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There was quite a discussion a few months back and the Wiki decision was to not have the article by this title. Perhaps Democrat Party (Phrase) would be ok. Rjensen 09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: to avoid two conversations on the same topic, those wanting to comment on this should post at #Redirect Needed?, below. John Broughton | Talk 15:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, the point of calling it the Democrat Party is to emphasize the last three letters -- rat. Let's not pussyfoot around this and include it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.0.12 ( talk • contribs) 17:31, November 14, 2006
I have modified some of the edits by 71.139.0.12 for the following reasons:
The existence of "County Democrat" parties is currently mentioned at the end of the Grammaticality section. I don't think it should be mentioned in the lead for a few reasons:
Just wanted to lay that out as an explanation for edits I make to this effect. Kane5187 21:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Let me go through point by point the changes I made here:
All this changes are justified per WP:V, with the arguable exception of the local party thing, which is being addressed above. Kane5187 22:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, the point that Democrat is the noun is irrelevant, too -- we're talking about the phrase "Democrat Party" specifically, not every instance of the word "Democrat." It's just distracting. Kane5187 22:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Should this article be redirected to "Democratic Party (United States)? The wiki editors came to this consensus in June of 2006. Two months later, one of those editors, in defiance of the consensus reached in June, tried again, and created this "Democrat Party" wiki entry against the decision of the other editors. You can read about it here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Democrat Party (United States). I really think we should honor editors' decisions on the Wikipedia and not go off the reservation because we disagree with a consensus or we so earnestly want to push our own wee little political agenda.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.38.76 ( talk • contribs)
Provided this article refers to the "Democrat Party" as a slur used by conservatives, I see no reason why this should be deleted. In fact, re-directing it only serves to reinforce its use as an insult, since few people would know that "Democrat Party" is not just another term for the Democratic Party. That said, it is important to abide by decisions that have bee made. -- Tjss (Talk) 17:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The ruling before was as follows:
If the people who revived this topic want to take it to a Deletion Review, that is fine, but as for now, they are obliged, I think, to stand by the official Wiki ruling. ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Democrat Party (United States). )
This article is unnecessary and its inclusion on Wikipedia has been settled for the time being in the negative. Bjsiders 07:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The article says Senator Joe Lieberman,[12] a prominent Democrat who won reelection in 2006 as an independent, has used the term as well. The source for this is a blog, which says Joe's campaign just sent out a fundraising solicitation using the term 'the Democrat Party', which is a traditionally dismissive term and a code word to Republicans that Joe is with them.
I note the following problems:
In short, I don't think this should be in the article.
Moreover, the article says at the top: ... while other [Democrats] use [the phrase] on their web pages. That statement is unsupported by any sources - what is the basis for that sentence? John Broughton | Talk 19:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
OOps--it's true I pulled those [prior section - JB] at random without looking at them. Try these, which I think are real and which show lots of casual usage of the adjective in official names & announcements of local party organizations: Rjensen 04:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Rjensen - thanks for all the work to come up with the list of 22 usages at local party levels. My evaluation (best examples of your point are italicized):
In summary, what the pattern seems to be is (a) "Democrat Party" is often used with a noun following it: so "Democrat Party Central Committee" is common, but not "the County Democrat Party did X"; (b) Rarely does "Democrat Party" appear without "Democratic Party" also being used on the same page (this is somewhat of a corollary to (a); and (c) primary/preferred use of "Democrat Party" is ONLY a middle-of-the-county thing: Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia,
Or, to repeat my summary from above, which wasn't objected to (here's another chance!), with a few tweaks:
I recently ran a google search to find every incident of "Democrat Party" in wikipedia articles. What I found was that there are parties in many other countries (Thailand, UK, New Zealand, Sweden, etc.) with names like "Christian Democrat Party", "Social Democrat Party", Liberal Democrat Party, and so on; those produce a large number of "false positives". From which I conclude that comparing "Democrat candidate" to "Democratic candidate" via google seaching is absolutely NOT valid for determining anything about usage patterns - unless countries outside the U.S. are excluded. John Broughton | Talk 18:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Mostly though it's used by Republicans--in an noinjudgmental way these days, I think. Rjensen 23:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is LIpolitics.com being used as a source (from the CS Monitor article)? The actual website of the Nassau County Democratic Committee doesn't seem to use the term "Democrat Party," but uses " Democratic Party." The voter registration form linked to on their website uses "Democratic Party." Settler 07:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I submit that in Colorado the noun-as-adjective is part of everyone's vocabulary. The Dems here by the way did well last month, picking up a Congressional seat that had been held by the GOP. Rjensen 08:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This item from American Speech describes it as a new term, with a "heavy and concentrated barrage" of use in 1956, while noting prior history to 1946. It does confirm that the term was resented and opposed by Democrats, despite occasional use. I don't have time to put all of this in. Septentrionalis 00:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
If it is to be called the Democratic Party, then why aren't its members called Democratics? Members of the Republican Party are called Republicans, after all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.17.226.254 ( talk) 02:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
I don't think that is an apt comparison. "Democratics" would be a noun similar to "Republicans." While the word Jewish is an adjective, the word Democratic in this context would not be an adjective because it would be used as a name; therefore it is a noun. If they want to be called Democrats, the party should be the Democrat Party. Personally, I don't see anything hateful in using that phrase just like I don't see anything hateful about the word Jew. Any word can be twisted to sound hateful. Since this is Christmastime, we should all be happy and gay - or should we eliminate the word gay from everyday conversation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.17.226.254 ( talk • contribs)
11:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Democraticans "The Republican Party's members call themselves Republicans while the Democratic Party members calls themselves Democrats. This is what most likely caused the confusion.
