This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Decline and fall of Pedro II of Brazil article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Decline and fall of Pedro II of Brazil was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on November 15, 2013, November 15, 2014, November 15, 2016, November 15, 2017, and November 15, 2021. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There a few points in the military deterioration section that I'd like you to make a few changes:
That's it! I hope someone who never read about the subject could be capable of understaning it. Neither the emperor nor the politicians were capable of perceiving that things were changing. From inside a kind of virus was undermining from the foundation to the top of the military. Insubordinate military became more and more audacious while the politicians refused to see it as a true issue believing that they were isolated problems. An old emperor who did not care to rule anymore, a weak and careless heir who did not care for her own future reign and politicians that were too busy focusing on the slavery or anti-slavery campaging were too late to notice that the military had became a threat for democracy. The young cadets that learned from Benjamin Constant the positivism ideals of a republican dictatorship were the same who later as generals would lauch the 1930 coup who would make Getúlio Vargas a dictator for 15 years. And the cadets of 1930 who followed their generals would later be the generals who would lauch the 1964 coup that would create a dictatorship that would last for 21 years. It is all connected, as you can see. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write about the history of Brazil as a republic. But if you are curious, it was Ernesto Geisel, son of German immigrants and fourth president of the 1964 military dictatorship who ended military anarchy in Brazil.But that is going to be the work of someone else to write about it! Regards, -- Lecen ( talk) 19:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether the amounts given by Soder are in 1880s money or in today's reais for the growth in Brazil's international trade and national revenue? This is in the first part of the "Decline" subsection. • Astynax talk 16:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is not neutral; it frequently editorializing about Pedro II's character and describes him in exclusively positive terms. It describes him as "a monarch who grew tired of his crown" and says he was "beloved by the Brazilian people"; he was "a man grown world-weary with age", and so on. The section titles are hardly encyclopedic: "A tired emperor" and "The monarchy's fate: heirless" are overly dramatic. Also, there is no basis for including the claim "through action and inaction, consciously and unconsciously, he had been sabotaging both the monarchy and the prospects of his daughter's future reign for nearly a decade." Overall, it focuses on Pedro II's psychology as much as the actual rebellion, and it venerates him to an almost propagandistic degree.
It "had an economy that was rapidly developing in 1880s".
To give an idea of the economic potential of the country during the Empire, if "it had been able to sustain the level of productivity achieved in 1780 and managed to increase exports at a pace equal to that verified in the second half of 19th century, its per capita income in 1850 would be comparable to the average per capita income of the Western European nations"
The "countryside echoed with the clang of iron track being laid as railroads were constructed at the most furious pace of the nineteenth century; indeed, building in the 1880s was the second greatest in absolute terms in Brazil's entire history. Only eight countries in the entire world laid more track in the decade than Brazil."
I have reworded the two section titles you have described as dramatic. I removed "a monarch who grew tired of his crown" since it seems inappropriate for the infobox, but there are no issues with the statements "beloved by the Brazilian people" and "a man grown world-weary with age." ("Beginning in late 1880, letters from Pedro II to the Countess of Barral reveal a man grown world-weary with age and having an increasingly alienated and pessimistic outlook."). Put into context, this statement doesn't seem out-of-the-ordinary or exclusively positive. And why would the statement "beloved by the Brazilian people" be a problem if it is reliably sourced?
It also seems that the article regards him in a positive light because that is how historians and sources have evaluated him as — a great monarch. "Through action and inaction, consciously and unconsciously, he had been sabotaging both the monarchy and the prospects of his daughter's future reign for nearly a decade," is a statement immediately supported by a historian's remark and fits what the article is trying to convey. This also brings me to your claim that he is regarded in "exclusively positive terms"; the article seems to put blame on Pedro II for the fall of the monarchy. It is even quoted in a source in the article: "The 'Emperor's indifference towards the fate of the regime was also one of the main factors in the fall of the Monarchy.'" This would have been excluded had this article been created to a "propagandistic degree," along with all the other mentions of Pedro's lackluster attempts at saving and contributing to the downfall of the monarchy.
