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This article is piecemeal, poorly written and frequently wrong, lacking structure, clarity, and coherence. It needs to be abandoned and restarted. This, of course, is not possible unless a consensus forms in favour of deleting almost all the material currently included in the article. Until that consensus forms it is not possible to begin to create a worthwhile encyclopedia entry on this topic. Mtevfrog ( talk) 22:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the problem is that deconstructionist analysis of texts has nothing to do with science, and should be viewed as something on par with creationist analysis of the origins of life, or astrological analysis of the future events. It uses a great lot of made-up words to obscure the embarrassing truth, that it has nothing to say. Obviously, deconstructivists won't ever admit that, and will vandalize any proper description of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.190.70.129 ( talk) 08:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is written in, obscure, often impenetrable prose. It therefor conforms with all current international guidelines emanating from The Guild of Postmodernist Artists and Writers. Prunesqualer ( talk) 11:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. This article definately needs a re-write. In it's current form, it is completely incomprehensable. Wikipedia's purpose is to educate. Anyone reading this article who isn't a complete master of the subject will have absolutely no idea what the hell this article is taking about. Can we please make it so that someone who hasn't written papers on this subject will actually know what we're talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The JMO Man ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The do boy initially resisted granting to his approach the overarching name "deconstruction," on the grounds that it was a precise technical term that could not be used to characterise his work generally. Nevertheless, he eventually accepted that the term had come into common use to refer to his textual approach, and Derrida himself increasingly began to use the term in this more general way.
Do boy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.48.163 ( talk) 23:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Folks, I'm kind of an outsider to this whole discussion, but I have valiantly tried to understand what this is all about and have utterly failed. Is this because the term is just indefinable, or is it because the article is just so laden with gobbledygook that only people "in the profession" can figure it out? If it's the latter then this whole thing needs a drastic rewrite, because it's incomprehensible to the average Joe, I suspect deliberately so. Thant’s fine for some English journal, but not for Wikipedia. Andacar ( talk) 07:15, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
This article has won the internet. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
158.169.131.14 (
talk)
12:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The following was in the section on Criticism in Popular Media but it really doesn't belong there: " Native American novelist Gerald Vizenor claims an extensive debt to deconstructionist ideas in attacking essentialist notions of race." Lawyer2b ( talk) 13:48, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I've just set the assessment to mid importance for the Literature wikiproject. I'm unsure if the importance is actually high as for Philosophy.-- Sum ( talk) 00:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
The first two sentences are terrible. They tell us little and are poorly constructed. I won't risk doing it myself, only to have it redacted in 20 seconds. Someone who's allowed to contribute, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.27.121.68 ( talk) 17:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I completely agree. This is a poor introduction and doesn't really explain anything, in addition to sounding overtly esoteric. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.216.35 ( talk) 22:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but I can't make head nor tail of the introduction. I can't imagine anything being summed up so badly in two sentences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.85.248 ( talk) 20:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I found this from a quick Googling. I can't say it's the clearest prose I've read, but it gives me a much better idea than this article:
"A term tied very closely to postmodernism, deconstructionism is a challenge to the attempt to establish any ultimate or secure meaning in a text. Basing itself in language analysis, it seeks to "deconstruct" the ideological biases (gender, racial, economic, political, cultural) and traditional assumptions that infect all histories, as well as philosophical and religious "truths." Deconstructionism is based on the premise that much of human history, in trying to understand, and then define, reality has led to various forms of domination - of nature, of people of color, of the poor, of homosexuals, etc. Like postmodernism, deconstructionism finds concrete experience more valid than abstract ideas and, therefore, refutes any attempts to produce a history, or a truth. In other words, the multiplicities and contingencies of human experience necessarily bring knowledge down to the local and specific level, and challenge the tendency to centralize power through the claims of an ultimate truth which must be accepted or obeyed by all." -- http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/decon-body.html
Is this a reasonable intro? I'm not going to edit the page myself because I'm in no position to say whether it's accurate. 66.44.24.184 ( talk) 22:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC) - Brian
"It is difficult to define formally "Deconstruction" within Western philosophy."? Why not "It is difficult to formally define 'Deconstruction'"? Why within western philosophy? Does it become easy with reference to Lao Tzu? TheAnonymousHamster ( talk) 04:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
While we're at it.... What is the sentence "Most criticism of deconstruction is difficult to read and summarise.", which reads as a dig at critics of deconstruction, doing in the Definition section at all? TheAnonymousHamster ( talk) 21:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
It's difficult to define "deconstruction" for the same reason that it's difficult to define "art". (That doesn't mean deconstruction is art, but perhaps it is an art). We generally recognize art when we see it, but we don't have a general algorithm which will produce it. (We have algorithms that can produce artifacts recognizeable as art, but not ones that capture all and any art, or that decide art from non-art). Deconstruction basically means to find some interpretation for some piece of text, other than what the actually says. If it has various qualities like being sublimely clever, funny, or somehow enligthening or stimulating, then the intellectuals will point at it and call it a fine work of deconstruction. The nice thing is that if you have a talent for interpreting some text in wacky ways, you don't have to study anything about deconstruction to do it, or justify what you are doing in any way. Which is the essence of true liberal arts: avoiding anything that smells like what employed people do. And so, the only small problem with that deconstructionist interpretation is that the text doesn't really say that.-- 70.79.96.174 ( talk) 04:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
"Deconstruction basically means to find some interpretation for some piece of text, other than what the actually says." That is the clearest definition of this topic that I have ever seen. If the whole article was replaced by that sentence, it would lead to greater understanding for the average wikipedia user. Jimhsu77479 ( talk) 22:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
yeah! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.60.125.88 (
talk)
13:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The current definition "Deconstruction is a term that French philosopher Jacques Derrida introduced..." does not say what the term means. What happened to the Wikipedia definition shown by Google: "Deconstruction is an approach, introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida, which rigorously pursues the meaning of a text to the point of undoing the oppositions on which it is apparently founded, and to the point of showing that those foundations are irreducibly complex, unstable or ..."? That one at least gave a meaning to the word. PlutarcoNaranjo ( talk) 19:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree with PlutarcoNaranjo on that point. It occurs to me that in the opening definition, we might attain that clarity for the uninitiated reader by enumerating three or four ways to "define" deconstruction. A difficulty in doing this, however, would be an overlap with the section on Derrida's negative descriptions. This revision I'm suggesting would likely lead to a fuller reorganization of the article, perhaps by bringing those negative descriptions up closer to the top of the article. Perhaps one entry in that enumeration would be to discuss the view that, as Derrida has said, deconstruction is not a method, but more akin to a process that occurs inherently through the dissemination of the text(s) that determine culture. I see this view of deconstruction as inherent process intimated or implied under the negative descriptions section, but the writer(s) do not make it explicit enough. It comes closest to emerging in the section on Differance. Again, a proper revision with clearer definitions will likely lead to reorganization, so that Differance is discussed after the definitions, including a briefer presentation of the negative descriptions. I think this inherent process is important, and some attempt at clear admission of this process will aid the uninitiated audience in understanding why deconstruction is not a method. To put it another way, "Deconstruction happens, or texts deconstruct themselves, with the verb used as an intransitive rather than transitive. (Sorry... I'll need to search for references to back this up). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.37.201.28 ( talk) 16:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I just took a class in post-structuralism, and we discussed Deconstruction in detail. I tried understanding it before I took the class, and it was impossible.
But what made it possible for me to understand this is the preliminary discussion on Saussurean semiotics and the binary opposition by which semiotic structures work. The concept of binary opposition is crucial in making a definition of Deconstruction. Sadly though,the article doesn't even make mention of it.
What did I learn Deconstruction is, you ask? It's actually very simple.As I digression, let me explain it.
Ferdinand de Saussure, father of Structuralism, declared two things: that signs were composed of "signifiers" (things used to represent, i.e. letters, phonemes, etc.) associated with "signifieds" (concepts of things) and that these signs (on both signifier and signified level) are only part of structures that work in a system of binary opposition: signs convey meaning, and the only way they can be signs and they can mean something is if they are put beside those that are not them and that have meanings other than theirs. That which is not-X defines what X is. "Dog" refers to the animal because 1.) its signifier is "dog" and not "cat" (or any other signifier) and 2.) the signifier "dog" is attached to a signified other than that to which "cat" (or any other signifier) is attached to.
