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Article flagged for weasel words and a close connection with subject. Please help? Dberke220 ( talk) 00:50, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Your preferred version | Copyedited and wikified version |
---|---|
Deborah Berke & Partners designs a mix of residential, commercial, and "creative institutional" projects as well as distinctive hotels. Notable projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the award-winning 21c Museum Hotel. The firm is also working on the design of a community arts center in Manhattan that is home to Mabou Mines, and Performance Space 122; László Z. Bitó '60 Conservatory Building at Bard College; an addition and renovation to the Rockefeller University Arts Center at SUNY Fredonia and a new residence hall at Dickinson College. The firm has long been well known for its residential projects and has designed houses in the Hamptons, Westchester County, Connecticut, New York City, and the Caribbean. | Deborah Berke & Partners Architects designs a mix of hotels, residential, commercial, and "creative institutional" projects. The firm is also working on the design of a community arts center in Manhattan that is home to Mabou Mines and Performance Space 122; László Z. Bitó '60 Conservatory Building at Bard College; an addition and renovation to the Rockefeller University Arts Center at SUNY Fredonia and a new residence hall at Dickinson College. The firm has designed houses in the Hamptons, Westchester County, Connecticut, New York City, and the Caribbean. |
The practice has received numerous awards for its work, including the AIA Kentucky Honor Award for the 21c Museum Hotel Louisville, 2011. The 21c Museum Hotel in Louisville also garnered the AIANYS Excellence for Historic Preservation/Adaptive Reuse in 2007, and the Best of Year Award for Hospitality Design, Interior Design Magazine, in 2006. Deborah Berke & Partners won an AIA NYS Award of Merit for the Marianne Boesky Gallery in 2009. In 2009 the Irwin Union Bank was awarded a Citation for Design by AIA NYS and an AIA NY Merit Award for Architecture. In 2007, The James Hotel Chicago earned a Citation for Interiors from the AIA NYS and the firm was awarded The Hospitality Design Award for Creative Achievement, Hotel Luxury, by Hospitality Design. The firm received AIANY Design awards for Box Studios (2004), the Baron Loft (2001), and the Howell Loft(1999). In 2012, 48 Bond Street received an Award of Excellence from the Society of American Registered Architects NY Council. | The practice has received numerous awards for its work. The 21c Museum Hotel (2006) in Louisville, Kentucky won the American Institute of Architects Kentucky Honor Award in 2011, the AIA NYS Excellence for Historic Preservation/Adaptive Reuse in 2007, and the Best of Year Award for Hospitality Design, Interior Design Magazine, in 2006. Deborah Berke & Partners Architects won an AIA NYS Award of Merit for the Marianne Boesky Gallery in 2009. In 2009 the Irwin Union Bank was awarded a Citation for Design by AIA NYS and an AIA NY Merit Award for Architecture. In 2007, The James Hotel Chicago earned a Citation for Interiors from the AIA NYS and the firm was awarded The Hospitality Design Award for Creative Achievement, Hotel Luxury, by Hospitality Design. The firm received AIA NY Design awards for Box Studios (2004), the Baron Loft (2001), and the Howell Loft (1999). In 2012, 48 Bond Street received an Award of Excellence from the Society of American Registered Architects NY Council. |
Deborah Berke & Partners was a National Design Awards Finalist for Interior Design in 2008. | Deborah Berke & Partners Architects was a National Design Awards finalist for Interior Design in 2008. Future projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the 21c Museum Hotel. |
{{
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template for all the works in that section versus plain text.{{
linkrot}}
.{{
Official website}}
template.Thank you for your editorial review and suggested changes of the article, "Deborah Berke & Partners Architects". I apologize for my previous misunderstandings, my edits were made in good faith. WP:SCOIC I am an employee of Deborah Berke & Partners Architects. Please see my user page for more information [[REDIRECT] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Meredith_at_DBA] To avoid further COI issues, I have retired the DBerke220 account and created a more transparent account: Meredith at DBA User talk:Meredith at DBA.
Proposed Changes: I propose to keep the sentence: "Notable projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the award-winning 21c Museum Hotel" in the first paragraph because these are current, ongoing projects (not "future projects" as stated at the end of the revised article). The word "also" does not make sense without this sentence preceding it in this paragraph.
Here are some citations:
http://www.21cmuseumhotels.com/cincinnati http://www.21cmuseumhotels.com/bentonville
The other proposed change, based on the above documented information, is to remove this sentence from the last paragraph: "Future projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the 21c Museum Hotel".
Thank you very much for your time and your help.
[[REDIRECT] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Deborah_Berke_%26_Partners] Meredith at DBA ( talk) 16:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Dori, Thank you again for moving your comments inline. Last night, I sent some suggested edits to see if we can omit the inline comments.