If a group of Republicans are called a Republican Party by the same logic a group of Democratic Party members would be called Democraticans rather than Democrats. This does not work out because Democrats are named after a party, while Republicans are named after a style of government. The English language tends to steer away from longer words making Democratican overly long. Also, certain precedents like Theocrat, and Aristocrat existed before the coining of the word.
Res publica is a Latin phrase, made of res + publica, literally meaning "public thing" or "public matter". It is the origin of the word 'Republic', though translations vary widely according to the context.], and Democratic is derived from Democracy. The word democracy derives from the ancient Greek demokratia (δημοκρατία) (literally, rule by the people) formed from the roots demos (δημος), "people,"[5] "the mob, the many"[6] and kratos (κρατος) "rule" or "power"."
I keep putting it up and it keeps getting changed. I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican and I don't intend to change the article for political reasons. I put my entry up because it illustrates the issues of confusion. Democrat Party is used to be Pejorative, but to some extent there it is caused by simple confusion. I put references up. I went towards the root word, and it keeps getting changed. The fact is Democratic and Republican are both Latin/Greek words imported into English. The problem with English is its a combination of several languages making the use of various inflection prefixes correct in use. I said Democratican would make more sense, but on the other hand Democration would make even more since.
lemme illustrate
Demos Kratos Greek Demo Cratica Latin Democratic English Democrat(English in French style)Democratican(English in Latin style) Democration in linguistics the "tica" becomes sh noise. Like Deutsch(German) formerly Tudesico(Teutoniscus)(Teutonic) also, Politic-not Politican Politician
Res Publica Latin/Greek Republic English through French Republican jokingly Republic jokingly Republician
So, you can keep changing it. The ones that remove it are politicially motivated :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.135.161.88 ( talk • contribs) 03:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Can't believe this is a separate, independent article. Vidor 15:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Democratics would be an uncorrect term to use. Think about it, it sounds much better as Democrats rather than democratics.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.204.138.253 ( talk) 03:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This article refers to a misuse of the English language or even an idiom... more akin to a derogatory statement. If it's merged, it justifies a misuse of the "Democratic Party" just as "Republikan" now used to describe neo-conservatives or the Republican Party. That too would be an error. Noles1984 17:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I've started an RFD for Democrat Party (United States). As many who have read this page know, the phrase is not accurate and is mostly used by conservatives in a semi-slur and completely incorrect way. I see no reason why Democrat Party (United States) should link the Democratic Party (United States) given what I have read on this page. Any opinions can be expressed on the RFD page. Gdo01 18:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Made and reverted. This article is about the phrase the Democrat Party, not just the general use of Democrat as an adjective. Google is not, in any universe or by any standard, a collection of non-partisan links. "Democrat" used by opponents was not used as a slur adjective 200+ years ago, and that use that the opponents did use it in has nothing to do with "Issues of grammar," anyway. Settler 21:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC) ""This article is about a phrase and most of the sources listed point up the adjective-noun business, which should therefore be included. Alas, the Federalists did indeed use "Democrat" as a slur word in 1790s. Proof: During this period, the word "Democrat" was used by the Federalists as a term of extreme condemnation,: from Albert Beveridge Life of John Marshall (1919) Page 515 Rjensen 21:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
This is one really stupid edit war. I've protected the article. Work it out here. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 19:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The sentence of controversy (poorly written, but that's another story) is: The general issue is the use of the proper noun "Democrat" as an adjective, in place of the established adjective for the party, "Democratic." Thus "Kerry is a Democratic Senator" or "Senator Kerry is a Democrat," is standard American usage, while "Kerry is a Democrat Senator" is controversial.
