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Hi everyone, I'm adding this entry at the top because I've just made a significant change to the page by adding the new section "Deconstruction in Relation to Structuralism and Poststructuralism" 18/10/07. I'm working to improve the page but rather than begin by reworking the confused material that's already there I've begun by adding some much needed new material that works closely with Derrida's own writings. Derrida can be explained, it just takes care and attention to what he has written. This section, as I've just created it, is currently based entirely on Derrida's "Letter to a Japanese Friend". I'm going to exhaust the usefulness of this text as a source before moving onto interviews and finally Cristina Howells excellent account of deconstruction in "Derrida: Deconstruction from phenomenology to ethics" but if anyone wants to jump on board the revamp and is familiar with these or other relevant texts then get going! My next edit will be a slight tweak of this new section but this is enough for today :0) Seferin 16:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I expanded this section with an improved explanation of the structural problematic with textual support from Derrida's "'Structure and Genesis' and Phenomenology". Seferin ( talk) 00:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The old section "What deconstruction is not" is reproduced below to preserved as a record below as I'm replacing it with the new section "Derrida's Negative Descriptions of Deconstruction". The reason that the old section is being replaced is because it is confusing to say that "deconstruction is not a method, an act, or an operation" without any explanation of why Derrida would say this or what Derrida means when he says this. The quote from Barbara Johnson is great but as it is secondary material it should be reincorporated in the article further down. The statement that "deconstruction is not an apple, a packet of Oreos..." is irrelevant and fails to take the explanation of the subject of the article seriously. It is too early in the article to give detractors descriptions of deconstruction before putting forward an explanation of deconstruction by its advocates so the notes on relativism and nihilism might be better placed later in the article in a "Controversy" section. They could be reincorporated into the new section if someone finds a quote from Derrida denying that deconstruction is the same as relativism or nihilism. The new section is designed to work more closely with quotations from Derrida's writing on deconstruction and provide a new depth to the explanation by indicating the limits of Derrida's negative descriptions, ie. that while Derrida says that deconstruction is not a critique he does not mean that deconstruction has absolutely nothing in common with what is termed critique...I'm working on sections to explain exactly in what way deconstruction is not a critique in the technical sense but this is technical and difficult work. Seferin ( talk) 21:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC) Here's the old section "What deconstruction is not":
It is easier to explain what deconstruction is not than what it is. According to Derrida, deconstruction is not an analysis, nor a critique, a method, an act, or an operation (Derrida, 1985, p. 3). Deconstruction is also not an apple, a packet of Oreos or the smudges created by left-handed deconstructionist authors (although some debate the latter). citation needed Further, deconstruction is not, properly speaking, a synonym for "destruction". Rather, according to Barbara Johnson (1981), it is a specific kind of analytical "reading":
“ Deconstruction is in fact much closer to the original meaning of the word 'analysis' itself, which etymologically means "to undo" — a virtual synonym for "to de-construct." ... If anything is destroyed in a deconstructive reading, it is not the text, but the claim to unequivocal domination of one mode of signifying over another. A deconstructive reading is a reading which analyzes the specificity of a text's critical difference from itself. ” Some detractors claim deconstruction amounts to little more than nihilism or relativism. Relativism consists of various theories each of which claims that some element or aspect of experience or culture is relative to, i.e., dependent on, some other element or aspect. For example, some relativists claim that humans can understand and evaluate beliefs and behaviors only in terms of their historical or cultural context. The term often refers to truth relativism, which is the doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is always relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language or a culture. Its proponents deny this; it is not the abandonment of all meaning, but attempts to demonstrate that Western thought has not satisfied its quest for a " transcendental signifier" that will give meaning to all other signs. According to Derrida, "Deconstruction is not an enclosure in nothingness, but an openness to the other" (Derrida, 1984, p. 124), and an attempt "to discover the non-place or non-lieu which would be that 'other' of philosophy" (ibid. p. 112).
I've added a new section on the development of Derrida's deconstruction in relation to Husserl's philosophy. This section isn't supposed to account for the whole origins of deconstruction as this would over emphasise Husserl influence on Derrida with a consequent de-emphasis on the actual importance of Heidegger and Hegel in the formation of Derrida's philosophy of deconstruction. New sections developing the importance of Heidegger and Hegel in the origins of deconstruction should be developed to complement the section on Husserl. Seferin ( talk) 03:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've replaced the old section "Text and Deconstruction" while attempting to reincorporate useful material from the old section into the new one. I reproduce the old section below in case anyone wants to compare the two or attempt to reincorporate more material from the old section Seferin ( talk) 16:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Text and deconstruction
According to deconstructive readers, one of the phallogocentrisms of modernism is the distinction between speech ( logos) and writing, with writing historically being thought of as derivative to logos. As part of subverting the presumed dominance of logos over text, Derrida argued that the idea of a speech-writing dichotomy contains within it the idea of a very expansive view of textuality that subsumes both speech and writing. According to Jacques Derrida, "There is nothing outside of the text" (Derrida, 1976, at 158). That is, text is thought of not merely as linear writing derived from speech, but any form of depiction, marking, or storage, including the marking of the human brain by the process of cognition or by the senses.
In a sense, deconstruction is simply a way to read text (as broadly defined); any deconstruction has a text as its object and subject. This accounts for deconstruction's broad cross-disciplinary scope. Deconstruction has been applied to literature, art, architecture, science, mathematics, philosophy, and psychology, and any other disciplines that can be thought of as involving the act of marking.
In deconstruction, text can be thought of as "dead", in the sense that once the markings are made, the markings remain in suspended animation and do not change in themselves. Thus, what an author says about his text doesn't revive it, and is just another text commenting on the original, along with the commentary of others. In this view, when an author says, "You have understood my work perfectly," this utterance constitutes an addition to the textual system, along with what the reader said was understood in and about the original text, and not a resuscitation of the original dead text. The reader has an opinion, the author has an opinion. Communication is possible not because the text has a transcendental signification, but because the brain tissue of the author contains similar "markings" as the brain tissue of the reader. These brain markings, however, are unstable and fragmentary.
I've also moved the article revision immediately preceding my rewrite tag into
Deconstruction/Archive1.
Buffyg 21:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Hey, sorry but I'm not sure where to put this comment on an already cluttered page -- You (We... whoever) might want to rethink keeping the stuff about the Sokal hoax in this article. I'm not trying to sweep the hoax under the rug or anything, but it actually has very little to do with Derrida and deconstruction. Sokal did name-drop Derrida (I think) in his original article for Social Text, but the critique that followed had more to do with other theorists -- Lacan, Latour, Deleuze, Kristeva -- who had appropriated a lot of pseudo-science into their writing. Derrida has written a little bit about technology as a reaction to Heidegger's thinking on the subject; I think he was also asked during a lecture whether or not his theories could be compared to Einstein's theory of relativity, and he said something like, "Sure, why not" -- but, anyway, my point here is that Derrida/deconstruction wasn't really a target of the Sokal hoax; that Derrida really hasn't made much use of any kind of science in his writing. Now, I know a lot of people see Derrida/deconstruction as a stand-in for a whole set of theories and thought that WAS the target of the Sokal hoax, and that this fact means we should include something about the Sokal hoax, which is fine with me, but Derrida's relationship to it should be made clearer in the article.
Oh, and just so it's not assumed that I'm some pedantic apologist for deconstruction (I'm not), I think the wiki article is lacking in links/summaries of some of the best critiques of deconstruction, i.e. the serious ones from Anglo-American philosophers. A run-down of the Derrida/Searle debate that goes through their respective arguments point by point would be immensely helpful to anyone trying to understand deconstruction's relation to Anglo-American philosophy. Also, something about J. Claude Evans's book, "Strategies of Deconstruction" (I think that's what it's called) is absolutely necessary here. Evans critiques Derrida's early reading of Husserl, and talks about just what it means to discover "inconsistencies" in a philosophical argument and finds Derrida's claim that he has done so wanting. (Mr. W.H. -- October 2005)
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It's been a while since I read the Derrida article, and I have to say, Buffyg, it's getting to be really good, particularly in its historical context of deconstruction. If we could end up with something like that historical context here, I'd be very pleased. One thing I think we need to end up with in addition to the above list is a good set of examples of deconstruction, and I think some of the best examples of deconstruction are connected to the concepts Derrida explored in relation to his new lexicon of such terms as (différance, trace, écriture, pharmakon, etc.) Of course, I don't think the article should just be a dictionary of Derrida's terminology, the way section 4 now reads, but I think these terms can be framed as good examples of deconstruction, much more so than the example of Derrida's reading of Lévi-Strauss (which now composes section 5). COGDEN 21:33, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
As a "civilian", I thought I should chime in. I am an engineer and a modernist, and I suppose I see things from what you would consider a drastically different world view. I think three things should be added to the to-do list:
- Casito⇝ Talk 03:30, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
In response to Casito about an easy to understand definition. The average person would not understand this definition but 'does' know what deconstruction is. I will give an example of a definition that I believe would be understandable, and fit with the definition of most people who have been exposed to it. (other than deconstructionists themselves) :)
Fascetiously yours,
--
Darkfred
Talk to me
17:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm new to wikipedia but have a long history with Deconstruction and the writings of Derrida. there are many problems with the article for example it takes sides so quickly. the second sentence reads ""deconstruction" is a kind of interpertation that argues for what its practitioners regard as the impossibility of a complete or even coherent understanding of a text". So right off the bat deconstruction is defined as a type of interpertation. First of all this is a possibility that Derrida frequently denied. Second, the idea that deconstruction starts with an assumption of the impossibility of understanding is false. Through much of his work Derrida reveals the metaphysical apratus at work supporting what is understood as a complete / coherent meaning; but derrida's deconstructive texts do not propose this as a founding assumption, or starting point.
The article also spends too much time describing why deconstruction can not be defined, and puts far too much emphasis on the debates about deconstruction over the past 35 years. Deconstruction is not hard to define if one starts with the relationship between Derrida and Heidegger and how Derrida was extending a specific aspect of Heidegger's work on being to his own work on language. The first 20 pages of Of Grammatology are the perfect case in point. I think the article should start with this kind of definition / historical perspective that describes Derrida's use of the term as his way of writing through Heidegger to address the metaphysics of presence as found in language. this would be both historicaly accurate and would define the concept in a way that would be free from the overtly political claims that define the article as it is written.
From there the article could define the reception of Deconstruction in America that radically changed it from a structural function of the history of metaphysics within wester philosophy to an approach to the reading of literary texts. From there I think it could examine architecture and critical legal studies- perhaps the place where deconstruction in the way Derrida used the term returns as a form of neo-pragmitism. Of course later the article can address the use of the term in contemporary culture and some of the debates that surround it. Saving the debates for later in the article is essential if the article strives to be fair and to actually define the term. -Douglas Hunter 11/21/05
Just jumping in here: as a novice, the first paragraph (as written as of my timestamp) seems like a perfectly reasonable introduction. 141.154.100.194 21:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
No indication that such a scholar exists as previously cited or that his opinions are notable and competence in the subject matter established. The only result for the last name and linguistics on Google is this article. Broader searches point to such a person studying for a Ph.D. in ESL instruction at Bharathiar Univeristy, Tamilnadu, India, with a further interest in English grammar. Even with a citation, I'm tend to think notability needs to be established. I believe this is intended to be vandalism by way of a subtle hoax. I will note this on Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress page and the talk page of the user who made the edit. Buffyg 19:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
From r.m.bharanithran
because of misunderstanding ( misunderstnding of deconstruction )i have committed a crime .mistake sir.really i came to know now that i have committed my mistake, please frogive me sir and pardon me sir for my mistake.could you please withdraw vandalism report sir.
TO Adminstraor/concerned officals of wikipeida/ and the public and general readers
VANDALISM REGARDING DECONSTRUCTION.
Could please remove my name sir ?. I realise my mistake by giving an wrong information.