Derrida, in his lecture "Structure, Sign and Play and the Discourse of the Human Sciences" says "the center is not the center, the center is elsewhere." This means that in "dog" the dog is not found, only that which is "not-not dog" ("not dog" being the binary opposite of dog). That the signifier "dog" never completely "associates" itself with the concept of dog is what is called Différance.
Deconstruction happens when you observe that "dog" means "not-not dog," and point out that opposites in fact define each other. Good is only good with evil around (that's John Milton's idea). Men are only men with women around. Speech is only a distinct form of communication with text around. Presence is only presence when we realize that there is absence. This is where Nietzsche comes in: the cause can only be determined with the effect, and contrary to common sense, the former follows the latter. To complete the reversal, "man" is a type of "woman" because it is one with a negative concept attached (a "woman that is not"). What makes it "not an approach" is that it doesn't answer the question it poses ("what then will a sign be outside its structure?") but simply refuses (rather mockingly) to let either side "take control" of the "violent hierarchy." ("woman" defines "man," but "man" defines "woman" too...) It is not at all constructive, hence the name.
For a more thorough introduction, try Raman Selden's Introduction to Literary Theory. He has a section there on this.
I hope that cleared things up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.190.158.58 ( talk) 19:27, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
the last sentence in the lead paragraph either means nothing because of how it is worded, or means virtually nothing to the general public because of how it is worded. can this be changed by someone who understands the intent of the sentence? Murderbike ( talk) 19:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
It's all made up, right? I mean, that gag has been done before. That is, seeing how long a paper of gobbledygook gets taken seriously before it's exposed. Is this one of them? I'm serious.
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 22:31, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Okay okay, I wasn't completely serious. It's just that, for a reader doesn't know that D is a "real" thing, and who doesn't check other sources, and who knows that such gags have been done in the past, the article does have a whiff of the possibility of it being that kind of gag. The very first sentence (before I improved it) seemed like an immediate attempt at misdirection and intimidation, both of which aren't encyclopedic, and both of which are necessary for the gag to work. And so on...
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 23:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
While editing the first sentence for better clarity, I realized that it is not a description of what the thing is but rather an immediate digression into the history of the word.
I beseech anyone who knows the subject better than I do, and who can write simply and clearly, to fix this off-topic-ness in the introduction paragraph.
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 23:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I just now saw (by scanning this talk page) that this not-describing-what-the-thing-is problem has been a problem since at least August 2008 (two years) - and I thought I was so clever to discover it! :-)
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 02:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Anyone know what the citation "Li and Chang" in the Theory section is referring to? -- Quadalpha ( talk) 02:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I want to point out, as a geek (and someone who doesn't understand literary criticism a bit) what I think about this article.
Article about deconstruction should, at least in the first few paragraphs, describe, what deconstruction is for those who does not know it. It shouldn't be a paper about deconstruction or discussion about it. BUT - the first three paragraphs, which should include the most important basis of the described thing, is written what desconstruction is not (i don't care what it's NOT!) and describing it all in some strange words I don't understand.
Just give a quick note at the beginning of the article to say, what deconstruction is - if someone can say it. If it's something that cannot be described as such, I don't know if it deserves an article :P -- 89.24.72.230 ( talk) 14:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I once heard a philosophy grad student discuss, for an hour, whether meanings existed. At the end of it, someone raised their hand and asked him what he meant by "exists." Before he could answer, someone added that they weren't sure what he meant by "meaning." He answered with a quote from Quine (I think, or it might have been Hume, I've forgotten)... something like: "our argument is not circular. Rather, its approximate form is that of a closed curve in space."
The problem isn't that no one has defined deconstruction in this article, it's that no one has ever defined it at all (successfully), leaving no one with much of anything constructive to say. I suspect that, much like the philosophy of language, the entire field of deconstructionism is one gigantic logical fallacy, shrouded in the mists of increasingly obtuse terminology designed specifically to avoid the realization that everything its practitioners have ever done (usually with the best of intentions) has been undermined by faulty assumptions.
That said, I don't really understand deconstruction any better than I understand quantum computing or astrobiology, so who am I to pass judgment. 71.81.78.66 ( talk) 23:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this article and the discussion just a perfect example of the confusion that arises from deconstruction? The fact that it seems so difficult to even give a simple definition is crazy. Reading the article, I'm wondering if a true article on it would require multiple sections, side by side, lifting up opposing interpretations of each point of deconstruction. Of course you can't give a definition of it, if you could, a deconstructionist would show up and deconstruct it. Continental philosophy always gave me a headache - just seems like a moving target. Complex things are very hard to explain, but I do wonder, if you can't at least define something simply, do you really understand it? Maybe some of the folks trying to write this article should leave it to those who actually know what they're talking about. 12:12 5 January 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.82.215.197 ( talk) 17:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
No one knows what Deconstruction is. Every conversation on Deconstruction is just two people pretending to know what Deconstruction is. More people need to be honest about this. Prominence should be given to the clear critism of Deconstruction as nonsense from academics who are comprehensible, such as Noam Chomsky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.37 ( talk • contribs)
I've been looking over the comments for a place to say this, and this is as good a place as any. I actually know exactly what "deconstruction" is. I'm a deconstructionist poet. I will not edit the article as long as it exists in some form. Deconstruction is an existentialist concept. here is a simplified view: the meaning of what I say can exist in one of 3 places: 1. my mind as I write. 2. the words. 3. your mind as you read. Deconstruction says the real meaning is in the words, because any meaning you and I may say exists is subjective. the text, or thought-out collection of words to most precisely transmit the meaning from me to you is what matters. any pride I may have in assembling the words doesn't matter. any feelings you attach to understanding the text doesn't matter. what matters is that the meaning is transmitted accurately. this seems easy enough until you consider the over-all ambiguity of language. how often does it happen that 2 words that seem to mean the same thing really don't, and should not be used interchangeably, but are. the "corrosive nihilism" that has been used to criticize deconstruction, from my experience, would seem to be that some words, some language would cease to be. it happens to me when I remove unneeded words from a poem and discover, or make obvious hidden and unseen meanings by having words modify the ideas before and after them in context. In my opinion, deconstruction is related to the Zen concept of the "transmission of mind", except instead of a lifelong search for spiritual understanding, it is a disciplined study through which clarity is achieved and improved. Discussion, like here, is but one deconstructionist method. As for Heidegger and Nietzsche, well, an exaggerated (perhaps) comparison would be that if there is a mis-spelled word, a deconstructionist might fix the spelling, or choose another word. Heidegger would have us re-write the whole article, and Nietzsche would blow up the server farm the wiki is on and start from scratch.
I write this because so much of what we do is just the informal deconstruction techniques we have developed as individuals (and sometimes even share), and no one gets it (deconstruction at work: I had written "understands" instead of "gets", but I think the meaning is better communicated this way. people understand the words, but don't get the meaning). 96.24.93.114 ( talk) 23:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I read the first sentence and decided to go no further with the article. Can the author please arrange for his/her text to be translated into standard English ? Thank you. Pamour ( talk) 09:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
The author of this article has fallen into the trap maybe of describing the subject matter in a style to appeal to fans of Derrida, a style which judging by the weight of criticism the article has received clearly does not appeal to everyone, but so far I have not found a rule in the Wikipedia principles against this. I am not sure the article entirely leads the way regarding the second of the five pillars of Wikipedia, namely neutrality and verifiable accuracy, but the first pillar states that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. If Wikipedia were a dictionary, then on the one hand, those who criticise the article for a lack of a snappy definition at the beginning would have a stronger case, but on the other hand, the nature of the subject matter would really not sit very well in Wikipedia. The article makes the important point, that the originator of the term apparently had his reasons for refusing to define it. It also includes at least references to some of the significant attempts of others in the field to do so.
I find some of the criticism here above of this brave and ambitious but flawed article to be rather harsh for Wikipedia, which is founded on openness, and editors are asked on the fourth pillar to be welcoming to others. How about everyone let’s just focus on the business of building Wikipedia and be constructive (no pun intended) about how to improve the article. Jonathan G. G. Lewis 02:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
In attempts to research this field elsewhere I notice several things:
Attempts to define Deconstruction by use of its own jargon are unsuccessful at communication, if standards of success formulated elsewhere are compared with those attempts. Perhaps the notions of recursion or tautology are evident.
The use of the term "text" can be replaced in some measure by the term "symbol transmission."
