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...to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments. In this case, "irrelevant arguments" would certainly include any that did not address the request:
Is use of murder ... against the WP:NPOV policy?In that regard, there is a consensus that use of the term "murder" does not violate NPOV. This is closed on that limited question and that question only. This is not a judgment or reflection on what the proper use of the term is, nor on what is the correct name of the article, nor on any previously- or even future-proposed page moves. ( non-admin closure) Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
This RfC is an extension of the Talk:Death of JonBenét Ramsey#I have removed "Murder" references discussion on the talk page, which is an extension of a recent move discussion. One view is that use of the word murder within the article is against the WP:NPOV policy since "the result of the Request to Move was that this article should be called 'Death of..' not 'Murder of...' because the theory that JonBenét was murdered, while plausible, is not the only plausible theory accepted by reliable sources. There is a substantial body of respectable thought that she was the victim of an accidental killing." Because of this view, it is argued that we also cannot use murder categories in the article. The other view is that the rationale for moving the article is flawed because the WP:NPOV policy, especially its WP:Due weight section, is about giving most of our weight to what the majority of reliable sources state. The vast majority of reliable sources call JonBenét Ramsey's death a murder. Therefore, stating that she was murdered and/or using "murder" categories is not a violation of the WP:NPOV policy. Furthermore, as has been noted before, murder is not always intentional.
I will alert related WikiProjects to this RfC, editors at
Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view,
Wikipedia talk:Article titles and
Wikipedia talk:Verifiability, and editors at
WP:Village pump (policy)
WP:Village pump (miscellaneous) (Village pump (policy) is not for dispute issues.)
Flyer22 Reborn (
talk) 01:40, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
No. It's one thing to suggest that we avoid the word murder. It's another thing to use one of our core policies, the WP:NPOV policy, to shape the article in a way that the core policy does not at all support. The WP:NPOV policy does not support us avoiding the word murder or the removal of the following important murder categories: Category:1996 murders in the United States, Category:Murdered American children, Category:People murdered in Colorado and Category:Unsolved murders in the United States. Also see my commentary in the Discussion section below. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:39, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
CommentYes. I believe that use of the word murder excludes manslaughter and it means disregarding source content that does not support a murder theory (and I mean this broadly beyond a family member) - and giving
WP:UNDUE weight to the murder theory, since there is no conviction.--
CaroleHenson
(talk) 04:09, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
the survey is not about whether or not we should use "murder" in the title. It's about whether or not using the term murder or murder categories anywhere in the article is against the WP:NPOV policy. My argument is obviously that it's not against the WP:NPOV policy.said to Montanabw by Flyer22Reborn on 08:37, 24 December 2016, I don't consider it a NPOV issue to use "murder" in the article the way it is now and I don't have a problem with the categorization of murder, as I said below. My issue is greater use of the word murder and renaming the article to "Murder of" JBR, because I think that would be undue weight based upon the sources.--— CaroleHenson (talk) 18:56, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
No - It's a nuanced case, I'll grant, but ultimately I feel WP:WEIGHT must control here, certainly above the alternative here, which essentially is a kind of WP:OR (applying deductive reasoning to the facts to decide what the appropriate terminology "must" be, rather than just going with the language employed by the strong majority of the sources). I understand what Carole is arguing here, but a number of factors discount it as the policy-correct approach. First, we are not talking about applying the correct legal term; we're an encyclopedia, not a jury--we use the language of our sources and do not engage in an OR analysis of whether it is precise, meant to impute a certain threshold of guilt,or just simple common parlance. Second, states which use common law principles of murder vary considerably on where they place the divide between murder or manslaughter (or whether they have one at all) and the legal distinctions can be quite complex and differential between jurisdiction, meaning we'd be engaging in yet more OR if we tried to decide the "right" term rather than the term used by our sources (remember, Wikipedia's standard is verifiability, not truth); as just one example of an uncountable number of variations--depending on the facts, even if the crime met the conditions for manslaughter in Colorado, it could still be felony murder. Anyway, this is all really beside the point and added to demonstrate exactly why Wikipedia had adopted a standard of keeping our own analysis of the facts out of the equation. Insofar as our reliable sources clearly label the death a murder in