When I browse through internet, I by chance came to know that I have vandalised an artile “deconstruction”.It was not an deliberate attempt.i did it in order to imporve our project or improve wikipeida.but now I come to know that infromation given by me is wrong.Hence I have committed a mistake ,blunder, crime for which I am extremly extremly sorry sir.Would you please pardon and frogive me sir? For the mistake and crime I commit.in future I will not commit such kind of mistakes.i kindly and humbly request you sir to forigve and pardon me sir.Again I kindly and humbly request you to remove my name on pages of vandalism.i realised my mistake.
I kindly and humbly request you to remove my name from vandalism list. Somebody should help me to remove my name.please do that for me sir.
Whom should I contact to remove my name from vnadalism list. I want my name to be removed from vandalisim list( deconstruction R.m.bharanitharan)immediaetely.There will be a danger to my profession if my name appears on the pages of wkipeidia vandalism list.Hnece i kindlly rewuest you to remove my name form vandalism list(deconstruction r.m.bharanitharan).i will be sent out of my profession if my name appears on the pages of wikipedia vandalisim list. so pleae help me by removing my name.
By bharanitharan
my email; noamchomsky@rediffmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by BHARANITHARAN R.M. ( talk • contribs) 04:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Alan Sokal, and countless other benighted physicists, would be very "relieved" to learn that that which he wrote about quantum gravity was not actually nonsense.
There is nothing to justify the selection of these links. Wikipedia is not a web directory; there is no obligation to include links that purport to be about a particular subject. These links are written by people with no demonstrable understanding of the subject; in fact, these are links by people either complaining that they do not understand deconstruction or documenting that this is the case. Take the following quotations from the Locke essay:
So that's the origin of the Sokal hoax, publishing a hoax in a "deconstructionist magazine" (which it certainly was not; I can pull a cite where Ross says that he wasn't comfortable with some of the Derrida and Lacan cites because he didn't want to get involved in pomo polemics — I'm not aware of deconstruction ever having a mouthpiece journal). This isn't criticism, this is howling at the moon by someone who read a book by someone who read a book by someone who obviously doesn't like deconstruction: that's about how garbled the above characterisations are.
Then's there's Morningstar:
This may be a cut above (he read Culler, then some unspecified other works, possibly including Derrida given the reference by name, then alt.postmodernism; I suspect that the last is where the most bizarre bits above come in). Still barking as far as far as his account of deconstruction goes.
Since when does Wikipedia authorise these in its external link guidelines? I'll tell you what sections of the guideline doc wouldn't cover these:
As for the following:
These links do not further substantiate any point of view presented in the article, and their POV is not given any critical commentary. It could be reasonably argued that what is being discussed in these links is not the subject of the deconstruction entry, including the criticism. To the extent that it represents rather than misrepesent anything in the article under the heading of criticism, it represents it so poorly as to bring discredit, which amounts to POV-injection by straw man argument. Buffyg 22:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I reverted simply in order to restore some balance into an otherwise overly sympathetic list. I didn't really expect the edit to incite sufficient passion to inspire a thousand words. But that might go part way to explain why this article remains moribund after so long.
I don't find the reasons given for removal very convincing. Chomsky openly admits his "utter ignorance" of deconstruction, but his criticism remains in the article. Nor is it sufficient simply to claim that the writers are "ill-informed", without being at all specific. The present article certainly does nothing to explain how Morningstar and Locke are mistaken.
Both articles reflect common criticisms: Locke is a nice example of the flaky Right's view that Deconstruction is a tool of the flaky Left; Morningstar's of the scientistic view that Deconstruction shows the poverty of Humanities over Science. If neither view is expressed in the article, then that is a problem for the article.
But neither reference is especially good. I am not interested enough to push the point. The article as it stands continues to be quite disappointing. Banno 08:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi I'm a grade twelve student from Queensland, Australia. I was just wondering if anyone here was aware that "the constructedness of texts" plays a very large part in my state's senior English curriculum.
I came onto Wikipedia hoping to find an article that could help me seeming as though I'm failing the subject (the subject being a prerequisite to every single uni course there is). What shocked me though, was that there's so much criticism of this theory. They teach this stuff as absolute fact at school (though I obviously don't get much of it).
If we consider a subject like Biology, you can be pretty sure that creationism has absolutely nothing over Darwin's theory. This is obviously not the case with English though since there are so many criticisms of deconstruction.
So, should deconstruction be taught in high schools? Also, is this a world-wide thing or is it just my state?
I'd hoped that if the "chickenness"example was unsatisfactory, someone would supply one that isn't. The abstruse concept of "trace" requires at least one example.
Here's another question for you. Is this Wikipedia entry *about* deconstruction, or just a bunch of people bashing it? Andy 21:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Rather than write this out again--I'm going to repost some slightly edited comments from a usertalk discussion with a contributer to the Deconstruction article. It is as follows....
I've sporadically followed the evolution of the Deconstruction article for several years-- so I know you are a major contributer. I have a minor complaint about the article--over those years there is constant mention of something along these lines....
“there is a cottage industry of writers of variably explicit sympathy or antipathy to DECONSTRUCTION as they understand it who offer what they believe are programmatic characterizations in an effort to help those reluctant to read DECONSTRUCTION texts understand it.... “
Question: How does this statement add value to the article?
Answer: I don't believe it does. Every notable subject in the human experience gets subsequent critique and very often misrepresented and misquoted. Despite Deconstruction's take on this “effect” – it is no exception and holds no special status in that regard. To demonstrate my point of unnecessary text-- imagine we substituted “communism” or “laissez faire capitalism” instead of DECONSTRUCTION in quoted text above.
I think the reason why “cottage industry” type comments keep creeping into the article is because of personal biases of some recurring contributor (probably just intellectual snobbery). It has no place in the article and unnecessarily alienates readers.
Aloof comments of this sort always do a disservice to any subject matter as it belittles the people that explore the concepts--or even think they do. The article should not be a critique or indictment of people that write about Deconstruction (or even a skewed perception of it). This is especially forgivable considering the subject matter and the nature of Derrida himself. What really irks me about sophomoric comments like this is that Derrida's own books are the definitive authority for his views-- not a Wikipedia article written by “cottage industry” writers.
Therefore I propose that the criticism section is adequate for describing general alternate viewpoints/complaints with regards to Deconstuction--and any references of this sort be removed from the article unless empirical academically reviewed evidence can be offered that demonstrates Deconstruction somehow has more quacks than other subjects (something the comment implies)
..
Any how, the contributer disagreed with my assessment and stated that it is "indisputably true". I countered that I wished to dispute this “truth”. We mutually agreed it would be better to continue the debate here. So here I am.
Therefore I request empirical evidence from some credible non-Wikipedia peer reviewed source if anyone feels the statements should remain. Should evidence of some sort be provided or anyone disagree with my reasoning (regarding the need for a shred of emperical or peer review evidence for such statements)--I am open for discussion. However, if no attempt is made, I will make the edit after a two week period as I view this as a subjective seat-o-the-pants emotional opinion on a touchy subject— not remotely a fact.
Without evidence to support the case, if it is changed back afterwards I will assume this is a self-fulfilling prophesy of “cottage industry” writers taking control and I will leave the article in their hands.
In accordance to how I read Wikipedia NPOV, the onus of inclusion of a fact within an article is for the contributor to provide credible proof---not for me to disprove. Although I sympathize with the plight of any article that wishes to be true to its pedigree (especially one as complex as Deconstruction) it seems reasonable and polite that it should follow the rules of the Wikipedia house. (Nov. 7, 2005 Anon.)
This quote from the article: "yet in Derrida's view, "meaning" itself is a form of text,..." : could be improved to " "meaning" obeys the same rules of textuality as the text itself, ..." . It has to be stessed, what does deconstructing different to (and more than ) interpreting does. So it is the many possible ways of reading a text, given a time, a language, and a cultural background within.
The notion of trace gives the assertion that there is such a textuality. As far as I read Derrida, the notion of trace is one big unfinished part of his philosophy, and he probably relies heavily on Levinas here.
I would like to propose to delete the current intro and replace it with the following intro:
Looking forward to your comments-- Jahsonic 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Can someone who is more familiar with this subject than I am expand or clarify the section on hymen? The paragraph as currently written is absolute gibberish. The section on pharmakon is less gibberish, but still lacks anything that puts it in context in this subject, i.e. why it's relevant. YBeayf 05:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
That deconstruction isn't relativistic. Since one interpretation of a given text is as good as another (due to the supposed less of foundation upon which metaphysics is built) the result is an intellectual demolition of most disciplines : science, logic, history, mathematics (etc). If you 'decenter', as Derrida might put it, absolute or objective claims, then you have "relativism" in all shapes and sizes. If there is a distinction to be had here that I am overlooking somewhat, then please present it to me.
Please bear in mind however that your response as such is guilty of phallogocentrism, a preference of the phallus over the female genitalia and that I may have to deconstruct your reply in order to grant equality to the 'Other'. Don't say I didn't warn you.--
Knucmo2
23:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, Derrida has never argued that "one interpretation of a text is as good as another" --
Q: It might be argued that deconstruction inevitably leads to pluralist interpretation and ultimately to the view that any interpretation is as good as any other. Do you believe this and how do you select some interpretations as being better than others?
[Derrida]: I am not a pluralist and I would never say that every interpretation is equal...
He goes on to detail his method for selecting quotations, some thoughts on Nietzsche, etc. This is from "Literary Review" (Vol 14.18 April - 1 May (1980):21-22) if you want to read the whole thing.
Deconstruction says nothing of the value or significance of different interpretations. That is the whole point of deconstruction. Rather, deconstruction says that this exact ancient desire to 'measure' one interpretation (or signifier, or whatever) against another is unjustified. Different signifiers are different and do bear different significance, but this significance is not something that can be measured on an objective scale - not even in terms of equals. The difference is subtle but (philosophically) significant. -- AndersFeder 03:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm unsure if I overlooked the citations, but when I read the article, there is alot of talk about the critics of deconstruction and though two names are mentioned (rorty and chomsky) I am still left wondering who all these critics are and what their names and works are. If I've somehow overlooked something, I apologize. Thank. DanteDanti 19 June 2006
I always felt that Deconstructionism was the greatest intellectual magic trick ever pulled, rivaled only by Scientology. No one can see that the emperor truely has no clothes, and interestingly enough the moment its criticised - it falls apart, and even more interesting - is when this point is brought up - a deconstructionist replies with "EXACTLY!" This seems like such a rediculous recursive childs' game, that it's most certainly not worth playing. Now, the very fact that there are pages and pages of rambling going on about what Deconstructionism is/isn't, should clearly show that it was a drug-induced theory to begin with, and is on par with "what if we are really just atoms in a larger being...whoa.." Sometimes that which is preceived as brilliant is really just idiocy with a new marketing director. To compare Deconstructionism to the likes of Merlou Ponty or Heidegger is like compareing stereo instructions to TS Eliot...the only commonality is that the both at times, use words.
By the way, whomever wrote the piece on Heidegger - has never studied Heidegger with any scholar of any kind, or if they had - then they clearly fell asleep when the important stuff was being discussed...
Also - I can't spell, I know this - but it is in no way indicative of my process of thought - so if that is all you have to go on for a valid criticism of my very terse set of comments above - try again. Capolan 01 February 2006
geeman 28 June 2006
I'd like to see the whole article mercilessly copyedited for clarity and simplicity of expression, before any substantive changes are made. I've done this with one section - as best I can. I won't go any further for now, because what I've done is probably already controversial. If someone wants to revert it, I won't lose sleep, though I'd hope that it's possible to improve the new version rather than simply throw my work away.