To explain the word "current" in the Current Projects paragraph: when designing a new space, whether it will be new construction or a renovation of existing space, it can take years from the time a client signs a contract until the building is built and open. During that time, the architect conducts primary and secondary research to understand exactly what the client needs and desires for the space. This includes understanding the number and anticipated use of rooms needed, overall goals for the building or campus, and users' needs and requirements. Primary research includes conducting visioning sessions with the client and stakeholders to gain that understanding. Secondary research includes reading any reports, such as a masterplan, that may have been created about the building or campus, as well as reviewing any past architectural work that has been done to understand the building's history (ex., if there are designations such as National Historic Landmark ) and the structural integrity of an existing building. The architect then designs proposed sections of the building for the client to comment on, with the goal of obtaining approval for construction. The final phase is construction, when the architect remains on the project to ensure that the approved architectural drawings are implemented perfectly.
Therefore, the projects listed as "current" are in progress, and have an estimated year of completion when the building is anticipated to be open for public use, as follows:
Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 14:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to keep working toward a goal of having no comments. I understand I can no longer edit this article. Perhaps I can suggest ways of editing to omit the comments? For instance: Can you please let me know what kind of proof is needed for Berke's 2 partners and principals? A link or reference to the firm's website would show those 4 people, but my understanding is that is not acceptable to the Wikipedia community. By the way, I noticed that the partners' names are appearing in the photo credits for Temple Tyler.
Perhaps we should remove the phrase "creative institutional" (leaving only "institutional") - it is a direct quote from a magazine but it can come out if that would improve the sentence and let us be rid of the "buzzword" comment.
As for a third party source needed regarding the firm has won "numerous awards", the rest of the paragraph shows those sources. However, if asserting that the firm has won awards is not appropriate, perhaps remove that sentence and begin the paragraph with the 2nd sentence: "The 21c Museum Hotel...".
Current projects are projects happening right now, as we speak, in 2012. They will be complete over the next 2-3 years respectively. I can provide those dates tomorrow morning if that would be useful?
Thank you again. I am truly grateful to you for your help. 67.85.225.12 ( talk) 00:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
{{
clarify}}
Independent third-party sources are what's needed here. If you have them, please post them! The problem is that everything in the lead is supposed to be supported in the body of the article, and there's nothing in the body about the makeup of the firm.
{{
buzz}}
You say above that "creative institutional" is a direct quote from a magazine. A reference to the magazine would be sufficient, if we knew what the source was. It can't be Interior Design, as that article has it in quotes, showing that it's been copied from elsewhere.
{{
third-party-inline|reason=All of the references in this section are to primary sources}}
That is, it's not in reference to the one sentence, but to the section overall (normally I would have used a {{
primary sources|section}}
tag). Saying that the firm has won awards is absolutely appropriate; the issue is that the section lacks references independent of the award-givers.
{{
when}}
I understand what "current" means; unfortunately, "current" doesn't work well in an encyclopedia (see WP:As of). Even if it began with "As of May 2012," the "Current projects" section will (by definition) become out of date in the future as each project ends.
I'm not sure what you meant by this. If you're referring to the infobox, the names show as partners under the Practice information section. It's not a photo credit.
Hi Dori, I keep checking my Talk page and the Teahouse and somehow did not see any of your comments until just now. They seem to get buried in the text and I do not receive any email notifications when comments are made. Anyway, thank you for your continued work on this article.
I'm sorry you removed the partners' names from the picture box on the right -- it was so nice to see them there. I was merely trying to show you an independent source (WP) of the information. I am sorry it was not clear. I understand the "clarify" comment may be about the difference or definition of partner and principal (this clarification came from the Teahouse), so I will work on that.
The issue with the awards section is that those primary sources are the only sources that exist and having researched Wikipedia's rules for Primary Sources, I believe they are being used properly. The Policy on using primary sources is as follows: "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source."
This is the response I got in the Teahouse to this question:
"Meredith - you seem to have been working hard - so I checked every reference to see just how hard you had been working. Fair's fair. It looks as if all is in order, present and correct....Meredith, I've had a look too and the way in which you are using those sources doesn't worry me at all - they are simply factual and you are not trying to interpret them in any way. "
I wish you would remove the flag in the article about misuse of primary sources. Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 18:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Due to the perception of a COI, I believe it would be best if another editor could make these changes. Thank you.
{{Request edit}}
Meredith at DBA ( talk) 13:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
{{
when}}
tag on that sentence, not to the sentence itself.As I wrote above, the tag itself contains a message saying that it's not about the sentence, but rather, about the section—so simply deleting the sentence wouldn't improve the section at all.