general, there's really no question here: we have to use that terminology. WP:UNDUE is not about comparing the variety of theories, it's strictly about looking at the WP:WEIGHT of our sources, and the language they employ. Snow let's rap 05:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes - sort of - I didn't see a clear question put for RFC, but the argument for 'murder' as higher weight seems flawed in 2 ways. First, it seems *not* predominant -- a google is showing 'killing' at 600K hits as the more so, and the death and murder roughly ~tied~ tied at 400K hits. Second, 'murder' is more narrow in meaning and commonly killing with malice, so would not suit the whole topic. I think that the killing is suspected to be a murder should be mentioned -- but stated as one view and not put made a category tag and not given the impression of being the main one or answer -- remain clear that the death is undetermined to keep the article about all the items and WP:INTEGRITY to a main point that this sory has been and still is all over the map. Markbassett ( talk) 01:18, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
Do not use "murder" in a title: Say "death". "Murder" is a legal term of art, and its definition is very precise. Also, it is the action of the perpetrator, the victim is dead, no matter how it happens. Unless there is a convicted perpetrator, we are, in a sense, declaring a legal status that does not exist. Montanabw (talk) 22:06, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Death as intrinsically both neutral and accurate. Where there is a dispute, I tend to come down on the "least offensive" wording as being best. This applies also to categorizations. I also would point out that the choice of words does affect known "living persons" and that WP:BLP applies here in that regard. Collect ( talk) 15:26, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Note (for closing administrator and/or others): Some votes, or sort of votes, have been made below. This includes opinions on the use of categories. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
And I also note that editors stating "use death" or similar (immediately above and BarrelProof below me) is not an answer as to whether or not use of murder in the article's text, or use of murder categories in the article, is against the WP:NPOV policy. This RfC is supposed to be about what our policy actually supports. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 19:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
"Death", not "murder" (except as a theory). Murder is a legal term that describes a specific criminal act and state of mind. There are several plausible explanations for this child's death that do not fit within the definition of murder. Accidental killing is one category of such explanations, but not the only one. For example, the killing could have been intentional but not culpable due to insanity, reduced mental capacity, impairment, lack of intent to kill, childhood lack of understanding, etc. (see, e.g., Mary Bell, a child who intentionally killed two people but was not considered guilty of murder). No one has been convicted of murder in this case, and we are here to provide information, not to jump to conclusions. — BarrelProof ( talk) 22:37, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
No - of course it's not against WP:NPOV to use the term murder, it's bad enough this article's title was changed from murder to death for absolutely no good reason, give it a rest already, this is getting ridiculous, follow what the realiable sources are reporting and stick to our policies and guidelines. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
No, using the word murder does not violate WP:NPOV (or WP:BLP, as some have suggested). A vast number of reliable sources use that term, so it's a bit farfetched to suggest that our using it within the article, whether in the body text or for categorization purposes, constitutes a violation of a core policy. Having said that, I would suggest that the word—in a formal, legal context—does generally imply a particular type of homicide: one where there is intent to kill, and possibly also one where such an intent is possible. Therefore, until formal adjudication of the case has run its course (if it ever does), it would be less than optimal for the article to appear to draw any conclusions about intent, so I'd avoid using the word murder except when quoting a source or explicitly discussing what one or more sources say. Assigning the article to categories containing the word doesn't strike me as a problem; categories are navigation aids that exist primarily for the convenience of the reader, and anyone who reads too much into a Wikipedia category is overthinking it. Rivertorch FIRE WATER 09:00, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
As I mentioned in the above section where I opened an RfC, I think this narrows the discussion from what is in the RfC to just an NPOV discussion. Saying that all people that object to the use of the word "murder" is because it's a NPOV issue is not correct. Well, it's self-explanatory above, I just would like to ensure that we have a thorough discussion and get this resolved.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 02:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Snow Rise Okay, your points about why we don't have to worry about using the correct term make sense. One thought about that, though, death absolutely applies here. Using murder is limiting unless there is an overwhelming use of the word "murder" in the sources.