The sentence is inaccurate on several fronts in my view. 1)The general issue is not whether this proper noun or any proper noun can be used as an adjective. By definition, a proper noun can't be used this way. 2)The "thus" is misplaced because it doesn't follow from the previous sentence. 3)On a general note, the issue is what is the correct name of -- the correct proper noun describing -- the United States Democratic Party. Readers will come here either because they are confused by some refering to the party as the "Democrat Party" and will want to know what's what; other readers, who know the party's real name, will come wanting a history or background as to why some don't pronounce the party's name properly. Neither of these readers is served by the two sentences in question, which suggest that the issue is a linguistic one. The linguistic issue is minor and is discussed later in the article. This early in the article, it is important to make clear what the party's real name is and why some have chosen not to call it by its real name. Including the controversial two sentences this early in the article only confuses readers. MiFeinberg 19:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
When this is unprotected, which I trust will be soon, the rest of the quotation which the OED cites is "a little farmer from South Carolina named Tillman...Party or not - yet it is this, and not output, on which the proximate value of silver depends." I find this sufficiently interesting to include in the footnote. 03:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a link should be added to the note about "Jew lawyer," which appears under the article "Jew." Profrif 07:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I haven't had time to read all of the comments made on this talk page. Please forgive me if the situation has already been resolved. The situation I refer to is about search results for the term "county democrat party". The number of "hits" should not be used to determine validity. Search engines commonly use a special dictionary to parse a query down to the "root" of a word. Since the word "democrat" is the root of the word "democratic", hits would be returned for both forms of the word. Unless the search engine offers an "Advanced Search" function where an "Exact Match" option can be selected, the search engine will most likely perform a "root" word search. Just my two cents worth. Your hard work and diligence on the topic is commendable! Kudos to all.-- Gpmiller432 01:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Recently, User:Griot removed two passages I think should be included under the edit summary, "edits for "hits"". The first deals with non-disparaging uses of the term by the Democratic party themselves:
and the other about historical conflicts over party-names:
All of this information is cited, and I feel relevant. I don't want to act unilaterally and spark another edit war on these already hostile page, so is there consensus for this information's replacement? --
Ybbor
Talk
01:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Or is it just an error that's become an ingrained bad habit, like "nucular"? Considering that members of the Democratic Party are known as Democrats, thus making it a party of Democrats, it's easy to see how this phrase could arise. Because of this, I think the "Republic Party" epithet isn't a good comparison, since members of the Republican Party are known as Republicans, not "Republics". Perhaps it's actually by analogy to the Republican Party that "Democrat Party" has seen such widespread usage. -- Zantolak 08:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
In addition to the modern-day concerted effort by some opposition partisans to re-brand the Democratic Party as Democrat Party, there's also a longlived, non-partisan, and definitely non-standard tradition for the name Democrat Party. However, the most prominent use of the term today is of a partisan stripe (or swipe). RickDC ( talk) 03:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Doonesburydemocratparty.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 06:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You'e right that "communistc" and "socialistic" are adjectives--but so are "communist" and "socialist." They are not simply nouns pressed into use as adjectives, as "democrat" is. RickDC ( talk) 03:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it's because I'm not from the US, but this whole thing strikes me as a rather silly complaint by the Democrats played on by the Republicans.
Here in the UK we have a party that calls itself " Liberal Democrats", and everyone, including members of the party itself, uses phrases like " Nick Clegg is the Liberal Democrat leader" (at least until their next leadership election), and I'm not even sure if "Liberal Democratic" is in any way official, though one of the predecessor parties was very much the " Social Democratic Party" and "Social Democrat" was a widely used adjective.
Why are Democrats so pedantic about this point? Timrollpickering ( talk) 13:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To answer this last point, we have the Governor of Florida (R), going out of his way to be nice to Senator Nelson (D-FL), and saying he "happens to be a Democratic" NYT, March 7, 2008 Staking out Positions on a Revote in Florida and Michigan. Implies he thinks Sen. Nelson cares. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
if the Republicans are going to remove two letters "from the right" of the word "The Democratic Party" and make it "The Democrat Party". Why don't Democrats remove two letter "from the left" of "The Republican Party" and use the phrase "The Publican Party". This would me a more artful phrase change and would connect the make them publicans. It would also stand out, and when asked, Democrats can joke, "they way are going to attack us from the right, we are going to attack them from the left", and perhaps it would seem so ridicules to the people of the USA, that Republicans would simply stop to attempted verbal slur and go back to using proper English.
Cheeers Webulite 21:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
bullcrap. Macarion ( talk) 15:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
To quote the article: "Aesthetic judgments are subjective, of course, but 'Democrat Party' is jarring verging on ugly. It fairly screams 'rat'."[2]"
I would also like to add to the article that the last four letters of 'Republican" are "I Can". This is a fairly obvious snub to the Democrat party by further stereotyping them as the "welfare-state" party as they are always branded. ie: Democrats, being "rats", steal from producers while Republicans, the party of "I can", are supposedly self-starters. Perhaps we should even create a separate article titled " Republ-I-Can"? I feel this will further illustrate the injustice purveyed by Republicans against a party who's never painted their opponents in such an ugly light. And just for the record, before you start accusing me of a bias, I am not a member of either party, so I have no special interest in this to help Democrats... I'm Libertarian. We've also been slandered in ads that would show the word "Libertarian", then fade out the letters "Libert" so that it left "Arian"[sic] on the screen. This was an obvious attempt to associate us with Timothy McVeigh types, and it cost us a majority of elections ever since. 66.215.216.61 ( talk) 04:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
the issue as i see it is: how do people of one political party refer to themselves, individually or collectively, either in an official manner (organization documents) or unofficially? and how do their opponents, and/or the general public, refer to them? and how does the news media report on this? there is no logic to political party names, just like names of music groups. but this article is referring to a very real and documented phenomenon, where one party is altering the way they refer to another, where its not reciprocal and appears to have a political motive. that alone is enough to make it an article on its own. the debate about "why shouldnt the democrats be called the democrat party?" is a political ploy; if you can define your opponent on your terms, not theirs, you weaken their position. whether you approve or not, thats what this appears to be, and its sourced adequately. just my 2 Lincoln cents on it Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 20:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
This article looks pretty good on the whole, but there's a significant issue with maintaining a neutral point of view. I think the problem is mostly with the lead section, but there's probably a need for a bit more in the article's body, too.
