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For prior discussions on this topic, see archive 0 (talk from when the content was at Recent deaths) archive1, archive2, and archive3.
I can't find any evidence of his death, other than what was on the Wikipedia page. I did find that he exists/existed, but should we remove him until proof is found?
Likewise no report anywhere else that Madeleine Albright is dead. Somebody playing pranks today?
I looked at the Wikipedia obituaries and noted that convicted murders executed in the USA are listed throughout the 2005 obits (and probably before 2005 - I'm still looking). Can someone please explain why? My guess is someone is trying to make a political statement against the death penalty in the US which, in my view, doesn't belong in the Wikipedia obituary section. There are other sections in Wikipedia where historical perspectives on the death penalty in the US would be more appropriate. An unrelenting listing of all US-executed murders goes beyond the bounds of what you would expect to see in a typical obituary listing (and why only the US? What about China, Iran and other countries? They execute criminals in far greater proportions than the US, but no entries to be found here!). To me, it smacks of a subtle attempt for someone to register their protest over the death penalty in the US.
In all other obituary listings I have seen in the US and around the world, obituaries are usually written about 'significant people' (i.e. famous politicians, movie/television stars, scientists, authors, activists and other noted/historical personalities). Occassionally, 'celebrity' murderers (Richard Speck, Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy, etc.) arguably deserve mention only because of the 'historical' atrocities they committed.
I recommend the serial listing of US-executed criminals be deleted from this section and leave the death penalty issues elsewhere. Or, if executed criminals deserve such mention, then print them for ALL countries, not just the US.
Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tjdigit ( talk • contribs) .
Certain people should be listed (examples: Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Tookie Williams (when/if he is executed), Kenneth Boyd (1,000th man executed since 1977), Gary Gilmore, Timothy McVeigh). However, others should not be listed.
I really think also they should be removed, I just don't relish the giant fight involved. I also think that every last WWI veteran who dies should not be listed, there over 300 left in the world still. Williamb 22:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore among the superold, the only ones who should be listed are the ones on that oldest people list. or if they are truly famous. Living to 107 or 8 is not unusual anymore. Certainly not news. Williamb 22:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone supply a definitive date of death for this gentleman?
An anon user has been moving him back to Deaths in November 2005, and has not responded to a request for a source on their talk page. Unfortnately, the link listed doesn't give an exact date (unless I missed it). -- Syrthiss 15:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The goal of Wikipedia editing is to Be Bold, so I figure on the eve of a new year, we can begin to introduce this new change for the contentious issue of state executions (u.s. and otherwise). I welcome constructive criticism of course, and rewording of the exact link, etcetera. It seems that while it's not perfect for either side of the debate, it reaches a fair middle ground. (If it's a large enough problem I suppose we could also have a similar pages for famous animals...though I doubt it) - and before you ask, yes of course I read all the archives :Þ Sherurcij ( talk) ( bounties) 05:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
As I said at your talk, we have plenty of Europeans listed that I don't know. Convicts executed in the US are notable in the US (and, contrary to Saudi Arabia, say, there is open and noted debate about capital punishment here that spreads this fame.) That they aren't noted elsewhere in the world is no reason to strike them -- notability in the US is sufficient to be added here. If global notability is required of American executed, it should be required of all: if so, I can't justify putting "Duke" Proctor on this list, as he is important to Canada only. Proctor belongs, though, as do the US executed and the Estonian famous musicians. Xoloz 20:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Recent Deaths... scroll through the old months, and count the Estonians, Latvians, Bulgarians... not to demean those nations, but I doubt those fine people rise to the level of global fame you seem to demand for US executed. Xoloz 20:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I will enter this discussion again and restate my opposition to including executed killers in this list. What people seem to mix up here as I have noted in other areas, like Rigoberto Alpizar, is yes, executions are notable in the US because there are sizable groups on both sides of the issue. The executed killers are not in any way notable. A person is notable for what he or she has accomplished, be it as a scientist, a humanitarian, an artist, a politician, name it. A person does not become notable because he happens to have killed someone non-notable and be executed for it. The act is notable for the debate about capital punishment here and abroad, the persons executed are in no way notable.-- Kalsermar 21:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
