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SMU and Kentucky are not the only programs to receive the death penalty.
In 1973, the University of Southwestern Louisiana's (now Louisiana-Lafayette) men's basketball program received the death penalty from the NCAA for two years.
Here is some info in that regard:
http://www.athleticnetwork.net/site70.php
Cdebaillon ( talk) 18:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
In addition, senior center Bill Spivey was charged with perjury for refusing to testify against his teammates.
I am puzzled by this statement. Perjury is lying under oath. How can someone be charged with perjury for refusing to testify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clubiguana ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
To state that this was a death penalty is very misleading as kentucky returned all eligible players and the same coach..where as the death penalty is a complete dismantling of the program..after the suspension there was no penalties or ineligible players.. in fact the ncaa cleared 3 of the UK players to play the season in 54 and then retracted their eligibility when they went undefeated and would not allow them to play in the post season tourney..after having allowed other post graduates to play..so by the very definition of the death penalty this does not fit the mold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.65.10 ( talk) 02:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
This entire section is a POV, OT travesty. Not a single WP:RS is cited in support of the contention that ANY of these four schools "almost" received the NCAA death penalty. All that is here is speculation in view of the possibility that these schools might have. One source is misapplied - here is a direct quotation from one of the articles used to support the Alabama contention:
This essentially refutes the contention that Alabama "escaped" the death penalty.
The section on USC is worse - all innuendo, supposition, and inference based on the facts as presented - a classic example of WP:OR. The Baylor section offers not a single source in support.
Additionally - what makes these probations more "notable" and nearer the death penalty than dozens of others? Again - it smacks of WP:OR, as if editors merely added a few cases with which they were vaguely familiar. Where is the evidence that this list is exhaustive? Why were these schools chosen?
The entire section is unencyclopedic POV. Unless WP:RS appear in two days, I will revert the section, which is potentially libelous as it stands.
FWIW - I have no personal stake in this whatsoever beyond a desire for accuracy. As my User page indicates, I am a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and have no particular affinity for any of these schools beyond the respect that one accords a rival. But this section is the very incarnation of all that a Wikipedia article should not be and too often is. Sensei48 ( talk) 04:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
a) is properly, objectively, and accurately sourced - which these are not -
b) explain with sourcing why these cases are more notable than or closer to receiving the death penalty than dozens of other infraction cases, and
c) eschew the inferential and gossipy style or writing here present,
then maybe a section like this can remain in the article. I doubt it though - establishing these four cases as objectively more significant than dozens of others is virtually impossible. They seem concocted from animus for the universities mentioned. Sensei48 ( talk) 09:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I thought you'd like to know that content you previously deleted as original research has been recently restored to this article. Oore ( talk) 14:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Having read all of the above discussion, I will suggest that, in the "Current criteria" section, a second paragraph could be added mentioning that:
The majority of the last two paragraphs of the SMU section, including the Lombardi quote and the Kentucky incident could then be added to this. Thoughts? cmadler ( talk) 18:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
The lede sentence in the article states "The death penalty is the popular term for the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA)'s power to ban a school from competing in a sport for at least one year. It is the harshest penalty that an NCAA member school can receive." "Self-imposed" does not mean the same thing at all. A school voluntarily cancelling a season is NOT an NCAAsanction. Further, the suggestion that USF was "facing the death Penalty" is WP:OR and POV since the NCAA COI does not comment on its deliberations except when it imposes sanctions. USF is not an example of the NCAA forbidding a team to compete, which is what the so-called Death Penalty is. As noted before, this school-initiated action belongs in a discussion of USF, not here. Sensei48 ( talk) 07:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
There have been quite a few calls (google search) for an NCAA death penalty against Penn State (in fact that is how I first even heard of an NCAA death penalty, and went to this article to find out what it was). I added a mention of it but it was reverted as "illegitimate". [3]
Earlier stuff I saw was from various op-ed columns and the like, that I didn't see as worth adding to the article, but the ESPN piece that I cited directly quotes the NCAA president at some length, which seems relevant to me. You've got the top NCAA official telling a major sports reporting outlet that there is an ongoing proceeding that may lead to an NCAA death penalty, and that the Penn State misconduct was far worse than SMU's. The SMU section of the article already discusses some other incidents in which a death penalty was considered by not imposed, so it's bogus to say that Penn State should only be mentioned in the article if a death penalty actually happens. So, I think the Penn State mention should go back into the article, though it could be worded/cited differently and/or put in a different part of the article than where I had it at first.
