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Hi Wikipedians, long time reader, first time writer. In the Overview Section, it says "On July 11, 2011, Zahau and Max Shacknai were at the Spreckels Beach House along with Zahau's teenage sister Xena when Shacknai’s son Max fell over a second-floor banister." This sentence doesn't make sense, as it names Max twice. I think the first Max may have been a typo, and that Jonah's name should have been used instead. However, upon reviewing the source named immediately after, it says that Zahau was the only adult home, so the whole sentence may be incorrect. I know this case is controversial, and I know little about it, so rather than making any edits of my own I will leave it up to whoever is more experienced and comes across this.
Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:4380:40B0:C9C8:14D3:5599:E228 ( talk) 16:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Quill and Pen ( talk) 14:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Lefthandedkitten removed a disturbing amount of sourced material from this article, and then made a number of unsourced and controversial additions and alterations to the wording (including some tampering of language from the sources) that presented a POV slant on Zahau. Much of the questionable material has been removed, but I have now restored the properly sourced material, as well. Grandpallama ( talk) 14:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Not sure what the point of mentioning the pet dogs she's had has to do with anything. Removing. Wikifier ( talk) 17:16, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
It was written the child took a life-threatening fall. This is inaccurate as the fall was fatal not life-threatening. It would have been a life-threatening fall, if the child had survived. The child did not survive making his fall a fatal one. As to the other comments about NPOV, I will leave that for others to decide. When I edited this article as part of the Copy Editor's Guild copy editing drive, I aimed to tighten sentences and improve writing. That's my goal when I am doing CE. I did attempt to maintain, and to add neutral sources, when I did the CE. Quill and Pen ( talk) 04:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
A little late but I did edit this article as part of the GOCE drive. Quill and Pen ( talk) 22:00, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
The article has consistently stated Suicide as the cause of death since its inception. Temporarily several editors and IP's have attempted to redefine the cause of death based upon the outcome of a civil case brought against Adam Shacknai. This is both fundamentally a misunderstanding of what civil cases are (and judgements), and also what the actual outcome of the trial stated. At no point was "murder" an outcome of the trial, and you will find no instance of any reliable source using those words - a civil case cannot make those changes or claims. The attempt to frame the death as unexplained or somehow cast doubt on the suicide aspect remains a conspiracy theory. To suggest that a Sheriff and Coroner are unable to define the cause of death, or lack the standing to do so, is not only false it is in direct opposition to the facts. The investigation, and coroners report, are issued by the only legal entities able to.make those decisions barring an external agency being brought in (such as the FBI). The attempt to place multiple sources into the infobox to support multiple conflicting claims, while claiming "nuance" is a red herring. There is no nuance on the cause of death. The death certificate is final until it is revised following reinvestigation. The use of multiple sources to muddy the waters and create a synthetic argument that none of the individual articles state is WP:SYNTH and verging on WP:OR if not right over the line. Koncorde ( talk) 23:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources.You need secondary sources that state that Zahau died by suicide, not simply that her death was ruled a suicide. -- Elephanthunter ( talk) 18:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event.Two of those sources do not state that she committed suicide, only that her death was an "alleged suicide" or "ruled a suicide". Three of the sources mention the dispute, which lends credence to the fact that this article is unbalanced. -- Elephanthunter ( talk) 18:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Just going through some of the sources for some of the claims etc and have noticed a lot is attributed to the International Business Times. A couple of issues crop up here:
I have particular concerns over the "death" section which seems to be WP:SYNTH, blending a mix of claims by coroner, witness (Adam Shacknai), family, and speculation. It probably needs reorganising into a better logical progression segregating before her death, Adam Shacknai's testimony, then what was discovered post, and the outcome of the autopsy and investigation last. At present autopsy information and speculation is being included within all three parts creating an odd loop of information. Koncorde ( talk) 10:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Curious for feedback; it seems Dina Shacknai/Romano paid for her own independent investigators who concluded that Max had been "killed". She subsequently made pleas to reinvestigate. So while it seems that a lot of attention has been placed on Zahau, should we cover more of the Max Shacknai case also in this article? Is it worth making this a "Deaths of Rebecca Zahau and Max Shacknai" article? Some links to articles are provided, some are significantly less reliable than others but all seem to be covering largely the same topics, and quoting the same interviews and experts. Seems oddly omitted otherwise (given the large quantity of speculation already reported in what is a laundry list of conspiracy theories). [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] Koncorde ( talk) 11:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The story jumps back and forth between calling Jonah Shacknai both “Shacknai” and “Jonah”. I think it happened with Adam Shacknai, also, and possibly the son, Max. When there’s this many people in a story with the same last name, it gets too confusing. I had to read it over a few times to figure out who it was talking about. If possible, it would help to consistently use the same name, preferably the first name. I don’t know how to edit, yet. I will to, as I have extensive information on many things. This is a good site and I love contributing knowledge. In the meantime, I hope I have placed my suggestion properly on the page and someone can make the edits I mentioned, until I learn how. It will help the reader better follow this unusual and complex mystery. KarmaCar ( talk) 13:06, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi Wikipedians, long time reader, first time writer. In the Overview Section, it says "On July 11, 2011, Zahau and Max Shacknai were at the Spreckels Beach House along with Zahau's teenage sister Xena when Shacknai’s son Max fell over a second-floor banister." This sentence doesn't make sense, as it names Max twice. I think the first Max may have been a typo, and that Jonah's name should have been used instead. However, upon reviewing the source named immediately after, it says that Zahau was the only adult home, so the whole sentence may be incorrect. I know this case is controversial, and I know little about it, so rather than making any edits of my own I will leave it up to whoever is more experienced and comes across this.
Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:4380:40B0:C9C8:14D3:5599:E228 ( talk) 16:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Quill and Pen ( talk) 14:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Lefthandedkitten removed a disturbing amount of sourced material from this article, and then made a number of unsourced and controversial additions and alterations to the wording (including some tampering of language from the sources) that presented a POV slant on Zahau. Much of the questionable material has been removed, but I have now restored the properly sourced material, as well. Grandpallama ( talk) 14:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Not sure what the point of mentioning the pet dogs she's had has to do with anything. Removing. Wikifier ( talk) 17:16, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
It was written the child took a life-threatening fall. This is inaccurate as the fall was fatal not life-threatening. It would have been a life-threatening fall, if the child had survived. The child did not survive making his fall a fatal one. As to the other comments about NPOV, I will leave that for others to decide. When I edited this article as part of the Copy Editor's Guild copy editing drive, I aimed to tighten sentences and improve writing. That's my goal when I am doing CE. I did attempt to maintain, and to add neutral sources, when I did the CE. Quill and Pen ( talk) 04:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
A little late but I did edit this article as part of the GOCE drive. Quill and Pen ( talk) 22:00, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
The article has consistently stated Suicide as the cause of death since its inception. Temporarily several editors and IP's have attempted to redefine the cause of death based upon the outcome of a civil case brought against Adam Shacknai. This is both fundamentally a misunderstanding of what civil cases are (and judgements), and also what the actual outcome of the trial stated. At no point was "murder" an outcome of the trial, and you will find no instance of any reliable source using those words - a civil case cannot make those changes or claims. The attempt to frame the death as unexplained or somehow cast doubt on the suicide aspect remains a conspiracy theory. To suggest that a Sheriff and Coroner are unable to define the cause of death, or lack the standing to do so, is not only false it is in direct opposition to the facts. The investigation, and coroners report, are issued by the only legal entities able to.make those decisions barring an external agency being brought in (such as the FBI). The attempt to place multiple sources into the infobox to support multiple conflicting claims, while claiming "nuance" is a red herring. There is no nuance on the cause of death. The death certificate is final until it is revised following reinvestigation. The use of multiple sources to muddy the waters and create a synthetic argument that none of the individual articles state is WP:SYNTH and verging on WP:OR if not right over the line. Koncorde ( talk) 23:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources.You need secondary sources that state that Zahau died by suicide, not simply that her death was ruled a suicide. -- Elephanthunter ( talk) 18:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event.Two of those sources do not state that she committed suicide, only that her death was an "alleged suicide" or "ruled a suicide". Three of the sources mention the dispute, which lends credence to the fact that this article is unbalanced. -- Elephanthunter ( talk) 18:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Just going through some of the sources for some of the claims etc and have noticed a lot is attributed to the International Business Times. A couple of issues crop up here:
I have particular concerns over the "death" section which seems to be WP:SYNTH, blending a mix of claims by coroner, witness (Adam Shacknai), family, and speculation. It probably needs reorganising into a better logical progression segregating before her death, Adam Shacknai's testimony, then what was discovered post, and the outcome of the autopsy and investigation last. At present autopsy information and speculation is being included within all three parts creating an odd loop of information. Koncorde ( talk) 10:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Curious for feedback; it seems Dina Shacknai/Romano paid for her own independent investigators who concluded that Max had been "killed". She subsequently made pleas to reinvestigate. So while it seems that a lot of attention has been placed on Zahau, should we cover more of the Max Shacknai case also in this article? Is it worth making this a "Deaths of Rebecca Zahau and Max Shacknai" article? Some links to articles are provided, some are significantly less reliable than others but all seem to be covering largely the same topics, and quoting the same interviews and experts. Seems oddly omitted otherwise (given the large quantity of speculation already reported in what is a laundry list of conspiracy theories). [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] Koncorde ( talk) 11:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The story jumps back and forth between calling Jonah Shacknai both “Shacknai” and “Jonah”. I think it happened with Adam Shacknai, also, and possibly the son, Max. When there’s this many people in a story with the same last name, it gets too confusing. I had to read it over a few times to figure out who it was talking about. If possible, it would help to consistently use the same name, preferably the first name. I don’t know how to edit, yet. I will to, as I have extensive information on many things. This is a good site and I love contributing knowledge. In the meantime, I hope I have placed my suggestion properly on the page and someone can make the edits I mentioned, until I learn how. It will help the reader better follow this unusual and complex mystery. KarmaCar ( talk) 13:06, 27 March 2022 (UTC)