Finally, you say "it focuses on Pedro II's psychology as much as the actual rebellion." Of course, it does! I clicked here wanting to read about Pedro II's decline, not the Empire of Brazil's sudden disestablishment. The article places equal emphasis on Pedro's psychology, personal thoughts, and life as it does to the factors which contributed to the military coup. If anything, it places more emphasis on the latter at some points. If I wanted to read on the "actual rebellion," I would look up the Proclamation of the Republic. I clicked here in search of Pedro's decline and Pedro's life in this time period, and the article explains both well. For these reasons, I strongly oppose this reassessment and will notify WikiProjects and any significant contributor(s) for them to weigh in. FredModulars ( talk) 04:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Decline and fall of Pedro II of Brazil article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Decline and fall of Pedro II of Brazil was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on November 15, 2013, November 15, 2014, November 15, 2016, November 15, 2017, and November 15, 2021. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There a few points in the military deterioration section that I'd like you to make a few changes:
That's it! I hope someone who never read about the subject could be capable of understaning it. Neither the emperor nor the politicians were capable of perceiving that things were changing. From inside a kind of virus was undermining from the foundation to the top of the military. Insubordinate military became more and more audacious while the politicians refused to see it as a true issue believing that they were isolated problems. An old emperor who did not care to rule anymore, a weak and careless heir who did not care for her own future reign and politicians that were too busy focusing on the slavery or anti-slavery campaging were too late to notice that the military had became a threat for democracy. The young cadets that learned from Benjamin Constant the positivism ideals of a republican dictatorship were the same who later as generals would lauch the 1930 coup who would make Getúlio Vargas a dictator for 15 years. And the cadets of 1930 who followed their generals would later be the generals who would lauch the 1964 coup that would create a dictatorship that would last for 21 years. It is all connected, as you can see. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write about the history of Brazil as a republic. But if you are curious, it was Ernesto Geisel, son of German immigrants and fourth president of the 1964 military dictatorship who ended military anarchy in Brazil.But that is going to be the work of someone else to write about it! Regards, -- Lecen ( talk) 19:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether the amounts given by Soder are in 1880s money or in today's reais for the growth in Brazil's international trade and national revenue? This is in the first part of the "Decline" subsection. • Astynax talk 16:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is not neutral; it frequently editorializing about Pedro II's character and describes him in exclusively positive terms. It describes him as "a monarch who grew tired of his crown" and says he was "beloved by the Brazilian people"; he was "a man grown world-weary with age", and so on. The section titles are hardly encyclopedic: "A tired emperor" and "The monarchy's fate: heirless" are overly dramatic. Also, there is no basis for including the claim "through action and inaction, consciously and unconsciously, he had been sabotaging both the monarchy and the prospects of his daughter's future reign for nearly a decade." Overall, it focuses on Pedro II's psychology as much as the actual rebellion, and it venerates him to an almost propagandistic degree.
It "had an economy that was rapidly developing in 1880s".
To give an idea of the economic potential of the country during the Empire, if "it had been able to sustain the level of productivity achieved in 1780 and managed to increase exports at a pace equal to that verified in the second half of 19th century, its per capita income in 1850 would be comparable to the average per capita income of the Western European nations"
The "countryside echoed with the clang of iron track being laid as railroads were constructed at the most furious pace of the nineteenth century; indeed, building in the 1880s was the second greatest in absolute terms in Brazil's entire history. Only eight countries in the entire world laid more track in the decade than Brazil."
I have reworded the two section titles you have described as dramatic. I removed "a monarch who grew tired of his crown" since it seems inappropriate for the infobox, but there are no issues with the statements "beloved by the Brazilian people" and "a man grown world-weary with age." ("Beginning in late 1880, letters from Pedro II to the Countess of Barral reveal a man grown world-weary with age and having an increasingly alienated and pessimistic outlook."). Put into context, this statement doesn't seem out-of-the-ordinary or exclusively positive. And why would the statement "beloved by the Brazilian people" be a problem if it is reliably sourced?
It also seems that the article regards him in a positive light because that is how historians and sources have evaluated him as — a great monarch. "Through action and inaction, consciously and unconsciously, he had been sabotaging both the monarchy and the prospects of his daughter's future reign for nearly a decade," is a statement immediately supported by a historian's remark and fits what the article is trying to convey. This also brings me to your claim that he is regarded in "exclusively positive terms"; the article seems to put blame on Pedro II for the fall of the monarchy. It is even quoted in a source in the article: "The 'Emperor's indifference towards the fate of the regime was also one of the main factors in the fall of the Monarchy.'" This would have been excluded had this article been created to a "propagandistic degree," along with all the other mentions of Pedro's lackluster attempts at saving and contributing to the downfall of the monarchy.
Finally, you say "it focuses on Pedro II's psychology as much as the actual rebellion." Of course, it does! I clicked here wanting to read about Pedro II's decline, not the Empire of Brazil's sudden disestablishment. The article places equal emphasis on Pedro's psychology, personal thoughts, and life as it does to the factors which contributed to the military coup. If anything, it places more emphasis on the latter at some points. If I wanted to read on the "actual rebellion," I would look up the Proclamation of the Republic. I clicked here in search of Pedro's decline and Pedro's life in this time period, and the article explains both well. For these reasons, I strongly oppose this reassessment and will notify WikiProjects and any significant contributor(s) for them to weigh in. FredModulars ( talk) 04:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)