Symbol transmission conveys "meta" meaning by the very fact of symbol transmission. (Sender assumes message or meaning is necessary to transmit; recipient assumes sender assumes recipient in need of meaning, etc.)
Theories of knowledge are employed by deconstructionist thinkers.
Evolutionary psycho-physiology is not much present in deconstructionist dialog. Nor is modern data compression theory, cybernetic theory, information theory, thermodynamic theory as applied to information, behavioral psychyology, etc. Deconstruction theory often does not employ (avoids?) them.
Topics for discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.81.189.18 ( talk) 18:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with comments that this article is way too long for a typical encyclopedia article, not to mention to academic for most readers who aren't already at least somewhat familiar with the terminology to start with. I'd like to add some information on deconstruction in the visual arts, but good grief, not here. Proposed solution: Restrict the main "Deconstruction" article to some basic definitions and an overview of theorists (summary style), then move some of the more detailed info into child articles that branch off from the main Deconstruction article: i.e., Deconstruction in literature, Deconstruction in music, Deconstruction in cinema, Deconstruction in art. I think that would be a start. I anticipate problems with cross-genre works and theorists, yes, but this huge, lumbering article needs to be more concise and clear. Too much here for a generalist readership, IMO. OttawaAC ( talk) 02:14, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This is not "my version". I only tried to revert it to an older one before your bold editing. After that some other editors made some contributions. I will revert to it. Please try to get consensus before editing. There is a lot to do, but not the way you wnt to do it (all your critics seem fair and are easy to correct. I will do it after reverting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hibrido Mutante ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I am afraid that Hibrido Mutante's behavior at this article, and its talk page, involves the same kind of problems as his behavior at other articles and their talk pages. Although he invokes WP:CONSENSUS, it's his edits that violate it. Hibrido, WP:MOS is a standard that editors are expected to follow, and Drmies is trying to help you by bringing this to your attention. Another relevant guideline is WP:NOTDICTIONARY; this article is about Deconstruction, not the term "Deconstruction", so it cannot begin with the line, "Deconstruction is a term introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida in his 1967 book Of Grammatology." That would be appropriate for a dictionary, but this is an encyclopedia. Polisher of Cobwebs ( talk) 22:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
1) First of all
a) the shape you gave the article in no way conforms to our MOS.
b) The ubiquitous use of text boxes (even in footnotes!) is unnecessary and distracting, and several of them had quotations that started before or ended after the box.
d) the parentheses unclosed in the second paragraph of the lead?
e) The wordplay in many of the sections suggests emulation, but our readership does not like surprises.
2) Second,
a) I note (under "Not a method") a number of headings with titles that are perfectly acceptable in Derridean books, but not in our articles.
b) Moreover, the tone in your version is far from encyclopedic—
c) On the one hand, we must traverse a phase of overturning." "We" is inappropriate, as is the jargon.
d) your version does not take the necessary distance between topic and treatment and in many ways does not conform to our guidelines
Hibrido Mutante seems intent on edit warring at this article. He reverted me with the comment, "This editor is not following the rules of consensus. This has nothing to do with being a dictionary." The suggestion that I am not "following the rules of consensus" is remarkable, given that no one has supported Hibrido Mutante here, and one other editor (Drmies) has also reverted him. Hibrido's comment that "This has nothing to do with being a dicctionarie" is not an argument, and in no way responds to the point I made in the edit summary. Wikipedia articles are, with a handful of exceptions, about topics, not about words. An article called Deconstruction should be about Deconstruction, not the term "Deconstruction", and therefore it cannot begin, "Deconstruction is a term introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida in his 1967 book Of Grammatology." Plainly, that violates the intent of WP:NOTDICTIONARY, and as such is unacceptable. The other version of the lead, starting with, "Deconstructionism is a philosophical theory of literary and other artistic criticism", is better because it properly identifies the topic of the article. Polisher of Cobwebs ( talk) 07:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
-- Hibrido Mutante ( talk) 14:44, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
-- Hibrido Mutante ( talk) 16:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually dictionaries do, in fact, sometimes say who introduced a term. The issue is irrelevant, however. I wasn't arguing that the way you edited the article made it identical to a dictionary entry in all respects, only that it crossed a certain line, making an encyclopedia entry read more like a dictionary entry than it should. As the article is about the concept/practice/theory, or whatever, of Deconstruction and not the actual term "Deconstruction", it shouldn't begin by asserting that Deconstruction is a "term". Polisher of Cobwebs ( talk) 01:28, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The XKCD comic "Impostor". that criticized this page, actually had a clearer opening couple of paragraphs than what is currently here. The text is reproduced below:
"Deconstruction is a term in contemporary philosophy, literary criticism, and the social sciences, denoting a process by which the texts and languages of Western philosophy (in particular) appear to shift and complicate in meaning when read in light of the assumptions and absences they reveal within themselves. Jacques Derrida coined the term in the 1960s, [1] and proved more forthcoming with negative, rather than positive, analyses of the school.
Subjects relevant to deconstruction include the philosophy of meaning in Western thought, and the ways that meaning is constructed by Western writers, texts, and readers and understood by readers. Though Derrida himself denied deconstruction was a method or school of philosophy, or indeed anything outside of reading the text itself, the term has been used by others to describe Derrida's particular methods of textual criticism, which involved discovering, recognizing, and understanding the underlying—and unspoken and implicit—assumptions, ideas, and frameworks that form the basis for thought and belief, for example, in complicating the ordinary division made between nature and culture. Derrida's deconstruction was drawn mainly from the work of Heidegger and his notion of Destruktion but also from Levinas and his ideas upon the Other." 68.105.46.68 ( talk) 18:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
The article is clearly written in an unencyclopedic style more similar to an argumentative essay. It needs to state in clearly intelligible language what Deconstruction is, who has developed it and how it has been used and criticized. It should not rely on primary sources (i.e. no long quotes or original exegeses of Derrida), but on secondary sources interpreting Derrida and other deconstructionists. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 23:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
How are readers who come to this article after seeing the term deconstruction being used by Anders Behring Breivik and other people who use this type of rhetoric, supposed to read the present article to gain an increased understanding of the issue at hand? __ meco ( talk) 12:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I've heard through the grapevine that there's been some contentious editing, debate, and so on here, between editors who can roughly be put into the Team Derrida and the Team Anti-Derrida camps. I'm encouraging anyone who can write well and in detail on Derrida's ideas and his opinions on other deconstructionists, to add some high-quality research to the Derrida on deconstruction article. It could use expansion, and it's a worthy humanities topic that deserves better analysis on Wikipedia. OttawaAC ( talk) 21:24, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Derrida was a French philosopher, so I checked the French article on deconstruction which is simple and maybe too short...
French introduction for "Deconstruction": "La déconstruction est une méthode, voire une école, de la philosophie contemporaine. Cette pratique d'analyse textuelle s'exerce sur de nombreux types d'écrits (philosophie, littérature, journaux), pour révéler les décalages et confusions de sens qu'ils font apparaître par une lecture centrée sur les postulats sous-entendus et les omissions dévoilés par le texte lui-même. Ce concept, participant à la fois de la philosophie et de la littérature, a eu un grand écho aux États-Unis, où il est assimilé à la philosophie postmoderne, et plus globalement à l'approche divergente de la philosophie continentale d'Europe. Si le terme « déconstruction » a d'abord été utilisé par Heidegger, c'est l'œuvre de Derrida qui en a systématisé l'usage et théorisé la pratique."
I translated the French introduction as follow: "Deconstruction is a philosophical methodology for textual analysis that can be applied to different types of works. It is sometimes considered as a school of contemporary philosophy. Deconstruction reveals confusions and shifts of meanings produced by a text during a reading focussed on its suggested suppositions and on its omissions. This concept of philosophy and literature had an important repercussion in the United States where it is assimilated to post-modern philosophy and European continental philosophy. The word "deconstruction" was first used by Heidegger. Derrida systematised the use of the term and theorised the practice of deconstruction."
The French article has 3 parts after the introduction as follow: 1) Heidegger's Deconstruction 2) Derrida's Deconstruction 3) Thinkers influenced by Deconstruction
I think that there is space for improvement in the French version that I find incomplete. However, this introduction has the quality of being informative and easy to understand for anyone. The French Version assumes that Heidegger first used the term "deconstruction", but this statement is false as Heidegger used the German term "Destruktion" which finds a better translation with the word: "Destruction". Hopefully this will help to improve the English version... -- Christophe Krief ( talk) 22:59, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
The primary definition of deconstruction is to break into parts;
de·con·struct (dkn-strkt) tr.v. de·con·struct·ed, de·con·struct·ing, de·con·structs 1. To break down into components; dismantle. 2. To write about or analyze (a literary text, for example), following the tenets of deconstruction.