Basically, there are uses of the term that are intended to be derogatory, and uses of the term that are innocent mistakes, and uses of the term that are official names of local organizations. This article notes that mainstream media occasionally uses the term; in addition, the Citizendium article on the same topic notes that local party chapters and local usage in various places in the U.S. legitimize the name.
The lead section should express all of these elements, in order to be appropriately neutral. And we should probably add the local usage stuff into the article body, too.
(As a side note, doesn't Frank Luntz have something to do with the modern, strategic use of the term? If so, should he be mentioned in the article? Anybody know, or know of a good source?) - Pete ( talk) 14:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
In the absence of any specific dispute, please don't continue to incorrectly place the NPOV tag. See WP:DRIVEBY for futher details, but in particular note the lead which states:
Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.
You have not tied this to any specific policy violation, have not even proposed any specific changes, and rather than as a last resort, your first action (well, only action really) was to place the tag. -- Loonymonkey ( talk) 20:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
A quote from Obama was added where he used "Democrat and Republican," omitting the use of the word "party." I'm not sure that's relevant to the article, given that the phrase "Democrat Party" is what the article is about? Шизомби ( talk) 23:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
It's probably hopeless to have any sort of rational discussion as it's too politically charged of an issue, but given the documentation above of use by Democrats, the flat insistence that "the use is overwhelmingly by Republicans" is demonstrably false. I made some edits to clarify this and they got reverted with no real justification. Partially this is indicative of the editorial style that's become endemic on Wikipedia of late - just revert any edit you don't like, no reason needed, no discussion, just blunt insistence that the article can't change from its current state. For the record, I'm not a Republican, but this page seems a bit silly and I'd prefer to see it deleted, but failing that, it should at least attempt to be factual and present a neutral point of view. The term "Democrat Party" is often used by Democrats, and even when it's used by conservatives there's no basis for the speculation that it's intended to be insulting/pejorative/demeaning (not sure what the right adjective is here). Someidiot ( talk) 23:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
The linguistic equivalent of "Democrat party" is not "Republic Party", that would be the linguistic analog of "Democracy Party". A Democrat party would be a party comprising or promoting Democrats. The Republican Party, on the other hand, is a party comprising Republicans, not Republics. That is why it is called the Republican Party, because it is a party of Republicans. Mazzula ( talk) 01:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, for the past week the phrase "The key issue is the use of the noun "Democrat" as an adjective instead of the use of "Democratic." Thus "Kerry is a Democratic Senator" or "Senator Kerry is a Democrat," is standard, while "Kerry is a Democrat Senator" is controversial." has been taken out and put back in too many times to count (although if one were to count in would be 18 times, and be the reason for every single edit this week.) We need to come to some consensus about this. I haven't participated in this revert war, but it seems to me like the sentence is perfectly acceptable. In any case, as an attempt at compromise, would someone like to keep the sentence in but have it forever labeled with something like citation needed or who?? It's not really what the templates are there for, and it would be far better to have an agreed upon version, but we can't just keep reverting each others edits. Would those taking it out like to summarize what they think to be the key issue if not using the noun as an adjective? -- Ybbor Talk Survey! 21:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I object to this sentence because of the term "key issue." The issue here is misuse, deliberate or otherwise, of the Democratic Party's name. It's clear that this misuse comes from two sources: 1)Opponents of the Democratic Party who want to criticize the party by deliberately misusing its real name, and 2)a general trend in linguistics (as the article notes) in which people sometimes substitute nouns for adjectives. I believe that the first use -- that of the party's opponents mispronouncing its name -- is the primary cause for the use of the term "Democrat Party." Claiming that the "key issue" is a grammatical one is incorrect. The grammar issue is discussed in this article. That aspect of the question -- a small one -- does not belong in the first paragraph. Hashaw 20:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not the "key" issue, and no source says so; but the use of "Democrat Senator" is in the same category - and just as much an insult - as the use of "Democrat Party". Can we agree on language that says as much?