That is a logically consistent argument, but it is inconsistent with a wide range of practices at Recent Deaths. See Ashley Burns and Kyle Lake for non-executed examples. This page is about notable people, not admirable people, or people with notable careers. As I said above, having a executed murderer beside a Nobel Prize-winning scientist is a bit incongruous, but it is no more incongruous than having Saddam Hussein or Judas beside him. The sad fact is that some evil people become notable in their infamy. Also, note there is much reason for encyclopedic articles on killers. Criminologists study all details of their lives to prevent others from following their path. Xoloz 22:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Another example that belies your argument a tad is Timothy McVeigh. Did nothing exceptional in life till he appears (from his conviction) to have blown up 168 people. Awful. Momentous. McVeigh by that act alone became highly encyclopedic. John B. Nixon isn't super-notable, like McVeigh, but his execution makes him notable enough. Note also that only 1000 people have been executed in the US since 1976. That's about 33 a year. Certainly on par with notable deaths in other categories -- the executed do not flood this list. Xoloz 22:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
For your information, Burns was a cheerleader who died as a result of a tragic accident in practice (kept at AfD); Lake is the Texas Baptist minister tragically electrocuted during a baptism service. Both of these otherwise unremarkable (but quite innocent) people made the list based on press coverage of their deaths, and suggestions that small-scale reform might arise from those tragedies. This is same sort of small-scale reform I suspect a figure like the executed Mr. Nixon might bring about through his crimes, terrible though they were. Xoloz 22:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
And for your information Xoloz, there has been quite a few unfavorable comments offsite about how Wiki insists on listing all the executed in the United States, but lists none of the innocent victims. Giving biased and unfair attention to criminals. Williamb 07:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, "Deaths in 2005" should list any death that receives significant media coverage, including people who might not be notable enough for their own article. The list should executed criminals, crime victims, bizarre freak accidents, and famous zoo animals. I am strongly against segregating executions, as I don't see any particular need to seperate them out nor do I see the need to single them out for special attention. The only consideration I would find acceptable would be for space reasons, but since on our busiest day there's only about 10 names or so, I don't see us running out of space anytime soon. Gamaliel 11:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
There is something wrong with the linkage of this set of pages - but I can't quite put my finger on how it should be made better. It isn't made easier by the fact that 2005 is divided into months whilst earlier years are all 365 days.
Take a not-the-current month in 2005. It is easy to move to any other month in the year and to the entire "Deaths in 2005" page (which at the moment = December), you can also move to Jan 2006 but it is a "red link" cos we haven't got there yet. You can't go back to 2004.
Thoughts: (1) Add a "2004" back arrow before January in each list of months. (2) Make "Deaths in 2005" purely a link to the relevant month pages with no actual data in it. Make the current month just like the other months in style. Hmm, not quite right. -- SGBailey 23:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I hope I don't sound churlish, but why is Phyllis Gretzky included in this list of notable deaths? The article demonstrates no notability, am I missing something here or should this entry be removed? Sliggy 18:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for all those thoughts, folks. I've said all I'm going to say about the late departed James Dungy. All I really care about is consistency. I just don't get how a person can be considered notable enough to have their death recorded here, but not notable enough to have an article written about them. The definition of "notable" is clearly a complex one. Maybe over the holidays someone should have a go at writing a definition that works for all these kinds of cases. 'Cos unless we're all speaking the same language, policy-wise, I'm sure we'll have these sorts of debates forever. But maybe that's a good thing, who knows. Merry Xmas. JackofOz 02:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I won't have a go at a definition, but I can recall a similar case [3] where an entry meriting only redirect -- not an independent article -- passed without objection. As I say, my own standard encompasses article entries and obviously relevant redirects. Happy holidays to you also. Xoloz 14:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 16 June 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
For prior discussions on this topic, see archive 0 (talk from when the content was at Recent deaths) archive1, archive2, and archive3.