I tried it your way, and the end result was this:
I believe you'll agree with me that that is a monstrosity.The 21c Museum Hotel (2006) in Louisville, Kentucky won the American Institute of Architects Kentucky Honor Award in 2011, [1] non-primary source needed the AIA NYS Excellence for Historic Preservation/Adaptive Reuse in 2007, [2] non-primary source needed and the Best of Year Award for Hospitality Design, Interior Design Magazine, in 2006. [3] non-primary source needed Deborah Berke & Partners Architects won an AIA NYS Award of Merit for the Marianne Boesky Gallery in 2009. [4] non-primary source needed In 2009 the Irwin Union Bank was awarded a Citation for Design by AIA NYS [2] non-primary source needed and an AIA NY Merit Award for Architecture. [5] non-primary source needed In 2007, the James Hotel Chicago earned a Citation for Interiors from the AIA NYS [4] non-primary source needed and the firm was awarded the Hospitality Design Award for Creative Achievement, Hotel Luxury, by Hospitality Design. citation needed The firm received AIA NY Design awards for Box Studios (2004), [6] non-primary source needed the Baron Loft (2001), [7] non-primary source needed and the Howell Loft (1999). citation needed In 2012, 48 Bond Street received an Award of Excellence from the Society of American Registered Architects NY Council. [8] non-primary source needed
So, what's left? One subtle inline tag doesn't work for you, and multiple in-your-face inline tags doesn't work for anyone. The only thing I can think to fall back on is the WP-standard {{
primary sources|section}}
tag I referred to above, so I've done that.
and (about the "photo credit"),Independent third-party sources are what's needed here. If you have them, please post them! The problem is that everything in the lead is supposed to be supported in the body of the article, and there's nothing in the body about the makeup of the firm.
About all I can guess now is that you don't like the infobox listing the partners as partners, so I've removed them. I think it makes the article worse, personally, and the names could be re-added at any point by any editor, so I don't quite get the point, but I have removed them.I'm not sure what you meant by this. If you're referring to the infobox, the names show as partners under the Practice information section. It's not a photo credit.
I've added theunfortunately, "current" doesn't work well in an encyclopedia (see WP:As of). Even if it began with "As of May 2012," the "Current projects" section will (by definition) become out of date in the future as each project ends.
{{
As of}}
to the section, but that doesn't make it any less of an issue in the long run. If there's something specific that you want, please ask, and we can discuss it.Dori ☾ Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 01:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)Got any other questions? Just ask…
References
The article, Deborah Berke & Partners Architects cites thirteen (13) specific examples of the firm receiving an award. These awards are listed as a statement of fact, without any interpretation or exceptional claim. The Policy on using primary sources is as follows:
Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.
In conducting additional research on Wikipedia, I have found the following articles list awards with only primary references, and in some cases, no references at all:
I believe the awards citations, as currently listed on the Deborah Berke & Partners Architects article, meet the requirements of the Primary Sources for references. Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 17:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The use of the {{ primary sources}} tag is I suggest innappropriate - the references given do nothing except state straight forward information about awards won by the company. There is no attempt to interpret or synthesise anything else from that information. The section could be better presented e.g. bulleted list and efforts to find secondary sources found (although I suspect that even trade journals would report little more than the awaridng bodies do themselves) but the sources given to verify the information presented and are better than no source. NtheP ( talk) 14:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello, In an effort to clarify the firm organization and leadership in the Deborah Berke & Partners Architects article: Deborah Berke & Partners Architects is a New York City-based architecture and interior design firm founded by Deborah Berke and led by Berke, two partners: Maitland Jones and Marc Leff, and two principals: Stephen Brockman and Caroline Whartone. For more information about the partners and principals of the firm, Deborah Berke & Partners Architects, one can look at the leadership bio's on the firm website: http://www.dberke.com/office/profile_pp.htm
In addition, a secondary source of this information is the American Institute of Architects (AIA) NY Chapter Directory: http://aiany.aiany.org/index.php?section=firm-directory&cmpid=3227&filter=type&typid=2037
Thank you
Meredith at DBA ( talk) 18:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear WP Editors, Based on the User Talk feedback to date, I wonder if the paragraph format of the awards section of this article Deborah Berke & Partners Architects is at issue with the primary sources (the article is following Wikipedia Rules for Primary Sources Wikipedia:No original research: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.").