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson
19:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC) 19:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is in exactly the same category. And should be no more nor less offensive. It may be intended to somehow tarnish the word. After all, it is a political strategy to try to create positive or negative associations with the words politicians use to describe themselves, but the puzzle is how it accomplishes this. After all, it wouldn't be an insult to refer to Sen. Olympia Snowe as a "woman Senator" rather than as a "feminine Senator". So it isn't using a noun attributively that creates the insult, it must be something else. The interesting thing to me, documented in the article as with the Chris Matthews rant, is that not only are Democrats insulted by the word "Democrat", but they will insist that the word is an insult and can only be interpreted as an insult. Republicans don't have to tarnish the word, because Democrats themselves will insist so stridently that it is insulting with no other provocation than that the noun is used attributively. And Chris Matthews is (no offense) a Democrat. Mazzula ( talk) 01:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
There was quite a discussion a few months back and the Wiki decision was to not have the article by this title. Perhaps Democrat Party (Phrase) would be ok. Rjensen 09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: to avoid two conversations on the same topic, those wanting to comment on this should post at #Redirect Needed?, below. John Broughton | Talk 15:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, the point of calling it the Democrat Party is to emphasize the last three letters -- rat. Let's not pussyfoot around this and include it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.0.12 ( talk • contribs) 17:31, November 14, 2006
I have modified some of the edits by 71.139.0.12 for the following reasons:
The existence of "County Democrat" parties is currently mentioned at the end of the Grammaticality section. I don't think it should be mentioned in the lead for a few reasons:
Just wanted to lay that out as an explanation for edits I make to this effect. Kane5187 21:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Let me go through point by point the changes I made here:
All this changes are justified per WP:V, with the arguable exception of the local party thing, which is being addressed above. Kane5187 22:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, the point that Democrat is the noun is irrelevant, too -- we're talking about the phrase "Democrat Party" specifically, not every instance of the word "Democrat." It's just distracting. Kane5187 22:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Should this article be redirected to "Democratic Party (United States)? The wiki editors came to this consensus in June of 2006. Two months later, one of those editors, in defiance of the consensus reached in June, tried again, and created this "Democrat Party" wiki entry against the decision of the other editors. You can read about it here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Democrat Party (United States). I really think we should honor editors' decisions on the Wikipedia and not go off the reservation because we disagree with a consensus or we so earnestly want to push our own wee little political agenda.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.38.76 ( talk • contribs)
Provided this article refers to the "Democrat Party" as a slur used by conservatives, I see no reason why this should be deleted. In fact, re-directing it only serves to reinforce its use as an insult, since few people would know that "Democrat Party" is not just another term for the Democratic Party. That said, it is important to abide by decisions that have bee made. -- Tjss (Talk) 17:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The ruling before was as follows:
If the people who revived this topic want to take it to a Deletion Review, that is fine, but as for now, they are obliged, I think, to stand by the official Wiki ruling. ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Democrat Party (United States). )
This article is unnecessary and its inclusion on Wikipedia has been settled for the time being in the negative. Bjsiders 07:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The article says Senator Joe Lieberman,[12] a prominent Democrat who won reelection in 2006 as an independent, has used the term as well. The source for this is a blog, which says Joe's campaign just sent out a fundraising solicitation using the term 'the Democrat Party', which is a traditionally dismissive term and a code word to Republicans that Joe is with them.
I note the following problems:
In short, I don't think this should be in the article.
Moreover, the article says at the top: ... while other [Democrats] use [the phrase] on their web pages. That statement is unsupported by any sources - what is the basis for that sentence? John Broughton | Talk 19:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
OOps--it's true I pulled those [prior section - JB] at random without looking at them. Try these, which I think are real and which show lots of casual usage of the adjective in official names & announcements of local party organizations: Rjensen 04:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Rjensen - thanks for all the work to come up with the list of 22 usages at local party levels. My evaluation (best examples of your point are italicized):
In summary, what the pattern seems to be is (a) "Democrat Party" is often used with a noun following it: so "Democrat Party Central Committee" is common, but not "the County Democrat Party did X"; (b) Rarely does "Democrat Party" appear without "Democratic Party" also being used on the same page (this is somewhat of a corollary to (a); and (c) primary/preferred use of "Democrat Party" is ONLY a middle-of-the-county thing: Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia,
Or, to repeat my summary from above, which wasn't objected to (here's another chance!), with a few tweaks:
I recently ran a google search to find every incident of "Democrat Party" in wikipedia articles. What I found was that there are parties in many other countries (Thailand, UK, New Zealand, Sweden, etc.) with names like "Christian Democrat Party", "Social Democrat Party", Liberal Democrat Party, and so on; those produce a large number of "false positives". From which I conclude that comparing "Democrat candidate" to "Democratic candidate" via google seaching is absolutely NOT valid for determining anything about usage patterns - unless countries outside the U.S. are excluded. John Broughton | Talk 18:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Mostly though it's used by Republicans--in an noinjudgmental way these days, I think. Rjensen 23:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is LIpolitics.com being used as a source (from the CS Monitor article)? The actual website of the Nassau County Democratic Committee doesn't seem to use the term "Democrat Party," but uses " Democratic Party." The voter registration form linked to on their website uses "Democratic Party." Settler 07:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I submit that in Colorado the noun-as-adjective is part of everyone's vocabulary. The Dems here by the way did well last month, picking up a Congressional seat that had been held by the GOP. Rjensen 08:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This item from American Speech describes it as a new term, with a "heavy and concentrated barrage" of use in 1956, while noting prior history to 1946. It does confirm that the term was resented and opposed by Democrats, despite occasional use. I don't have time to put all of this in. Septentrionalis 00:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
If it is to be called the Democratic Party, then why aren't its members called Democratics? Members of the Republican Party are called Republicans, after all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.17.226.254 ( talk) 02:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
I don't think that is an apt comparison. "Democratics" would be a noun similar to "Republicans." While the word Jewish is an adjective, the word Democratic in this context would not be an adjective because it would be used as a name; therefore it is a noun. If they want to be called Democrats, the party should be the Democrat Party. Personally, I don't see anything hateful in using that phrase just like I don't see anything hateful about the word Jew. Any word can be twisted to sound hateful. Since this is Christmastime, we should all be happy and gay - or should we eliminate the word gay from everyday conversation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.17.226.254 ( talk • contribs)
11:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Democraticans "The Republican Party's members call themselves Republicans while the Democratic Party members calls themselves Democrats. This is what most likely caused the confusion.