I can't find any evidence of his death, other than what was on the Wikipedia page. I did find that he exists/existed, but should we remove him until proof is found?
Likewise no report anywhere else that Madeleine Albright is dead. Somebody playing pranks today?
I looked at the Wikipedia obituaries and noted that convicted murders executed in the USA are listed throughout the 2005 obits (and probably before 2005 - I'm still looking). Can someone please explain why? My guess is someone is trying to make a political statement against the death penalty in the US which, in my view, doesn't belong in the Wikipedia obituary section. There are other sections in Wikipedia where historical perspectives on the death penalty in the US would be more appropriate. An unrelenting listing of all US-executed murders goes beyond the bounds of what you would expect to see in a typical obituary listing (and why only the US? What about China, Iran and other countries? They execute criminals in far greater proportions than the US, but no entries to be found here!). To me, it smacks of a subtle attempt for someone to register their protest over the death penalty in the US.
In all other obituary listings I have seen in the US and around the world, obituaries are usually written about 'significant people' (i.e. famous politicians, movie/television stars, scientists, authors, activists and other noted/historical personalities). Occassionally, 'celebrity' murderers (Richard Speck, Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy, etc.) arguably deserve mention only because of the 'historical' atrocities they committed.
I recommend the serial listing of US-executed criminals be deleted from this section and leave the death penalty issues elsewhere. Or, if executed criminals deserve such mention, then print them for ALL countries, not just the US.
Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tjdigit ( talk • contribs) .
Certain people should be listed (examples: Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Tookie Williams (when/if he is executed), Kenneth Boyd (1,000th man executed since 1977), Gary Gilmore, Timothy McVeigh). However, others should not be listed.
I really think also they should be removed, I just don't relish the giant fight involved. I also think that every last WWI veteran who dies should not be listed, there over 300 left in the world still. Williamb 22:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore among the superold, the only ones who should be listed are the ones on that oldest people list. or if they are truly famous. Living to 107 or 8 is not unusual anymore. Certainly not news. Williamb 22:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone supply a definitive date of death for this gentleman?
An anon user has been moving him back to Deaths in November 2005, and has not responded to a request for a source on their talk page. Unfortnately, the link listed doesn't give an exact date (unless I missed it). -- Syrthiss 15:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The goal of Wikipedia editing is to Be Bold, so I figure on the eve of a new year, we can begin to introduce this new change for the contentious issue of state executions (u.s. and otherwise). I welcome constructive criticism of course, and rewording of the exact link, etcetera. It seems that while it's not perfect for either side of the debate, it reaches a fair middle ground. (If it's a large enough problem I suppose we could also have a similar pages for famous animals...though I doubt it) - and before you ask, yes of course I read all the archives :Þ Sherurcij ( talk) ( bounties) 05:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
As I said at your talk, we have plenty of Europeans listed that I don't know. Convicts executed in the US are notable in the US (and, contrary to Saudi Arabia, say, there is open and noted debate about capital punishment here that spreads this fame.) That they aren't noted elsewhere in the world is no reason to strike them -- notability in the US is sufficient to be added here. If global notability is required of American executed, it should be required of all: if so, I can't justify putting "Duke" Proctor on this list, as he is important to Canada only. Proctor belongs, though, as do the US executed and the Estonian famous musicians. Xoloz 20:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Recent Deaths... scroll through the old months, and count the Estonians, Latvians, Bulgarians... not to demean those nations, but I doubt those fine people rise to the level of global fame you seem to demand for US executed. Xoloz 20:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I will enter this discussion again and restate my opposition to including executed killers in this list. What people seem to mix up here as I have noted in other areas, like Rigoberto Alpizar, is yes, executions are notable in the US because there are sizable groups on both sides of the issue. The executed killers are not in any way notable. A person is notable for what he or she has accomplished, be it as a scientist, a humanitarian, an artist, a politician, name it. A person does not become notable because he happens to have killed someone non-notable and be executed for it. The act is notable for the debate about capital punishment here and abroad, the persons executed are in no way notable.-- Kalsermar 21:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