If so, perhaps the paragraph could be restructured as such:
The practice has received numerous awards for its work including:
Thank you Meredith at DBA ( talk) 15:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Please advise what is the best way to solve the primary sources issue with the awards list in this article Deborah Berke & Partners Architects. Only primary sources exist for those facts. If this is not adequate, then perhaps the section needs to be removed. Thank you Meredith at DBA ( talk) 13:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you David. I am always very impressed by your work and advice. Could you consider paring the article of its non-notable awards? Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:09, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Bilby just removed the term numerous from "The practice has received numerous awards for its work." While I understand the thought behind it (numerous is a subjective term, it is not supported with an inline citation, one person may look at numerous differently than another), I don't think it improved the section. The statement "The practice has received awards for its work" just sounds bad. Personally, I believe that numerous does apply, I counted 13. Does anybody have any thoughts on how we can rework the intro to that section, or would anybody be terribly opposed to me restoring the word numerous? Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:38, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
{{ Request edit}}
Based on Nthep and Ryan Vesey's Teahouse comments, I would recommend one of the following actions to clarify the leadership structure of the firm in the first sentence of the article Deborah Berke & Partners Architects.
OR If that is not acceptable, then quoting Nthep talk "On the point of the partners, I can think of two things. One, drop it from the text altogether leaving it as Deborah Berke is the principal partner in the firm (this could be referenced to the firm's own website)."
I think naming the leadership team (Maitland Jones, Marc Leff, Stephen Brockman, Caroline Wharton) in addition to Deborah Berke is the most truthful and factual way to list it.
Meredith at DBA ( talk) 14:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
The names of the partners was never in the first sentence. If this would have helped "clarify" the sentence, it would have been a requested edit. In the comments "Thank you for moving your comments inline; Proposed additional changes", in an ettempt to omit the "clarify" comment, I thought as proof that there are 2 partners and 2 principals, I pointed out the infobox contained their names. That comment was misunderstood and the names were then omitted from the infobox. You can see that thread in the same conversation box, in comments by Dori Smith. I hope this helps. Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 16:53, 21 May 2012 (UTC) " {{ Requested Edit}}Would it be possible to add the partners' and principals' names to this sentence to clarify it? As: "Deborah Berke & Partners Architects is a New York City-based architecture and interior design firm founded by Deborah Berke and led by Berke, two partners, Maitland Jones and Marc Leff, and two principals, Stephen Brockman and Caroline Wharton." Thank you Meredith at DBA ( talk) 20:43, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The source I provided is the AIA American Institute of Architects New York Chapter Directory. Here is a link to the firm listing, which lists the Owners/Partners: Deborah Berke, FAIA, LEED AP; Maitland Jones, AIA, LEED AP; Marc Leff, AIA, LEED AP. Unfortunately this directory does not list the principals: Caroline Wharton and Stephen Brockman. http://aiany.aiany.org/index.php?section=firm-directory&cmpid=3227&filter=type&typid=2037
Here is an independent source for Stephen Brockman, Principal: http://www.irhawards.com/jury/Stephen_Brockman.php Thanks Meredith at DBA ( talk) 13:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Ryan. Thank you very much. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 18:37, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
The further reading section is far too extensive. In the interests of paring it down, I will remove all those that don't have links except for "Filler, Martin (March 2001). "Deborah Berke". House Beautiful." unless someone says otherwise in the next 24 hours. I will then start examining the linked ones. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
{{Requested edit}}
The infobox on the
Deborah Berke & Partners Architects article misattributes the
Tyler School of Art at
Temple University as having been designed by Deborah Berke & Partners Architects. Deborah Berke & Partners Architects provided master planning, programming, site analysis and conceptual design services, but they did not design the new building. The School commissioned architectural services in 2005 and selected Carlos Jimenez in collaboration with H2L2. The facility opened in 2008.
For reliable, independent reference proving this information, please look at the following links: http://www.temple.edu/tyler/newtyler/index.html This article states: "The Future of Tyler will be at the center of a vibrant urban creative community, rich with opportunities for inspiration, exhibition, collaboration and cross-disciplinary connection. The new facility and the new location will help Tyler to compete more strongly for faculty, students, and national recognition against other top ranked schools of art.
Designed by architect Carlos Jimenez of Carlos Jimenez Studio in Houston, in collaboration with the Philadelphia based architecture firm, H2L2, the new building at 12th and Norris Streets offers 40 percent more space than the School’s previous facilities. Read more on Carlos Jimenez in the Temple Times Article, "Architect Selected for Tyler Building" from January 2005."
That article is here: http://www.temple.edu/temple_times/1-27-05/jimenez.html
Also, the website of the architect H2L2: http://www.h2l2.com/architecture_gallery_13.php Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 21:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
{{Requested edit}}
the infobox with the picture on the right side of the article still shows the Tyler School of Art at Temple University. Deborah Berke & Partners Architects did not design this building. thank you.