67.117.146.199 ( talk) 05:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
The Miami stuff (I hadn't heard of it, but just looked it up) was apparently about somebody giving improper payments to players, which is chickenfeed compared to PSU's covering up years of child molestation, so I can't agree about the charges against Miami being "more extensive" than those against PSU. I do think the Miami stuff should be in the article since it received extensive press coverage. The idea that the NCAA is the sole acceptable source of info about this stuff is illogical. We're supposed to report all significant viewpoints ( WP:NPOV). 67.117.146.199 ( talk) 08:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
So I guess for the moment we will have a portion of the SMU section in the NCAA death penalty article about 3 schools that did not get the death penalty, regardless of how illogical that is. The edits I have appended today cast serious doubt on the nature of the assertions made - the language of the actual COI report on Baylor uses the SMU death penalty as a touchstone to distinguish Baylor's response from SMU's, not to indicate that the Committee ever actually considered the death penalty for Baylor. The COI report for Kentucky is a bit more explicit on that point but again trips over itself to praise the university's handling of the affair. In both cases, the reference to the death penalty is used by the COI to highlight the ameliorative actions of the schools' administrations, not to tell the world that the schools "almost" received the death penalty, or in the case of Baylor that it was ever under serious consideration - to suggest so from the text is WP:OR. Penn State is problematic, not surprising for such recentism - you have Erickson justifying PSU's acceptance of the consent decree on the basis of the threat of the death penalty and the NCAA's Ray immediately denying that it was ever considered.
When I removed this kind of innuendo and OR from the article before, two or three other editors concurred in the extensive discussions above. Currently, though, I'm outnumbered by User:HangingCurve and User:JoBrLa, so by all our Wiki rules I won't revert it. However - the COI quotations added today are important to clarify what the committee actually said and thus let readers come to their own judgments.
More critically and per the discussion above, I've CN tagged the assertion that these cases are the ONLY ones since SMU in which the COI actually considered a death penalty. Please take a look above regarding that point. Death penalty talk surfaced in the recent USC, Ohio State, Miami, Alabama, and North Carolina scandals and there was even a whisper or two regarding Boise State and Oregon. You'd need a sound source - which I maintain above you can never find - that the cases presented in the article now were the only times the death penalty was considered.
Finally, the point needs to be addressed about why an article about the death penalty would include cases in which there was no death penalty. The proper place for such discussion is in the articles on the athletic programs in question and in the articles on the scandals - which I note HangingCurve has attempted to do. More soon, I'm sure. regards, Sensei48 ( talk) 01:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
As a result, the NCAA has determined that the University's sanctions be designed to not only penalize the University for contravention of the NCAA Constitution and Bylaws, but also to change the culture that allowed this activity to occur and realign it in a sustainable fashion with the expected norms and values of intercollegiate athletics. Moreover, the NCAA recognizes that in this instance no student-athlete is responsible for these events and, therefore, the NCAA has fashioned its sanctions in consideration of the potential impact on all student~athletes. To Wit, after serious consideration and significant discussion, the NCAA has determined not to impose the so-called "death penalty." While these circumstances certainly are severe, the suspension of competition is most warranted when the institution is a repeat violator and has failed to cooperate or take corrective action. The University has never before had NCAA major violations, accepted these penalties and corrective actions, has removed all of the individual offenders identified by PSS from their past senior leadership roles, has itself commissioned the FSS investigation and provided unprecedented access and openness, in some instances, even agreed to waive attorney-client privilege, and already has implemented many corrective actions. Acknowledging these and other factors, the NCAA does not deem the so-called "death penalty" to be appropriate.
As for the possibility of innuendo appearing in an RS: I suppose it could happen, such as if person A was trying to convey a viewpoint that person B was culpable, without coming out and saying so explicitly. If we determined that the viewpoint was significant (and in Wikipedia the most solid marker of something's significance is the weight of secondary RS discussing it) then our duty under NPOV would be to include it, with appropriate in-text attribution and with due care towards any implicated living people. But I think that has not been an issue here so far.
Finally, about the cases where the DP was considered but not carried out: again the standard for whether to include it is the level of significance, as measured (among other things) by the weight of secondary coverage. In the PSU case the secondary coverage is extensive, so it should be included at some length. I don't know about other cases. Perhaps they could just be listed with citations but without devoting space to details. If there's still enough that the article gets overlong, it's fine to split it out to another article, like the impeachment investigation article I linked earlier. Right now the article is just 25k, so it can grow for a while before splitting it is warranted ( WP:SIZERULE). 67.117.146.199 ( talk) 18:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Why are these programs not listed as "near-death occurences"? When 'Bama was sanctioned for major violations in 2002, Tom Yeager said the "Death Penalty" was on the table and that the Crimson Tide were "staring down the barrel of a gun". When Baylor was sanctioned in 2003-2005, the Death Penalty was on the table due to the seriousness of the sanctions and the fact that a player was murdered, and indeed a half-season death penalty was issued. When USC got sanctioned, there were violations in both football and men's basketball with Reggie Bush and O.J. Mayo, and the death penalty was considered. -- JoBrLa ( talk) 23:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
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SMU and Kentucky are not the only programs to receive the death penalty.