If a group of Republicans are called a Republican Party by the same logic a group of Democratic Party members would be called Democraticans rather than Democrats. This does not work out because Democrats are named after a party, while Republicans are named after a style of government. The English language tends to steer away from longer words making Democratican overly long. Also, certain precedents like Theocrat, and Aristocrat existed before the coining of the word.
Res publica is a Latin phrase, made of res + publica, literally meaning "public thing" or "public matter". It is the origin of the word 'Republic', though translations vary widely according to the context.], and Democratic is derived from Democracy. The word democracy derives from the ancient Greek demokratia (δημοκρατία) (literally, rule by the people) formed from the roots demos (δημος), "people,"[5] "the mob, the many"[6] and kratos (κρατος) "rule" or "power"."
I keep putting it up and it keeps getting changed. I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican and I don't intend to change the article for political reasons. I put my entry up because it illustrates the issues of confusion. Democrat Party is used to be Pejorative, but to some extent there it is caused by simple confusion. I put references up. I went towards the root word, and it keeps getting changed. The fact is Democratic and Republican are both Latin/Greek words imported into English. The problem with English is its a combination of several languages making the use of various inflection prefixes correct in use. I said Democratican would make more sense, but on the other hand Democration would make even more since.
lemme illustrate
Demos Kratos Greek Demo Cratica Latin Democratic English Democrat(English in French style)Democratican(English in Latin style) Democration in linguistics the "tica" becomes sh noise. Like Deutsch(German) formerly Tudesico(Teutoniscus)(Teutonic) also, Politic-not Politican Politician
Res Publica Latin/Greek Republic English through French Republican jokingly Republic jokingly Republician
So, you can keep changing it. The ones that remove it are politicially motivated :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.135.161.88 ( talk • contribs) 03:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Can't believe this is a separate, independent article. Vidor 15:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Democratics would be an uncorrect term to use. Think about it, it sounds much better as Democrats rather than democratics.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.204.138.253 ( talk) 03:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This article refers to a misuse of the English language or even an idiom... more akin to a derogatory statement. If it's merged, it justifies a misuse of the "Democratic Party" just as "Republikan" now used to describe neo-conservatives or the Republican Party. That too would be an error. Noles1984 17:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I've started an RFD for Democrat Party (United States). As many who have read this page know, the phrase is not accurate and is mostly used by conservatives in a semi-slur and completely incorrect way. I see no reason why Democrat Party (United States) should link the Democratic Party (United States) given what I have read on this page. Any opinions can be expressed on the RFD page. Gdo01 18:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Made and reverted. This article is about the phrase the Democrat Party, not just the general use of Democrat as an adjective. Google is not, in any universe or by any standard, a collection of non-partisan links. "Democrat" used by opponents was not used as a slur adjective 200+ years ago, and that use that the opponents did use it in has nothing to do with "Issues of grammar," anyway. Settler 21:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC) ""This article is about a phrase and most of the sources listed point up the adjective-noun business, which should therefore be included. Alas, the Federalists did indeed use "Democrat" as a slur word in 1790s. Proof: During this period, the word "Democrat" was used by the Federalists as a term of extreme condemnation,: from Albert Beveridge Life of John Marshall (1919) Page 515 Rjensen 21:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
This is one really stupid edit war. I've protected the article. Work it out here. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 19:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The sentence of controversy (poorly written, but that's another story) is: The general issue is the use of the proper noun "Democrat" as an adjective, in place of the established adjective for the party, "Democratic." Thus "Kerry is a Democratic Senator" or "Senator Kerry is a Democrat," is standard American usage, while "Kerry is a Democrat Senator" is controversial.
