an existing article, all of which make it preferable to West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, which is the only unambiguous alternative.
If the problem is with the name rather than the reference, I'd be perfectly willing to point it at a West Bank and Gaza Strip article if there was one that explained the location and status of the two bits of land together, but as you can see there isn't. Palmiro 11:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't accept that OPT provides support for any POV. While you might argue that it could logically include Israel, in the English language it's never used that way (unlike, for example "Occupied Palestine"); it has a clear, widely understood meaning. In any case, to be honest I'm not particularly hung up on the terminology, but I would like to find a solution that sends people who want to know what the territories are, or why it might be that the DFLP organises there in particular, to one place rather than two. Furthermore, as I remarked above, while you and I might well agree that "West Bank" is precise, the actual West Bank article muddies the waters. Can you suggest how we might address these two problems? Palmiro 12:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
The following is the third paragraph of the West Bank article.
The status of East Jerusalem is controversial. Israel, having annexed it, no longer considers it part of the West Bank; however, the annexation is not recognized by the United Nations or any individual country. In either case, it is often treated as separate from the West Bank due to its importance; for example, the Oslo Peace Accords treat the status of East Jerusalem as a separate matter from the status of the other Palestinian territories, to be resolved at a later undetermined date.
If that doesn't suggest to you that there is doubt as to whether East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank, I'll be surprised. Palmiro 10:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
From your comment above it would appear that you yourself don't think the West Bank includes East Jerusalem. In that case, you certainly shouldn't have made the change you did in the article as it would render it misleading to anyone reading it with the same definition as you in mind. Incidentally the 'occupied' status of the West Bank including East Jerusalem has been established in the International Court of Justice ruling on the West Bank fence/wall/barrier (as you please):
At the close of its analysis, the Court notes that the territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories have done nothing to alter this situation. The Court concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.
[1] Anyway, you still haven't addressed my principle point, which I will repeat:
I would like to find a solution that sends people who want to know what the territories are, or why it might be that the DFLP organises there in particular, to one place rather than two.
If you have a problem with the content or name of the "Palestinian Territories" article, you should address that by seeking to resolve those problems directly, not by going around breaking wiki-links to it from other relevant topics as you did here and on Palestinian People's Party. Palmiro 19:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
You still haven't explained what the disadvantages are! The 1947 partition plan is of no relevance, by the way. It didn't envisage the rest of the West Bank becoming part of Jordan either. The fact remains that neither area was ever recognised as being part of sovereign Israel but rather both were occupied by Israel during the June 1967 war.
You don't seem to understand the status of the ICJ ruling either. It was an advisory ruling as to whether the contruction of the wall contravened internqtional law. That means that the court's decision is not binding on any party and does not of itself legally require action from any party to implement it. However, in the course of its ruling, it made a number of findings, including the finding that the OPT are occupied territories under international law. The fact that this was stated in the course of an advisory ruling rather than a binding one does not detract from its authoritative nature. The ICJ is the authorative judicial instance in questions of international law. Palmiro 16:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I dispute your remark as to POV. This was a link to a page that exists on Wikipedia. If you don't like the name of that page, you should seek to resolve that issue on that page, not by preventing other articles linking to it. Excess verbiage: "Palestinian Territories" is two words, "West Bank and Gaza Strip" five. Ambiguity: no more than for West Bank, on the basis of the entries here.
As for the 1947 partition plan, perhaps I should have been clearer. What I meant was that it doesn't have any bearing on whether EJ is occupied or not. You could certainly argue that it means the Palestinian 'right' to it (and incidentally that would also mean to Bethlehem) is less clearly established than in the case of the remainder of the territories, but that isn;t in my view an adequate reason for rejecting the use of the term Palestinian territories, which can be justified in three separate ways (1) the last state they were recognised as belonging to was the British mandate of Palestine (2) they lie within the historic region of Palestine (3) they are inhabited primarily by Palestinians (4) most importantly it's widely used and understood. But I really don't want to get into a row about terminology.