67.85.225.12 (
talk) 20:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Ryan, it's perfect. Thank you so much. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 16:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
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Article flagged for weasel words and a close connection with subject. Please help? Dberke220 ( talk) 00:50, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Your preferred version | Copyedited and wikified version |
---|---|
Deborah Berke & Partners designs a mix of residential, commercial, and "creative institutional" projects as well as distinctive hotels. Notable projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the award-winning 21c Museum Hotel. The firm is also working on the design of a community arts center in Manhattan that is home to Mabou Mines, and Performance Space 122; László Z. Bitó '60 Conservatory Building at Bard College; an addition and renovation to the Rockefeller University Arts Center at SUNY Fredonia and a new residence hall at Dickinson College. The firm has long been well known for its residential projects and has designed houses in the Hamptons, Westchester County, Connecticut, New York City, and the Caribbean. | Deborah Berke & Partners Architects designs a mix of hotels, residential, commercial, and "creative institutional" projects. The firm is also working on the design of a community arts center in Manhattan that is home to Mabou Mines and Performance Space 122; László Z. Bitó '60 Conservatory Building at Bard College; an addition and renovation to the Rockefeller University Arts Center at SUNY Fredonia and a new residence hall at Dickinson College. The firm has designed houses in the Hamptons, Westchester County, Connecticut, New York City, and the Caribbean. |
The practice has received numerous awards for its work, including the AIA Kentucky Honor Award for the 21c Museum Hotel Louisville, 2011. The 21c Museum Hotel in Louisville also garnered the AIANYS Excellence for Historic Preservation/Adaptive Reuse in 2007, and the Best of Year Award for Hospitality Design, Interior Design Magazine, in 2006. Deborah Berke & Partners won an AIA NYS Award of Merit for the Marianne Boesky Gallery in 2009. In 2009 the Irwin Union Bank was awarded a Citation for Design by AIA NYS and an AIA NY Merit Award for Architecture. In 2007, The James Hotel Chicago earned a Citation for Interiors from the AIA NYS and the firm was awarded The Hospitality Design Award for Creative Achievement, Hotel Luxury, by Hospitality Design. The firm received AIANY Design awards for Box Studios (2004), the Baron Loft (2001), and the Howell Loft(1999). In 2012, 48 Bond Street received an Award of Excellence from the Society of American Registered Architects NY Council. | The practice has received numerous awards for its work. The 21c Museum Hotel (2006) in Louisville, Kentucky won the American Institute of Architects Kentucky Honor Award in 2011, the AIA NYS Excellence for Historic Preservation/Adaptive Reuse in 2007, and the Best of Year Award for Hospitality Design, Interior Design Magazine, in 2006. Deborah Berke & Partners Architects won an AIA NYS Award of Merit for the Marianne Boesky Gallery in 2009. In 2009 the Irwin Union Bank was awarded a Citation for Design by AIA NYS and an AIA NY Merit Award for Architecture. In 2007, The James Hotel Chicago earned a Citation for Interiors from the AIA NYS and the firm was awarded The Hospitality Design Award for Creative Achievement, Hotel Luxury, by Hospitality Design. The firm received AIA NY Design awards for Box Studios (2004), the Baron Loft (2001), and the Howell Loft (1999). In 2012, 48 Bond Street received an Award of Excellence from the Society of American Registered Architects NY Council. |
Deborah Berke & Partners was a National Design Awards Finalist for Interior Design in 2008. | Deborah Berke & Partners Architects was a National Design Awards finalist for Interior Design in 2008. Future projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the 21c Museum Hotel. |
{{
cite journal}}
template for all the works in that section versus plain text.{{
linkrot}}
.{{
Official website}}
template.Thank you for your editorial review and suggested changes of the article, "Deborah Berke & Partners Architects". I apologize for my previous misunderstandings, my edits were made in good faith. WP:SCOIC I am an employee of Deborah Berke & Partners Architects. Please see my user page for more information [[REDIRECT] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Meredith_at_DBA] To avoid further COI issues, I have retired the DBerke220 account and created a more transparent account: Meredith at DBA User talk:Meredith at DBA.
Proposed Changes: I propose to keep the sentence: "Notable projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the award-winning 21c Museum Hotel" in the first paragraph because these are current, ongoing projects (not "future projects" as stated at the end of the revised article). The word "also" does not make sense without this sentence preceding it in this paragraph.
Here are some citations:
http://www.21cmuseumhotels.com/cincinnati http://www.21cmuseumhotels.com/bentonville
The other proposed change, based on the above documented information, is to remove this sentence from the last paragraph: "Future projects include follow-ups in Bentonville, Arkansas, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Lexington, Kentucky to the 21c Museum Hotel".
Thank you very much for your time and your help.
[[REDIRECT] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Deborah_Berke_%26_Partners] Meredith at DBA ( talk) 16:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Dori, Thank you again for moving your comments inline. Last night, I sent some suggested edits to see if we can omit the inline comments.
