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The Decline of Buddhism in India is directly linked to the decline of Buddhism in China for several reasons ...
My Sources
( !Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC))
This article seems to reek of bias. Seems to be false information. Do all Indian Buddhists pertain to the view provided in the article ? I seriously doubt it. And the so-called Hindutva view is shared by many other neutral scholars as well. And where are the citations. Please, someone clean up the article. This certainly seems to a POV-pushing agenda. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 13:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Well done. Yeah, you're right. The article certainly needs to be cleaned. I will do some research, get some sources and then remove the false stuff. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 17:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I just deleted a section that blamed the decline on Buddhism's ideas to be faulty. This whole article is a train wreak. Zazaban 00:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
It still seems a bit POV, as though it's talking as if assuming one is not Buddhist but not that one is not Hindu. Zazaban 01:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I still see a slight Hindu POV. Seems to be written s though one was speaking to a Hindu audience. I corrected my error above. Zazaban 01:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Sunga: NPOV states both views must be expressed. If there is disagreement, removing both views is not NPOV nor informative. The Divyaxxx is the source of the persecution allegations alongside a Buddhist tradition, both are cited. Opponents disagree, ergo there is a cloud of doubt, and this is usually attributed to the sense that the Divyaxxx was "exaggerating" or "inaccurate".
Other items that also "disappear" in your revert need to discussed and justified. If you are replacing them with sourced information no problem, but right now they just seem to be deleted or replaced with othere non-sourced information. Lets call the article work in progress, so before making large scale changes lets discuss them, and keep the changes small and localized.-- Tigeroo 13:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually you are, The avatara of Vishnu thing is repeated in your version, the report finds it's place in a list of Buddhism under political rulers, The Shahis for an extended period of time is just written as the initial Shahis, a bulk of meaningless drivel under Adi Shankaracharya (mostly repitition) and more ........ Condense, source, correct instead of enlarge and convert an encyclopedic article into a monstrosity. There are even amateur tiring grammer and styling errors.
Freedom skies 05:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, calm down please. This is not a battlefield. Remember, talkpages are meant for constructive discussions for improving the article. Do not resort to revert-wars unnecessarily. If you have any issues, you can just discuss it here and then edit the article as per the consensus. Revert Wars do not serve any purpose. It will make the other party even more stubborn. Try to find the disagreements and discuss it here. So that even others can take a look in and we can have a meaningful discussion for improving the article. So please, heed my advice and discuss your disagreements calmly. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 10:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually tried to discuss my friend. Tigeroo has unfortunately limited himself to revert warring, something this article does not need. Freedom skies 01:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Timur probably does not belong in this section as he was more central asian located and his conflicts typically ran with the other mongol empires, the cagathai, il khans, golden horde etc. and while he moved in the Afghanistan and Oxus regions, that is not really considered either "India" or even the "Indian sub-continent" and would fall under a Buddhism and Central Asia much more neatly. Correct me, if I am mistaken I am a bit weak on his goings on in the southern regions but I think it was generally away from the area in focus in this article.-- Tigeroo 13:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I've done some copyediting, fixed some typos, and did a bit of re-wording. Probably the most controversial thing I did was change some "saka"s to "sakya"s. Since sakya re-directs to saka, I thought it would be best to keep the nomenclature consistent to the more recognizable version. If you have questions or concerns, please feel free to leave me a message on my talk page or here. Thank you. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 01:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been told that one of the things reviewers like when promoting and article to GA or FA is the use of citation templates for all references. The references are also a bit jumbled. I didn't find a book entitled "Ashoka". Is it short for something? NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 06:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I request both User:Freedom skies and User:Tigeroo to please stop revert-warring. Revert-wars do not help anyone and if you excessively do it, you will unnecessarily get blocked and/or the page will get protected. Please refrain from quick-fix, ego-boosting reverts method. The best way to go about it is discussion. Currently, the version is Tigeroo's. I request Freedon skies to put up his disagreements with the current version here, before reverting. We can discuss, what changes to make. If Tigeroo disagrees, he too can put up his objections here, but don't go on revert-warring please. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 11:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually did think that Tigeroo was sincere but after I accomadated him initially he continued to push versions (including his last revert) that anyone can say are written by an amature. Did you hear about the manual of style, Tigeroo? Try considering it before you revert it to your version which disagrees with something even as basic.
Freedom skies 08:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Could you guys explain your changes and unchanges here please? Thanks, Blnguyen ( bananabucket) 01:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Again you lie, Tigeroo. I tried to talk to you, offer concessions and reach a conclusion, you responded by accepting my concessions while not accomadating my concerns at all, reverting at the pace of your choice, to a version of your choice which is full of Pejorative terms, inconsistencies, mistakes like an extra = in the heading (consistently you revert to this, why not at least correct it?), downplaying on moslem kings, steadfastly sticking to not mentioning Dalai Lana and Dharamapala when the latter predated Ambedekar, repititions of avatar of Vishnu.
I'll get to an overhaul which will mention additional monarchs, full view books and authoritative research papers in Links. That ought to take care of it.
Freedom skies 16:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's see ....... Mass blanking , like your removal of the Islam section ? repititions, like your repeating avatara indiscriminately (thrice) to fake damage inflicted by Hinduism to Buddhism?
This is in addition to further acts highlighting your ignorance, Tigeroo. Your version has a "Financial and Social reasons" heading just before the " Ideological and financial causes" heading. This is in addition to the "Xuanzang's Report" being copied and pasted twice in the same article, once in a list of Buddhism under various governments. Why so bent on pushing monstrosities ?
Before I swept in for grammer and citation corrections and eventually took intrest in the article it was not the least bit credible. Judging by your childish insistance of letting the repititions stay and not correcting till I point you to I can understand why.
I'll see to it that it stays corrected till I overhaul it. I can see that outside of repititions and mistakes I can't count much on you, Tigeroo.
Freedom skies 04:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
So the reference to "Ashoka" has been changed to "Merriam-Webster", which I'm assuming is the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. I'm getting the feeling that all this cited material is actually original research. Can someone elucidate? Thanks. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 03:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I've restructured a couple of paragraphs and taken out some words that didn't really make any sense, such as "alleged". The folks in question are not on trial here. They're all long gone, so it really just comes down to differing opinions of the historical facts we have so far. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 15:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Today I have added Friend of the Western Buddhist Order as wiki-link in the "revival" section and added it to the top of the external links list. I consolidated the external Koenraad Elst links to link to his website. I converted Tigeroo's reference using the citebook template. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 18:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The "The World Economy: a millennial" perspective cited for Jizya is used in a manner of supporting a theory of Aurangzeb vs. Buddhists. The article actually contains no mention of Buddhists. It does mention jizya, conversion of hindu temples, confiscation of non-muslim princely titles and a general abandonment of Mughal religious tolerance. It however makes no mention of Buddhism or Buddhists. Can this replaced with a more appropiate and relevant citation or source vis-a-vis aurangzeb and buddhism's decline.-- Tigeroo 14:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Season's greetings and merry Christmas everyone. I hope you guys enjoy your holidays.
Now, The citation deals with the placing of a head tax on non moslem subjects, something which has very specifically been stated in the sentence for which the citation is used.
And the Islam section covers "But-parast" (Icon worshipper) and Ambedekar's views, not repeated anywhere else in the article.
Freedom skies 19:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
"All I am saying is there must be some other more direct and clear cut citation that we can use rather than one that has to be stretched to be interpreted??"
How a citation recording the imposition of a head tax on non muslims came to be interpreted as "stretched " still escapes me.
Out of sheer courtesy and assumption of good faith I have provided additional references. The sentence in question is "In India, muslim rulers imposed jizya (head tax on non muslims) starting in the 11th century. Aurangzeb levied jizya on his subjects in 1679." for which the citation is accuracy itself.
Verify (The World Economy: a millennial perspective by Angus Maddison, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Development Centre. Seminars (Paris), page 108)
"doesn't this article say that pretty much after Khilji it was all over for Buddhists anyway"
No it does not.
"I don't see a But-parast reference in the section cited either but quite specific mention of Hindus and hindu temples."
Number 32 and 33 in Notes ought to cover it.
Freedom skies 09:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Freedom Skies,
I'm planning to revert your recent edits if you cannot explain why you removed two external links, and why you performed a reversion without a satisfactory explanation in the either the edit summary or on this talk page.
On a more general note, it's important that sources and quotes aren't "cherry-picked". I find it had to believe, for example that the current quote from Dr. Ambedkar is his complete view on the Decline of Buddhism in India. It's also important to not give any view undue weight, or obfuscate reality.
My question about the "one historian" edit remaining unanswered, I'll assume good faith still in any event.
The recent edits carry additional citations and more information about the Ghurid invasion.
As for Dr. Ambedekar's views, they have been stated as found, his sentiments about a particular religion doing more damage to Buddhism in comparision to another religion which has not been known to support conversions can be backed up by more citations on request. With or without "cherry picking" is purely your call.
The links of "Friends of the Western Buddhist Order" or "Buddies of Satan" do not belong in encyclopedic articles. These websites are best left out of articles in any logbook of knowledge. And yes, if you dispute that try accessing the link. You should come across a "Sorry: We're Unable to Locate that Page" sign promptly.