Would you accept as a compromise turning the existing West Bank and Gaza Strip article into a redirect to Palestinian territories and linking that in the text? As far as I can see that would cover your objections (subject to noone objecting on that article's talk page). Palmiro 19:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
OK. My objections to your edit stand. However, while I don't think this is a satisfactory approach, I'm not going to pursue the issue especially given the inadequate nature of the current PT article. Palmiro 19:57, 18 July 2005 (UTC) The DFLP did purposely commit terrorist attacks on israeli civilians during the second intifada. Even before the second intifada, the DFLP committed terrorist attacks on israeli civilians.-Dendoi
I don't understand you people... The DFLP carried out the Ma'alot massacre, they took explicit responsibility for it! So why can't it be stated clearly in the introductory paragraph, that the DFLP carried out terrorist attacks? It's a fact that can't be disputed. Please read the article and you'll agree that it should be there. The terrorist attacks are also mentioned in the article itself, and were never denied. I don't understand why you keep deleting the sentence "...and military organization, which carried out numerous terrorist attacks". Please explain it to me clearly; I think it must be there. Thanks. -- Gabi S. 07:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I see this article claiming that the ten point program calls for the two state solution. Hah. The progam calls for first a Palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza and then the Palestinian state to expand to replace Israel. Read the plan yourself. It also says that the PLO will strugle against any Palesitnian entity at the price of peace or recognition.-Dendoi December 19, 2006 Teusday 10:28 PM
The DFLPs goal is to replace Israel with a Communist Palestinian state. If you look at the map of palestine on their website, you would see that israel is not even on that map. That map does not show the border that distinguishes the West Bank from Israel and does not show the border that distinguishes Gaza from the Jewish state.-Dendoi
Please read WP:WTA. Note too, that this discussion ended without concensus on whether such a category was useful or not. In order to include it here, consensus from other editors must be gained. This article is already categorized under . The reason for this is that no one officially classified the DFLP today as a terrorist organization. Indeed, the article explains that its attacks on Israel are limited to military targets within the Green Line. In other words, this is a militant group, but not a terrorist group. Tiamut talk 15:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Ridiculous. We have a guideline called WP:WTA precisely because on man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. So please don't pretend that by providing one source (or even tens of sources) that designates some of the actions of this group as "terrorism" that the bar for including this group in the Category:Palestinian terrorism has been met. The category should not even exist in the first place, but just because it does, does not oblige us to use.
I can provide tens of sources that characterize this group as a "national liberation movement", "resistance movement", "freedom fighters" and we could create categories with those names as well. We don't do that here at Wikipedia though since it would lead to endless edit-warring across mutliple pages (as is happening here and at Fateh and elsewhere).
In any case, there is no consensus for including this category on this page. It is the editors adding something to the page who have to gain consensus for their edits. Since none has been attained, the cat shouldn't be here. Period. Tiamut talk 17:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't populate these categories, any of them. As I said above, categorization is generally not my thing. When articles on my watchlist have had these categories added to them and I've seen it, I've removed them. Otherwise, I have nothing to do with them since I think they are silly. Terrorism is a tactic, and should not be paired with national ideologies or national groups as though it were possible to essentialize people. It's not. If people insist on using a category with the word terrorism in it, I might accept Category:Use of terrorism as a tactic. Terrorism is a tactical means to end. No more, no less. It's not worse than any other form of violent intimidation. Unfortunately, its a much more emotive term as it is used colloquially and when paired with national groupings (as in "Palestinian terrorism") becomes borderline racist and de-humanizing. Tiamut talk 02:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Between Fatah and the rejectionists" it reads the DFLP "acted as a strong supporter of the 1974 Ten Point Program." The words "Ten Point Program" links to a website which might be malicious and I believe should be looked into. LoneWolf1992( talk) 01:48, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
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________________
There is a dead reference to the 10 point program. There is now an article that can be used in place of the dead external link. PLO's_Ten_Point_Program ~~
There are no citations for the claim that DFLP is MLMist. I have never seen anyone claim this with any evidence other than this article, which cites no evidence itself. If there is no evidence, this claim should be removed. 2601:642:C481:4640:EDCD:145B:D668:C976 ( talk) 03:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
In 2023, the DFLP, under Hawatmeh’s leadership, joined the Hamas-led offensive Operation Al-Aqsa Storm against Israel, attacking multiple targets with their paramilitary wing, the National Resistance Brigades. [1] The DFLP admitted to this involvement in their party news, Alhourriah, on October 8th. [2] Solidarityandfreedom ( talk) 00:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC) There is good evidence that the DFLP may have participated in the killing of civilians when Hamas invaded Israel. There is a video that suggests that. And I'm a supporter of Palestinians! But I believe in truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:E070:A850:A03B:6717:F4A1:B764 ( talk) 11:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
References
Pieter Cleppe wrote on Twitter:
Funds from Sweden's "Left Party"'s aid organization have gone to projects with links to the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), a group that participated in the Hamas terror raid on Israel.
The U.S. (and the EU) should now relist this group as a terrorist organisation, which it was until 1999:
/info/en/?search=Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine
Do You know is the "Left Party" called the social democrats or what kind of Marxian party is it, i.e. what is the name today? Kartasto ( talk) 05:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/global/664139/ 2.55.184.3 ( talk) 07:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Please edit heading of first section of History. "Formation as the PDFLP" should read "Formation as the DPFLP." Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas F. Scharff ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)