This article is about the secondary and very specific usage related to Derrida.
Where is the article on deconstruction. In general many things are de-constructed into their components for analysis and not this specific Derrida type of analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.148.52.64 ( talk) 10:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
I read the opening paragraphs and I was confused as to what this word/idea means, as it seems to be fairly poorly written. I propose that is should be rewritten to focus on the meaning, preferably in laymen terms, and move the historical stuff later (it shouldn't "bury the lead" like it does currently). I think that focusing on the history first rather than explaining what the idea means, suggests that the idea is no longer relevant to modern thought, which is misleading. From what I can tell it should be edited as follows, although perhaps someone more familiar with the topic can verify if this is accurate:
"Deconstruction is a form of semiotic analysis, proposed by Jacques Derrida in his 1967 book Of Grammatology. It is a dissection of a text to its components, to understand the values given to each component, both relative to each other component and to the context in which they are placed. This comes from an understanding that when ideas are put into binary opposition, such as in structuralism or Hegelian analysis, there is an implied hierarchy between the two ideas. Deconstruction exposes the way oppositions work and how meaning and values are produced, in order to "create new concepts, [and] to mark their difference and eternal interplay." [2] Deconstruction holds that ( French: it ny apas de hors-texte)"there is nothing outside the text", so that only information and logic from within a given text matters."
Then I think the history (including that Jacques Derrida was a French philosopher) of the term/method should then immediately follow -- as this seems to be important to the development and understanding of what deconstruction is, and possibly the examples of what it is not. I think that organizing it like this would improve the readability of the text significantly. I will also commit these changes to the source article, but I've posted here so that if they get reverted, the proposal can be easily seen by future authors. 68.105.46.68 ( talk) 21:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Ok, above was reverted by talk -- I re-undid it, because it was 4 seconds between posting and reverting. But yeah, someone, maybe a philosophy graduate student, should really take a look at this article. 68.105.46.68 ( talk) 22:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
A philosophy grad is never going to make a normative statement about it. Deconstruction confounds authority to the point of effacing meaning. It is a tool against bad systems of government, but is good and bad, in the sense that oppression can employ it equally against dissent. If you cannot argue with someone on issues, or logic, use deconstructionism to obfuscate discussion ad naseum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamiltek ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
The text of the first paragraph is so poorly written, I almost think it was generated by a computer algorithm. I understand this might be a difficult concept to explain in ordinary, every-day language, but could you at least make the effort in the opening paragraph? WTF...
208.78.149.62 ( talk) 18:54, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I have to agree the article is unintelligible
I came to it seeking an explanation of deconstruction but well. To put it mildly the article fails to supply one. There is a lot of talk but is anyone in a position to amend the text so that an ordinary reader can understand it? 145.64.134.241 ( talk) 15:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC)Drshok
Watch this video and you will find that Derrida himself appears to have difficulties to define clearly the subject: Video of Jacques Derrida attempting to define "Deconstruction". I agree that the article needs to be improved, but the controversy surrounding the subject and the different points of views, different interpretations and approaches from different editors, are making this task impossible. This is only my personal position as some editors think that the article should be preserved in its present form.-- Christophe Krief ( talk) 09:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I will have a look to it next month... I will try to improve it without changing the intended meaning... -- Christophe Krief ( talk) 10:06, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Hello, all:
I recently came to this article to see what it looked like, and I was fairly surprised at how long it was. I understand no one wishes to make a statement on deconstruction in a generalized, reductionist statement, etc. But, there comes a point where too much information provides no information. I want to direct everyone looking to better this article to a lecture on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s8SSilNSXw . Derrida talks of how deconstruction cannot be directly pinned down, as he did for almost his entire career. From what I see, this article tries to pin down deconstruction. I understand the dedication put into this article, but I believe it becomes self-defeating. It also ironically becomes something it wasn't intended to be.
( willsy) 2:55pm 26 September 2012 (GMT)
I believe the above suggestion for substituting the intro for the translation from the French can be a good start. Furthermore, perhaps a simple sentence conveying something like "the actual definition is hard to give[references], but with out being too specific one could say deconstruction is..." could perhaps be a good compromise between those who want to make this article readable by someone and those who insist in deconstruction being "undefinable".
Syats ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:58, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. Though I worry that a statement as simple as "the actual definition is hard to give" is in itself actually anti-deconstruction. Deconstruction is avoidant of definitions. The heart of deconstruction is that language, definitions, and the black/white terms used for both are in fact traps. This article (and any writing about deconstruction) in inherently difficult because, from a deconstructionist point of view, language is the wellspring of reductionist thinking. It seems really important to have an early segment that at least cursorily mentions this paradox in 'defining' deconstruction.
I would also really like to see a segment of important terms in deconstruction such a Différance.
( 3Bliss) 3:15pm 04 January 2013 (GMT)
The article reads as if it is translated without editing for ambiguities and contradictions. The below is a helpful dictionary presentation: deconstruction noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Method of philosophical and literary analysis, derived mainly from the work of Jacques Derrida, that questions the fundamental conceptual distinctions, or “oppositions,” in Western philosophy through a close examination of the language and logic of philosophical and literary texts. Such oppositions are characteristically “binary” and “hierarchical,” involving a pair of terms in which one member of the pair is assumed to be primary or fundamental, the other secondary or derivative; examples include nature/culture, speech/writing, and mind/body. To “deconstruct” an opposition is to explore the tensions and contradictions between the hierarchical ordering assumed in the text and other aspects of the text's meaning, especially its figurative or performative aspects. The deconstruction “displaces” the opposition by showing that neither term is primary; the opposition is a product, or “construction,” of the text rather than something given independently of it. The speech/writing opposition, according to which speech is “present” to the speaker or author and writing “absent,” is a manifestation of what Derrida calls the “logocentrism” of Western culture—i.e., the general assumption that there is a realm of “truth” existing prior to and independent of its representation by linguistic signs. In polemical discussions about intellectual trends of the late 20th century, deconstruction was sometimes used pejoratively to suggest nihilism and frivolous skepticism. In popular usage the term has come to mean a critical dismantling of tradition and traditional modes of thought. See also postmodernism; poststructuralism. wblakesx Wblakesx ( talk) 17:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Any section that is more than 50% direct quotes from primary sources should be summarily deleted. No last meal, no priest, no cigarette, just delete, bang, done. There is wayyy too much first-hand interpretation in this article, and very scanty analysis of secondary sources. It's just sa in this condition. OttawaAC ( talk) 01:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I see I am not the first to be completely confused by the introduction, but it has not improved. Would someone who understands this subject provide a clear, concise summary? Thank you.
The introductions by Chrisophe Krief and Settdigger were comprehensible and an improvement on the current state. Why were they reverted?
108.49.162.160 ( talk) 20:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
In this page Derrida states that the occidental history of sign is essentially theological and that we must abandon these roots to shake our cultural inheritance. Derrida starts a metaphysical approach of semiology. He states that the concept of sign and deconstruction work are always exposed to misunderstanding. He uses the term "méconnaissance" probably in reference to Jacques Lacan who rejected the belief that reality can be captured in language. In the same page Derrida states that he will try to demonstrate that there is no linguistic sign without writing.