In any event, it's offered as a possible approach. Of course, the subject matter is intrinsically difficult, so even the section I've tackled is still not a super easy read... If people think I haven't entirely wasted my time, I'm prepared to do more of this on other sections. Metamagician3000 03:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I find that I'm in a bind. Like most I feel that this article is not satisfactory. After reading through this talk page, I suspect that a large part of the problem with the article is that many of the contributors demonstrate contempt for the subject. And while I certainly don't contend that someone has to be wholly or even partially in agreement with a subject in order to write a quality encyclopedia article, I do think that it is an extremely difficult task when someone thinks that the subject simply has no value whatsoever. To the people who contend that deconstruction is merely "intellectual masturbation", or that deconstruction is so worthless as to not deserve an article, I question what additions of value they could add to an article like this. I invite criticism of any topic, an indeed there is more in the article to criticize decon than to argue in favor of it. But Wikipedia is not supposed to pass summary judgements of controversial subjects; and if only those who want to mock and degrade deconstruction post here, how can any neutral point of view be created?
Back to my bind: I keep reading the posts of previous editors to this talk page and wanting to respond to their criticisms of decon. But I know that doing so is contrary to the point of a talk page, which is a discussion about how best to create an accurate encyclopedia article, not a forum for debating the merits of the subject. So you see my dilemma. I do feel that there are some serious misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of deconstruction that are taking place which are hindering the creation of a quality article. All that I will say in this space in defense of decon is this: that most of the arguments against it are circular. Decon at times subverts traditional rationality and logic (some would say Aristotlean rationality) in order to better understand the ways in which rational arguments are constructed, to see the frameworks which make rationality possible. By refusing to step outside of classic rationality in order to understand decon, its critics assume as a starting point the very assumptions which decon hopes to question.
I'm willing to take on some of the editing that people are in agreement needs to be done (and will be no doubt savagely edited myself :) ). Right now I'm on vacation, so I don't have access to my books and journal articles that I would need to cite in order to provide references. I'll be home on the 18 and hope to get started then. Freddie deBoer 03:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me as congruent with deconstruction to include the context of the creation of the article, and the evolution of thought that led to its development, as an ongoing and alive link to perhaps a summary of the stages of development of the article. With Wikipedia then, there might want to be a history of the article as part of the article with links to all prior versions and rationale for change. This idea allows the idea of deconstruction to remain alive to new thinking, and not die with Derrida et. al. -- Cdonnan 16:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)cdonnan
In the realm of Deconstruction, one must view langauge as something which is both differential and differed. This view towards language builds into a concept that Derrida calls différance.(Here I am not trying to define différance, which would be an inane understaking or even explain it as a stand-alone type entity, which can be done at a later point, but rather provide insight into Deconstructions relationship to language. Thus one should not see this as différance means "to be deferred and differential," but rather much like the word, the idea of différance is based on the concepts of language being differed and differential). When one speaks about différance, this is an allusion to the idea that language is an unlimited semiosis, in which meaning can never be said to have a confined self-presence. Language then is thought to be both differential, built upon constrasting negative relations, and differed, infinitely passed thorugh a series of linguistic substitutions and displacements.
I find it very interesting to note that the entire concept of Derrida's Khôra has been completely overlooked. For those who are familiar with this term, I find it quite difficult to come to terms with the idea that this concept has not yet been mentioned as even a potential addition to the article. To me, Derrida's work with the khôra offers an overwhelming legitimization to his philosophy and work in Deconstruction. The khôra offers one an opportunity to come face-to-face with a true deconstructive reading of a classical text. In his Decontruction of Plato's Timaeus, Derrida attempts to prove to his reader that, "the most radically decontructed motifs are at work 'in' what is called the Platonic, Cartesian, Kantian text." For those not familiar with khôra, here is a very brief summary. Derrida, in his work with classical literary/philosophical text, comes upon a topic in Plato's Timaeus, which is customarily overlooked in traditional readings, being swallowed by the wave of what Derrida calls, "The Philosophy of Plato," Platonism. Platonism being the "dominant" result of Plato's writing, the other voices and effects at work in his work typically are shut out or swallowed up in the name of Platonism. Khôra is a concept at work in Plato's Timaeus that starkly contrasts "The Philosophy of Plato," or Platonism and is typically cast aside. Khôra is neither a intelligible form or a sensible thing, but rather a receptacle, a concept which goes against the framework of Platonism. -- BorommakotTesshu 11:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
(Saussure’s Course in General Linguistics), anthropology (Lévi-Strauss’s Tristes Tropiques), and philosophy (Rousseau’s Essay on the Origin of Languages) I believe that many people fail to grasp the importance or significance of Deconstruction, mainly because they have been unable to come face to face with its actualization and application and are instead typically mired down in the details of defining and understanding its theories and ideas as stand-alone entities. Although much emphasis should be placed on the theoris and more abstract ideas of Deconstruction, ear should also be given to the more concrete examples of how Deonctructive readings may be applied. One example of this is Derrida's work with the Khôra, which I mentioned above. Some more examples follow and would be interesting to see some people take up some of these:
The section "lack of seriousness and transparency" concludes with the following paragraph:
One might say the same thing about the apparently unintuitive axioms of Non-Euclidean Geometry-- that they just do not make sense. Yet, these same (for some bizarre) theories end up being useful in understanding space near matter. Accepting what at first blush may seem to be "illogic" for the scientific positivist may be necessary in understanding deconstruction as well.
I must protest the analogy. The only possible criticism of non-euclidean geometry is that we may not see how its axioms can be true of the world. To have this inability, we must first be able to aprehend their meaning in some way. However, the detractors of deconstructionism claim they cannot even understand what is being said in postmodernist (or whichever umbrella term) discourse. To conflate these two very distinct phenomena — not seeing how a sentence can be true, and not understanding a sentence at all — into "does not make sense" is sloppy, as is the implicit assertion that mathematics is "illogic". I propose to erase the paragraph entirely. Pietro KC 07:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
There really isn't much about how deconstruction might be useful to a literary critic - which could presumably be used to bring balance to the idea that deconstruction is nihilism - and perhaps provide an example that some people have suggested. For example, we might show how Shakespeare in Othello sets up symbolic dichotomies with the opposition between white and black, darkness and light, life and death, but then perhaps shows these to be hierarchized - so that the white Iago turns out to be evil, and the suspected Moor demonstrates himself, at least at first, to be reasoned and honourable. That might not be the best example, but at least it shows the deconstructive move, which we might find difficult to define.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.67.10.115 ( talk • contribs) .
Falsehood: Why does the association of Nazi followers such as Heidegger with deconstructionist dissociate it from the political left wing? The NSDAP were very clearly left-wing in their political beliefs, and the continued mis-association of them with the political right baffles me.—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
209.63.179.228 (
talk)
I was just trying to add a language and when I saved part of the text was erased. It was some bug, not vandalism.
I think before adding to the criticism section, editors should take the time to read the wiki pages on other contemporary philosophers of similar stature. I've noticed that several editors who have some sort of beef with post(modernism/structuralism/whatever) like to repeatedly expand upon and argue about the criticism sections of this page, Deconstructionism, Jacques Lacan, and a couple others. Often, these sections include a summary of polemical exchanges between these figures (or their contemporary supporters), and either analytic philosophers or random famous people who don't like post(modernism/structuralism/whatever). However, on the pages of the same luminaries who offered these devestating critiques of post-x, the fact that they did so is not even mentioned.
Example 1: while some find it necessary to include Noam Chomsky claiming to be unable to understand Jacques Lacan as a valid criticism of Lacan, no one sees fit to add any Lacanian (or Saussrian) critics to Noam Chomsky. Furthermore, while Chomsky has been invovled in numerous polemical debates with various academic figures (including John Searle, see ex. 2), few have found their way to the Chomsky article. Example 2: While the 1974 debate between Jacques Derrida and John Searle is referred to extensively on Jacques Derrida, it does not appear on John Searle Example 3: While all of the 'canonical' figures of 'continental philosophy' eg: Martin Heidegger Jean-Paul Sartre Sigmund Freud Friederich Nietzche (the list goes on and on) have a numbered, bulleted, at least paragraph long section of criticism, none of the 'canonical' figures of analytic philosophy enjoy such careful scrutiny on wikipedia. As it stands, a curious scholar would find that absolutely no one has ever written a single critical word toward Bertrand Russell, Gottlob Frege, Willard Van Orman Quine, AJ Ayer, George Edward Moore, J.L. Austin, Rudolf Carnap, the Vienna Circle or basically any analytic philosopher who is living or has ever lived.
Suggestion based on above examples: please do not claim that poorly cited or sourced, unnotable, or generally dismissive criticisms of post-x need to be included on post-x wikipages to give a 'balanced' point of view. It is obvious that extensive reproduction of critical reception is not part of the general practice of reporting on philosophical movements in wikipedia. I also seem to recall that it is wiki policy to have an international viewpoint as much as possible. Given that the 'criticisms' sections in all of the abovementioned cases are focused entirely on anglo-american criticisms of european philosophers, one would think that this policy is being misapplied. When I get around to it, seeing no evidence provided against my assertions here, I will be extensively trimming and changing the criticism sections on all of these pages to make them more reflective of the rest of wikipedia Jimmyq2305 22:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Jimmyq2305 04:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Absurdity par excellence. Chases its own tail, trying pathetically to find something concrete in language it can hold on to, can be sure of.
--Actually, that's just about the opposite of decon. Don't criticize what you don't understand. 64.251.50.50 13:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I found this remark to be bad: In addition, despite what Derrida's many detractors claim, deconstruction is not the same as nihilism or relativism. It is not [..] and changed it to: Some detractors claim deconstruction amounts to little more than nihilism or relativism. Its proponents deny this; It is not [..]
It's non-NPOV, basically stating the proponent opinion as fact, and the opponent opinion as if it were neutrally and factually false. Further, it's an overly strong statement, implying all Derrida's detractors claim this (unlikely) and also an overly specific characterization of their claims (exactly the same?).
I'm not 100% happy with the change, since it introduces the weasel-word "Some detractors..". But it's at least correct and neutral. Obviously not an insignificant number of critics claim this, so it's not misleading at least. I don't think a reference is necessary for this? I'd consider it to be general knowlege on the subject, more or less.
(The other line was far more amusing though! Someone promoting the deconstructionist POV by asserting one reading is more truthful than another? :) Not to mention citing Derrida's work as authorative? Doesn't that both imply presence and privledge it? ) - 130.237.179.171 22:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I have some problems with the new intro. I think the extra paragraph that was added is reasonable, but the paragraph that was added first is problematic:
First, the first sentence is circular. Deconstruction denotes a process by which texts shift when subjected to deconstruction? How is that helpful? Second, I'm not sure what is gained by the assertion that Derrida can talk more about what deconstruction is not. It is true he did a lot of this, thanks to many people misinterpreting him, but he also did spell out what it is, both in essays and interviews (and, indeed, there are many helpful secondary sources on this point). He also showed what it is through numerous essays that were deconstructive -- if anything, wouldn't it be better to say that he performed deconstruction than that he spoke "more readily" about what it is not? I prefer the previous version of this paragraph to the one added; I think the above is unnecessarily confusing.-- csloat 19:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous editor(s) have been adding a section called Undeconstructability that suggests that there are certain terms that are "undeconstructable", such as hospitality, democracy, friendship, the other, and the future. (Or, I can't tell from the text here, but maybe the POV is that Derrida had a blind-spot in this regard.) This appears to be a view promoted by a group of theologists who see deconstruction as having a utopian "endgame". Certainly this POV should be included in the article, since it appears to be verifiable (and Derrida did write about each of these terms, although personally I thought he was writing about their deconstruction, not the impossibility of their deconstruction), but where should we put this theory? Is anyone else familiar with this school of theo-pomo, or know the extent of their influence? COGDEN 20:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Derrida first wrote about "justice" as undeconstructible in "Force of Law," which is in Acts of Religion, but it is not a theological idea. Note that the undeconstructibility of justice amounts to the statement that deconstruction IS justice. It corresponds, more or less, to the thought of Bernard Stiegler that justice is that which does not exist, but which consists. The relevant quotation from "Force of Law" is on pages 242–3:
"In the structure I am describing here, law is essentially deconstructible, whether because it is founded, that is to say, constructed, upon interpretable and transformable textual strata (and that is the history of law, its possible and necessary transformation, sometimes its amelioration), or because its ultimate foundation is by definition unfounded. The fact that law is deconstructible is not bad news. One may even find in this the political chance of all historical progress. But the paradox that I would like to submit for discussion is the following: it is this deconstructible structure of law or, if you prefer, of justice as law, that also ensures the possibility of deconstruction. Justice in itself, if such a thing exist, outside or beyond law, is not deconstructible. No more than deconstruction itself, if such a thing exist. Deconstruction is justice. It is perhaps because law (which I will therefore consistently try to distinguish from justice) is constructible, in a sense that goes beyond the opposition between convention and nature, it is perhaps insofar as it goes beyond this opposition that it is constructible—and so deconstructible and, better yet, that it makes deconstruction possible, or at least the exercise of a deconstruction that, fundamentally, always proceeds to quesitons of law and to the subject of law. Whence these three propositions:
- 1. The deconstructibility of law (for example) makes deconstruction possible.