To explain the word "current" in the Current Projects paragraph: when designing a new space, whether it will be new construction or a renovation of existing space, it can take years from the time a client signs a contract until the building is built and open. During that time, the architect conducts primary and secondary research to understand exactly what the client needs and desires for the space. This includes understanding the number and anticipated use of rooms needed, overall goals for the building or campus, and users' needs and requirements. Primary research includes conducting visioning sessions with the client and stakeholders to gain that understanding. Secondary research includes reading any reports, such as a masterplan, that may have been created about the building or campus, as well as reviewing any past architectural work that has been done to understand the building's history (ex., if there are designations such as National Historic Landmark ) and the structural integrity of an existing building. The architect then designs proposed sections of the building for the client to comment on, with the goal of obtaining approval for construction. The final phase is construction, when the architect remains on the project to ensure that the approved architectural drawings are implemented perfectly.
Therefore, the projects listed as "current" are in progress, and have an estimated year of completion when the building is anticipated to be open for public use, as follows:
Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 14:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to keep working toward a goal of having no comments. I understand I can no longer edit this article. Perhaps I can suggest ways of editing to omit the comments? For instance: Can you please let me know what kind of proof is needed for Berke's 2 partners and principals? A link or reference to the firm's website would show those 4 people, but my understanding is that is not acceptable to the Wikipedia community. By the way, I noticed that the partners' names are appearing in the photo credits for Temple Tyler.
Perhaps we should remove the phrase "creative institutional" (leaving only "institutional") - it is a direct quote from a magazine but it can come out if that would improve the sentence and let us be rid of the "buzzword" comment.
As for a third party source needed regarding the firm has won "numerous awards", the rest of the paragraph shows those sources. However, if asserting that the firm has won awards is not appropriate, perhaps remove that sentence and begin the paragraph with the 2nd sentence: "The 21c Museum Hotel...".
Current projects are projects happening right now, as we speak, in 2012. They will be complete over the next 2-3 years respectively. I can provide those dates tomorrow morning if that would be useful?
Thank you again. I am truly grateful to you for your help. 67.85.225.12 ( talk) 00:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
{{
clarify}}
Independent third-party sources are what's needed here. If you have them, please post them! The problem is that everything in the lead is supposed to be supported in the body of the article, and there's nothing in the body about the makeup of the firm.
{{
buzz}}
You say above that "creative institutional" is a direct quote from a magazine. A reference to the magazine would be sufficient, if we knew what the source was. It can't be Interior Design, as that article has it in quotes, showing that it's been copied from elsewhere.
{{
third-party-inline|reason=All of the references in this section are to primary sources}}
That is, it's not in reference to the one sentence, but to the section overall (normally I would have used a {{
primary sources|section}}
tag). Saying that the firm has won awards is absolutely appropriate; the issue is that the section lacks references independent of the award-givers.
{{
when}}
I understand what "current" means; unfortunately, "current" doesn't work well in an encyclopedia (see WP:As of). Even if it began with "As of May 2012," the "Current projects" section will (by definition) become out of date in the future as each project ends.
I'm not sure what you meant by this. If you're referring to the infobox, the names show as partners under the Practice information section. It's not a photo credit.
Hi Dori, I keep checking my Talk page and the Teahouse and somehow did not see any of your comments until just now. They seem to get buried in the text and I do not receive any email notifications when comments are made. Anyway, thank you for your continued work on this article.
I'm sorry you removed the partners' names from the picture box on the right -- it was so nice to see them there. I was merely trying to show you an independent source (WP) of the information. I am sorry it was not clear. I understand the "clarify" comment may be about the difference or definition of partner and principal (this clarification came from the Teahouse), so I will work on that.
The issue with the awards section is that those primary sources are the only sources that exist and having researched Wikipedia's rules for Primary Sources, I believe they are being used properly. The Policy on using primary sources is as follows: "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source."
This is the response I got in the Teahouse to this question:
"Meredith - you seem to have been working hard - so I checked every reference to see just how hard you had been working. Fair's fair. It looks as if all is in order, present and correct....Meredith, I've had a look too and the way in which you are using those sources doesn't worry me at all - they are simply factual and you are not trying to interpret them in any way. "
I wish you would remove the flag in the article about misuse of primary sources. Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 18:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Due to the perception of a COI, I believe it would be best if another editor could make these changes. Thank you.
{{Request edit}}
Meredith at DBA ( talk) 13:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
{{
when}}
tag on that sentence, not to the sentence itself.As I wrote above, the tag itself contains a message saying that it's not about the sentence, but rather, about the section—so simply deleting the sentence wouldn't improve the section at all.