In 1973, the University of Southwestern Louisiana's (now Louisiana-Lafayette) men's basketball program received the death penalty from the NCAA for two years.
Here is some info in that regard:
http://www.athleticnetwork.net/site70.php
Cdebaillon ( talk) 18:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
In addition, senior center Bill Spivey was charged with perjury for refusing to testify against his teammates.
I am puzzled by this statement. Perjury is lying under oath. How can someone be charged with perjury for refusing to testify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clubiguana ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
To state that this was a death penalty is very misleading as kentucky returned all eligible players and the same coach..where as the death penalty is a complete dismantling of the program..after the suspension there was no penalties or ineligible players.. in fact the ncaa cleared 3 of the UK players to play the season in 54 and then retracted their eligibility when they went undefeated and would not allow them to play in the post season tourney..after having allowed other post graduates to play..so by the very definition of the death penalty this does not fit the mold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.65.10 ( talk) 02:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
This entire section is a POV, OT travesty. Not a single WP:RS is cited in support of the contention that ANY of these four schools "almost" received the NCAA death penalty. All that is here is speculation in view of the possibility that these schools might have. One source is misapplied - here is a direct quotation from one of the articles used to support the Alabama contention:
This essentially refutes the contention that Alabama "escaped" the death penalty.
The section on USC is worse - all innuendo, supposition, and inference based on the facts as presented - a classic example of WP:OR. The Baylor section offers not a single source in support.
Additionally - what makes these probations more "notable" and nearer the death penalty than dozens of others? Again - it smacks of WP:OR, as if editors merely added a few cases with which they were vaguely familiar. Where is the evidence that this list is exhaustive? Why were these schools chosen?
The entire section is unencyclopedic POV. Unless WP:RS appear in two days, I will revert the section, which is potentially libelous as it stands.
FWIW - I have no personal stake in this whatsoever beyond a desire for accuracy. As my User page indicates, I am a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and have no particular affinity for any of these schools beyond the respect that one accords a rival. But this section is the very incarnation of all that a Wikipedia article should not be and too often is. Sensei48 ( talk) 04:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
a) is properly, objectively, and accurately sourced - which these are not -
b) explain with sourcing why these cases are more notable than or closer to receiving the death penalty than dozens of other infraction cases, and
c) eschew the inferential and gossipy style or writing here present,
then maybe a section like this can remain in the article. I doubt it though - establishing these four cases as objectively more significant than dozens of others is virtually impossible. They seem concocted from animus for the universities mentioned. Sensei48 ( talk) 09:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I thought you'd like to know that content you previously deleted as original research has been recently restored to this article. Oore ( talk) 14:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Having read all of the above discussion, I will suggest that, in the "Current criteria" section, a second paragraph could be added mentioning that:
The majority of the last two paragraphs of the SMU section, including the Lombardi quote and the Kentucky incident could then be added to this. Thoughts? cmadler ( talk) 18:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
The lede sentence in the article states "The death penalty is the popular term for the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA)'s power to ban a school from competing in a sport for at least one year. It is the harshest penalty that an NCAA member school can receive." "Self-imposed" does not mean the same thing at all. A school voluntarily cancelling a season is NOT an NCAAsanction. Further, the suggestion that USF was "facing the death Penalty" is WP:OR and POV since the NCAA COI does not comment on its deliberations except when it imposes sanctions. USF is not an example of the NCAA forbidding a team to compete, which is what the so-called Death Penalty is. As noted before, this school-initiated action belongs in a discussion of USF, not here. Sensei48 ( talk) 07:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
There have been quite a few calls (google search) for an NCAA death penalty against Penn State (in fact that is how I first even heard of an NCAA death penalty, and went to this article to find out what it was). I added a mention of it but it was reverted as "illegitimate". [3]
Earlier stuff I saw was from various op-ed columns and the like, that I didn't see as worth adding to the article, but the ESPN piece that I cited directly quotes the NCAA president at some length, which seems relevant to me. You've got the top NCAA official telling a major sports reporting outlet that there is an ongoing proceeding that may lead to an NCAA death penalty, and that the Penn State misconduct was far worse than SMU's. The SMU section of the article already discusses some other incidents in which a death penalty was considered by not imposed, so it's bogus to say that Penn State should only be mentioned in the article if a death penalty actually happens. So, I think the Penn State mention should go back into the article, though it could be worded/cited differently and/or put in a different part of the article than where I had it at first.