- 2. The undeconstructibility of justice also makes deconstruction possible, indeed is inseparable from [se confond avec] it.
- 3. Consequence: Deconstruction takes place in the interval that separates the undeconstructibility of justice from the deconstructibility of law. Deconstruction is possible as an experience of the impossible, there where, even if it does not exist, if it is not present, not yet or never, there is justice [il y a la justice]. Wherever one can replace, translate, determine the X of justice, one would have to say: deconstruction is possible, as impossible, to the extent (there) where there is X (undeconstructible), thus to the extent (there) wherre there is (the undeconstructible).
In other words, the hypothesis and propositions toward which I am tentatively moving here would rather call for the subtitle: justice as the possibility of deconstruction, the structure of right or of the law [la structure du droit ou de la loi], the founding or the self-authorizing of law as the possibility of the exercise of deconstruction."
Mtevfrog 23:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
A gesture toward understanding this: Deconstruction is a way of reading that on the one hand does not hesitate to perpetrate a certain violence in the course of interpretation, while on the other hand attempts to maintain an utmost rigour, that is, an utmost fidelity to the text. What guides deconstruction in this faithful/unfaithful reading? What ensures the justice of deconstructive readings? The point is that there is no final guarantee, that is, what guides the reading cannot be an idea in the Platonic sense, and yet this does not imply that deconstructive readings are wild or arbitrary (no more than any other reading, at least). A deconstruction is always susceptible to another deconstruction, later. In other words, what guides the fidelity or infidelity of deconstruction is faith, but not in an idea or a God as that which exists more than anything else, but rather in justice or deconstruction as such, as that which does not exist but which consists, consists in the sense of being that about which it is possible to have faith, to have belief, but not final certainty. Justice guides interpretation, not as a shining beacon, but as that which we cannot give up believing in if we are to know how to interpret at all, without which we lack the motive to deconstruct, as that which we are struggling to see or grasp in interpreting. Mtevfrog 23:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
To backup my comment above here I include a fuller quote from Spectres of Marx and try and give a fuller summary of Derrida's justice:
(6) The point you make here is merely a reflection of my claim that you are mangling this idea and presenting it for misuse and misleading the reader.
(1) What is the key word here is reduction, it is possible to give an opening description of something without reducing it or simplifying. Its primary duty is in fact to maintain in some way the complexity, I never suggested this would be easy. This article correctly goes into the difficulty of defining deconstruction. This recently added section betrays the main part of the article by coming close to defining deconstruction as justice (that is, justice as ordinarily (ie, from a dictionary) conceived).
(2) You didn't use a dictionary definition but in the first paragraph it is given without any hint that the use of the term justice here is quite far from the dictionary definition.
(3) Deconstruction as you are probably aware is hard to define. Certain aspects of it are obvious in Derrida's discussion of justice. Firstly the term is opposed, by Derrida, to Law (La Droit or Rights), identifying such an opposition is deconstructiive. Secondly it is given as being not fully present, this is also a deconstructive move that harks back to Heidegger's Destruktion of the philosophy of presence.
(4) The difference between undeconstructible and the -ility form is relevant, especially when a noun such as the undeconstructibles is used. Such use returns the words to a pre-deconstructive usage and gives them the very substantial form that Derrida attempts to avoid. This is why, I maintain, he only used the -ible form when giving his cryptic attempt to translate his thought, using erasure, into the old language of metaphysics: "deconstruction is possible, as impossible, to the extent (there) where there is (the undeconstructible)" Most notable, on this issue, is how few times this undeconstructiity(ible) term is used at all in Derrida's writing.
(5) That you didnt intend to give a simple explanation of justice is well and good. I maintain that as the article appears a simple justice, is something a reader of an encyclopedia might assume unless one first points out this critical issue to the reader.
(6) To talk of a huge ethical turn is something of a cliche, but by equating Derrrida's idea of justice to deconstruction, one can see that justice/ethics was there from the beginning. The few uses of this term undeconstructible in the reams of Derrida's writing is the salient issue. It is used a few times in Forces of Law and twice in Spectres of Marx. So should it be given all this space in the brief article. In my opinion he uses the term just to give priority to deconstruction and to promote it as the best, most just, way of interpretation and writing, in that only certain things might be un-deconstructible, those are deconstruction itself, justice insofar as it is already deconstruction. As to democracy and friendship and forgiveness etc. who could say they're normal usage is un-deconstructible. I maintain that in the 90s it was these that were subjected to and informed Derrida's deconstruction of them (and by them). These are the very things that must be open to deconstruction, in other words, "no democracy without deconstruction." If one is suggesting that Derrida reached a stage in deconstructing them which is unsurpassable then this is a point of view but it is not assured. Who might yet say that his idea of forgiveness, for example, is Christian centered and deconstruct it on that basis. Or who might say that his idea of democracy relies upon a Euro-centric and Hegelian world view.
-- Lucas
(3) I presume this last comment comes from Hay4. (3a) To deconstruct as a verb or action or activity or method is used even by yourself in the above youi say, and I quote you: "of the order of constructions to which we may apply deconstructive interpretations". Al the verb means is to apply deconstructive interpretations. So you also use the verb form, decontruction as a kind interpretion, and that is fine, this is what I mean by "to deconstruct". Paul De Man is another issue, though your own school seems to me to emphaisis a pre-deconstructive reading
(4) Justice was decontructed by Derrida, he read it interpreted justice in a way the was deoncstructive. Of course undecontructibility is the very opposite of deconstruction and lets us identify what deconstruction is by giving us its opposing value. I maintain Derrida didnt make a deal of undeconstrucibility cos it is quite obvious, in a way, and so he only mentioned it a few times. Yes we all know he said Justice like deconstruction, had an undeconstructibility, this is not an issue. It is when you apply it as a heading and equate in stasis to a whole slew of terms that it becomes problematic. I already agreed that there is a sense of undeconstructibility to these things but that it is not given that much importance in his writing. Messianism as undecontructible is now your only other "indesctructible", this is hearsay, youi have no backup. Glad to see you see we can now end this discussion and that you drop this reification of indestructibles seen in God, Democracy, Forgiveness, etc.
-- Lucas
From Specters of Marx: "What remains irreducible to any deconstruction, what remains as undeconstructible as the possibility itself of deconstruction, is, perhaps, a certain experience of the emancipatory promise; it is perhaps even the formality of a structural messianism, a messianism without religion, even a messianic without messianism, an idea of justice--which we distinguish from law or right and even from human rights--and an idea of democracy --which we distinguish from its current concept and from its determined predicates today." I hope this helps you. 141.161.127.75 17:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for this quote, it is clear from it that the issue of undecontructibility is very complex and is in a sense "after deconstruction." It clearly doesnt lend itself to simple assertion, like those made in the article addition that provoked this discussion, this is because undeconstructibility is messianic without messianism, without religion. After justice, democracy etc. are deconstructed, what is left is obviously, and only for the time being, undeconstructible, but Derrida's decontructive decision in giving us his idea of Justice, can also be compared to a kind of madness, from a kind of promise, and importantly not given as final, the further deconstruction of justice is part of that promise. Some have written about undeconstructibility, it seems that it is a certain theology that is most at home with any reification of undeconstructibility. It is a failed attempt, perhaps, to re-colonise philosophy by a an old foe and sometime friend. I say keep indestructibles at arms length. -- Lucas
Can anyone provide a citation for 'an inessential extra added to something complete in itself'? Jeangenie14 14:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"The work of Friedrich Nietzsche is alleged to be a forerunner of deconstruction in form and substance, as Derrida writes in Spurs: Nietzsche's Styles." Does this sentence make sense to anyone? Hay4 09:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Is this section a joke? Seriously, it doesn't seem to relate to the rest of the article at all. If so what about "Pharmakon"?-- 213.122.16.139 16:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the comment
Critics of Deconstruction actually complain that deconstructionists are not making enough effort to be clear.
Proponents of D-ism respond D-ism is complex, and that the critics are not making effort to understand. Phrasing the complaint as "lack of simplicity" sides with the proponents. I move that this line should be changed to "Critics of Deconstruction take issue with what they believe is a lack of seriousness, simplicity and clarity in deconstructive writings,"
Critics actually accuse deconstructionists of using a terminology and writing style thats borderline obfuscation in order to hide a philosophy that's actually rather simple in nature. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.223.177.180 (
talk)
10:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
In the "What deconstruction is not" section the article states:
"Some detractors claim deconstruction amounts to little more than nihilism or relativism."
Then in the "Criticisms of deconstruction" section it states:
"In addition, critics often equate deconstruction with nihilism or relativism and criticize deconstruction accordingly."
This seems repetitive.-- Harpakhrad11 18:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
"Thus, meaning is "out there"" - The idea of meaning being 'out there' as a determinate, objective 'thing' to be discovered directly contradicts the very aspect of meaning that deconstruction seeks to exploit. Following Wittgenstein; meaning is merely the correlate to understanding. And understanding is the ability to handle or respond to something in certain accepted ways which are consensually shared, sanctioned, and inculcated by the community, but nevertheless flexible and relative. It is this indeterminacy that allows the dissemination of variant interpretations that deconstruction relies on. I have read very little Derrida, does he really hold such a view? To do so would be immediately self-stultifying.
Having not read Derrida's critique of Levi-Strauss I'm not sure enough to make the edit myself, but based on my reading of that summary it seems that the sentence
should read
??? It seems like it's Levi-Strauss' denial that is being discussed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cabias ( talk • contribs) 20:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
What does "and proved more forthcoming with negative, rather than a pined-for positive, analyses of the school." mean? I realise it's a slippery topic but would be nice if at least the first few sentences were generally accessible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteCat ( talk • contribs) 05:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a brief note: although I take seriously the criticisms others have of the article, for my money, it's actually damned good. I've just encountered the article for the first time, and though it's clearly somewhat patchy and rousingly multivocal, I genuinely feel that, in fifteen minutes of reading, I gathered not a merely technical grasp of deconstruction, but a--how best to word this?--an emotional feel to go with it. To put it bluntly, this article makes me feel like deconstruction might even be worth seriously investigating, for the first time since I came across the term twenty years ago!
So, first: Thank you to all the many contributors who formed the current crazy-quilt. The article may not be ideal, but it has a something that is very fine, and all too rare.