I tried it your way, and the end result was this:
I believe you'll agree with me that that is a monstrosity.The 21c Museum Hotel (2006) in Louisville, Kentucky won the American Institute of Architects Kentucky Honor Award in 2011, [1] non-primary source needed the AIA NYS Excellence for Historic Preservation/Adaptive Reuse in 2007, [2] non-primary source needed and the Best of Year Award for Hospitality Design, Interior Design Magazine, in 2006. [3] non-primary source needed Deborah Berke & Partners Architects won an AIA NYS Award of Merit for the Marianne Boesky Gallery in 2009. [4] non-primary source needed In 2009 the Irwin Union Bank was awarded a Citation for Design by AIA NYS [2] non-primary source needed and an AIA NY Merit Award for Architecture. [5] non-primary source needed In 2007, the James Hotel Chicago earned a Citation for Interiors from the AIA NYS [4] non-primary source needed and the firm was awarded the Hospitality Design Award for Creative Achievement, Hotel Luxury, by Hospitality Design. citation needed The firm received AIA NY Design awards for Box Studios (2004), [6] non-primary source needed the Baron Loft (2001), [7] non-primary source needed and the Howell Loft (1999). citation needed In 2012, 48 Bond Street received an Award of Excellence from the Society of American Registered Architects NY Council. [8] non-primary source needed
So, what's left? One subtle inline tag doesn't work for you, and multiple in-your-face inline tags doesn't work for anyone. The only thing I can think to fall back on is the WP-standard {{
primary sources|section}}
tag I referred to above, so I've done that.
and (about the "photo credit"),Independent third-party sources are what's needed here. If you have them, please post them! The problem is that everything in the lead is supposed to be supported in the body of the article, and there's nothing in the body about the makeup of the firm.
About all I can guess now is that you don't like the infobox listing the partners as partners, so I've removed them. I think it makes the article worse, personally, and the names could be re-added at any point by any editor, so I don't quite get the point, but I have removed them.I'm not sure what you meant by this. If you're referring to the infobox, the names show as partners under the Practice information section. It's not a photo credit.
I've added theunfortunately, "current" doesn't work well in an encyclopedia (see WP:As of). Even if it began with "As of May 2012," the "Current projects" section will (by definition) become out of date in the future as each project ends.
{{
As of}}
to the section, but that doesn't make it any less of an issue in the long run. If there's something specific that you want, please ask, and we can discuss it.Dori ☾ Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 01:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)Got any other questions? Just ask…
References
The article, Deborah Berke & Partners Architects cites thirteen (13) specific examples of the firm receiving an award. These awards are listed as a statement of fact, without any interpretation or exceptional claim. The Policy on using primary sources is as follows:
Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.
In conducting additional research on Wikipedia, I have found the following articles list awards with only primary references, and in some cases, no references at all:
I believe the awards citations, as currently listed on the Deborah Berke & Partners Architects article, meet the requirements of the Primary Sources for references. Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 17:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The use of the {{ primary sources}} tag is I suggest innappropriate - the references given do nothing except state straight forward information about awards won by the company. There is no attempt to interpret or synthesise anything else from that information. The section could be better presented e.g. bulleted list and efforts to find secondary sources found (although I suspect that even trade journals would report little more than the awaridng bodies do themselves) but the sources given to verify the information presented and are better than no source. NtheP ( talk) 14:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello, In an effort to clarify the firm organization and leadership in the Deborah Berke & Partners Architects article: Deborah Berke & Partners Architects is a New York City-based architecture and interior design firm founded by Deborah Berke and led by Berke, two partners: Maitland Jones and Marc Leff, and two principals: Stephen Brockman and Caroline Whartone. For more information about the partners and principals of the firm, Deborah Berke & Partners Architects, one can look at the leadership bio's on the firm website: http://www.dberke.com/office/profile_pp.htm
In addition, a secondary source of this information is the American Institute of Architects (AIA) NY Chapter Directory: http://aiany.aiany.org/index.php?section=firm-directory&cmpid=3227&filter=type&typid=2037
Thank you
Meredith at DBA ( talk) 18:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear WP Editors, Based on the User Talk feedback to date, I wonder if the paragraph format of the awards section of this article Deborah Berke & Partners Architects is at issue with the primary sources (the article is following Wikipedia Rules for Primary Sources Wikipedia:No original research: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.").