67.117.146.199 ( talk) 05:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
The Miami stuff (I hadn't heard of it, but just looked it up) was apparently about somebody giving improper payments to players, which is chickenfeed compared to PSU's covering up years of child molestation, so I can't agree about the charges against Miami being "more extensive" than those against PSU. I do think the Miami stuff should be in the article since it received extensive press coverage. The idea that the NCAA is the sole acceptable source of info about this stuff is illogical. We're supposed to report all significant viewpoints ( WP:NPOV). 67.117.146.199 ( talk) 08:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
So I guess for the moment we will have a portion of the SMU section in the NCAA death penalty article about 3 schools that did not get the death penalty, regardless of how illogical that is. The edits I have appended today cast serious doubt on the nature of the assertions made - the language of the actual COI report on Baylor uses the SMU death penalty as a touchstone to distinguish Baylor's response from SMU's, not to indicate that the Committee ever actually considered the death penalty for Baylor. The COI report for Kentucky is a bit more explicit on that point but again trips over itself to praise the university's handling of the affair. In both cases, the reference to the death penalty is used by the COI to highlight the ameliorative actions of the schools' administrations, not to tell the world that the schools "almost" received the death penalty, or in the case of Baylor that it was ever under serious consideration - to suggest so from the text is WP:OR. Penn State is problematic, not surprising for such recentism - you have Erickson justifying PSU's acceptance of the consent decree on the basis of the threat of the death penalty and the NCAA's Ray immediately denying that it was ever considered.
When I removed this kind of innuendo and OR from the article before, two or three other editors concurred in the extensive discussions above. Currently, though, I'm outnumbered by User:HangingCurve and User:JoBrLa, so by all our Wiki rules I won't revert it. However - the COI quotations added today are important to clarify what the committee actually said and thus let readers come to their own judgments.
More critically and per the discussion above, I've CN tagged the assertion that these cases are the ONLY ones since SMU in which the COI actually considered a death penalty. Please take a look above regarding that point. Death penalty talk surfaced in the recent USC, Ohio State, Miami, Alabama, and North Carolina scandals and there was even a whisper or two regarding Boise State and Oregon. You'd need a sound source - which I maintain above you can never find - that the cases presented in the article now were the only times the death penalty was considered.
Finally, the point needs to be addressed about why an article about the death penalty would include cases in which there was no death penalty. The proper place for such discussion is in the articles on the athletic programs in question and in the articles on the scandals - which I note HangingCurve has attempted to do. More soon, I'm sure. regards, Sensei48 ( talk) 01:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
As a result, the NCAA has determined that the University's sanctions be designed to not only penalize the University for contravention of the NCAA Constitution and Bylaws, but also to change the culture that allowed this activity to occur and realign it in a sustainable fashion with the expected norms and values of intercollegiate athletics. Moreover, the NCAA recognizes that in this instance no student-athlete is responsible for these events and, therefore, the NCAA has fashioned its sanctions in consideration of the potential impact on all student~athletes. To Wit, after serious consideration and significant discussion, the NCAA has determined not to impose the so-called "death penalty." While these circumstances certainly are severe, the suspension of competition is most warranted when the institution is a repeat violator and has failed to cooperate or take corrective action. The University has never before had NCAA major violations, accepted these penalties and corrective actions, has removed all of the individual offenders identified by PSS from their past senior leadership roles, has itself commissioned the FSS investigation and provided unprecedented access and openness, in some instances, even agreed to waive attorney-client privilege, and already has implemented many corrective actions. Acknowledging these and other factors, the NCAA does not deem the so-called "death penalty" to be appropriate.
As for the possibility of innuendo appearing in an RS: I suppose it could happen, such as if person A was trying to convey a viewpoint that person B was culpable, without coming out and saying so explicitly. If we determined that the viewpoint was significant (and in Wikipedia the most solid marker of something's significance is the weight of secondary RS discussing it) then our duty under NPOV would be to include it, with appropriate in-text attribution and with due care towards any implicated living people. But I think that has not been an issue here so far.
Finally, about the cases where the DP was considered but not carried out: again the standard for whether to include it is the level of significance, as measured (among other things) by the weight of secondary coverage. In the PSU case the secondary coverage is extensive, so it should be included at some length. I don't know about other cases. Perhaps they could just be listed with citations but without devoting space to details. If there's still enough that the article gets overlong, it's fine to split it out to another article, like the impeachment investigation article I linked earlier. Right now the article is just 25k, so it can grow for a while before splitting it is warranted ( WP:SIZERULE). 67.117.146.199 ( talk) 18:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Why are these programs not listed as "near-death occurences"? When 'Bama was sanctioned for major violations in 2002, Tom Yeager said the "Death Penalty" was on the table and that the Crimson Tide were "staring down the barrel of a gun". When Baylor was sanctioned in 2003-2005, the Death Penalty was on the table due to the seriousness of the sanctions and the fact that a player was murdered, and indeed a half-season death penalty was issued. When USC got sanctioned, there were violations in both football and men's basketball with Reggie Bush and O.J. Mayo, and the death penalty was considered. -- JoBrLa ( talk) 23:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
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