Still planning on reverting ?
Freedom skies 11:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
If you asked about Koenraad Elst, I didn't see it. Like most people, I tend to look for new posts on a talk page at the bottom of the page. Please do that here and on my own talk page.
I would prefer non-cherry-picked everything, as a matter of fact. As long as it doesn't give undue weight. Specifically regarding Dr. Ambedkar, feel free to complete the quote.
As for the "Buddies of Satan", I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. However, you are starting to sound and act disruptive. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 11:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Disruptive users, Nina ?
Like the ones who won't even read a sentence before boldly stating "One Historian" ? or the ones who insist on putting blind links in encyclopedic articles ? or maybe the ones who revert to articles to versions with repeated cut and pasted sections and can't even get a heading straight ?
You're right. The incompetence of those disruptive users is there for everyone to see. Let people arrive at their own conclusions.
Freedom skies 14:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
And for the record, I put in Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, not the other external link. Once again, what exactly is the problem with the FWBO external link? It's mentioned in the article and it's a fact that they are present in contemporary India. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 16:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Well FWBO are not that notable. Their influence in India is yet to be gauged! अमेय आर्यन DaBrood © 16:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The incompetence speaks for itself, Nina. In this edit You go on to proclaim that "One historian has rejected Pushyamitra’s persecution of Buddhists." in the paragraph mentioned below:-
One historian has rejected Pushyamitra’s persecution of Buddhists. The first accounts appear two centuries after Pusyamitra's reign in Asokâvadâna and the Divyâvadâna. Koenraad Elst posits that historical facts confirm that Pushyamitra allowed and patronized the construction of monasteries and Buddhist universities in his domains, as well as the still-existent stupa of Sanchi. While Marshall states that it is possible that the original brick stupa built by Ashoka was destroyed by Pusyamitra and then restored by his successor Agnimitra. Following Ashoka’s sponsorship of Buddhism, it is possible that Buddhist institutions fell on harder times under the Sungas but no evidence of active persecution has been noted. Etienne Lamotte observes: “To judge from the documents, Pushyamitra must be acquitted through lack of proof.”
Your proclaimation of "one historian", however human a mistake it might be, is fradulent. In case you still don't get it there are two historians within the para itself and more in the article if you read it before a repeated attempt to defend the "one historian" routine.
In case you still don't follow, Koenraad Elst and Etienne Lamotte, two people.
And about that link of yours, Nina. here go to the links and access the link. Aside of being unworthy of a mention in any encyclopedia, it's blind/dead/not working.
Freedom skies 17:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
"The citation from Etienne Lamotte leads to a work by Koenraad Elst."
No it does not. You're lying.
Elst's article quotes Lamotte on his independent views about Pushyamitra Sunga, read the notes for additional authors.
And now you have written Two historians contradicting your own little "The citation from Etienne Lamotte leads to a work by Koenraad Elst." line.
There are more now, even the article mentions Romila Thapar. So much for your "two historians" line too, Nina. What are you going to do now? write "three historians" ? Acting like a child and counting the numnber of historians cited and substracting them by one for reasons beyond comprehension is not something people relate to with acts of the sane, I'm sure you know that.
You're begining to act very bizzare and very disruptive, are you ok ?
As for the link. I'll copy and paste it here. Let's see here:-
Friends of the Western Buddhist Order is the first link in this version. Access it.
You lied again, Nina. The link is dead.
Freedom skies 03:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There are serious POV problems on this article and as such I have listed it as {{ pov}} and listed it on the Wikipedia Neutrality Project. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 19:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
"Are you saying Brahmanism is a peregrotive because otherwise I don't see what term you are referring to."
Exactly. Brahminism. Curiously enough you still reverted it to Brahminism.
May I also know the reasons for citing Ambedekar before Dharmpala when Dharmpala predated Ambedekar ? Why insist on breaking chronology to favor agendas?
Freedom skies 07:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a link mentioned in this section as a source, so it cannot be offhandedly removed. There are also the Kalabhras and Xuanzang's report on the Chalukya's. No doubt it can be improved or made more accurate, or even depov'd. But there appears to be enough material that it merits a section.-- Tigeroo 09:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear User:Freedom skies. We seem to have had a communication break down. I am going to invited third parties by posting a request at the mediation cabal to come help us reach an amicable solution. This is a voluntary process, they are not ArbComm or punitive. I am assuming you have a good faith intention to improve the quality of the article, therefore a third opinion may help resolve the conflict.-- Tigeroo 12:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Since this talk page has been turned into a complete confusing mess (with people adding to their own comments long after their initial posting, and in various random places), I have cut and pasted the very heart of my concern where it should be, at the bottom of the talk page. It was originally in response to Ambroodey's assertion that Friend of the Western Buddhist Order were "not notable":
The section is about the revival in Buddhism in India, which itself is very small. Since I knew about FWBO before I ever hit this article, and I'm an ignorant American, I doubt highly it's not notable.
You and Freedom Skies may very well hate FWBO, and think it's evil and dangerous. I think Koenraad Elst is evil and dangerous. Furthermore, I think he's an apologist for a dangerous right-wing Hindu Nationalist organization. In addition, I think he's manipulating good men for his own twisted ends.
But I will defend to the end his right to be in this article. He is here he should be here, and his views should stay. I'm not just talking about this article, I'm talking about almost every article he's cited in. You have my word on that.
Despite what some (or perhaps all) people think, I'm not an idiot. I submit that our readers aren't idiots as well. If you can't see that I'm trying to make this and all articles more credible, and therefore more influential (which helps everybody), then I might as well walk away right now. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 19:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, I'm adding all links in question back into the article. Let others decide if they can read them or not. As for the historians: Freedom Skies, you need to read up on Wikipedia policy on how references can be used. You can't cite a third party if you haven't read him yourself firsthand. It's that simple. I'm talking about Etienne specifically. I also would warn against just plain making stuff up, which is WP:OR. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 15:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I made some minor grammatical changes to the first paragraph in an effort to make the tone and style consistent. A specific note.
References to printed sources should include the following.
Particluar style may be adaptive, the above is the Chicago Manual of Style. However, without such information, there is no way to verify the information.
Additionally, please clarify all dates to BCE or CE, and try to use acurate dates rather than century spans.
Each section, both major and minor, ought to explore one issue. The subsection supporting the development of the larger unit. There is no clear understanding about what the page addresses. Consider usinig the talk page to evaluate the outline presented. In general the Page heading suggests an article describing the decline of buhhdism, (consider giving a date span), but reads more like a simple history. Consider looking at the decline in a timeline fashion, so that the important players/groups fit into a well defined framework. That way their contributions make sense within the larger whole.
Avoid unneccesary information unrelated to the topic. Consider removing references to details that do not specifically address the topic being explored.
I should have also stated earlier, that I do not intend to cast doubt on the content, only the language expressing it. I wish only to help clarify issues that may present difficulties in the neutrality of the article. All of the comments made so far are great, and if some of these ideas were written into the article, it would only make it stronger. Please consider these as they were given, suggestions from an outside source. I really think the diaglouge will help to improve the wording, and ultimately the neutrality of the article.
The relation of the statement re:al-Biruni is unclear to the topic. It could be interpreted as a critisism, suggesting Mahumd of Ghazni is hypocritical in his dealings. Consider evaluating statment for accuracy. Define the purpose that the statement has in developing the topic, and specifically cite sources to confirm this claim. If the argument is not being made in the literature, then it would be inappropriate to make it here. Consider removing it if there is not a clear indication for its inclusion.
The murder of millions of budhhists by arabs ..... Is entriely overlooked in this whitewash of the horrors inflicted upon the human race by the arabs and their religion used to cover up their perfidy, islam . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.187.128 ( talk) 01:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The article contains many instances wherein Buddhist monestaries or idols were destroyed. Nearly every entry contains some reference to them. Such facts would be ideally suited to descrbing the persecution of the time periods, but instead stand alone. As such, the article takes on a tone, however involuntarily, of being condeming of historical religous traditions for these destructions, and ultimately the decline of Buddhism, without relevant data to support that claim. Ultimately I find that when working on this article, there were many points were it felt as though I were reading a thesis. Consider reworking the article in accordance with some of my general style comments. Place the list of references to persecution within a framework that shows their relative impact on the decline. Additionally, seeking to come to a consensus on the topic of the article might bear out most of the disputes concerning its neutrality.
I put them in chronological in appearance in the intro. While Dharmapala was indeed a pioneer, Ambedkar is the one who has had the most influence, and coutinues to do so to this day. He is easily the more famous and notable of them therefore skipping him or passing over reference to can be described as incredelous.-- Tigeroo 15:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Qasim was not like Ghazni, his Buddhists were not just the Samani's of Nerun, as the quote you use implies. Please read up some on him and visit the sources and the context of why he got his support. He did demolish a handful of stupas in select captured town, but even more important was his adoption of the more liberal Hanafi school of thought and the way he initiated policies such as inclusion of Shramanis and Brahmins into the administration, contractually accepting their places of worship for upkeep, maintenance. Also important is the rate of conversion and the sector that conversion came from. When he placed the jizya on them what did that mean? What was the nature of it?