The sentence is inaccurate on several fronts in my view. 1)The general issue is not whether this proper noun or any proper noun can be used as an adjective. By definition, a proper noun can't be used this way. 2)The "thus" is misplaced because it doesn't follow from the previous sentence. 3)On a general note, the issue is what is the correct name of -- the correct proper noun describing -- the United States Democratic Party. Readers will come here either because they are confused by some refering to the party as the "Democrat Party" and will want to know what's what; other readers, who know the party's real name, will come wanting a history or background as to why some don't pronounce the party's name properly. Neither of these readers is served by the two sentences in question, which suggest that the issue is a linguistic one. The linguistic issue is minor and is discussed later in the article. This early in the article, it is important to make clear what the party's real name is and why some have chosen not to call it by its real name. Including the controversial two sentences this early in the article only confuses readers. MiFeinberg 19:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
When this is unprotected, which I trust will be soon, the rest of the quotation which the OED cites is "a little farmer from South Carolina named Tillman...Party or not - yet it is this, and not output, on which the proximate value of silver depends." I find this sufficiently interesting to include in the footnote. 03:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a link should be added to the note about "Jew lawyer," which appears under the article "Jew." Profrif 07:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I haven't had time to read all of the comments made on this talk page. Please forgive me if the situation has already been resolved. The situation I refer to is about search results for the term "county democrat party". The number of "hits" should not be used to determine validity. Search engines commonly use a special dictionary to parse a query down to the "root" of a word. Since the word "democrat" is the root of the word "democratic", hits would be returned for both forms of the word. Unless the search engine offers an "Advanced Search" function where an "Exact Match" option can be selected, the search engine will most likely perform a "root" word search. Just my two cents worth. Your hard work and diligence on the topic is commendable! Kudos to all.-- Gpmiller432 01:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Recently, User:Griot removed two passages I think should be included under the edit summary, "edits for "hits"". The first deals with non-disparaging uses of the term by the Democratic party themselves:
and the other about historical conflicts over party-names:
All of this information is cited, and I feel relevant. I don't want to act unilaterally and spark another edit war on these already hostile page, so is there consensus for this information's replacement? --
Ybbor
Talk
01:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Or is it just an error that's become an ingrained bad habit, like "nucular"? Considering that members of the Democratic Party are known as Democrats, thus making it a party of Democrats, it's easy to see how this phrase could arise. Because of this, I think the "Republic Party" epithet isn't a good comparison, since members of the Republican Party are known as Republicans, not "Republics". Perhaps it's actually by analogy to the Republican Party that "Democrat Party" has seen such widespread usage. -- Zantolak 08:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
In addition to the modern-day concerted effort by some opposition partisans to re-brand the Democratic Party as Democrat Party, there's also a longlived, non-partisan, and definitely non-standard tradition for the name Democrat Party. However, the most prominent use of the term today is of a partisan stripe (or swipe). RickDC ( talk) 03:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Doonesburydemocratparty.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 06:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You'e right that "communistc" and "socialistic" are adjectives--but so are "communist" and "socialist." They are not simply nouns pressed into use as adjectives, as "democrat" is. RickDC ( talk) 03:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it's because I'm not from the US, but this whole thing strikes me as a rather silly complaint by the Democrats played on by the Republicans.
Here in the UK we have a party that calls itself " Liberal Democrats", and everyone, including members of the party itself, uses phrases like " Nick Clegg is the Liberal Democrat leader" (at least until their next leadership election), and I'm not even sure if "Liberal Democratic" is in any way official, though one of the predecessor parties was very much the " Social Democratic Party" and "Social Democrat" was a widely used adjective.
Why are Democrats so pedantic about this point? Timrollpickering ( talk) 13:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To answer this last point, we have the Governor of Florida (R), going out of his way to be nice to Senator Nelson (D-FL), and saying he "happens to be a Democratic" NYT, March 7, 2008 Staking out Positions on a Revote in Florida and Michigan. Implies he thinks Sen. Nelson cares. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
if the Republicans are going to remove two letters "from the right" of the word "The Democratic Party" and make it "The Democrat Party". Why don't Democrats remove two letter "from the left" of "The Republican Party" and use the phrase "The Publican Party". This would me a more artful phrase change and would connect the make them publicans. It would also stand out, and when asked, Democrats can joke, "they way are going to attack us from the right, we are going to attack them from the left", and perhaps it would seem so ridicules to the people of the USA, that Republicans would simply stop to attempted verbal slur and go back to using proper English.
Cheeers Webulite 21:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
bullcrap. Macarion ( talk) 15:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
To quote the article: "Aesthetic judgments are subjective, of course, but 'Democrat Party' is jarring verging on ugly. It fairly screams 'rat'."[2]"
I would also like to add to the article that the last four letters of 'Republican" are "I Can". This is a fairly obvious snub to the Democrat party by further stereotyping them as the "welfare-state" party as they are always branded. ie: Democrats, being "rats", steal from producers while Republicans, the party of "I can", are supposedly self-starters. Perhaps we should even create a separate article titled " Republ-I-Can"? I feel this will further illustrate the injustice purveyed by Republicans against a party who's never painted their opponents in such an ugly light. And just for the record, before you start accusing me of a bias, I am not a member of either party, so I have no special interest in this to help Democrats... I'm Libertarian. We've also been slandered in ads that would show the word "Libertarian", then fade out the letters "Libert" so that it left "Arian"[sic] on the screen. This was an obvious attempt to associate us with Timothy McVeigh types, and it cost us a majority of elections ever since. 66.215.216.61 ( talk) 04:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
the issue as i see it is: how do people of one political party refer to themselves, individually or collectively, either in an official manner (organization documents) or unofficially? and how do their opponents, and/or the general public, refer to them? and how does the news media report on this? there is no logic to political party names, just like names of music groups. but this article is referring to a very real and documented phenomenon, where one party is altering the way they refer to another, where its not reciprocal and appears to have a political motive. that alone is enough to make it an article on its own. the debate about "why shouldnt the democrats be called the democrat party?" is a political ploy; if you can define your opponent on your terms, not theirs, you weaken their position. whether you approve or not, thats what this appears to be, and its sourced adequately. just my 2 Lincoln cents on it Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 20:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
This article looks pretty good on the whole, but there's a significant issue with maintaining a neutral point of view. I think the problem is mostly with the lead section, but there's probably a need for a bit more in the article's body, too.