If so, perhaps the paragraph could be restructured as such:
The practice has received numerous awards for its work including:
Thank you Meredith at DBA ( talk) 15:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Please advise what is the best way to solve the primary sources issue with the awards list in this article Deborah Berke & Partners Architects. Only primary sources exist for those facts. If this is not adequate, then perhaps the section needs to be removed. Thank you Meredith at DBA ( talk) 13:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you David. I am always very impressed by your work and advice. Could you consider paring the article of its non-notable awards? Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:09, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Bilby just removed the term numerous from "The practice has received numerous awards for its work." While I understand the thought behind it (numerous is a subjective term, it is not supported with an inline citation, one person may look at numerous differently than another), I don't think it improved the section. The statement "The practice has received awards for its work" just sounds bad. Personally, I believe that numerous does apply, I counted 13. Does anybody have any thoughts on how we can rework the intro to that section, or would anybody be terribly opposed to me restoring the word numerous? Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:38, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
{{ Request edit}}
Based on Nthep and Ryan Vesey's Teahouse comments, I would recommend one of the following actions to clarify the leadership structure of the firm in the first sentence of the article Deborah Berke & Partners Architects.
OR If that is not acceptable, then quoting Nthep talk "On the point of the partners, I can think of two things. One, drop it from the text altogether leaving it as Deborah Berke is the principal partner in the firm (this could be referenced to the firm's own website)."
I think naming the leadership team (Maitland Jones, Marc Leff, Stephen Brockman, Caroline Wharton) in addition to Deborah Berke is the most truthful and factual way to list it.
Meredith at DBA ( talk) 14:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
The names of the partners was never in the first sentence. If this would have helped "clarify" the sentence, it would have been a requested edit. In the comments "Thank you for moving your comments inline; Proposed additional changes", in an ettempt to omit the "clarify" comment, I thought as proof that there are 2 partners and 2 principals, I pointed out the infobox contained their names. That comment was misunderstood and the names were then omitted from the infobox. You can see that thread in the same conversation box, in comments by Dori Smith. I hope this helps. Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 16:53, 21 May 2012 (UTC) " {{ Requested Edit}}Would it be possible to add the partners' and principals' names to this sentence to clarify it? As: "Deborah Berke & Partners Architects is a New York City-based architecture and interior design firm founded by Deborah Berke and led by Berke, two partners, Maitland Jones and Marc Leff, and two principals, Stephen Brockman and Caroline Wharton." Thank you Meredith at DBA ( talk) 20:43, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The source I provided is the AIA American Institute of Architects New York Chapter Directory. Here is a link to the firm listing, which lists the Owners/Partners: Deborah Berke, FAIA, LEED AP; Maitland Jones, AIA, LEED AP; Marc Leff, AIA, LEED AP. Unfortunately this directory does not list the principals: Caroline Wharton and Stephen Brockman. http://aiany.aiany.org/index.php?section=firm-directory&cmpid=3227&filter=type&typid=2037
Here is an independent source for Stephen Brockman, Principal: http://www.irhawards.com/jury/Stephen_Brockman.php Thanks Meredith at DBA ( talk) 13:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Ryan. Thank you very much. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 18:37, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
The further reading section is far too extensive. In the interests of paring it down, I will remove all those that don't have links except for "Filler, Martin (March 2001). "Deborah Berke". House Beautiful." unless someone says otherwise in the next 24 hours. I will then start examining the linked ones. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
{{Requested edit}}
The infobox on the
Deborah Berke & Partners Architects article misattributes the
Tyler School of Art at
Temple University as having been designed by Deborah Berke & Partners Architects. Deborah Berke & Partners Architects provided master planning, programming, site analysis and conceptual design services, but they did not design the new building. The School commissioned architectural services in 2005 and selected Carlos Jimenez in collaboration with H2L2. The facility opened in 2008.
For reliable, independent reference proving this information, please look at the following links: http://www.temple.edu/tyler/newtyler/index.html This article states: "The Future of Tyler will be at the center of a vibrant urban creative community, rich with opportunities for inspiration, exhibition, collaboration and cross-disciplinary connection. The new facility and the new location will help Tyler to compete more strongly for faculty, students, and national recognition against other top ranked schools of art.
Designed by architect Carlos Jimenez of Carlos Jimenez Studio in Houston, in collaboration with the Philadelphia based architecture firm, H2L2, the new building at 12th and Norris Streets offers 40 percent more space than the School’s previous facilities. Read more on Carlos Jimenez in the Temple Times Article, "Architect Selected for Tyler Building" from January 2005."
That article is here: http://www.temple.edu/temple_times/1-27-05/jimenez.html
Also, the website of the architect H2L2: http://www.h2l2.com/architecture_gallery_13.php Thank you. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 21:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
{{Requested edit}}
the infobox with the picture on the right side of the article still shows the Tyler School of Art at Temple University. Deborah Berke & Partners Architects did not design this building. thank you.
67.85.225.12 (
talk) 20:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Ryan, it's perfect. Thank you so much. Meredith at DBA ( talk) 16:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
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