It is out of the BBC News article you cite for your evanligize quote. However by mixing it with the other quote you are mischarecterzing both sources. Obviously the article also see's no dispute between evangelization and supression by Hindu monarchs. Maybe you should clarify the context it is used in the article rather than pulling up the singular sentence on it's own.
If you feel there are any parts that "I have made up" please use the fact tag so that I know what you are talking about and can then address them specifically by either removing them myself or bringing in the source material to back them up.-- Tigeroo 15:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hope this helps:). Will work on Decline of Buddhism in China as well. Nina Odell 17:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The reasons are listed in indivual edits as well up here in the talk page. Please explain why you are reverting. For even more explanations they are listed at the Mediation page for this article please contribute constructively. Or atleast indicate in your summary what you have done. Reference to a tool is not really sufficient explanation.-- Tigeroo 19:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
. Who is "Jayant Gadkari"??? Any historian or scholar? Does he have any publis? Nonetheless both Gadkari and Karunyakara refs seem to indicate about Shashanka. My point is that the Chalukya thing be explained that it is a war situation when the stupas etc were destroyed and not an act conducted during peacetime.Perhaps we should cite reliable sources like Thapar etc. rather then people we don't know anything about. What is the way to verify academic credentials of Gadkari and Karunyakara? The Hemingway ref [9] does not seem to attest to any specific religious persecution as such. it says Buddhist shrines were ruined and deserted. It could have been due to neglect rather than deliberate demolition. It is certain that the Chalukyas were biased against Buddhists and preferred Vaishnavism, but the ref does not say that the Chalukyas actively destroyed the Buddhist shrines, merely didn't care about them. Without state support, they decayed. Rumpelstiltskin223 22:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag to this article due to a report on the Wikipedia Neutrality Project. Please discuss the POV problems here, and please do not remove the tags until the issues have been resolved, and when you do, please leave a note on the WNP request on it so we know to close the request.
The rationale for the report which was filed is as follows:
“ | There has been some serious POV presented on this article from multiple sides. A serious content dispute has arisen and the NPOV policy needs enforced. May require MedCom/ArbCom intervention. | ” |
On the behalf of the Wikipedia Neutrality Project, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 01:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Please reference my comments above for any help that I can offer.
Phillip, if you're going to remove the info concerning the decline of Buddhism in India and two unsourced statements (1: the role of absorption of Buddhist concepts into Hinduism and 2: causes within Buddhism as it was practiced at the time), then you'd better also remove the mention of the 'white huns' and 'support of the kings'. Take them all out or leave them all in. Or find some sources to what you want to keep in. Greetings, Sacca 15:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Checkuser has identified Phillip Rosenthal as a likely sockpuppet of Freedom skies. JFD 06:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I've deleted the following from the Buddhism article, as I don't think all this detail belongs in such a general article. I put it here for any use it may be to this article.
Buddhism was established in the northern regions of India and Central Asia, and kingdoms with Buddhist rulers such as Menander I and Kaniska. Under the rule of tolerant or even sympathetic Greco-Bactrian and Iranian Achaemenid kings, Buddhism flourished. The rulers of the Kushāna Empire adopted Buddhism, and it continued to thrive in the region under the rule of the Turk-Shāhīs.
Buddhists were briefly persecuted under the Zoroastrian priest-king Kirder. Syncretism between Zoroastrianism and Buddhism had resulted in the rise of a 'Buddha-Mazda' divinity, which Kirder treated as heresy. [6]
The Hinayana traditions first spread among the Turkic tribes before combining with the Mahayana forms during the 2nd and 3rd centuries BCE to cover modern-day Pakistan, Kashmir, Afghanistan, eastern and coastal Iran, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan. These were the ancient states of Gandhara, Bactria, Parthia and Sogdia from where it spread to China. Among the first of these Turkic tribes to adopt Buddhism was the Turki- Shahi who adopted Buddhism as early as the 3rd century BCE. It was not, however, the exclusive faith of this region. There were also Zoroastrians, Hindus, Nestorian Christians, Jews, Manichaeans, and followers of shamanism, Tengrism, and other indigenous, nonorganized systems of belief.
From the 4th Century CE on, Hindu dynasties had achieved preeminence elsewhere in India. Even in regions of Buddhist predominance, such as the northwest ( Pañjāb) and the lower Gangetic plain ( Uttar Pradesh and Bengal), the Indian caste system was found. In political contests between Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms, Buddhist rulers were gradually replaced by Hindu ones. By the 4th to 5th century Buddhism was already in decline in northern India, even though it was achieving multiple successes in Central Asia and along the Silk Road as far as China.
The Buddhist states of Central Asia were weakened in the 6th century following the invasion of the White Huns and Buddhism suffered as recorded by Xuanzang. Later Buddhist regions in Central Asia came either under the sway of the Persian Sāsānids or Tibet. When the Muslim Arabs overthrew the Sāssānids they encountered Buddhists in the eastern provinces of the Persian Empire. They called them by the Persian name of butparast, literally meaning "buddha-worshipper", although the term has come to be used generally for any religion in which cult images play a role. Several high officials of the Abbāsid Caliphate, notably the Barmakids, were descended from these East Iranian Buddhists.
When Muhammad bin Qāsim led the invasion of Sindh at the mouth of the Indus river, he was aided by some Buddhists in his campaign against their Hindu overlord, Rājā Dahir. Relations with later Iranian rulers such as the Saffarids and Samanids were more difficult; Buddhist monasteries and stūpas were not exempt from looting under Arab rule. [7]
After the disintegration of the Abbāsid Caliphate, the Muslim Turks rose to prominence among the Persian emirates that emerged in Central Asia and Afghanistan. In the 10th century CE, one of them, Mahmūd of Ghaznī, defeated the Hindō-Shāhīs and finally brought the region firmly under Muslim rule through Afghanistan and the Pañjāb. He demolished monasteries alongside temples during his raid across north-western India but left those within his domains and Afghanistan alone and al-Biruni recorded the Buddha as a prophet "burxan", the Mongolian word for a Buddha.
The originally pagan Turkic tribes who lived in western Central Asia converted to Islām as they came to be increasingly influenced by Persian culture. As the Turkic tribes of Central Asia battled for control of land, similarly an ideological battle waged within them as Sufis, faced with an increasing hostile environment in Arabia, moved to Transoxania and found fertile ground here for converts among the Buddhist and non-Buddhist Turkic tribes alike. Buddhism persisted, together with Christianity, Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism, and shamanism in areas to the east (modern Xinjiang) for several centuries, which did not become overwhelmingly Muslim until the 15th century CE; however, under the two-pronged onslaught Buddhism waned and over time Central Asia gradually became predominantly Muslim.
In 1215 Genghis Khan conquered Afghanistan and his horde devastated the local population indiscriminately; in 1227 after his death his conquest was divided and Chagatai established the Chagatai Khanate while Hulegu established the Il Khanate where Buddhism was the state religion across Muslim lands. In the Chagatai Khanate the Buddhist Turkic tribes slowly converted to Islam, including the occasional Khan. [8] When Tarmashirin came to power he made Islam the official religion of the region in 1326. In the Il Khanate, Hulegu and his successors Abaqa and Arghun also established Buddhism as the state religion but were hostile to the Muslims. Many mosques were destroyed and numerous stupas built; however, when Ghazan came to power in 1295 and converted he reverted the state religion to Islam and the climate became hostile towards Buddhism. Today no stupas built by the earlier Mongol Khans survive, and after Ghazan's reign little mention of Buddhism can be found in Afghanistan and Central Asia. [9]
Buddhists retained power in parts of northern India, in Kaśmīr and especially in Bengal, where the Buddhist Pāla kings ruled from the 8th–12th centuries CE. These last Buddhist strongholds played an important role in the evolution of the Vajrayāna and the transmission of that form of Buddhism to Tibet before they collapsed under assault from the Hindu Sena dynasty.
Elsewhere in India, Buddhism suffered from pressure by Hindu dynasties, such as the increasingly powerful Rajputs, as well as competition from a Hinduism that had gained ideological coherence and emotional vigor from such movements as Vedānta philosophy and Bhakti devotionalism. One symptom of increased Hindu confidence with regard to Buddhism was the identification of the Buddha as an avatāra of the Hindu god Vishnu – an identification which contradicted basic Buddhist understandings and the Buddha's own unequivocal words about the nature of a Buddha and of nirvāna.
In 1193, only a few decades after the fall of the Pāla kingdom, Muhammad Khiljī destroyed Nālandā, the great Buddhist university. Khiljī was one of the generals of Qutbuddīn Aybak, a subject of the Afghan Ghurids but soon to become the monarch of a Muslim sultanate at Delhi. Khiljī's march across northern India caused a precipitous decline in the fortunes of Indian Buddhism, as he destroyed Buddhist walled monasteries fortified by the Sena kings (which he thought were cities), killed the monks and burned their libraries. At about the same time, the Buddhist king of Maldives, a country that had been trading with Bengal, converted to Islam and ordered all his subjects to do likewise.
After the Mongol invasions of Islamic lands across Central Asia, many Sufis also found themselves fleeing towards the newly established Islamic lands in India around the environs of Bengal. Here their influence, caste attitudes towards Buddhists, previous familiarity with Buddhism, lack of Buddhist political power or social structure along with Hinduism's revival movements such as Advaita and the rise of the syncretic bhakti movement, all contributed to a significant realignment of beliefs relegating Buddhism in India to the peripheries.