And, second: Please take great care in preserving the implicit pleasure in ideas this article conveys as you continue to enhance it. NPOV is such a persistent and recurring issue that sometimes it seems like we press and press on an article until every drop of juice is squeezed out. I like my Wikipedia NPOV, but I like it best of all when it illustrates the great joy incumbent in the life of the mind. Cheers GPa Hill ( talk) 03:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
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Hi everyone, I'm adding this entry at the top because I've just made a significant change to the page by adding the new section "Deconstruction in Relation to Structuralism and Poststructuralism" 18/10/07. I'm working to improve the page but rather than begin by reworking the confused material that's already there I've begun by adding some much needed new material that works closely with Derrida's own writings. Derrida can be explained, it just takes care and attention to what he has written. This section, as I've just created it, is currently based entirely on Derrida's "Letter to a Japanese Friend". I'm going to exhaust the usefulness of this text as a source before moving onto interviews and finally Cristina Howells excellent account of deconstruction in "Derrida: Deconstruction from phenomenology to ethics" but if anyone wants to jump on board the revamp and is familiar with these or other relevant texts then get going! My next edit will be a slight tweak of this new section but this is enough for today :0) Seferin 16:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I expanded this section with an improved explanation of the structural problematic with textual support from Derrida's "'Structure and Genesis' and Phenomenology". Seferin ( talk) 00:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The old section "What deconstruction is not" is reproduced below to preserved as a record below as I'm replacing it with the new section "Derrida's Negative Descriptions of Deconstruction". The reason that the old section is being replaced is because it is confusing to say that "deconstruction is not a method, an act, or an operation" without any explanation of why Derrida would say this or what Derrida means when he says this. The quote from Barbara Johnson is great but as it is secondary material it should be reincorporated in the article further down. The statement that "deconstruction is not an apple, a packet of Oreos..." is irrelevant and fails to take the explanation of the subject of the article seriously. It is too early in the article to give detractors descriptions of deconstruction before putting forward an explanation of deconstruction by its advocates so the notes on relativism and nihilism might be better placed later in the article in a "Controversy" section. They could be reincorporated into the new section if someone finds a quote from Derrida denying that deconstruction is the same as relativism or nihilism. The new section is designed to work more closely with quotations from Derrida's writing on deconstruction and provide a new depth to the explanation by indicating the limits of Derrida's negative descriptions, ie. that while Derrida says that deconstruction is not a critique he does not mean that deconstruction has absolutely nothing in common with what is termed critique...I'm working on sections to explain exactly in what way deconstruction is not a critique in the technical sense but this is technical and difficult work. Seferin ( talk) 21:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC) Here's the old section "What deconstruction is not":
It is easier to explain what deconstruction is not than what it is. According to Derrida, deconstruction is not an analysis, nor a critique, a method, an act, or an operation (Derrida, 1985, p. 3). Deconstruction is also not an apple, a packet of Oreos or the smudges created by left-handed deconstructionist authors (although some debate the latter). citation needed Further, deconstruction is not, properly speaking, a synonym for "destruction". Rather, according to Barbara Johnson (1981), it is a specific kind of analytical "reading":
“ Deconstruction is in fact much closer to the original meaning of the word 'analysis' itself, which etymologically means "to undo" — a virtual synonym for "to de-construct." ... If anything is destroyed in a deconstructive reading, it is not the text, but the claim to unequivocal domination of one mode of signifying over another. A deconstructive reading is a reading which analyzes the specificity of a text's critical difference from itself. ” Some detractors claim deconstruction amounts to little more than nihilism or relativism. Relativism consists of various theories each of which claims that some element or aspect of experience or culture is relative to, i.e., dependent on, some other element or aspect. For example, some relativists claim that humans can understand and evaluate beliefs and behaviors only in terms of their historical or cultural context. The term often refers to truth relativism, which is the doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is always relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language or a culture. Its proponents deny this; it is not the abandonment of all meaning, but attempts to demonstrate that Western thought has not satisfied its quest for a " transcendental signifier" that will give meaning to all other signs. According to Derrida, "Deconstruction is not an enclosure in nothingness, but an openness to the other" (Derrida, 1984, p. 124), and an attempt "to discover the non-place or non-lieu which would be that 'other' of philosophy" (ibid. p. 112).
I've added a new section on the development of Derrida's deconstruction in relation to Husserl's philosophy. This section isn't supposed to account for the whole origins of deconstruction as this would over emphasise Husserl influence on Derrida with a consequent de-emphasis on the actual importance of Heidegger and Hegel in the formation of Derrida's philosophy of deconstruction. New sections developing the importance of Heidegger and Hegel in the origins of deconstruction should be developed to complement the section on Husserl. Seferin ( talk) 03:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've replaced the old section "Text and Deconstruction" while attempting to reincorporate useful material from the old section into the new one. I reproduce the old section below in case anyone wants to compare the two or attempt to reincorporate more material from the old section Seferin ( talk) 16:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Text and deconstruction
According to deconstructive readers, one of the phallogocentrisms of modernism is the distinction between speech ( logos) and writing, with writing historically being thought of as derivative to logos. As part of subverting the presumed dominance of logos over text, Derrida argued that the idea of a speech-writing dichotomy contains within it the idea of a very expansive view of textuality that subsumes both speech and writing. According to Jacques Derrida, "There is nothing outside of the text" (Derrida, 1976, at 158). That is, text is thought of not merely as linear writing derived from speech, but any form of depiction, marking, or storage, including the marking of the human brain by the process of cognition or by the senses.
In a sense, deconstruction is simply a way to read text (as broadly defined); any deconstruction has a text as its object and subject. This accounts for deconstruction's broad cross-disciplinary scope. Deconstruction has been applied to literature, art, architecture, science, mathematics, philosophy, and psychology, and any other disciplines that can be thought of as involving the act of marking.
In deconstruction, text can be thought of as "dead", in the sense that once the markings are made, the markings remain in suspended animation and do not change in themselves. Thus, what an author says about his text doesn't revive it, and is just another text commenting on the original, along with the commentary of others. In this view, when an author says, "You have understood my work perfectly," this utterance constitutes an addition to the textual system, along with what the reader said was understood in and about the original text, and not a resuscitation of the original dead text. The reader has an opinion, the author has an opinion. Communication is possible not because the text has a transcendental signification, but because the brain tissue of the author contains similar "markings" as the brain tissue of the reader. These brain markings, however, are unstable and fragmentary.
I've also moved the article revision immediately preceding my rewrite tag into
Deconstruction/Archive1.
Buffyg 21:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
_________________________
Hey, sorry but I'm not sure where to put this comment on an already cluttered page -- You (We... whoever) might want to rethink keeping the stuff about the Sokal hoax in this article. I'm not trying to sweep the hoax under the rug or anything, but it actually has very little to do with Derrida and deconstruction. Sokal did name-drop Derrida (I think) in his original article for Social Text, but the critique that followed had more to do with other theorists -- Lacan, Latour, Deleuze, Kristeva -- who had appropriated a lot of pseudo-science into their writing. Derrida has written a little bit about technology as a reaction to Heidegger's thinking on the subject; I think he was also asked during a lecture whether or not his theories could be compared to Einstein's theory of relativity, and he said something like, "Sure, why not" -- but, anyway, my point here is that Derrida/deconstruction wasn't really a target of the Sokal hoax; that Derrida really hasn't made much use of any kind of science in his writing. Now, I know a lot of people see Derrida/deconstruction as a stand-in for a whole set of theories and thought that WAS the target of the Sokal hoax, and that this fact means we should include something about the Sokal hoax, which is fine with me, but Derrida's relationship to it should be made clearer in the article.
Oh, and just so it's not assumed that I'm some pedantic apologist for deconstruction (I'm not), I think the wiki article is lacking in links/summaries of some of the best critiques of deconstruction, i.e. the serious ones from Anglo-American philosophers. A run-down of the Derrida/Searle debate that goes through their respective arguments point by point would be immensely helpful to anyone trying to understand deconstruction's relation to Anglo-American philosophy. Also, something about J. Claude Evans's book, "Strategies of Deconstruction" (I think that's what it's called) is absolutely necessary here. Evans critiques Derrida's early reading of Husserl, and talks about just what it means to discover "inconsistencies" in a philosophical argument and finds Derrida's claim that he has done so wanting. (Mr. W.H. -- October 2005)
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It's been a while since I read the Derrida article, and I have to say, Buffyg, it's getting to be really good, particularly in its historical context of deconstruction. If we could end up with something like that historical context here, I'd be very pleased. One thing I think we need to end up with in addition to the above list is a good set of examples of deconstruction, and I think some of the best examples of deconstruction are connected to the concepts Derrida explored in relation to his new lexicon of such terms as (différance, trace, écriture, pharmakon, etc.) Of course, I don't think the article should just be a dictionary of Derrida's terminology, the way section 4 now reads, but I think these terms can be framed as good examples of deconstruction, much more so than the example of Derrida's reading of Lévi-Strauss (which now composes section 5). COGDEN 21:33, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
As a "civilian", I thought I should chime in. I am an engineer and a modernist, and I suppose I see things from what you would consider a drastically different world view. I think three things should be added to the to-do list:
- Casito⇝ Talk 03:30, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
In response to Casito about an easy to understand definition. The average person would not understand this definition but 'does' know what deconstruction is. I will give an example of a definition that I believe would be understandable, and fit with the definition of most people who have been exposed to it. (other than deconstructionists themselves) :)
Fascetiously yours,
--
Darkfred
Talk to me
17:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm new to wikipedia but have a long history with Deconstruction and the writings of Derrida. there are many problems with the article for example it takes sides so quickly. the second sentence reads ""deconstruction" is a kind of interpertation that argues for what its practitioners regard as the impossibility of a complete or even coherent understanding of a text". So right off the bat deconstruction is defined as a type of interpertation. First of all this is a possibility that Derrida frequently denied. Second, the idea that deconstruction starts with an assumption of the impossibility of understanding is false. Through much of his work Derrida reveals the metaphysical apratus at work supporting what is understood as a complete / coherent meaning; but derrida's deconstructive texts do not propose this as a founding assumption, or starting point.
The article also spends too much time describing why deconstruction can not be defined, and puts far too much emphasis on the debates about deconstruction over the past 35 years. Deconstruction is not hard to define if one starts with the relationship between Derrida and Heidegger and how Derrida was extending a specific aspect of Heidegger's work on being to his own work on language. The first 20 pages of Of Grammatology are the perfect case in point. I think the article should start with this kind of definition / historical perspective that describes Derrida's use of the term as his way of writing through Heidegger to address the metaphysics of presence as found in language. this would be both historicaly accurate and would define the concept in a way that would be free from the overtly political claims that define the article as it is written.
From there the article could define the reception of Deconstruction in America that radically changed it from a structural function of the history of metaphysics within wester philosophy to an approach to the reading of literary texts. From there I think it could examine architecture and critical legal studies- perhaps the place where deconstruction in the way Derrida used the term returns as a form of neo-pragmitism. Of course later the article can address the use of the term in contemporary culture and some of the debates that surround it. Saving the debates for later in the article is essential if the article strives to be fair and to actually define the term. -Douglas Hunter 11/21/05
Just jumping in here: as a novice, the first paragraph (as written as of my timestamp) seems like a perfectly reasonable introduction. 141.154.100.194 21:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
No indication that such a scholar exists as previously cited or that his opinions are notable and competence in the subject matter established. The only result for the last name and linguistics on Google is this article. Broader searches point to such a person studying for a Ph.D. in ESL instruction at Bharathiar Univeristy, Tamilnadu, India, with a further interest in English grammar. Even with a citation, I'm tend to think notability needs to be established. I believe this is intended to be vandalism by way of a subtle hoax. I will note this on Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress page and the talk page of the user who made the edit. Buffyg 19:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
From r.m.bharanithran
because of misunderstanding ( misunderstnding of deconstruction )i have committed a crime .mistake sir.really i came to know now that i have committed my mistake, please frogive me sir and pardon me sir for my mistake.could you please withdraw vandalism report sir.
TO Adminstraor/concerned officals of wikipeida/ and the public and general readers
VANDALISM REGARDING DECONSTRUCTION.
Could please remove my name sir ?. I realise my mistake by giving an wrong information.