Basically, there are uses of the term that are intended to be derogatory, and uses of the term that are innocent mistakes, and uses of the term that are official names of local organizations. This article notes that mainstream media occasionally uses the term; in addition, the Citizendium article on the same topic notes that local party chapters and local usage in various places in the U.S. legitimize the name.
The lead section should express all of these elements, in order to be appropriately neutral. And we should probably add the local usage stuff into the article body, too.
(As a side note, doesn't Frank Luntz have something to do with the modern, strategic use of the term? If so, should he be mentioned in the article? Anybody know, or know of a good source?) - Pete ( talk) 14:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
In the absence of any specific dispute, please don't continue to incorrectly place the NPOV tag. See WP:DRIVEBY for futher details, but in particular note the lead which states:
Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.
You have not tied this to any specific policy violation, have not even proposed any specific changes, and rather than as a last resort, your first action (well, only action really) was to place the tag. -- Loonymonkey ( talk) 20:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
A quote from Obama was added where he used "Democrat and Republican," omitting the use of the word "party." I'm not sure that's relevant to the article, given that the phrase "Democrat Party" is what the article is about? Шизомби ( talk) 23:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
It's probably hopeless to have any sort of rational discussion as it's too politically charged of an issue, but given the documentation above of use by Democrats, the flat insistence that "the use is overwhelmingly by Republicans" is demonstrably false. I made some edits to clarify this and they got reverted with no real justification. Partially this is indicative of the editorial style that's become endemic on Wikipedia of late - just revert any edit you don't like, no reason needed, no discussion, just blunt insistence that the article can't change from its current state. For the record, I'm not a Republican, but this page seems a bit silly and I'd prefer to see it deleted, but failing that, it should at least attempt to be factual and present a neutral point of view. The term "Democrat Party" is often used by Democrats, and even when it's used by conservatives there's no basis for the speculation that it's intended to be insulting/pejorative/demeaning (not sure what the right adjective is here). Someidiot ( talk) 23:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
The linguistic equivalent of "Democrat party" is not "Republic Party", that would be the linguistic analog of "Democracy Party". A Democrat party would be a party comprising or promoting Democrats. The Republican Party, on the other hand, is a party comprising Republicans, not Republics. That is why it is called the Republican Party, because it is a party of Republicans. Mazzula ( talk) 01:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, for the past week the phrase "The key issue is the use of the noun "Democrat" as an adjective instead of the use of "Democratic." Thus "Kerry is a Democratic Senator" or "Senator Kerry is a Democrat," is standard, while "Kerry is a Democrat Senator" is controversial." has been taken out and put back in too many times to count (although if one were to count in would be 18 times, and be the reason for every single edit this week.) We need to come to some consensus about this. I haven't participated in this revert war, but it seems to me like the sentence is perfectly acceptable. In any case, as an attempt at compromise, would someone like to keep the sentence in but have it forever labeled with something like citation needed or who?? It's not really what the templates are there for, and it would be far better to have an agreed upon version, but we can't just keep reverting each others edits. Would those taking it out like to summarize what they think to be the key issue if not using the noun as an adjective? -- Ybbor Talk Survey! 21:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I object to this sentence because of the term "key issue." The issue here is misuse, deliberate or otherwise, of the Democratic Party's name. It's clear that this misuse comes from two sources: 1)Opponents of the Democratic Party who want to criticize the party by deliberately misusing its real name, and 2)a general trend in linguistics (as the article notes) in which people sometimes substitute nouns for adjectives. I believe that the first use -- that of the party's opponents mispronouncing its name -- is the primary cause for the use of the term "Democrat Party." Claiming that the "key issue" is a grammatical one is incorrect. The grammar issue is discussed in this article. That aspect of the question -- a small one -- does not belong in the first paragraph. Hashaw 20:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not the "key" issue, and no source says so; but the use of "Democrat Senator" is in the same category - and just as much an insult - as the use of "Democrat Party". Can we agree on language that says as much?
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson
19:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC) 19:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is in exactly the same category. And should be no more nor less offensive. It may be intended to somehow tarnish the word. After all, it is a political strategy to try to create positive or negative associations with the words politicians use to describe themselves, but the puzzle is how it accomplishes this. After all, it wouldn't be an insult to refer to Sen. Olympia Snowe as a "woman Senator" rather than as a "feminine Senator". So it isn't using a noun attributively that creates the insult, it must be something else. The interesting thing to me, documented in the article as with the Chris Matthews rant, is that not only are Democrats insulted by the word "Democrat", but they will insist that the word is an insult and can only be interpreted as an insult. Republicans don't have to tarnish the word, because Democrats themselves will insist so stridently that it is insulting with no other provocation than that the noun is used attributively. And Chris Matthews is (no offense) a Democrat. Mazzula ( talk) 01:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)