By the 13th century CE, Buddhism had become a marginal religion in central India; without a monastic infrastructure, Buddhism could not easily maintain its identity, and many Buddhists, especially in Bengal, were converted to Islām, Hinduism, or left for the Himalayan foothills. In Kaśmīr Buddhism remained a significant religion down to the early 15th century, when it was displaced by Islām and Hinduism, except among the Tibetan peoples of Ladakh.
Elements of Buddhism have remained within India to the current day: the Bauls of Bengal have a syncretic set of practices with strong emphasis on many Buddhist concepts. Other areas of India have never parted from Buddhism, including Ladakh and other Himalayan regions with a primarily Tibetan population. Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim are the other Indian states where Buddhism is practiced in great numbers. The Newars of Nepal also retain a form of Buddhism that differs from the Buddhism of Tibet. Furthermore, much of Buddhist philosophy was eventually absorbed into Hinduism.
Peter jackson 13:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
See the following link for the word appearing in a dictionary. Not to mention that it is a word used in numerous scholarly works which define it as a particular version of hinduism that existed alongside Buddhism in the early part of the first millennium, see discussions above on the subject.-- Tigeroo 17:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Is a primary source. It's WP:OR to quote it as is "IndoHistorians analysis" on it. The excessive focus to it is also results in undue weight age being given to both the Chachnama as well as Qasim in the context of the article.-- Tigeroo 11:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This is a potentially contentious topic, and could turn into a slanging match among various forms of religious fundamentalism in India today. Please take care with the 'facts' being presented in these pages; as religious bigots of various hues are known to be active on the Net, insulting and blaming each other's religion.
^ Agreed, there seem to be many factually 'anti' correct edits since I last saw this page, I would loathe to get into an edit war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.69.128.111 ( talk) 11:25, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, this is page is a glory. While I understand the political climate and refrain from any kind of incitation in the main page. Please, remember that we exist. Love from Bangladesh. Whoever wants truth would find it and find peace.And whoever wants to run away from it would try to find social acceptance, but they would always continue to see strife and eternal turmoil. It wasn't the reality that was in turmoil, but their own eternal selves. How else would you define peace other than the ability to see order, where others see chaos? Rmraihan ( talk) 08:26, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
This article puts the decline primarily down to two sources; violent Hindu repression and violent Muslim repression. The collapse of Buddhism is in fact due to socioeconomic changes. Buddhism required strong central authorities to collect and channel economic surplus to monasteries. As Brahmins took increasing control over the economic structure of India in expanding the scope of the caste system, power became localized and it was impossible for strong states to form. Buddhism withered inversely with this process. I am added this material, found in The Sociology of Philosophies, by Randall Collins, published by Harvard University Press. Mitsube ( talk) 01:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed those two sentences for a couple of reasons, none of them being because they are inaccurate:
Hope this helps explain it. If you agree with the above we can remove them as well.-- Tigeroo ( talk) 08:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The genocide is mentioned in one whopping sentence, surely it deserves greater recognition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.195.150.25 ( talk) 09:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
This article needs to also consider the state of Buddhism in modern India. I have checked the other articles such as History of Buddhism in India, and they do not seem to have treated this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.2.101 ( talk) 17:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I would like to raise my concerns over the reference material used in this article. Writer seldomnly mentiones any Indian sources to outline the causes of decline of Buddhism. Here and there, writer used the Indian reference from B. R. Ambedkar who was severely biased against structure of the Sanatan Dharm. Not sure if this article sheds any insights on causes of decline. Those who point fingures at Brahmins, should know that, Theravada and Vajrayaan branches were established by Brahmins.
Richard Gombrich, Peter Harvey and Randall Collins were frequently used - some of the points that's been excerpted from their work... for instance, "While Shankara is given credit for the defeat of Buddhism in Hindu literature, he was in fact active after Buddhism had faded from prominence in some areas. In particular, he was not a contemporary of the great Indian Buddhist philosopher, Dharmakirti. When Shankara came north to the intellectual centers there, he borrowed many of the ideas that had been formulated by Buddhist philosophers of the past.[55]" are absolutely their own opinion.
By looking at the Adi Shankar's work, Buddhist idea's were predominantly neglected in his approach.
Do not know what message writer wants to convey in this article.- Saarleya 141.160.26.251 ( talk) 06:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Almost all the works relating to Decline of Buddhism declare unanimously that Sri Sankara was the one who did it. The wikipedia itself has references to refute this. Buddhism was decaying much before Sankara's time due to reasons such as 1. too much dependance on ascetism 2. Tantric interference in Buddhistic thought 3. Lack of enthusiasm of rulers in Buddhism.
According to the current version of history dismantling of Buddhism began in full force in Tamilnadu which was begun by Appar in the fifth century, i.e before Sri Sankara. Appar and Sambandar's ground work almost pushed Bouddha and Jaina sects to the fringe of the society eventually leading to their decline.
Given this all references such as " Buddha's embrace of Buddhism was fatal" are without any ground whatsoever. It is also equally unclear why Sankara will embrace the thoughts of a dying sect.
The only reasonable explanation may be that " Sankara learned Buddhism to negate its philosophy." I think the quoting of many scholars in bits and pieces as confirmed opinion is misleading. Not a single Sankaracharya is quoted nor any Smartha or Advaita practitioner quoted in this subject. The whole article has to be deleted immediately.
The sentence "By that time, Buddhism had become especially vulnerable to hostile rulers because it lacked strong roots in society as most of its adherents were ascetic communities." is sourced to....Max Weber: an intellectual portrait By Reinhard Bendix??? Seems like a source which is not on the topic of the article. — goethean 18:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
That is not what Taranath mentions. There is no support whatsoever of Buddhist persecution by the Senas, although it is widely mentioned in textbooks in West Bengal and Bangladesh.
For continuation of Buddhism during Sena period see
Malaiya ( talk) 03:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
How can you use the term Hinduism since it is a western invention? 'Hindu' is not even an Indian term, but of Persian origin - Hindustani! This shows how problematic Wikipedia is! You do not spread knowledge, but common misconceptions! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.10.2.149 ( talk) 22:11, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
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Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#POV pushing
Could you please tell me how I'm POV pushing? Chittagong is not located in India, it's in Bangladesh so how is that POV pushing? The incorrect information was located in the section, "Survival of Buddhism in India". Chittagong and the people of Chittagong people are not part of India or Indian, I was only removing incorrect information so I reverted your edit. ( 121.219.51.186 ( talk) 02:49, 13 February 2017 (UTC))
@ 101.160.163.49:, This source is non- WP:RS and suggests possible WP:COI, because the article declares at the end that "The writer is a grand-niece of the Anagarika". Do you have a peer reviewed scholarly source? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 10:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
ok — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.121.76.246 ( talk) 14:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Capitals00: I suppose that the first part of the following is a WP:COPYVIOLATION?
Conversion from Buddhism to Hinduism is a stock story in Buddhist and Hindu sources. Taranatha's History of Buddhism in India records one such example under Muslim invasions, "There is no doubt that many siddhas and sadhakas lived at this period. But since the karma of the people in general was unalterable, all these could not be prevented. At that most of the yogi followers of Gauraksa were fools and, driven by greed of money and honour offered by the tirthika kings, became followers of Isvara ( Shiva). They used to say, 'We are not opposed even to the Turuksas (Turks).' Only a few of them belonging to the Natesvari-varga remained insiders (Buddhists)." [10]
References
The source, Elverskog, writes:
The shift away from Buddhism toward Hinduism is in fact a stock story in both Buddhist and Hindu sources. One such example is found in the Tibetan historian Taranatha's early seventeenth-century History of Buddhism in India:
Actually, I find the quote quite odd. It was at the wrong place, in a section on conversion to Hinduism in the post-Gupta era; if it is to be used, it should be in the section on the Muslim invasions. And the preceding alinea is actually more interesting; it describes how tantric Buddhism became more and more obscure, leading to a growing appeal of Hindu devotionalism for "the Indian masses." I've added that piece of information. On a personal note, I can understand that Bhakti is more appealing than cryptic Tantrism. Tantric texts are hard to follow, while devotion is intuitively appealing, and a concrete and practical way to embody and practice your religion.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!
06:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
But... checking Elverskog, regarding the "increasingly esoteric nature of tantric Buddhism," it turns out that he is quoting David Gordon White, (2012), The Alchemical Body: Siddha Traditions in Medieval India, p.7, who is writing about Hindu tantrism... According to White, only the Nath Siddhas remained attractive, because they were concerned with the attainment of wordly power, not with abstract metaphysics.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!
06:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: Actually My Lord was correct with his removal. See this the IP introduced same content that has been already explained here. He in fact copied it from Buddhism and Hinduism without attribution. Basically, Competition from Hinduism and Jainism is same as Loss of patronage and donations. Capitals00 ( talk) 18:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
This article already has a subsection that illustrates the persecution of Budddhists by Islamic Dynasties. Why not create another one, detailing the persection of Buddhists by Hindu dynasties ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodhiupasaka ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Decline of Buddhism in India is directly linked to the decline of Buddhism in China for several reasons ...