When I browse through internet, I by chance came to know that I have vandalised an artile “deconstruction”.It was not an deliberate attempt.i did it in order to imporve our project or improve wikipeida.but now I come to know that infromation given by me is wrong.Hence I have committed a mistake ,blunder, crime for which I am extremly extremly sorry sir.Would you please pardon and frogive me sir? For the mistake and crime I commit.in future I will not commit such kind of mistakes.i kindly and humbly request you sir to forigve and pardon me sir.Again I kindly and humbly request you to remove my name on pages of vandalism.i realised my mistake.
I kindly and humbly request you to remove my name from vandalism list. Somebody should help me to remove my name.please do that for me sir.
Whom should I contact to remove my name from vnadalism list. I want my name to be removed from vandalisim list( deconstruction R.m.bharanitharan)immediaetely.There will be a danger to my profession if my name appears on the pages of wkipeidia vandalism list.Hnece i kindlly rewuest you to remove my name form vandalism list(deconstruction r.m.bharanitharan).i will be sent out of my profession if my name appears on the pages of wikipedia vandalisim list. so pleae help me by removing my name.
By bharanitharan
my email; noamchomsky@rediffmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by BHARANITHARAN R.M. ( talk • contribs) 04:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Alan Sokal, and countless other benighted physicists, would be very "relieved" to learn that that which he wrote about quantum gravity was not actually nonsense.
There is nothing to justify the selection of these links. Wikipedia is not a web directory; there is no obligation to include links that purport to be about a particular subject. These links are written by people with no demonstrable understanding of the subject; in fact, these are links by people either complaining that they do not understand deconstruction or documenting that this is the case. Take the following quotations from the Locke essay:
So that's the origin of the Sokal hoax, publishing a hoax in a "deconstructionist magazine" (which it certainly was not; I can pull a cite where Ross says that he wasn't comfortable with some of the Derrida and Lacan cites because he didn't want to get involved in pomo polemics — I'm not aware of deconstruction ever having a mouthpiece journal). This isn't criticism, this is howling at the moon by someone who read a book by someone who read a book by someone who obviously doesn't like deconstruction: that's about how garbled the above characterisations are.
Then's there's Morningstar:
This may be a cut above (he read Culler, then some unspecified other works, possibly including Derrida given the reference by name, then alt.postmodernism; I suspect that the last is where the most bizarre bits above come in). Still barking as far as far as his account of deconstruction goes.
Since when does Wikipedia authorise these in its external link guidelines? I'll tell you what sections of the guideline doc wouldn't cover these:
As for the following:
These links do not further substantiate any point of view presented in the article, and their POV is not given any critical commentary. It could be reasonably argued that what is being discussed in these links is not the subject of the deconstruction entry, including the criticism. To the extent that it represents rather than misrepesent anything in the article under the heading of criticism, it represents it so poorly as to bring discredit, which amounts to POV-injection by straw man argument. Buffyg 22:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I reverted simply in order to restore some balance into an otherwise overly sympathetic list. I didn't really expect the edit to incite sufficient passion to inspire a thousand words. But that might go part way to explain why this article remains moribund after so long.
I don't find the reasons given for removal very convincing. Chomsky openly admits his "utter ignorance" of deconstruction, but his criticism remains in the article. Nor is it sufficient simply to claim that the writers are "ill-informed", without being at all specific. The present article certainly does nothing to explain how Morningstar and Locke are mistaken.
Both articles reflect common criticisms: Locke is a nice example of the flaky Right's view that Deconstruction is a tool of the flaky Left; Morningstar's of the scientistic view that Deconstruction shows the poverty of Humanities over Science. If neither view is expressed in the article, then that is a problem for the article.
But neither reference is especially good. I am not interested enough to push the point. The article as it stands continues to be quite disappointing. Banno 08:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi I'm a grade twelve student from Queensland, Australia. I was just wondering if anyone here was aware that "the constructedness of texts" plays a very large part in my state's senior English curriculum.
I came onto Wikipedia hoping to find an article that could help me seeming as though I'm failing the subject (the subject being a prerequisite to every single uni course there is). What shocked me though, was that there's so much criticism of this theory. They teach this stuff as absolute fact at school (though I obviously don't get much of it).
If we consider a subject like Biology, you can be pretty sure that creationism has absolutely nothing over Darwin's theory. This is obviously not the case with English though since there are so many criticisms of deconstruction.
So, should deconstruction be taught in high schools? Also, is this a world-wide thing or is it just my state?
I'd hoped that if the "chickenness"example was unsatisfactory, someone would supply one that isn't. The abstruse concept of "trace" requires at least one example.
Here's another question for you. Is this Wikipedia entry *about* deconstruction, or just a bunch of people bashing it? Andy 21:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Rather than write this out again--I'm going to repost some slightly edited comments from a usertalk discussion with a contributer to the Deconstruction article. It is as follows....
I've sporadically followed the evolution of the Deconstruction article for several years-- so I know you are a major contributer. I have a minor complaint about the article--over those years there is constant mention of something along these lines....
“there is a cottage industry of writers of variably explicit sympathy or antipathy to DECONSTRUCTION as they understand it who offer what they believe are programmatic characterizations in an effort to help those reluctant to read DECONSTRUCTION texts understand it.... “
Question: How does this statement add value to the article?
Answer: I don't believe it does. Every notable subject in the human experience gets subsequent critique and very often misrepresented and misquoted. Despite Deconstruction's take on this “effect” – it is no exception and holds no special status in that regard. To demonstrate my point of unnecessary text-- imagine we substituted “communism” or “laissez faire capitalism” instead of DECONSTRUCTION in quoted text above.
I think the reason why “cottage industry” type comments keep creeping into the article is because of personal biases of some recurring contributor (probably just intellectual snobbery). It has no place in the article and unnecessarily alienates readers.
Aloof comments of this sort always do a disservice to any subject matter as it belittles the people that explore the concepts--or even think they do. The article should not be a critique or indictment of people that write about Deconstruction (or even a skewed perception of it). This is especially forgivable considering the subject matter and the nature of Derrida himself. What really irks me about sophomoric comments like this is that Derrida's own books are the definitive authority for his views-- not a Wikipedia article written by “cottage industry” writers.
Therefore I propose that the criticism section is adequate for describing general alternate viewpoints/complaints with regards to Deconstuction--and any references of this sort be removed from the article unless empirical academically reviewed evidence can be offered that demonstrates Deconstruction somehow has more quacks than other subjects (something the comment implies)
..
Any how, the contributer disagreed with my assessment and stated that it is "indisputably true". I countered that I wished to dispute this “truth”. We mutually agreed it would be better to continue the debate here. So here I am.
Therefore I request empirical evidence from some credible non-Wikipedia peer reviewed source if anyone feels the statements should remain. Should evidence of some sort be provided or anyone disagree with my reasoning (regarding the need for a shred of emperical or peer review evidence for such statements)--I am open for discussion. However, if no attempt is made, I will make the edit after a two week period as I view this as a subjective seat-o-the-pants emotional opinion on a touchy subject— not remotely a fact.
Without evidence to support the case, if it is changed back afterwards I will assume this is a self-fulfilling prophesy of “cottage industry” writers taking control and I will leave the article in their hands.
In accordance to how I read Wikipedia NPOV, the onus of inclusion of a fact within an article is for the contributor to provide credible proof---not for me to disprove. Although I sympathize with the plight of any article that wishes to be true to its pedigree (especially one as complex as Deconstruction) it seems reasonable and polite that it should follow the rules of the Wikipedia house. (Nov. 7, 2005 Anon.)
This quote from the article: "yet in Derrida's view, "meaning" itself is a form of text,..." : could be improved to " "meaning" obeys the same rules of textuality as the text itself, ..." . It has to be stessed, what does deconstructing different to (and more than ) interpreting does. So it is the many possible ways of reading a text, given a time, a language, and a cultural background within.
The notion of trace gives the assertion that there is such a textuality. As far as I read Derrida, the notion of trace is one big unfinished part of his philosophy, and he probably relies heavily on Levinas here.
I would like to propose to delete the current intro and replace it with the following intro:
Looking forward to your comments-- Jahsonic 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Can someone who is more familiar with this subject than I am expand or clarify the section on hymen? The paragraph as currently written is absolute gibberish. The section on pharmakon is less gibberish, but still lacks anything that puts it in context in this subject, i.e. why it's relevant. YBeayf 05:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
That deconstruction isn't relativistic. Since one interpretation of a given text is as good as another (due to the supposed less of foundation upon which metaphysics is built) the result is an intellectual demolition of most disciplines : science, logic, history, mathematics (etc). If you 'decenter', as Derrida might put it, absolute or objective claims, then you have "relativism" in all shapes and sizes. If there is a distinction to be had here that I am overlooking somewhat, then please present it to me.
Please bear in mind however that your response as such is guilty of phallogocentrism, a preference of the phallus over the female genitalia and that I may have to deconstruct your reply in order to grant equality to the 'Other'. Don't say I didn't warn you.--
Knucmo2
23:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, Derrida has never argued that "one interpretation of a text is as good as another" --
Q: It might be argued that deconstruction inevitably leads to pluralist interpretation and ultimately to the view that any interpretation is as good as any other. Do you believe this and how do you select some interpretations as being better than others?
[Derrida]: I am not a pluralist and I would never say that every interpretation is equal...
He goes on to detail his method for selecting quotations, some thoughts on Nietzsche, etc. This is from "Literary Review" (Vol 14.18 April - 1 May (1980):21-22) if you want to read the whole thing.
Deconstruction says nothing of the value or significance of different interpretations. That is the whole point of deconstruction. Rather, deconstruction says that this exact ancient desire to 'measure' one interpretation (or signifier, or whatever) against another is unjustified. Different signifiers are different and do bear different significance, but this significance is not something that can be measured on an objective scale - not even in terms of equals. The difference is subtle but (philosophically) significant. -- AndersFeder 03:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm unsure if I overlooked the citations, but when I read the article, there is alot of talk about the critics of deconstruction and though two names are mentioned (rorty and chomsky) I am still left wondering who all these critics are and what their names and works are. If I've somehow overlooked something, I apologize. Thank. DanteDanti 19 June 2006
I always felt that Deconstructionism was the greatest intellectual magic trick ever pulled, rivaled only by Scientology. No one can see that the emperor truely has no clothes, and interestingly enough the moment its criticised - it falls apart, and even more interesting - is when this point is brought up - a deconstructionist replies with "EXACTLY!" This seems like such a rediculous recursive childs' game, that it's most certainly not worth playing. Now, the very fact that there are pages and pages of rambling going on about what Deconstructionism is/isn't, should clearly show that it was a drug-induced theory to begin with, and is on par with "what if we are really just atoms in a larger being...whoa.." Sometimes that which is preceived as brilliant is really just idiocy with a new marketing director. To compare Deconstructionism to the likes of Merlou Ponty or Heidegger is like compareing stereo instructions to TS Eliot...the only commonality is that the both at times, use words.
By the way, whomever wrote the piece on Heidegger - has never studied Heidegger with any scholar of any kind, or if they had - then they clearly fell asleep when the important stuff was being discussed...
Also - I can't spell, I know this - but it is in no way indicative of my process of thought - so if that is all you have to go on for a valid criticism of my very terse set of comments above - try again. Capolan 01 February 2006
geeman 28 June 2006
I'd like to see the whole article mercilessly copyedited for clarity and simplicity of expression, before any substantive changes are made. I've done this with one section - as best I can. I won't go any further for now, because what I've done is probably already controversial. If someone wants to revert it, I won't lose sleep, though I'd hope that it's possible to improve the new version rather than simply throw my work away.