The "Deconstruction" in Derrida's "Of Grammatology" relates essentially to understanding the idea of logos and its influences on occidental philosophy. Derrida criticizes Rousseau (Etudes sur l'origine des langues" and Saussure for their belief that writing is only a recording of the speech. Derrida believes that writing has its own existence, he uses Researches from Peirce to make his point....[...] I have stopped page 70 of the 425 pages. This is my second reading of this research from Derrida. My first reading was in 1995. I am taking notes relevant to "Deconstruction" in order to help improving this article.-- Christophe Krief ( talk) 21:23, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
If no objection by 29 April 2013. I will remove the tag " The lead section of this article may need to be rewritten." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christophe Krief ( talk • contribs) 10:21, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok. Personally only "Over-quotation" makes sense here...someone should try to paraphrase it (it looks clear to me and it doesn't look personal opinions, only Derrida quotes). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.152.138.92 ( talk) 10:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This article is piecemeal, poorly written and frequently wrong, lacking structure, clarity, and coherence. It needs to be abandoned and restarted. This, of course, is not possible unless a consensus forms in favour of deleting almost all the material currently included in the article. Until that consensus forms it is not possible to begin to create a worthwhile encyclopedia entry on this topic. Mtevfrog ( talk) 22:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the problem is that deconstructionist analysis of texts has nothing to do with science, and should be viewed as something on par with creationist analysis of the origins of life, or astrological analysis of the future events. It uses a great lot of made-up words to obscure the embarrassing truth, that it has nothing to say. Obviously, deconstructivists won't ever admit that, and will vandalize any proper description of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.190.70.129 ( talk) 08:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is written in, obscure, often impenetrable prose. It therefor conforms with all current international guidelines emanating from The Guild of Postmodernist Artists and Writers. Prunesqualer ( talk) 11:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. This article definately needs a re-write. In it's current form, it is completely incomprehensable. Wikipedia's purpose is to educate. Anyone reading this article who isn't a complete master of the subject will have absolutely no idea what the hell this article is taking about. Can we please make it so that someone who hasn't written papers on this subject will actually know what we're talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The JMO Man ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The do boy initially resisted granting to his approach the overarching name "deconstruction," on the grounds that it was a precise technical term that could not be used to characterise his work generally. Nevertheless, he eventually accepted that the term had come into common use to refer to his textual approach, and Derrida himself increasingly began to use the term in this more general way.
Do boy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.48.163 ( talk) 23:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Folks, I'm kind of an outsider to this whole discussion, but I have valiantly tried to understand what this is all about and have utterly failed. Is this because the term is just indefinable, or is it because the article is just so laden with gobbledygook that only people "in the profession" can figure it out? If it's the latter then this whole thing needs a drastic rewrite, because it's incomprehensible to the average Joe, I suspect deliberately so. Thant’s fine for some English journal, but not for Wikipedia. Andacar ( talk) 07:15, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
This article has won the internet. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
158.169.131.14 (
talk)
12:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The following was in the section on Criticism in Popular Media but it really doesn't belong there: " Native American novelist Gerald Vizenor claims an extensive debt to deconstructionist ideas in attacking essentialist notions of race." Lawyer2b ( talk) 13:48, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I've just set the assessment to mid importance for the Literature wikiproject. I'm unsure if the importance is actually high as for Philosophy.-- Sum ( talk) 00:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
The first two sentences are terrible. They tell us little and are poorly constructed. I won't risk doing it myself, only to have it redacted in 20 seconds. Someone who's allowed to contribute, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.27.121.68 ( talk) 17:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I completely agree. This is a poor introduction and doesn't really explain anything, in addition to sounding overtly esoteric. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.216.35 ( talk) 22:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but I can't make head nor tail of the introduction. I can't imagine anything being summed up so badly in two sentences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.85.248 ( talk) 20:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I found this from a quick Googling. I can't say it's the clearest prose I've read, but it gives me a much better idea than this article:
"A term tied very closely to postmodernism, deconstructionism is a challenge to the attempt to establish any ultimate or secure meaning in a text. Basing itself in language analysis, it seeks to "deconstruct" the ideological biases (gender, racial, economic, political, cultural) and traditional assumptions that infect all histories, as well as philosophical and religious "truths." Deconstructionism is based on the premise that much of human history, in trying to understand, and then define, reality has led to various forms of domination - of nature, of people of color, of the poor, of homosexuals, etc. Like postmodernism, deconstructionism finds concrete experience more valid than abstract ideas and, therefore, refutes any attempts to produce a history, or a truth. In other words, the multiplicities and contingencies of human experience necessarily bring knowledge down to the local and specific level, and challenge the tendency to centralize power through the claims of an ultimate truth which must be accepted or obeyed by all." -- http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/decon-body.html
Is this a reasonable intro? I'm not going to edit the page myself because I'm in no position to say whether it's accurate. 66.44.24.184 ( talk) 22:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC) - Brian
"It is difficult to define formally "Deconstruction" within Western philosophy."? Why not "It is difficult to formally define 'Deconstruction'"? Why within western philosophy? Does it become easy with reference to Lao Tzu? TheAnonymousHamster ( talk) 04:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
While we're at it.... What is the sentence "Most criticism of deconstruction is difficult to read and summarise.", which reads as a dig at critics of deconstruction, doing in the Definition section at all? TheAnonymousHamster ( talk) 21:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
It's difficult to define "deconstruction" for the same reason that it's difficult to define "art". (That doesn't mean deconstruction is art, but perhaps it is an art). We generally recognize art when we see it, but we don't have a general algorithm which will produce it. (We have algorithms that can produce artifacts recognizeable as art, but not ones that capture all and any art, or that decide art from non-art). Deconstruction basically means to find some interpretation for some piece of text, other than what the actually says. If it has various qualities like being sublimely clever, funny, or somehow enligthening or stimulating, then the intellectuals will point at it and call it a fine work of deconstruction. The nice thing is that if you have a talent for interpreting some text in wacky ways, you don't have to study anything about deconstruction to do it, or justify what you are doing in any way. Which is the essence of true liberal arts: avoiding anything that smells like what employed people do. And so, the only small problem with that deconstructionist interpretation is that the text doesn't really say that.-- 70.79.96.174 ( talk) 04:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
"Deconstruction basically means to find some interpretation for some piece of text, other than what the actually says." That is the clearest definition of this topic that I have ever seen. If the whole article was replaced by that sentence, it would lead to greater understanding for the average wikipedia user. Jimhsu77479 ( talk) 22:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
yeah! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.60.125.88 (
talk)
13:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The current definition "Deconstruction is a term that French philosopher Jacques Derrida introduced..." does not say what the term means. What happened to the Wikipedia definition shown by Google: "Deconstruction is an approach, introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida, which rigorously pursues the meaning of a text to the point of undoing the oppositions on which it is apparently founded, and to the point of showing that those foundations are irreducibly complex, unstable or ..."? That one at least gave a meaning to the word. PlutarcoNaranjo ( talk) 19:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree with PlutarcoNaranjo on that point. It occurs to me that in the opening definition, we might attain that clarity for the uninitiated reader by enumerating three or four ways to "define" deconstruction. A difficulty in doing this, however, would be an overlap with the section on Derrida's negative descriptions. This revision I'm suggesting would likely lead to a fuller reorganization of the article, perhaps by bringing those negative descriptions up closer to the top of the article. Perhaps one entry in that enumeration would be to discuss the view that, as Derrida has said, deconstruction is not a method, but more akin to a process that occurs inherently through the dissemination of the text(s) that determine culture. I see this view of deconstruction as inherent process intimated or implied under the negative descriptions section, but the writer(s) do not make it explicit enough. It comes closest to emerging in the section on Differance. Again, a proper revision with clearer definitions will likely lead to reorganization, so that Differance is discussed after the definitions, including a briefer presentation of the negative descriptions. I think this inherent process is important, and some attempt at clear admission of this process will aid the uninitiated audience in understanding why deconstruction is not a method. To put it another way, "Deconstruction happens, or texts deconstruct themselves, with the verb used as an intransitive rather than transitive. (Sorry... I'll need to search for references to back this up). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.37.201.28 ( talk) 16:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I just took a class in post-structuralism, and we discussed Deconstruction in detail. I tried understanding it before I took the class, and it was impossible.
But what made it possible for me to understand this is the preliminary discussion on Saussurean semiotics and the binary opposition by which semiotic structures work. The concept of binary opposition is crucial in making a definition of Deconstruction. Sadly though,the article doesn't even make mention of it.
What did I learn Deconstruction is, you ask? It's actually very simple.As I digression, let me explain it.
Ferdinand de Saussure, father of Structuralism, declared two things: that signs were composed of "signifiers" (things used to represent, i.e. letters, phonemes, etc.) associated with "signifieds" (concepts of things) and that these signs (on both signifier and signified level) are only part of structures that work in a system of binary opposition: signs convey meaning, and the only way they can be signs and they can mean something is if they are put beside those that are not them and that have meanings other than theirs. That which is not-X defines what X is. "Dog" refers to the animal because 1.) its signifier is "dog" and not "cat" (or any other signifier) and 2.) the signifier "dog" is attached to a signified other than that to which "cat" (or any other signifier) is attached to.