My Sources
( !Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC))
This article seems to reek of bias. Seems to be false information. Do all Indian Buddhists pertain to the view provided in the article ? I seriously doubt it. And the so-called Hindutva view is shared by many other neutral scholars as well. And where are the citations. Please, someone clean up the article. This certainly seems to a POV-pushing agenda. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 13:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Well done. Yeah, you're right. The article certainly needs to be cleaned. I will do some research, get some sources and then remove the false stuff. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 17:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I just deleted a section that blamed the decline on Buddhism's ideas to be faulty. This whole article is a train wreak. Zazaban 00:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
It still seems a bit POV, as though it's talking as if assuming one is not Buddhist but not that one is not Hindu. Zazaban 01:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I still see a slight Hindu POV. Seems to be written s though one was speaking to a Hindu audience. I corrected my error above. Zazaban 01:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Sunga: NPOV states both views must be expressed. If there is disagreement, removing both views is not NPOV nor informative. The Divyaxxx is the source of the persecution allegations alongside a Buddhist tradition, both are cited. Opponents disagree, ergo there is a cloud of doubt, and this is usually attributed to the sense that the Divyaxxx was "exaggerating" or "inaccurate".
Other items that also "disappear" in your revert need to discussed and justified. If you are replacing them with sourced information no problem, but right now they just seem to be deleted or replaced with othere non-sourced information. Lets call the article work in progress, so before making large scale changes lets discuss them, and keep the changes small and localized.-- Tigeroo 13:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually you are, The avatara of Vishnu thing is repeated in your version, the report finds it's place in a list of Buddhism under political rulers, The Shahis for an extended period of time is just written as the initial Shahis, a bulk of meaningless drivel under Adi Shankaracharya (mostly repitition) and more ........ Condense, source, correct instead of enlarge and convert an encyclopedic article into a monstrosity. There are even amateur tiring grammer and styling errors.
Freedom skies 05:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, calm down please. This is not a battlefield. Remember, talkpages are meant for constructive discussions for improving the article. Do not resort to revert-wars unnecessarily. If you have any issues, you can just discuss it here and then edit the article as per the consensus. Revert Wars do not serve any purpose. It will make the other party even more stubborn. Try to find the disagreements and discuss it here. So that even others can take a look in and we can have a meaningful discussion for improving the article. So please, heed my advice and discuss your disagreements calmly. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 10:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually tried to discuss my friend. Tigeroo has unfortunately limited himself to revert warring, something this article does not need. Freedom skies 01:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Timur probably does not belong in this section as he was more central asian located and his conflicts typically ran with the other mongol empires, the cagathai, il khans, golden horde etc. and while he moved in the Afghanistan and Oxus regions, that is not really considered either "India" or even the "Indian sub-continent" and would fall under a Buddhism and Central Asia much more neatly. Correct me, if I am mistaken I am a bit weak on his goings on in the southern regions but I think it was generally away from the area in focus in this article.-- Tigeroo 13:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I've done some copyediting, fixed some typos, and did a bit of re-wording. Probably the most controversial thing I did was change some "saka"s to "sakya"s. Since sakya re-directs to saka, I thought it would be best to keep the nomenclature consistent to the more recognizable version. If you have questions or concerns, please feel free to leave me a message on my talk page or here. Thank you. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 01:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been told that one of the things reviewers like when promoting and article to GA or FA is the use of citation templates for all references. The references are also a bit jumbled. I didn't find a book entitled "Ashoka". Is it short for something? NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 06:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I request both User:Freedom skies and User:Tigeroo to please stop revert-warring. Revert-wars do not help anyone and if you excessively do it, you will unnecessarily get blocked and/or the page will get protected. Please refrain from quick-fix, ego-boosting reverts method. The best way to go about it is discussion. Currently, the version is Tigeroo's. I request Freedon skies to put up his disagreements with the current version here, before reverting. We can discuss, what changes to make. If Tigeroo disagrees, he too can put up his objections here, but don't go on revert-warring please. -- N R S | T/ M\ B 11:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually did think that Tigeroo was sincere but after I accomadated him initially he continued to push versions (including his last revert) that anyone can say are written by an amature. Did you hear about the manual of style, Tigeroo? Try considering it before you revert it to your version which disagrees with something even as basic.
Freedom skies 08:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Could you guys explain your changes and unchanges here please? Thanks, Blnguyen ( bananabucket) 01:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Again you lie, Tigeroo. I tried to talk to you, offer concessions and reach a conclusion, you responded by accepting my concessions while not accomadating my concerns at all, reverting at the pace of your choice, to a version of your choice which is full of Pejorative terms, inconsistencies, mistakes like an extra = in the heading (consistently you revert to this, why not at least correct it?), downplaying on moslem kings, steadfastly sticking to not mentioning Dalai Lana and Dharamapala when the latter predated Ambedekar, repititions of avatar of Vishnu.
I'll get to an overhaul which will mention additional monarchs, full view books and authoritative research papers in Links. That ought to take care of it.
Freedom skies 16:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's see ....... Mass blanking , like your removal of the Islam section ? repititions, like your repeating avatara indiscriminately (thrice) to fake damage inflicted by Hinduism to Buddhism?
This is in addition to further acts highlighting your ignorance, Tigeroo. Your version has a "Financial and Social reasons" heading just before the " Ideological and financial causes" heading. This is in addition to the "Xuanzang's Report" being copied and pasted twice in the same article, once in a list of Buddhism under various governments. Why so bent on pushing monstrosities ?
Before I swept in for grammer and citation corrections and eventually took intrest in the article it was not the least bit credible. Judging by your childish insistance of letting the repititions stay and not correcting till I point you to I can understand why.
I'll see to it that it stays corrected till I overhaul it. I can see that outside of repititions and mistakes I can't count much on you, Tigeroo.
Freedom skies 04:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
So the reference to "Ashoka" has been changed to "Merriam-Webster", which I'm assuming is the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. I'm getting the feeling that all this cited material is actually original research. Can someone elucidate? Thanks. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 03:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I've restructured a couple of paragraphs and taken out some words that didn't really make any sense, such as "alleged". The folks in question are not on trial here. They're all long gone, so it really just comes down to differing opinions of the historical facts we have so far. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 15:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Today I have added Friend of the Western Buddhist Order as wiki-link in the "revival" section and added it to the top of the external links list. I consolidated the external Koenraad Elst links to link to his website. I converted Tigeroo's reference using the citebook template. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 18:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The "The World Economy: a millennial" perspective cited for Jizya is used in a manner of supporting a theory of Aurangzeb vs. Buddhists. The article actually contains no mention of Buddhists. It does mention jizya, conversion of hindu temples, confiscation of non-muslim princely titles and a general abandonment of Mughal religious tolerance. It however makes no mention of Buddhism or Buddhists. Can this replaced with a more appropiate and relevant citation or source vis-a-vis aurangzeb and buddhism's decline.-- Tigeroo 14:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Season's greetings and merry Christmas everyone. I hope you guys enjoy your holidays.
Now, The citation deals with the placing of a head tax on non moslem subjects, something which has very specifically been stated in the sentence for which the citation is used.
And the Islam section covers "But-parast" (Icon worshipper) and Ambedekar's views, not repeated anywhere else in the article.
Freedom skies 19:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
"All I am saying is there must be some other more direct and clear cut citation that we can use rather than one that has to be stretched to be interpreted??"
How a citation recording the imposition of a head tax on non muslims came to be interpreted as "stretched " still escapes me.
Out of sheer courtesy and assumption of good faith I have provided additional references. The sentence in question is "In India, muslim rulers imposed jizya (head tax on non muslims) starting in the 11th century. Aurangzeb levied jizya on his subjects in 1679." for which the citation is accuracy itself.
Verify (The World Economy: a millennial perspective by Angus Maddison, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Development Centre. Seminars (Paris), page 108)
"doesn't this article say that pretty much after Khilji it was all over for Buddhists anyway"
No it does not.
"I don't see a But-parast reference in the section cited either but quite specific mention of Hindus and hindu temples."
Number 32 and 33 in Notes ought to cover it.
Freedom skies 09:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Freedom Skies,
I'm planning to revert your recent edits if you cannot explain why you removed two external links, and why you performed a reversion without a satisfactory explanation in the either the edit summary or on this talk page.
On a more general note, it's important that sources and quotes aren't "cherry-picked". I find it had to believe, for example that the current quote from Dr. Ambedkar is his complete view on the Decline of Buddhism in India. It's also important to not give any view undue weight, or obfuscate reality.
My question about the "one historian" edit remaining unanswered, I'll assume good faith still in any event.
The recent edits carry additional citations and more information about the Ghurid invasion.
As for Dr. Ambedekar's views, they have been stated as found, his sentiments about a particular religion doing more damage to Buddhism in comparision to another religion which has not been known to support conversions can be backed up by more citations on request. With or without "cherry picking" is purely your call.
The links of "Friends of the Western Buddhist Order" or "Buddies of Satan" do not belong in encyclopedic articles. These websites are best left out of articles in any logbook of knowledge. And yes, if you dispute that try accessing the link. You should come across a "Sorry: We're Unable to Locate that Page" sign promptly.