In any event, it's offered as a possible approach. Of course, the subject matter is intrinsically difficult, so even the section I've tackled is still not a super easy read... If people think I haven't entirely wasted my time, I'm prepared to do more of this on other sections. Metamagician3000 03:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I find that I'm in a bind. Like most I feel that this article is not satisfactory. After reading through this talk page, I suspect that a large part of the problem with the article is that many of the contributors demonstrate contempt for the subject. And while I certainly don't contend that someone has to be wholly or even partially in agreement with a subject in order to write a quality encyclopedia article, I do think that it is an extremely difficult task when someone thinks that the subject simply has no value whatsoever. To the people who contend that deconstruction is merely "intellectual masturbation", or that deconstruction is so worthless as to not deserve an article, I question what additions of value they could add to an article like this. I invite criticism of any topic, an indeed there is more in the article to criticize decon than to argue in favor of it. But Wikipedia is not supposed to pass summary judgements of controversial subjects; and if only those who want to mock and degrade deconstruction post here, how can any neutral point of view be created?
Back to my bind: I keep reading the posts of previous editors to this talk page and wanting to respond to their criticisms of decon. But I know that doing so is contrary to the point of a talk page, which is a discussion about how best to create an accurate encyclopedia article, not a forum for debating the merits of the subject. So you see my dilemma. I do feel that there are some serious misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of deconstruction that are taking place which are hindering the creation of a quality article. All that I will say in this space in defense of decon is this: that most of the arguments against it are circular. Decon at times subverts traditional rationality and logic (some would say Aristotlean rationality) in order to better understand the ways in which rational arguments are constructed, to see the frameworks which make rationality possible. By refusing to step outside of classic rationality in order to understand decon, its critics assume as a starting point the very assumptions which decon hopes to question.
I'm willing to take on some of the editing that people are in agreement needs to be done (and will be no doubt savagely edited myself :) ). Right now I'm on vacation, so I don't have access to my books and journal articles that I would need to cite in order to provide references. I'll be home on the 18 and hope to get started then. Freddie deBoer 03:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me as congruent with deconstruction to include the context of the creation of the article, and the evolution of thought that led to its development, as an ongoing and alive link to perhaps a summary of the stages of development of the article. With Wikipedia then, there might want to be a history of the article as part of the article with links to all prior versions and rationale for change. This idea allows the idea of deconstruction to remain alive to new thinking, and not die with Derrida et. al. -- Cdonnan 16:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)cdonnan
In the realm of Deconstruction, one must view langauge as something which is both differential and differed. This view towards language builds into a concept that Derrida calls différance.(Here I am not trying to define différance, which would be an inane understaking or even explain it as a stand-alone type entity, which can be done at a later point, but rather provide insight into Deconstructions relationship to language. Thus one should not see this as différance means "to be deferred and differential," but rather much like the word, the idea of différance is based on the concepts of language being differed and differential). When one speaks about différance, this is an allusion to the idea that language is an unlimited semiosis, in which meaning can never be said to have a confined self-presence. Language then is thought to be both differential, built upon constrasting negative relations, and differed, infinitely passed thorugh a series of linguistic substitutions and displacements.
I find it very interesting to note that the entire concept of Derrida's Khôra has been completely overlooked. For those who are familiar with this term, I find it quite difficult to come to terms with the idea that this concept has not yet been mentioned as even a potential addition to the article. To me, Derrida's work with the khôra offers an overwhelming legitimization to his philosophy and work in Deconstruction. The khôra offers one an opportunity to come face-to-face with a true deconstructive reading of a classical text. In his Decontruction of Plato's Timaeus, Derrida attempts to prove to his reader that, "the most radically decontructed motifs are at work 'in' what is called the Platonic, Cartesian, Kantian text." For those not familiar with khôra, here is a very brief summary. Derrida, in his work with classical literary/philosophical text, comes upon a topic in Plato's Timaeus, which is customarily overlooked in traditional readings, being swallowed by the wave of what Derrida calls, "The Philosophy of Plato," Platonism. Platonism being the "dominant" result of Plato's writing, the other voices and effects at work in his work typically are shut out or swallowed up in the name of Platonism. Khôra is a concept at work in Plato's Timaeus that starkly contrasts "The Philosophy of Plato," or Platonism and is typically cast aside. Khôra is neither a intelligible form or a sensible thing, but rather a receptacle, a concept which goes against the framework of Platonism. -- BorommakotTesshu 11:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
(Saussure’s Course in General Linguistics), anthropology (Lévi-Strauss’s Tristes Tropiques), and philosophy (Rousseau’s Essay on the Origin of Languages) I believe that many people fail to grasp the importance or significance of Deconstruction, mainly because they have been unable to come face to face with its actualization and application and are instead typically mired down in the details of defining and understanding its theories and ideas as stand-alone entities. Although much emphasis should be placed on the theoris and more abstract ideas of Deconstruction, ear should also be given to the more concrete examples of how Deonctructive readings may be applied. One example of this is Derrida's work with the Khôra, which I mentioned above. Some more examples follow and would be interesting to see some people take up some of these:
The section "lack of seriousness and transparency" concludes with the following paragraph:
One might say the same thing about the apparently unintuitive axioms of Non-Euclidean Geometry-- that they just do not make sense. Yet, these same (for some bizarre) theories end up being useful in understanding space near matter. Accepting what at first blush may seem to be "illogic" for the scientific positivist may be necessary in understanding deconstruction as well.
I must protest the analogy. The only possible criticism of non-euclidean geometry is that we may not see how its axioms can be true of the world. To have this inability, we must first be able to aprehend their meaning in some way. However, the detractors of deconstructionism claim they cannot even understand what is being said in postmodernist (or whichever umbrella term) discourse. To conflate these two very distinct phenomena — not seeing how a sentence can be true, and not understanding a sentence at all — into "does not make sense" is sloppy, as is the implicit assertion that mathematics is "illogic". I propose to erase the paragraph entirely. Pietro KC 07:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
There really isn't much about how deconstruction might be useful to a literary critic - which could presumably be used to bring balance to the idea that deconstruction is nihilism - and perhaps provide an example that some people have suggested. For example, we might show how Shakespeare in Othello sets up symbolic dichotomies with the opposition between white and black, darkness and light, life and death, but then perhaps shows these to be hierarchized - so that the white Iago turns out to be evil, and the suspected Moor demonstrates himself, at least at first, to be reasoned and honourable. That might not be the best example, but at least it shows the deconstructive move, which we might find difficult to define.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.67.10.115 ( talk • contribs) .
Falsehood: Why does the association of Nazi followers such as Heidegger with deconstructionist dissociate it from the political left wing? The NSDAP were very clearly left-wing in their political beliefs, and the continued mis-association of them with the political right baffles me.—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
209.63.179.228 (
talk)
I was just trying to add a language and when I saved part of the text was erased. It was some bug, not vandalism.
I think before adding to the criticism section, editors should take the time to read the wiki pages on other contemporary philosophers of similar stature. I've noticed that several editors who have some sort of beef with post(modernism/structuralism/whatever) like to repeatedly expand upon and argue about the criticism sections of this page, Deconstructionism, Jacques Lacan, and a couple others. Often, these sections include a summary of polemical exchanges between these figures (or their contemporary supporters), and either analytic philosophers or random famous people who don't like post(modernism/structuralism/whatever). However, on the pages of the same luminaries who offered these devestating critiques of post-x, the fact that they did so is not even mentioned.
Example 1: while some find it necessary to include Noam Chomsky claiming to be unable to understand Jacques Lacan as a valid criticism of Lacan, no one sees fit to add any Lacanian (or Saussrian) critics to Noam Chomsky. Furthermore, while Chomsky has been invovled in numerous polemical debates with various academic figures (including John Searle, see ex. 2), few have found their way to the Chomsky article. Example 2: While the 1974 debate between Jacques Derrida and John Searle is referred to extensively on Jacques Derrida, it does not appear on John Searle Example 3: While all of the 'canonical' figures of 'continental philosophy' eg: Martin Heidegger Jean-Paul Sartre Sigmund Freud Friederich Nietzche (the list goes on and on) have a numbered, bulleted, at least paragraph long section of criticism, none of the 'canonical' figures of analytic philosophy enjoy such careful scrutiny on wikipedia. As it stands, a curious scholar would find that absolutely no one has ever written a single critical word toward Bertrand Russell, Gottlob Frege, Willard Van Orman Quine, AJ Ayer, George Edward Moore, J.L. Austin, Rudolf Carnap, the Vienna Circle or basically any analytic philosopher who is living or has ever lived.
Suggestion based on above examples: please do not claim that poorly cited or sourced, unnotable, or generally dismissive criticisms of post-x need to be included on post-x wikipages to give a 'balanced' point of view. It is obvious that extensive reproduction of critical reception is not part of the general practice of reporting on philosophical movements in wikipedia. I also seem to recall that it is wiki policy to have an international viewpoint as much as possible. Given that the 'criticisms' sections in all of the abovementioned cases are focused entirely on anglo-american criticisms of european philosophers, one would think that this policy is being misapplied. When I get around to it, seeing no evidence provided against my assertions here, I will be extensively trimming and changing the criticism sections on all of these pages to make them more reflective of the rest of wikipedia Jimmyq2305 22:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Jimmyq2305 04:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Absurdity par excellence. Chases its own tail, trying pathetically to find something concrete in language it can hold on to, can be sure of.
--Actually, that's just about the opposite of decon. Don't criticize what you don't understand. 64.251.50.50 13:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I found this remark to be bad: In addition, despite what Derrida's many detractors claim, deconstruction is not the same as nihilism or relativism. It is not [..] and changed it to: Some detractors claim deconstruction amounts to little more than nihilism or relativism. Its proponents deny this; It is not [..]
It's non-NPOV, basically stating the proponent opinion as fact, and the opponent opinion as if it were neutrally and factually false. Further, it's an overly strong statement, implying all Derrida's detractors claim this (unlikely) and also an overly specific characterization of their claims (exactly the same?).
I'm not 100% happy with the change, since it introduces the weasel-word "Some detractors..". But it's at least correct and neutral. Obviously not an insignificant number of critics claim this, so it's not misleading at least. I don't think a reference is necessary for this? I'd consider it to be general knowlege on the subject, more or less.
(The other line was far more amusing though! Someone promoting the deconstructionist POV by asserting one reading is more truthful than another? :) Not to mention citing Derrida's work as authorative? Doesn't that both imply presence and privledge it? ) - 130.237.179.171 22:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I have some problems with the new intro. I think the extra paragraph that was added is reasonable, but the paragraph that was added first is problematic:
First, the first sentence is circular. Deconstruction denotes a process by which texts shift when subjected to deconstruction? How is that helpful? Second, I'm not sure what is gained by the assertion that Derrida can talk more about what deconstruction is not. It is true he did a lot of this, thanks to many people misinterpreting him, but he also did spell out what it is, both in essays and interviews (and, indeed, there are many helpful secondary sources on this point). He also showed what it is through numerous essays that were deconstructive -- if anything, wouldn't it be better to say that he performed deconstruction than that he spoke "more readily" about what it is not? I prefer the previous version of this paragraph to the one added; I think the above is unnecessarily confusing.-- csloat 19:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous editor(s) have been adding a section called Undeconstructability that suggests that there are certain terms that are "undeconstructable", such as hospitality, democracy, friendship, the other, and the future. (Or, I can't tell from the text here, but maybe the POV is that Derrida had a blind-spot in this regard.) This appears to be a view promoted by a group of theologists who see deconstruction as having a utopian "endgame". Certainly this POV should be included in the article, since it appears to be verifiable (and Derrida did write about each of these terms, although personally I thought he was writing about their deconstruction, not the impossibility of their deconstruction), but where should we put this theory? Is anyone else familiar with this school of theo-pomo, or know the extent of their influence? COGDEN 20:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Derrida first wrote about "justice" as undeconstructible in "Force of Law," which is in Acts of Religion, but it is not a theological idea. Note that the undeconstructibility of justice amounts to the statement that deconstruction IS justice. It corresponds, more or less, to the thought of Bernard Stiegler that justice is that which does not exist, but which consists. The relevant quotation from "Force of Law" is on pages 242–3:
"In the structure I am describing here, law is essentially deconstructible, whether because it is founded, that is to say, constructed, upon interpretable and transformable textual strata (and that is the history of law, its possible and necessary transformation, sometimes its amelioration), or because its ultimate foundation is by definition unfounded. The fact that law is deconstructible is not bad news. One may even find in this the political chance of all historical progress. But the paradox that I would like to submit for discussion is the following: it is this deconstructible structure of law or, if you prefer, of justice as law, that also ensures the possibility of deconstruction. Justice in itself, if such a thing exist, outside or beyond law, is not deconstructible. No more than deconstruction itself, if such a thing exist. Deconstruction is justice. It is perhaps because law (which I will therefore consistently try to distinguish from justice) is constructible, in a sense that goes beyond the opposition between convention and nature, it is perhaps insofar as it goes beyond this opposition that it is constructible—and so deconstructible and, better yet, that it makes deconstruction possible, or at least the exercise of a deconstruction that, fundamentally, always proceeds to quesitons of law and to the subject of law. Whence these three propositions:
- 1. The deconstructibility of law (for example) makes deconstruction possible.