Derrida, in his lecture "Structure, Sign and Play and the Discourse of the Human Sciences" says "the center is not the center, the center is elsewhere." This means that in "dog" the dog is not found, only that which is "not-not dog" ("not dog" being the binary opposite of dog). That the signifier "dog" never completely "associates" itself with the concept of dog is what is called Différance.
Deconstruction happens when you observe that "dog" means "not-not dog," and point out that opposites in fact define each other. Good is only good with evil around (that's John Milton's idea). Men are only men with women around. Speech is only a distinct form of communication with text around. Presence is only presence when we realize that there is absence. This is where Nietzsche comes in: the cause can only be determined with the effect, and contrary to common sense, the former follows the latter. To complete the reversal, "man" is a type of "woman" because it is one with a negative concept attached (a "woman that is not"). What makes it "not an approach" is that it doesn't answer the question it poses ("what then will a sign be outside its structure?") but simply refuses (rather mockingly) to let either side "take control" of the "violent hierarchy." ("woman" defines "man," but "man" defines "woman" too...) It is not at all constructive, hence the name.
For a more thorough introduction, try Raman Selden's Introduction to Literary Theory. He has a section there on this.
I hope that cleared things up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.190.158.58 ( talk) 19:27, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
the last sentence in the lead paragraph either means nothing because of how it is worded, or means virtually nothing to the general public because of how it is worded. can this be changed by someone who understands the intent of the sentence? Murderbike ( talk) 19:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
It's all made up, right? I mean, that gag has been done before. That is, seeing how long a paper of gobbledygook gets taken seriously before it's exposed. Is this one of them? I'm serious.
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 22:31, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Okay okay, I wasn't completely serious. It's just that, for a reader doesn't know that D is a "real" thing, and who doesn't check other sources, and who knows that such gags have been done in the past, the article does have a whiff of the possibility of it being that kind of gag. The very first sentence (before I improved it) seemed like an immediate attempt at misdirection and intimidation, both of which aren't encyclopedic, and both of which are necessary for the gag to work. And so on...
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 23:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
While editing the first sentence for better clarity, I realized that it is not a description of what the thing is but rather an immediate digression into the history of the word.
I beseech anyone who knows the subject better than I do, and who can write simply and clearly, to fix this off-topic-ness in the introduction paragraph.
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 23:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I just now saw (by scanning this talk page) that this not-describing-what-the-thing-is problem has been a problem since at least August 2008 (two years) - and I thought I was so clever to discover it! :-)
108.7.8.198 ( talk) 02:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Anyone know what the citation "Li and Chang" in the Theory section is referring to? -- Quadalpha ( talk) 02:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I want to point out, as a geek (and someone who doesn't understand literary criticism a bit) what I think about this article.
Article about deconstruction should, at least in the first few paragraphs, describe, what deconstruction is for those who does not know it. It shouldn't be a paper about deconstruction or discussion about it. BUT - the first three paragraphs, which should include the most important basis of the described thing, is written what desconstruction is not (i don't care what it's NOT!) and describing it all in some strange words I don't understand.
Just give a quick note at the beginning of the article to say, what deconstruction is - if someone can say it. If it's something that cannot be described as such, I don't know if it deserves an article :P -- 89.24.72.230 ( talk) 14:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I once heard a philosophy grad student discuss, for an hour, whether meanings existed. At the end of it, someone raised their hand and asked him what he meant by "exists." Before he could answer, someone added that they weren't sure what he meant by "meaning." He answered with a quote from Quine (I think, or it might have been Hume, I've forgotten)... something like: "our argument is not circular. Rather, its approximate form is that of a closed curve in space."
The problem isn't that no one has defined deconstruction in this article, it's that no one has ever defined it at all (successfully), leaving no one with much of anything constructive to say. I suspect that, much like the philosophy of language, the entire field of deconstructionism is one gigantic logical fallacy, shrouded in the mists of increasingly obtuse terminology designed specifically to avoid the realization that everything its practitioners have ever done (usually with the best of intentions) has been undermined by faulty assumptions.
That said, I don't really understand deconstruction any better than I understand quantum computing or astrobiology, so who am I to pass judgment. 71.81.78.66 ( talk) 23:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this article and the discussion just a perfect example of the confusion that arises from deconstruction? The fact that it seems so difficult to even give a simple definition is crazy. Reading the article, I'm wondering if a true article on it would require multiple sections, side by side, lifting up opposing interpretations of each point of deconstruction. Of course you can't give a definition of it, if you could, a deconstructionist would show up and deconstruct it. Continental philosophy always gave me a headache - just seems like a moving target. Complex things are very hard to explain, but I do wonder, if you can't at least define something simply, do you really understand it? Maybe some of the folks trying to write this article should leave it to those who actually know what they're talking about. 12:12 5 January 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.82.215.197 ( talk) 17:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
No one knows what Deconstruction is. Every conversation on Deconstruction is just two people pretending to know what Deconstruction is. More people need to be honest about this. Prominence should be given to the clear critism of Deconstruction as nonsense from academics who are comprehensible, such as Noam Chomsky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.37 ( talk • contribs)
I've been looking over the comments for a place to say this, and this is as good a place as any. I actually know exactly what "deconstruction" is. I'm a deconstructionist poet. I will not edit the article as long as it exists in some form. Deconstruction is an existentialist concept. here is a simplified view: the meaning of what I say can exist in one of 3 places: 1. my mind as I write. 2. the words. 3. your mind as you read. Deconstruction says the real meaning is in the words, because any meaning you and I may say exists is subjective. the text, or thought-out collection of words to most precisely transmit the meaning from me to you is what matters. any pride I may have in assembling the words doesn't matter. any feelings you attach to understanding the text doesn't matter. what matters is that the meaning is transmitted accurately. this seems easy enough until you consider the over-all ambiguity of language. how often does it happen that 2 words that seem to mean the same thing really don't, and should not be used interchangeably, but are. the "corrosive nihilism" that has been used to criticize deconstruction, from my experience, would seem to be that some words, some language would cease to be. it happens to me when I remove unneeded words from a poem and discover, or make obvious hidden and unseen meanings by having words modify the ideas before and after them in context. In my opinion, deconstruction is related to the Zen concept of the "transmission of mind", except instead of a lifelong search for spiritual understanding, it is a disciplined study through which clarity is achieved and improved. Discussion, like here, is but one deconstructionist method. As for Heidegger and Nietzsche, well, an exaggerated (perhaps) comparison would be that if there is a mis-spelled word, a deconstructionist might fix the spelling, or choose another word. Heidegger would have us re-write the whole article, and Nietzsche would blow up the server farm the wiki is on and start from scratch.
I write this because so much of what we do is just the informal deconstruction techniques we have developed as individuals (and sometimes even share), and no one gets it (deconstruction at work: I had written "understands" instead of "gets", but I think the meaning is better communicated this way. people understand the words, but don't get the meaning). 96.24.93.114 ( talk) 23:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I read the first sentence and decided to go no further with the article. Can the author please arrange for his/her text to be translated into standard English ? Thank you. Pamour ( talk) 09:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
The author of this article has fallen into the trap maybe of describing the subject matter in a style to appeal to fans of Derrida, a style which judging by the weight of criticism the article has received clearly does not appeal to everyone, but so far I have not found a rule in the Wikipedia principles against this. I am not sure the article entirely leads the way regarding the second of the five pillars of Wikipedia, namely neutrality and verifiable accuracy, but the first pillar states that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. If Wikipedia were a dictionary, then on the one hand, those who criticise the article for a lack of a snappy definition at the beginning would have a stronger case, but on the other hand, the nature of the subject matter would really not sit very well in Wikipedia. The article makes the important point, that the originator of the term apparently had his reasons for refusing to define it. It also includes at least references to some of the significant attempts of others in the field to do so.
I find some of the criticism here above of this brave and ambitious but flawed article to be rather harsh for Wikipedia, which is founded on openness, and editors are asked on the fourth pillar to be welcoming to others. How about everyone let’s just focus on the business of building Wikipedia and be constructive (no pun intended) about how to improve the article. Jonathan G. G. Lewis 02:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
In attempts to research this field elsewhere I notice several things:
Attempts to define Deconstruction by use of its own jargon are unsuccessful at communication, if standards of success formulated elsewhere are compared with those attempts. Perhaps the notions of recursion or tautology are evident.
The use of the term "text" can be replaced in some measure by the term "symbol transmission."