Still planning on reverting ?
Freedom skies 11:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
If you asked about Koenraad Elst, I didn't see it. Like most people, I tend to look for new posts on a talk page at the bottom of the page. Please do that here and on my own talk page.
I would prefer non-cherry-picked everything, as a matter of fact. As long as it doesn't give undue weight. Specifically regarding Dr. Ambedkar, feel free to complete the quote.
As for the "Buddies of Satan", I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. However, you are starting to sound and act disruptive. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 11:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Disruptive users, Nina ?
Like the ones who won't even read a sentence before boldly stating "One Historian" ? or the ones who insist on putting blind links in encyclopedic articles ? or maybe the ones who revert to articles to versions with repeated cut and pasted sections and can't even get a heading straight ?
You're right. The incompetence of those disruptive users is there for everyone to see. Let people arrive at their own conclusions.
Freedom skies 14:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
And for the record, I put in Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, not the other external link. Once again, what exactly is the problem with the FWBO external link? It's mentioned in the article and it's a fact that they are present in contemporary India. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 16:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Well FWBO are not that notable. Their influence in India is yet to be gauged! अमेय आर्यन DaBrood © 16:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The incompetence speaks for itself, Nina. In this edit You go on to proclaim that "One historian has rejected Pushyamitra’s persecution of Buddhists." in the paragraph mentioned below:-
One historian has rejected Pushyamitra’s persecution of Buddhists. The first accounts appear two centuries after Pusyamitra's reign in Asokâvadâna and the Divyâvadâna. Koenraad Elst posits that historical facts confirm that Pushyamitra allowed and patronized the construction of monasteries and Buddhist universities in his domains, as well as the still-existent stupa of Sanchi. While Marshall states that it is possible that the original brick stupa built by Ashoka was destroyed by Pusyamitra and then restored by his successor Agnimitra. Following Ashoka’s sponsorship of Buddhism, it is possible that Buddhist institutions fell on harder times under the Sungas but no evidence of active persecution has been noted. Etienne Lamotte observes: “To judge from the documents, Pushyamitra must be acquitted through lack of proof.”
Your proclaimation of "one historian", however human a mistake it might be, is fradulent. In case you still don't get it there are two historians within the para itself and more in the article if you read it before a repeated attempt to defend the "one historian" routine.
In case you still don't follow, Koenraad Elst and Etienne Lamotte, two people.
And about that link of yours, Nina. here go to the links and access the link. Aside of being unworthy of a mention in any encyclopedia, it's blind/dead/not working.
Freedom skies 17:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
"The citation from Etienne Lamotte leads to a work by Koenraad Elst."
No it does not. You're lying.
Elst's article quotes Lamotte on his independent views about Pushyamitra Sunga, read the notes for additional authors.
And now you have written Two historians contradicting your own little "The citation from Etienne Lamotte leads to a work by Koenraad Elst." line.
There are more now, even the article mentions Romila Thapar. So much for your "two historians" line too, Nina. What are you going to do now? write "three historians" ? Acting like a child and counting the numnber of historians cited and substracting them by one for reasons beyond comprehension is not something people relate to with acts of the sane, I'm sure you know that.
You're begining to act very bizzare and very disruptive, are you ok ?
As for the link. I'll copy and paste it here. Let's see here:-
Friends of the Western Buddhist Order is the first link in this version. Access it.
You lied again, Nina. The link is dead.
Freedom skies 03:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There are serious POV problems on this article and as such I have listed it as {{ pov}} and listed it on the Wikipedia Neutrality Project. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 19:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
"Are you saying Brahmanism is a peregrotive because otherwise I don't see what term you are referring to."
Exactly. Brahminism. Curiously enough you still reverted it to Brahminism.
May I also know the reasons for citing Ambedekar before Dharmpala when Dharmpala predated Ambedekar ? Why insist on breaking chronology to favor agendas?
Freedom skies 07:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a link mentioned in this section as a source, so it cannot be offhandedly removed. There are also the Kalabhras and Xuanzang's report on the Chalukya's. No doubt it can be improved or made more accurate, or even depov'd. But there appears to be enough material that it merits a section.-- Tigeroo 09:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear User:Freedom skies. We seem to have had a communication break down. I am going to invited third parties by posting a request at the mediation cabal to come help us reach an amicable solution. This is a voluntary process, they are not ArbComm or punitive. I am assuming you have a good faith intention to improve the quality of the article, therefore a third opinion may help resolve the conflict.-- Tigeroo 12:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Since this talk page has been turned into a complete confusing mess (with people adding to their own comments long after their initial posting, and in various random places), I have cut and pasted the very heart of my concern where it should be, at the bottom of the talk page. It was originally in response to Ambroodey's assertion that Friend of the Western Buddhist Order were "not notable":
The section is about the revival in Buddhism in India, which itself is very small. Since I knew about FWBO before I ever hit this article, and I'm an ignorant American, I doubt highly it's not notable.
You and Freedom Skies may very well hate FWBO, and think it's evil and dangerous. I think Koenraad Elst is evil and dangerous. Furthermore, I think he's an apologist for a dangerous right-wing Hindu Nationalist organization. In addition, I think he's manipulating good men for his own twisted ends.
But I will defend to the end his right to be in this article. He is here he should be here, and his views should stay. I'm not just talking about this article, I'm talking about almost every article he's cited in. You have my word on that.
Despite what some (or perhaps all) people think, I'm not an idiot. I submit that our readers aren't idiots as well. If you can't see that I'm trying to make this and all articles more credible, and therefore more influential (which helps everybody), then I might as well walk away right now. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 19:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, I'm adding all links in question back into the article. Let others decide if they can read them or not. As for the historians: Freedom Skies, you need to read up on Wikipedia policy on how references can be used. You can't cite a third party if you haven't read him yourself firsthand. It's that simple. I'm talking about Etienne specifically. I also would warn against just plain making stuff up, which is WP:OR. NinaEliza ( talk • contribs • logs) 15:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I made some minor grammatical changes to the first paragraph in an effort to make the tone and style consistent. A specific note.
References to printed sources should include the following.
Particluar style may be adaptive, the above is the Chicago Manual of Style. However, without such information, there is no way to verify the information.
Additionally, please clarify all dates to BCE or CE, and try to use acurate dates rather than century spans.
Each section, both major and minor, ought to explore one issue. The subsection supporting the development of the larger unit. There is no clear understanding about what the page addresses. Consider usinig the talk page to evaluate the outline presented. In general the Page heading suggests an article describing the decline of buhhdism, (consider giving a date span), but reads more like a simple history. Consider looking at the decline in a timeline fashion, so that the important players/groups fit into a well defined framework. That way their contributions make sense within the larger whole.
Avoid unneccesary information unrelated to the topic. Consider removing references to details that do not specifically address the topic being explored.
I should have also stated earlier, that I do not intend to cast doubt on the content, only the language expressing it. I wish only to help clarify issues that may present difficulties in the neutrality of the article. All of the comments made so far are great, and if some of these ideas were written into the article, it would only make it stronger. Please consider these as they were given, suggestions from an outside source. I really think the diaglouge will help to improve the wording, and ultimately the neutrality of the article.
The relation of the statement re:al-Biruni is unclear to the topic. It could be interpreted as a critisism, suggesting Mahumd of Ghazni is hypocritical in his dealings. Consider evaluating statment for accuracy. Define the purpose that the statement has in developing the topic, and specifically cite sources to confirm this claim. If the argument is not being made in the literature, then it would be inappropriate to make it here. Consider removing it if there is not a clear indication for its inclusion.
The murder of millions of budhhists by arabs ..... Is entriely overlooked in this whitewash of the horrors inflicted upon the human race by the arabs and their religion used to cover up their perfidy, islam . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.187.128 ( talk) 01:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The article contains many instances wherein Buddhist monestaries or idols were destroyed. Nearly every entry contains some reference to them. Such facts would be ideally suited to descrbing the persecution of the time periods, but instead stand alone. As such, the article takes on a tone, however involuntarily, of being condeming of historical religous traditions for these destructions, and ultimately the decline of Buddhism, without relevant data to support that claim. Ultimately I find that when working on this article, there were many points were it felt as though I were reading a thesis. Consider reworking the article in accordance with some of my general style comments. Place the list of references to persecution within a framework that shows their relative impact on the decline. Additionally, seeking to come to a consensus on the topic of the article might bear out most of the disputes concerning its neutrality.
I put them in chronological in appearance in the intro. While Dharmapala was indeed a pioneer, Ambedkar is the one who has had the most influence, and coutinues to do so to this day. He is easily the more famous and notable of them therefore skipping him or passing over reference to can be described as incredelous.-- Tigeroo 15:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Qasim was not like Ghazni, his Buddhists were not just the Samani's of Nerun, as the quote you use implies. Please read up some on him and visit the sources and the context of why he got his support. He did demolish a handful of stupas in select captured town, but even more important was his adoption of the more liberal Hanafi school of thought and the way he initiated policies such as inclusion of Shramanis and Brahmins into the administration, contractually accepting their places of worship for upkeep, maintenance. Also important is the rate of conversion and the sector that conversion came from. When he placed the jizya on them what did that mean? What was the nature of it?