That is a logically consistent argument, but it is inconsistent with a wide range of practices at Recent Deaths. See Ashley Burns and Kyle Lake for non-executed examples. This page is about notable people, not admirable people, or people with notable careers. As I said above, having a executed murderer beside a Nobel Prize-winning scientist is a bit incongruous, but it is no more incongruous than having Saddam Hussein or Judas beside him. The sad fact is that some evil people become notable in their infamy. Also, note there is much reason for encyclopedic articles on killers. Criminologists study all details of their lives to prevent others from following their path. Xoloz 22:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Another example that belies your argument a tad is Timothy McVeigh. Did nothing exceptional in life till he appears (from his conviction) to have blown up 168 people. Awful. Momentous. McVeigh by that act alone became highly encyclopedic. John B. Nixon isn't super-notable, like McVeigh, but his execution makes him notable enough. Note also that only 1000 people have been executed in the US since 1976. That's about 33 a year. Certainly on par with notable deaths in other categories -- the executed do not flood this list. Xoloz 22:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
For your information, Burns was a cheerleader who died as a result of a tragic accident in practice (kept at AfD); Lake is the Texas Baptist minister tragically electrocuted during a baptism service. Both of these otherwise unremarkable (but quite innocent) people made the list based on press coverage of their deaths, and suggestions that small-scale reform might arise from those tragedies. This is same sort of small-scale reform I suspect a figure like the executed Mr. Nixon might bring about through his crimes, terrible though they were. Xoloz 22:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
And for your information Xoloz, there has been quite a few unfavorable comments offsite about how Wiki insists on listing all the executed in the United States, but lists none of the innocent victims. Giving biased and unfair attention to criminals. Williamb 07:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, "Deaths in 2005" should list any death that receives significant media coverage, including people who might not be notable enough for their own article. The list should executed criminals, crime victims, bizarre freak accidents, and famous zoo animals. I am strongly against segregating executions, as I don't see any particular need to seperate them out nor do I see the need to single them out for special attention. The only consideration I would find acceptable would be for space reasons, but since on our busiest day there's only about 10 names or so, I don't see us running out of space anytime soon. Gamaliel 11:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
There is something wrong with the linkage of this set of pages - but I can't quite put my finger on how it should be made better. It isn't made easier by the fact that 2005 is divided into months whilst earlier years are all 365 days.
Take a not-the-current month in 2005. It is easy to move to any other month in the year and to the entire "Deaths in 2005" page (which at the moment = December), you can also move to Jan 2006 but it is a "red link" cos we haven't got there yet. You can't go back to 2004.
Thoughts: (1) Add a "2004" back arrow before January in each list of months. (2) Make "Deaths in 2005" purely a link to the relevant month pages with no actual data in it. Make the current month just like the other months in style. Hmm, not quite right. -- SGBailey 23:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I hope I don't sound churlish, but why is Phyllis Gretzky included in this list of notable deaths? The article demonstrates no notability, am I missing something here or should this entry be removed? Sliggy 18:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for all those thoughts, folks. I've said all I'm going to say about the late departed James Dungy. All I really care about is consistency. I just don't get how a person can be considered notable enough to have their death recorded here, but not notable enough to have an article written about them. The definition of "notable" is clearly a complex one. Maybe over the holidays someone should have a go at writing a definition that works for all these kinds of cases. 'Cos unless we're all speaking the same language, policy-wise, I'm sure we'll have these sorts of debates forever. But maybe that's a good thing, who knows. Merry Xmas. JackofOz 02:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I won't have a go at a definition, but I can recall a similar case [3] where an entry meriting only redirect -- not an independent article -- passed without objection. As I say, my own standard encompasses article entries and obviously relevant redirects. Happy holidays to you also. Xoloz 14:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)