Symbol transmission conveys "meta" meaning by the very fact of symbol transmission. (Sender assumes message or meaning is necessary to transmit; recipient assumes sender assumes recipient in need of meaning, etc.)
Theories of knowledge are employed by deconstructionist thinkers.
Evolutionary psycho-physiology is not much present in deconstructionist dialog. Nor is modern data compression theory, cybernetic theory, information theory, thermodynamic theory as applied to information, behavioral psychyology, etc. Deconstruction theory often does not employ (avoids?) them.
Topics for discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.81.189.18 ( talk) 18:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with comments that this article is way too long for a typical encyclopedia article, not to mention to academic for most readers who aren't already at least somewhat familiar with the terminology to start with. I'd like to add some information on deconstruction in the visual arts, but good grief, not here. Proposed solution: Restrict the main "Deconstruction" article to some basic definitions and an overview of theorists (summary style), then move some of the more detailed info into child articles that branch off from the main Deconstruction article: i.e., Deconstruction in literature, Deconstruction in music, Deconstruction in cinema, Deconstruction in art. I think that would be a start. I anticipate problems with cross-genre works and theorists, yes, but this huge, lumbering article needs to be more concise and clear. Too much here for a generalist readership, IMO. OttawaAC ( talk) 02:14, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This is not "my version". I only tried to revert it to an older one before your bold editing. After that some other editors made some contributions. I will revert to it. Please try to get consensus before editing. There is a lot to do, but not the way you wnt to do it (all your critics seem fair and are easy to correct. I will do it after reverting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hibrido Mutante ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I am afraid that Hibrido Mutante's behavior at this article, and its talk page, involves the same kind of problems as his behavior at other articles and their talk pages. Although he invokes WP:CONSENSUS, it's his edits that violate it. Hibrido, WP:MOS is a standard that editors are expected to follow, and Drmies is trying to help you by bringing this to your attention. Another relevant guideline is WP:NOTDICTIONARY; this article is about Deconstruction, not the term "Deconstruction", so it cannot begin with the line, "Deconstruction is a term introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida in his 1967 book Of Grammatology." That would be appropriate for a dictionary, but this is an encyclopedia. Polisher of Cobwebs ( talk) 22:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
1) First of all
a) the shape you gave the article in no way conforms to our MOS.
b) The ubiquitous use of text boxes (even in footnotes!) is unnecessary and distracting, and several of them had quotations that started before or ended after the box.
d) the parentheses unclosed in the second paragraph of the lead?
e) The wordplay in many of the sections suggests emulation, but our readership does not like surprises.
2) Second,
a) I note (under "Not a method") a number of headings with titles that are perfectly acceptable in Derridean books, but not in our articles.
b) Moreover, the tone in your version is far from encyclopedic—
c) On the one hand, we must traverse a phase of overturning." "We" is inappropriate, as is the jargon.
d) your version does not take the necessary distance between topic and treatment and in many ways does not conform to our guidelines
Hibrido Mutante seems intent on edit warring at this article. He reverted me with the comment, "This editor is not following the rules of consensus. This has nothing to do with being a dictionary." The suggestion that I am not "following the rules of consensus" is remarkable, given that no one has supported Hibrido Mutante here, and one other editor (Drmies) has also reverted him. Hibrido's comment that "This has nothing to do with being a dicctionarie" is not an argument, and in no way responds to the point I made in the edit summary. Wikipedia articles are, with a handful of exceptions, about topics, not about words. An article called Deconstruction should be about Deconstruction, not the term "Deconstruction", and therefore it cannot begin, "Deconstruction is a term introduced by French philosopher Jacques Derrida in his 1967 book Of Grammatology." Plainly, that violates the intent of WP:NOTDICTIONARY, and as such is unacceptable. The other version of the lead, starting with, "Deconstructionism is a philosophical theory of literary and other artistic criticism", is better because it properly identifies the topic of the article. Polisher of Cobwebs ( talk) 07:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
-- Hibrido Mutante ( talk) 14:44, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
-- Hibrido Mutante ( talk) 16:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually dictionaries do, in fact, sometimes say who introduced a term. The issue is irrelevant, however. I wasn't arguing that the way you edited the article made it identical to a dictionary entry in all respects, only that it crossed a certain line, making an encyclopedia entry read more like a dictionary entry than it should. As the article is about the concept/practice/theory, or whatever, of Deconstruction and not the actual term "Deconstruction", it shouldn't begin by asserting that Deconstruction is a "term". Polisher of Cobwebs ( talk) 01:28, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The XKCD comic "Impostor". that criticized this page, actually had a clearer opening couple of paragraphs than what is currently here. The text is reproduced below:
"Deconstruction is a term in contemporary philosophy, literary criticism, and the social sciences, denoting a process by which the texts and languages of Western philosophy (in particular) appear to shift and complicate in meaning when read in light of the assumptions and absences they reveal within themselves. Jacques Derrida coined the term in the 1960s, [1] and proved more forthcoming with negative, rather than positive, analyses of the school.
Subjects relevant to deconstruction include the philosophy of meaning in Western thought, and the ways that meaning is constructed by Western writers, texts, and readers and understood by readers. Though Derrida himself denied deconstruction was a method or school of philosophy, or indeed anything outside of reading the text itself, the term has been used by others to describe Derrida's particular methods of textual criticism, which involved discovering, recognizing, and understanding the underlying—and unspoken and implicit—assumptions, ideas, and frameworks that form the basis for thought and belief, for example, in complicating the ordinary division made between nature and culture. Derrida's deconstruction was drawn mainly from the work of Heidegger and his notion of Destruktion but also from Levinas and his ideas upon the Other." 68.105.46.68 ( talk) 18:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
The article is clearly written in an unencyclopedic style more similar to an argumentative essay. It needs to state in clearly intelligible language what Deconstruction is, who has developed it and how it has been used and criticized. It should not rely on primary sources (i.e. no long quotes or original exegeses of Derrida), but on secondary sources interpreting Derrida and other deconstructionists. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 23:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
How are readers who come to this article after seeing the term deconstruction being used by Anders Behring Breivik and other people who use this type of rhetoric, supposed to read the present article to gain an increased understanding of the issue at hand? __ meco ( talk) 12:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I've heard through the grapevine that there's been some contentious editing, debate, and so on here, between editors who can roughly be put into the Team Derrida and the Team Anti-Derrida camps. I'm encouraging anyone who can write well and in detail on Derrida's ideas and his opinions on other deconstructionists, to add some high-quality research to the Derrida on deconstruction article. It could use expansion, and it's a worthy humanities topic that deserves better analysis on Wikipedia. OttawaAC ( talk) 21:24, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Derrida was a French philosopher, so I checked the French article on deconstruction which is simple and maybe too short...
French introduction for "Deconstruction": "La déconstruction est une méthode, voire une école, de la philosophie contemporaine. Cette pratique d'analyse textuelle s'exerce sur de nombreux types d'écrits (philosophie, littérature, journaux), pour révéler les décalages et confusions de sens qu'ils font apparaître par une lecture centrée sur les postulats sous-entendus et les omissions dévoilés par le texte lui-même. Ce concept, participant à la fois de la philosophie et de la littérature, a eu un grand écho aux États-Unis, où il est assimilé à la philosophie postmoderne, et plus globalement à l'approche divergente de la philosophie continentale d'Europe. Si le terme « déconstruction » a d'abord été utilisé par Heidegger, c'est l'œuvre de Derrida qui en a systématisé l'usage et théorisé la pratique."
I translated the French introduction as follow: "Deconstruction is a philosophical methodology for textual analysis that can be applied to different types of works. It is sometimes considered as a school of contemporary philosophy. Deconstruction reveals confusions and shifts of meanings produced by a text during a reading focussed on its suggested suppositions and on its omissions. This concept of philosophy and literature had an important repercussion in the United States where it is assimilated to post-modern philosophy and European continental philosophy. The word "deconstruction" was first used by Heidegger. Derrida systematised the use of the term and theorised the practice of deconstruction."
The French article has 3 parts after the introduction as follow: 1) Heidegger's Deconstruction 2) Derrida's Deconstruction 3) Thinkers influenced by Deconstruction
I think that there is space for improvement in the French version that I find incomplete. However, this introduction has the quality of being informative and easy to understand for anyone. The French Version assumes that Heidegger first used the term "deconstruction", but this statement is false as Heidegger used the German term "Destruktion" which finds a better translation with the word: "Destruction". Hopefully this will help to improve the English version... -- Christophe Krief ( talk) 22:59, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
The primary definition of deconstruction is to break into parts;
de·con·struct (dkn-strkt) tr.v. de·con·struct·ed, de·con·struct·ing, de·con·structs 1. To break down into components; dismantle. 2. To write about or analyze (a literary text, for example), following the tenets of deconstruction.