It is out of the BBC News article you cite for your evanligize quote. However by mixing it with the other quote you are mischarecterzing both sources. Obviously the article also see's no dispute between evangelization and supression by Hindu monarchs. Maybe you should clarify the context it is used in the article rather than pulling up the singular sentence on it's own.
If you feel there are any parts that "I have made up" please use the fact tag so that I know what you are talking about and can then address them specifically by either removing them myself or bringing in the source material to back them up.-- Tigeroo 15:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hope this helps:). Will work on Decline of Buddhism in China as well. Nina Odell 17:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The reasons are listed in indivual edits as well up here in the talk page. Please explain why you are reverting. For even more explanations they are listed at the Mediation page for this article please contribute constructively. Or atleast indicate in your summary what you have done. Reference to a tool is not really sufficient explanation.-- Tigeroo 19:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
. Who is "Jayant Gadkari"??? Any historian or scholar? Does he have any publis? Nonetheless both Gadkari and Karunyakara refs seem to indicate about Shashanka. My point is that the Chalukya thing be explained that it is a war situation when the stupas etc were destroyed and not an act conducted during peacetime.Perhaps we should cite reliable sources like Thapar etc. rather then people we don't know anything about. What is the way to verify academic credentials of Gadkari and Karunyakara? The Hemingway ref [9] does not seem to attest to any specific religious persecution as such. it says Buddhist shrines were ruined and deserted. It could have been due to neglect rather than deliberate demolition. It is certain that the Chalukyas were biased against Buddhists and preferred Vaishnavism, but the ref does not say that the Chalukyas actively destroyed the Buddhist shrines, merely didn't care about them. Without state support, they decayed. Rumpelstiltskin223 22:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag to this article due to a report on the Wikipedia Neutrality Project. Please discuss the POV problems here, and please do not remove the tags until the issues have been resolved, and when you do, please leave a note on the WNP request on it so we know to close the request.
The rationale for the report which was filed is as follows:
“ | There has been some serious POV presented on this article from multiple sides. A serious content dispute has arisen and the NPOV policy needs enforced. May require MedCom/ArbCom intervention. | ” |
On the behalf of the Wikipedia Neutrality Project, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 01:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Please reference my comments above for any help that I can offer.
Phillip, if you're going to remove the info concerning the decline of Buddhism in India and two unsourced statements (1: the role of absorption of Buddhist concepts into Hinduism and 2: causes within Buddhism as it was practiced at the time), then you'd better also remove the mention of the 'white huns' and 'support of the kings'. Take them all out or leave them all in. Or find some sources to what you want to keep in. Greetings, Sacca 15:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Checkuser has identified Phillip Rosenthal as a likely sockpuppet of Freedom skies. JFD 06:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I've deleted the following from the Buddhism article, as I don't think all this detail belongs in such a general article. I put it here for any use it may be to this article.
Buddhism was established in the northern regions of India and Central Asia, and kingdoms with Buddhist rulers such as Menander I and Kaniska. Under the rule of tolerant or even sympathetic Greco-Bactrian and Iranian Achaemenid kings, Buddhism flourished. The rulers of the Kushāna Empire adopted Buddhism, and it continued to thrive in the region under the rule of the Turk-Shāhīs.
Buddhists were briefly persecuted under the Zoroastrian priest-king Kirder. Syncretism between Zoroastrianism and Buddhism had resulted in the rise of a 'Buddha-Mazda' divinity, which Kirder treated as heresy. [6]
The Hinayana traditions first spread among the Turkic tribes before combining with the Mahayana forms during the 2nd and 3rd centuries BCE to cover modern-day Pakistan, Kashmir, Afghanistan, eastern and coastal Iran, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan. These were the ancient states of Gandhara, Bactria, Parthia and Sogdia from where it spread to China. Among the first of these Turkic tribes to adopt Buddhism was the Turki- Shahi who adopted Buddhism as early as the 3rd century BCE. It was not, however, the exclusive faith of this region. There were also Zoroastrians, Hindus, Nestorian Christians, Jews, Manichaeans, and followers of shamanism, Tengrism, and other indigenous, nonorganized systems of belief.
From the 4th Century CE on, Hindu dynasties had achieved preeminence elsewhere in India. Even in regions of Buddhist predominance, such as the northwest ( Pañjāb) and the lower Gangetic plain ( Uttar Pradesh and Bengal), the Indian caste system was found. In political contests between Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms, Buddhist rulers were gradually replaced by Hindu ones. By the 4th to 5th century Buddhism was already in decline in northern India, even though it was achieving multiple successes in Central Asia and along the Silk Road as far as China.
The Buddhist states of Central Asia were weakened in the 6th century following the invasion of the White Huns and Buddhism suffered as recorded by Xuanzang. Later Buddhist regions in Central Asia came either under the sway of the Persian Sāsānids or Tibet. When the Muslim Arabs overthrew the Sāssānids they encountered Buddhists in the eastern provinces of the Persian Empire. They called them by the Persian name of butparast, literally meaning "buddha-worshipper", although the term has come to be used generally for any religion in which cult images play a role. Several high officials of the Abbāsid Caliphate, notably the Barmakids, were descended from these East Iranian Buddhists.
When Muhammad bin Qāsim led the invasion of Sindh at the mouth of the Indus river, he was aided by some Buddhists in his campaign against their Hindu overlord, Rājā Dahir. Relations with later Iranian rulers such as the Saffarids and Samanids were more difficult; Buddhist monasteries and stūpas were not exempt from looting under Arab rule. [7]
After the disintegration of the Abbāsid Caliphate, the Muslim Turks rose to prominence among the Persian emirates that emerged in Central Asia and Afghanistan. In the 10th century CE, one of them, Mahmūd of Ghaznī, defeated the Hindō-Shāhīs and finally brought the region firmly under Muslim rule through Afghanistan and the Pañjāb. He demolished monasteries alongside temples during his raid across north-western India but left those within his domains and Afghanistan alone and al-Biruni recorded the Buddha as a prophet "burxan", the Mongolian word for a Buddha.
The originally pagan Turkic tribes who lived in western Central Asia converted to Islām as they came to be increasingly influenced by Persian culture. As the Turkic tribes of Central Asia battled for control of land, similarly an ideological battle waged within them as Sufis, faced with an increasing hostile environment in Arabia, moved to Transoxania and found fertile ground here for converts among the Buddhist and non-Buddhist Turkic tribes alike. Buddhism persisted, together with Christianity, Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism, and shamanism in areas to the east (modern Xinjiang) for several centuries, which did not become overwhelmingly Muslim until the 15th century CE; however, under the two-pronged onslaught Buddhism waned and over time Central Asia gradually became predominantly Muslim.
In 1215 Genghis Khan conquered Afghanistan and his horde devastated the local population indiscriminately; in 1227 after his death his conquest was divided and Chagatai established the Chagatai Khanate while Hulegu established the Il Khanate where Buddhism was the state religion across Muslim lands. In the Chagatai Khanate the Buddhist Turkic tribes slowly converted to Islam, including the occasional Khan. [8] When Tarmashirin came to power he made Islam the official religion of the region in 1326. In the Il Khanate, Hulegu and his successors Abaqa and Arghun also established Buddhism as the state religion but were hostile to the Muslims. Many mosques were destroyed and numerous stupas built; however, when Ghazan came to power in 1295 and converted he reverted the state religion to Islam and the climate became hostile towards Buddhism. Today no stupas built by the earlier Mongol Khans survive, and after Ghazan's reign little mention of Buddhism can be found in Afghanistan and Central Asia. [9]
Buddhists retained power in parts of northern India, in Kaśmīr and especially in Bengal, where the Buddhist Pāla kings ruled from the 8th–12th centuries CE. These last Buddhist strongholds played an important role in the evolution of the Vajrayāna and the transmission of that form of Buddhism to Tibet before they collapsed under assault from the Hindu Sena dynasty.
Elsewhere in India, Buddhism suffered from pressure by Hindu dynasties, such as the increasingly powerful Rajputs, as well as competition from a Hinduism that had gained ideological coherence and emotional vigor from such movements as Vedānta philosophy and Bhakti devotionalism. One symptom of increased Hindu confidence with regard to Buddhism was the identification of the Buddha as an avatāra of the Hindu god Vishnu – an identification which contradicted basic Buddhist understandings and the Buddha's own unequivocal words about the nature of a Buddha and of nirvāna.
In 1193, only a few decades after the fall of the Pāla kingdom, Muhammad Khiljī destroyed Nālandā, the great Buddhist university. Khiljī was one of the generals of Qutbuddīn Aybak, a subject of the Afghan Ghurids but soon to become the monarch of a Muslim sultanate at Delhi. Khiljī's march across northern India caused a precipitous decline in the fortunes of Indian Buddhism, as he destroyed Buddhist walled monasteries fortified by the Sena kings (which he thought were cities), killed the monks and burned their libraries. At about the same time, the Buddhist king of Maldives, a country that had been trading with Bengal, converted to Islam and ordered all his subjects to do likewise.
After the Mongol invasions of Islamic lands across Central Asia, many Sufis also found themselves fleeing towards the newly established Islamic lands in India around the environs of Bengal. Here their influence, caste attitudes towards Buddhists, previous familiarity with Buddhism, lack of Buddhist political power or social structure along with Hinduism's revival movements such as Advaita and the rise of the syncretic bhakti movement, all contributed to a significant realignment of beliefs relegating Buddhism in India to the peripheries.