- 2. The undeconstructibility of justice also makes deconstruction possible, indeed is inseparable from [se confond avec] it.
- 3. Consequence: Deconstruction takes place in the interval that separates the undeconstructibility of justice from the deconstructibility of law. Deconstruction is possible as an experience of the impossible, there where, even if it does not exist, if it is not present, not yet or never, there is justice [il y a la justice]. Wherever one can replace, translate, determine the X of justice, one would have to say: deconstruction is possible, as impossible, to the extent (there) where there is X (undeconstructible), thus to the extent (there) wherre there is (the undeconstructible).
In other words, the hypothesis and propositions toward which I am tentatively moving here would rather call for the subtitle: justice as the possibility of deconstruction, the structure of right or of the law [la structure du droit ou de la loi], the founding or the self-authorizing of law as the possibility of the exercise of deconstruction."
Mtevfrog 23:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
A gesture toward understanding this: Deconstruction is a way of reading that on the one hand does not hesitate to perpetrate a certain violence in the course of interpretation, while on the other hand attempts to maintain an utmost rigour, that is, an utmost fidelity to the text. What guides deconstruction in this faithful/unfaithful reading? What ensures the justice of deconstructive readings? The point is that there is no final guarantee, that is, what guides the reading cannot be an idea in the Platonic sense, and yet this does not imply that deconstructive readings are wild or arbitrary (no more than any other reading, at least). A deconstruction is always susceptible to another deconstruction, later. In other words, what guides the fidelity or infidelity of deconstruction is faith, but not in an idea or a God as that which exists more than anything else, but rather in justice or deconstruction as such, as that which does not exist but which consists, consists in the sense of being that about which it is possible to have faith, to have belief, but not final certainty. Justice guides interpretation, not as a shining beacon, but as that which we cannot give up believing in if we are to know how to interpret at all, without which we lack the motive to deconstruct, as that which we are struggling to see or grasp in interpreting. Mtevfrog 23:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
To backup my comment above here I include a fuller quote from Spectres of Marx and try and give a fuller summary of Derrida's justice:
(6) The point you make here is merely a reflection of my claim that you are mangling this idea and presenting it for misuse and misleading the reader.
(1) What is the key word here is reduction, it is possible to give an opening description of something without reducing it or simplifying. Its primary duty is in fact to maintain in some way the complexity, I never suggested this would be easy. This article correctly goes into the difficulty of defining deconstruction. This recently added section betrays the main part of the article by coming close to defining deconstruction as justice (that is, justice as ordinarily (ie, from a dictionary) conceived).
(2) You didn't use a dictionary definition but in the first paragraph it is given without any hint that the use of the term justice here is quite far from the dictionary definition.
(3) Deconstruction as you are probably aware is hard to define. Certain aspects of it are obvious in Derrida's discussion of justice. Firstly the term is opposed, by Derrida, to Law (La Droit or Rights), identifying such an opposition is deconstructiive. Secondly it is given as being not fully present, this is also a deconstructive move that harks back to Heidegger's Destruktion of the philosophy of presence.
(4) The difference between undeconstructible and the -ility form is relevant, especially when a noun such as the undeconstructibles is used. Such use returns the words to a pre-deconstructive usage and gives them the very substantial form that Derrida attempts to avoid. This is why, I maintain, he only used the -ible form when giving his cryptic attempt to translate his thought, using erasure, into the old language of metaphysics: "deconstruction is possible, as impossible, to the extent (there) where there is (the undeconstructible)" Most notable, on this issue, is how few times this undeconstructiity(ible) term is used at all in Derrida's writing.
(5) That you didnt intend to give a simple explanation of justice is well and good. I maintain that as the article appears a simple justice, is something a reader of an encyclopedia might assume unless one first points out this critical issue to the reader.
(6) To talk of a huge ethical turn is something of a cliche, but by equating Derrrida's idea of justice to deconstruction, one can see that justice/ethics was there from the beginning. The few uses of this term undeconstructible in the reams of Derrida's writing is the salient issue. It is used a few times in Forces of Law and twice in Spectres of Marx. So should it be given all this space in the brief article. In my opinion he uses the term just to give priority to deconstruction and to promote it as the best, most just, way of interpretation and writing, in that only certain things might be un-deconstructible, those are deconstruction itself, justice insofar as it is already deconstruction. As to democracy and friendship and forgiveness etc. who could say they're normal usage is un-deconstructible. I maintain that in the 90s it was these that were subjected to and informed Derrida's deconstruction of them (and by them). These are the very things that must be open to deconstruction, in other words, "no democracy without deconstruction." If one is suggesting that Derrida reached a stage in deconstructing them which is unsurpassable then this is a point of view but it is not assured. Who might yet say that his idea of forgiveness, for example, is Christian centered and deconstruct it on that basis. Or who might say that his idea of democracy relies upon a Euro-centric and Hegelian world view.
-- Lucas
(3) I presume this last comment comes from Hay4. (3a) To deconstruct as a verb or action or activity or method is used even by yourself in the above youi say, and I quote you: "of the order of constructions to which we may apply deconstructive interpretations". Al the verb means is to apply deconstructive interpretations. So you also use the verb form, decontruction as a kind interpretion, and that is fine, this is what I mean by "to deconstruct". Paul De Man is another issue, though your own school seems to me to emphaisis a pre-deconstructive reading
(4) Justice was decontructed by Derrida, he read it interpreted justice in a way the was deoncstructive. Of course undecontructibility is the very opposite of deconstruction and lets us identify what deconstruction is by giving us its opposing value. I maintain Derrida didnt make a deal of undeconstrucibility cos it is quite obvious, in a way, and so he only mentioned it a few times. Yes we all know he said Justice like deconstruction, had an undeconstructibility, this is not an issue. It is when you apply it as a heading and equate in stasis to a whole slew of terms that it becomes problematic. I already agreed that there is a sense of undeconstructibility to these things but that it is not given that much importance in his writing. Messianism as undecontructible is now your only other "indesctructible", this is hearsay, youi have no backup. Glad to see you see we can now end this discussion and that you drop this reification of indestructibles seen in God, Democracy, Forgiveness, etc.
-- Lucas
From Specters of Marx: "What remains irreducible to any deconstruction, what remains as undeconstructible as the possibility itself of deconstruction, is, perhaps, a certain experience of the emancipatory promise; it is perhaps even the formality of a structural messianism, a messianism without religion, even a messianic without messianism, an idea of justice--which we distinguish from law or right and even from human rights--and an idea of democracy --which we distinguish from its current concept and from its determined predicates today." I hope this helps you. 141.161.127.75 17:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for this quote, it is clear from it that the issue of undecontructibility is very complex and is in a sense "after deconstruction." It clearly doesnt lend itself to simple assertion, like those made in the article addition that provoked this discussion, this is because undeconstructibility is messianic without messianism, without religion. After justice, democracy etc. are deconstructed, what is left is obviously, and only for the time being, undeconstructible, but Derrida's decontructive decision in giving us his idea of Justice, can also be compared to a kind of madness, from a kind of promise, and importantly not given as final, the further deconstruction of justice is part of that promise. Some have written about undeconstructibility, it seems that it is a certain theology that is most at home with any reification of undeconstructibility. It is a failed attempt, perhaps, to re-colonise philosophy by a an old foe and sometime friend. I say keep indestructibles at arms length. -- Lucas
Can anyone provide a citation for 'an inessential extra added to something complete in itself'? Jeangenie14 14:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"The work of Friedrich Nietzsche is alleged to be a forerunner of deconstruction in form and substance, as Derrida writes in Spurs: Nietzsche's Styles." Does this sentence make sense to anyone? Hay4 09:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Is this section a joke? Seriously, it doesn't seem to relate to the rest of the article at all. If so what about "Pharmakon"?-- 213.122.16.139 16:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the comment
Critics of Deconstruction actually complain that deconstructionists are not making enough effort to be clear.
Proponents of D-ism respond D-ism is complex, and that the critics are not making effort to understand. Phrasing the complaint as "lack of simplicity" sides with the proponents. I move that this line should be changed to "Critics of Deconstruction take issue with what they believe is a lack of seriousness, simplicity and clarity in deconstructive writings,"
Critics actually accuse deconstructionists of using a terminology and writing style thats borderline obfuscation in order to hide a philosophy that's actually rather simple in nature. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.223.177.180 (
talk)
10:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
In the "What deconstruction is not" section the article states:
"Some detractors claim deconstruction amounts to little more than nihilism or relativism."
Then in the "Criticisms of deconstruction" section it states:
"In addition, critics often equate deconstruction with nihilism or relativism and criticize deconstruction accordingly."
This seems repetitive.-- Harpakhrad11 18:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
"Thus, meaning is "out there"" - The idea of meaning being 'out there' as a determinate, objective 'thing' to be discovered directly contradicts the very aspect of meaning that deconstruction seeks to exploit. Following Wittgenstein; meaning is merely the correlate to understanding. And understanding is the ability to handle or respond to something in certain accepted ways which are consensually shared, sanctioned, and inculcated by the community, but nevertheless flexible and relative. It is this indeterminacy that allows the dissemination of variant interpretations that deconstruction relies on. I have read very little Derrida, does he really hold such a view? To do so would be immediately self-stultifying.
Having not read Derrida's critique of Levi-Strauss I'm not sure enough to make the edit myself, but based on my reading of that summary it seems that the sentence
should read
??? It seems like it's Levi-Strauss' denial that is being discussed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cabias ( talk • contribs) 20:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
What does "and proved more forthcoming with negative, rather than a pined-for positive, analyses of the school." mean? I realise it's a slippery topic but would be nice if at least the first few sentences were generally accessible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteCat ( talk • contribs) 05:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a brief note: although I take seriously the criticisms others have of the article, for my money, it's actually damned good. I've just encountered the article for the first time, and though it's clearly somewhat patchy and rousingly multivocal, I genuinely feel that, in fifteen minutes of reading, I gathered not a merely technical grasp of deconstruction, but a--how best to word this?--an emotional feel to go with it. To put it bluntly, this article makes me feel like deconstruction might even be worth seriously investigating, for the first time since I came across the term twenty years ago!
So, first: Thank you to all the many contributors who formed the current crazy-quilt. The article may not be ideal, but it has a something that is very fine, and all too rare.
And, second: Please take great care in preserving the implicit pleasure in ideas this article conveys as you continue to enhance it. NPOV is such a persistent and recurring issue that sometimes it seems like we press and press on an article until every drop of juice is squeezed out. I like my Wikipedia NPOV, but I like it best of all when it illustrates the great joy incumbent in the life of the mind. Cheers GPa Hill ( talk) 03:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)