This article is about the secondary and very specific usage related to Derrida.
Where is the article on deconstruction. In general many things are de-constructed into their components for analysis and not this specific Derrida type of analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.148.52.64 ( talk) 10:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
I read the opening paragraphs and I was confused as to what this word/idea means, as it seems to be fairly poorly written. I propose that is should be rewritten to focus on the meaning, preferably in laymen terms, and move the historical stuff later (it shouldn't "bury the lead" like it does currently). I think that focusing on the history first rather than explaining what the idea means, suggests that the idea is no longer relevant to modern thought, which is misleading. From what I can tell it should be edited as follows, although perhaps someone more familiar with the topic can verify if this is accurate:
"Deconstruction is a form of semiotic analysis, proposed by Jacques Derrida in his 1967 book Of Grammatology. It is a dissection of a text to its components, to understand the values given to each component, both relative to each other component and to the context in which they are placed. This comes from an understanding that when ideas are put into binary opposition, such as in structuralism or Hegelian analysis, there is an implied hierarchy between the two ideas. Deconstruction exposes the way oppositions work and how meaning and values are produced, in order to "create new concepts, [and] to mark their difference and eternal interplay." [2] Deconstruction holds that ( French: it ny apas de hors-texte)"there is nothing outside the text", so that only information and logic from within a given text matters."
Then I think the history (including that Jacques Derrida was a French philosopher) of the term/method should then immediately follow -- as this seems to be important to the development and understanding of what deconstruction is, and possibly the examples of what it is not. I think that organizing it like this would improve the readability of the text significantly. I will also commit these changes to the source article, but I've posted here so that if they get reverted, the proposal can be easily seen by future authors. 68.105.46.68 ( talk) 21:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Ok, above was reverted by talk -- I re-undid it, because it was 4 seconds between posting and reverting. But yeah, someone, maybe a philosophy graduate student, should really take a look at this article. 68.105.46.68 ( talk) 22:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
A philosophy grad is never going to make a normative statement about it. Deconstruction confounds authority to the point of effacing meaning. It is a tool against bad systems of government, but is good and bad, in the sense that oppression can employ it equally against dissent. If you cannot argue with someone on issues, or logic, use deconstructionism to obfuscate discussion ad naseum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamiltek ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
The text of the first paragraph is so poorly written, I almost think it was generated by a computer algorithm. I understand this might be a difficult concept to explain in ordinary, every-day language, but could you at least make the effort in the opening paragraph? WTF...
208.78.149.62 ( talk) 18:54, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I have to agree the article is unintelligible
I came to it seeking an explanation of deconstruction but well. To put it mildly the article fails to supply one. There is a lot of talk but is anyone in a position to amend the text so that an ordinary reader can understand it? 145.64.134.241 ( talk) 15:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC)Drshok
Watch this video and you will find that Derrida himself appears to have difficulties to define clearly the subject: Video of Jacques Derrida attempting to define "Deconstruction". I agree that the article needs to be improved, but the controversy surrounding the subject and the different points of views, different interpretations and approaches from different editors, are making this task impossible. This is only my personal position as some editors think that the article should be preserved in its present form.-- Christophe Krief ( talk) 09:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I will have a look to it next month... I will try to improve it without changing the intended meaning... -- Christophe Krief ( talk) 10:06, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Hello, all:
I recently came to this article to see what it looked like, and I was fairly surprised at how long it was. I understand no one wishes to make a statement on deconstruction in a generalized, reductionist statement, etc. But, there comes a point where too much information provides no information. I want to direct everyone looking to better this article to a lecture on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s8SSilNSXw . Derrida talks of how deconstruction cannot be directly pinned down, as he did for almost his entire career. From what I see, this article tries to pin down deconstruction. I understand the dedication put into this article, but I believe it becomes self-defeating. It also ironically becomes something it wasn't intended to be.
( willsy) 2:55pm 26 September 2012 (GMT)
I believe the above suggestion for substituting the intro for the translation from the French can be a good start. Furthermore, perhaps a simple sentence conveying something like "the actual definition is hard to give[references], but with out being too specific one could say deconstruction is..." could perhaps be a good compromise between those who want to make this article readable by someone and those who insist in deconstruction being "undefinable".
Syats ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:58, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. Though I worry that a statement as simple as "the actual definition is hard to give" is in itself actually anti-deconstruction. Deconstruction is avoidant of definitions. The heart of deconstruction is that language, definitions, and the black/white terms used for both are in fact traps. This article (and any writing about deconstruction) in inherently difficult because, from a deconstructionist point of view, language is the wellspring of reductionist thinking. It seems really important to have an early segment that at least cursorily mentions this paradox in 'defining' deconstruction.
I would also really like to see a segment of important terms in deconstruction such a Différance.
( 3Bliss) 3:15pm 04 January 2013 (GMT)
The article reads as if it is translated without editing for ambiguities and contradictions. The below is a helpful dictionary presentation: deconstruction noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Method of philosophical and literary analysis, derived mainly from the work of Jacques Derrida, that questions the fundamental conceptual distinctions, or “oppositions,” in Western philosophy through a close examination of the language and logic of philosophical and literary texts. Such oppositions are characteristically “binary” and “hierarchical,” involving a pair of terms in which one member of the pair is assumed to be primary or fundamental, the other secondary or derivative; examples include nature/culture, speech/writing, and mind/body. To “deconstruct” an opposition is to explore the tensions and contradictions between the hierarchical ordering assumed in the text and other aspects of the text's meaning, especially its figurative or performative aspects. The deconstruction “displaces” the opposition by showing that neither term is primary; the opposition is a product, or “construction,” of the text rather than something given independently of it. The speech/writing opposition, according to which speech is “present” to the speaker or author and writing “absent,” is a manifestation of what Derrida calls the “logocentrism” of Western culture—i.e., the general assumption that there is a realm of “truth” existing prior to and independent of its representation by linguistic signs. In polemical discussions about intellectual trends of the late 20th century, deconstruction was sometimes used pejoratively to suggest nihilism and frivolous skepticism. In popular usage the term has come to mean a critical dismantling of tradition and traditional modes of thought. See also postmodernism; poststructuralism. wblakesx Wblakesx ( talk) 17:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Any section that is more than 50% direct quotes from primary sources should be summarily deleted. No last meal, no priest, no cigarette, just delete, bang, done. There is wayyy too much first-hand interpretation in this article, and very scanty analysis of secondary sources. It's just sa in this condition. OttawaAC ( talk) 01:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I see I am not the first to be completely confused by the introduction, but it has not improved. Would someone who understands this subject provide a clear, concise summary? Thank you.
The introductions by Chrisophe Krief and Settdigger were comprehensible and an improvement on the current state. Why were they reverted?
108.49.162.160 ( talk) 20:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
In this page Derrida states that the occidental history of sign is essentially theological and that we must abandon these roots to shake our cultural inheritance. Derrida starts a metaphysical approach of semiology. He states that the concept of sign and deconstruction work are always exposed to misunderstanding. He uses the term "méconnaissance" probably in reference to Jacques Lacan who rejected the belief that reality can be captured in language. In the same page Derrida states that he will try to demonstrate that there is no linguistic sign without writing.
The "Deconstruction" in Derrida's "Of Grammatology" relates essentially to understanding the idea of logos and its influences on occidental philosophy. Derrida criticizes Rousseau (Etudes sur l'origine des langues" and Saussure for their belief that writing is only a recording of the speech. Derrida believes that writing has its own existence, he uses Researches from Peirce to make his point....[...] I have stopped page 70 of the 425 pages. This is my second reading of this research from Derrida. My first reading was in 1995. I am taking notes relevant to "Deconstruction" in order to help improving this article.-- Christophe Krief ( talk) 21:23, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
If no objection by 29 April 2013. I will remove the tag " The lead section of this article may need to be rewritten." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christophe Krief ( talk • contribs) 10:21, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok. Personally only "Over-quotation" makes sense here...someone should try to paraphrase it (it looks clear to me and it doesn't look personal opinions, only Derrida quotes). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.152.138.92 ( talk) 10:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)