By the 13th century CE, Buddhism had become a marginal religion in central India; without a monastic infrastructure, Buddhism could not easily maintain its identity, and many Buddhists, especially in Bengal, were converted to Islām, Hinduism, or left for the Himalayan foothills. In Kaśmīr Buddhism remained a significant religion down to the early 15th century, when it was displaced by Islām and Hinduism, except among the Tibetan peoples of Ladakh.
Elements of Buddhism have remained within India to the current day: the Bauls of Bengal have a syncretic set of practices with strong emphasis on many Buddhist concepts. Other areas of India have never parted from Buddhism, including Ladakh and other Himalayan regions with a primarily Tibetan population. Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim are the other Indian states where Buddhism is practiced in great numbers. The Newars of Nepal also retain a form of Buddhism that differs from the Buddhism of Tibet. Furthermore, much of Buddhist philosophy was eventually absorbed into Hinduism.
Peter jackson 13:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
See the following link for the word appearing in a dictionary. Not to mention that it is a word used in numerous scholarly works which define it as a particular version of hinduism that existed alongside Buddhism in the early part of the first millennium, see discussions above on the subject.-- Tigeroo 17:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Is a primary source. It's WP:OR to quote it as is "IndoHistorians analysis" on it. The excessive focus to it is also results in undue weight age being given to both the Chachnama as well as Qasim in the context of the article.-- Tigeroo 11:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This is a potentially contentious topic, and could turn into a slanging match among various forms of religious fundamentalism in India today. Please take care with the 'facts' being presented in these pages; as religious bigots of various hues are known to be active on the Net, insulting and blaming each other's religion.
^ Agreed, there seem to be many factually 'anti' correct edits since I last saw this page, I would loathe to get into an edit war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.69.128.111 ( talk) 11:25, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, this is page is a glory. While I understand the political climate and refrain from any kind of incitation in the main page. Please, remember that we exist. Love from Bangladesh. Whoever wants truth would find it and find peace.And whoever wants to run away from it would try to find social acceptance, but they would always continue to see strife and eternal turmoil. It wasn't the reality that was in turmoil, but their own eternal selves. How else would you define peace other than the ability to see order, where others see chaos? Rmraihan ( talk) 08:26, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
This article puts the decline primarily down to two sources; violent Hindu repression and violent Muslim repression. The collapse of Buddhism is in fact due to socioeconomic changes. Buddhism required strong central authorities to collect and channel economic surplus to monasteries. As Brahmins took increasing control over the economic structure of India in expanding the scope of the caste system, power became localized and it was impossible for strong states to form. Buddhism withered inversely with this process. I am added this material, found in The Sociology of Philosophies, by Randall Collins, published by Harvard University Press. Mitsube ( talk) 01:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed those two sentences for a couple of reasons, none of them being because they are inaccurate:
Hope this helps explain it. If you agree with the above we can remove them as well.-- Tigeroo ( talk) 08:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The genocide is mentioned in one whopping sentence, surely it deserves greater recognition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.195.150.25 ( talk) 09:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
This article needs to also consider the state of Buddhism in modern India. I have checked the other articles such as History of Buddhism in India, and they do not seem to have treated this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.2.101 ( talk) 17:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I would like to raise my concerns over the reference material used in this article. Writer seldomnly mentiones any Indian sources to outline the causes of decline of Buddhism. Here and there, writer used the Indian reference from B. R. Ambedkar who was severely biased against structure of the Sanatan Dharm. Not sure if this article sheds any insights on causes of decline. Those who point fingures at Brahmins, should know that, Theravada and Vajrayaan branches were established by Brahmins.
Richard Gombrich, Peter Harvey and Randall Collins were frequently used - some of the points that's been excerpted from their work... for instance, "While Shankara is given credit for the defeat of Buddhism in Hindu literature, he was in fact active after Buddhism had faded from prominence in some areas. In particular, he was not a contemporary of the great Indian Buddhist philosopher, Dharmakirti. When Shankara came north to the intellectual centers there, he borrowed many of the ideas that had been formulated by Buddhist philosophers of the past.[55]" are absolutely their own opinion.
By looking at the Adi Shankar's work, Buddhist idea's were predominantly neglected in his approach.
Do not know what message writer wants to convey in this article.- Saarleya 141.160.26.251 ( talk) 06:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Almost all the works relating to Decline of Buddhism declare unanimously that Sri Sankara was the one who did it. The wikipedia itself has references to refute this. Buddhism was decaying much before Sankara's time due to reasons such as 1. too much dependance on ascetism 2. Tantric interference in Buddhistic thought 3. Lack of enthusiasm of rulers in Buddhism.
According to the current version of history dismantling of Buddhism began in full force in Tamilnadu which was begun by Appar in the fifth century, i.e before Sri Sankara. Appar and Sambandar's ground work almost pushed Bouddha and Jaina sects to the fringe of the society eventually leading to their decline.
Given this all references such as " Buddha's embrace of Buddhism was fatal" are without any ground whatsoever. It is also equally unclear why Sankara will embrace the thoughts of a dying sect.
The only reasonable explanation may be that " Sankara learned Buddhism to negate its philosophy." I think the quoting of many scholars in bits and pieces as confirmed opinion is misleading. Not a single Sankaracharya is quoted nor any Smartha or Advaita practitioner quoted in this subject. The whole article has to be deleted immediately.
The sentence "By that time, Buddhism had become especially vulnerable to hostile rulers because it lacked strong roots in society as most of its adherents were ascetic communities." is sourced to....Max Weber: an intellectual portrait By Reinhard Bendix??? Seems like a source which is not on the topic of the article. — goethean 18:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
That is not what Taranath mentions. There is no support whatsoever of Buddhist persecution by the Senas, although it is widely mentioned in textbooks in West Bengal and Bangladesh.
For continuation of Buddhism during Sena period see
Malaiya ( talk) 03:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
How can you use the term Hinduism since it is a western invention? 'Hindu' is not even an Indian term, but of Persian origin - Hindustani! This shows how problematic Wikipedia is! You do not spread knowledge, but common misconceptions! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.10.2.149 ( talk) 22:11, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
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Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#POV pushing
Could you please tell me how I'm POV pushing? Chittagong is not located in India, it's in Bangladesh so how is that POV pushing? The incorrect information was located in the section, "Survival of Buddhism in India". Chittagong and the people of Chittagong people are not part of India or Indian, I was only removing incorrect information so I reverted your edit. ( 121.219.51.186 ( talk) 02:49, 13 February 2017 (UTC))
@ 101.160.163.49:, This source is non- WP:RS and suggests possible WP:COI, because the article declares at the end that "The writer is a grand-niece of the Anagarika". Do you have a peer reviewed scholarly source? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 10:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
ok — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.121.76.246 ( talk) 14:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Capitals00: I suppose that the first part of the following is a WP:COPYVIOLATION?
Conversion from Buddhism to Hinduism is a stock story in Buddhist and Hindu sources. Taranatha's History of Buddhism in India records one such example under Muslim invasions, "There is no doubt that many siddhas and sadhakas lived at this period. But since the karma of the people in general was unalterable, all these could not be prevented. At that most of the yogi followers of Gauraksa were fools and, driven by greed of money and honour offered by the tirthika kings, became followers of Isvara ( Shiva). They used to say, 'We are not opposed even to the Turuksas (Turks).' Only a few of them belonging to the Natesvari-varga remained insiders (Buddhists)." [10]
References
The source, Elverskog, writes:
The shift away from Buddhism toward Hinduism is in fact a stock story in both Buddhist and Hindu sources. One such example is found in the Tibetan historian Taranatha's early seventeenth-century History of Buddhism in India:
Actually, I find the quote quite odd. It was at the wrong place, in a section on conversion to Hinduism in the post-Gupta era; if it is to be used, it should be in the section on the Muslim invasions. And the preceding alinea is actually more interesting; it describes how tantric Buddhism became more and more obscure, leading to a growing appeal of Hindu devotionalism for "the Indian masses." I've added that piece of information. On a personal note, I can understand that Bhakti is more appealing than cryptic Tantrism. Tantric texts are hard to follow, while devotion is intuitively appealing, and a concrete and practical way to embody and practice your religion.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!
06:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
But... checking Elverskog, regarding the "increasingly esoteric nature of tantric Buddhism," it turns out that he is quoting David Gordon White, (2012), The Alchemical Body: Siddha Traditions in Medieval India, p.7, who is writing about Hindu tantrism... According to White, only the Nath Siddhas remained attractive, because they were concerned with the attainment of wordly power, not with abstract metaphysics.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!
06:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: Actually My Lord was correct with his removal. See this the IP introduced same content that has been already explained here. He in fact copied it from Buddhism and Hinduism without attribution. Basically, Competition from Hinduism and Jainism is same as Loss of patronage and donations. Capitals00 ( talk) 18:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
This article already has a subsection that illustrates the persecution of Budddhists by Islamic Dynasties. Why not create another one, detailing the persection of Buddhists by Hindu dynasties ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodhiupasaka ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)