One thought about that, though, death absolutely applies here.
Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sourcesand
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.- Basically, it's saying don't come to conclusions that aren't supported by the sources. If the majority of the sources do not say that it is murder, calling it murder, seems to me to be WP:OR / WP:SYNTH (I just remembered having read it in the WP:OR page, I didn't remember the section.)-- CaroleHenson (talk) 07:27, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Neutral phrasing and consistent with other WP articles with facts still amgibuous, e.g. Disappearance of Natalee Holloway, etc, with which I wholeheartedly agree. In that case, though, there hasn't been a body found so there has been no one to weigh in, like those who conducted JonBenet's autopsy that they believed it was murder. Are you saying that this article should not mention the word murder within the body of the article?
Markbassett, I do not understand your argument. I repeat: My issue is that we have editors arguing that it is a WP:NPOV violation to use the word murder and/or murder categories in the article. My argument is that it is not against that policy since that policy is about giving more weight to what the majority of sources state and less weight to what the minority of sources state. When it comes to the cause of this girl's death, it is usually referred to as a murder. It is not usually called "an accident" or similar. And I reiterate that a death can be accidental and still be legally categorized as a murder. Editors have clearly pointed to Felony murder rule (Colorado). Even though the police felt that one of the Ramseys accidentally killed their daughter, it was still decided that they should be charged with being accessories to first-degree murder. Even though John Mark Karr said he killed the girl by accident, he was arrested and charged with first-degree murder and the grand jury categorized it as murder. "Death" is not really the cause; it is the state of the person. She is dead. Of course the word death is going to be used in conjunction with murder or even more so than murder since she is, after all, dead. Also see what Snow Rise stated to you above.
Snow Rise, my main issue is with people misusing the WP:NPOV policy at this article. And it's for the reasons you've mentioned. To insist that we cannot use the word murder or murder categories in the article is what I am challenging. I asked S Marshall to weigh in because he, like you, is a policy-driven editor and understands our policies very well. Despite this, even he is perplexed by this topic. The complexity of this issue is why I think that more policy-driven editors should weigh in. Pinging Masem, Alexbrn, Johnuniq, The Four Deuces, BullRangifer, TheRedPenOfDoom (who hasn't edited in days), NorthBySouthBaranof, Rubbish computer, Collect, NinjaRobotPirate, Betty Logan, Tenebrae, Fyddlestix, Erik, Ian.thomson, and Staszek Lem. With perhaps the exception Rubbish computer, who I have seen reword articles to be more neutral, each of these editors have been in heavy WP:NPOV disputes, and I haven't always agreed with them, which is why I think it's okay for me to ping them to this issue. If any of you can think of others to ping, please do. Disclosure note: Betty Logan, Johnuniq and I have usually been in agreement, and I don't remember vocalizing any disagreement with Fyddlestix.
Montanabw, the way I feel about this issue is basically what I just stated to Markbassett and Snow Rise above. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 08:37, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
The term "murder" should generally be avoided. Homicides can be committed by persons incapable of forming an intention, due to age or insanity, there are cases that are manslaughter or criminal negligence, and there are even defenses for homicide, in none of these cases is it murder. I see no problem however with putting the article into a murder category, since inclusion in a category does not necessarily mean it fits the definition, just that it would be of interest to readers on the subject. TFD ( talk) 20:02, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks again, Snow Rise. And, for the record, I am female. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 18:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
There seem to be three areas that could be affected by this discussion: the title, the verbiage in the body of the article and categorization. If I am understanding correctly, no one is pushing to change the title of the article at this time. And, I like that categorization is being made it's own discussion.
For content, our choices are: 1) don't use murder at all, 2) use both murder and death/killing/etc. in the article, and 3) use murder throughout. It seems to me that #1 and #3 are POV and OR issues, because some sources called it "murder" and some sources don't mention "murder" at all. (From the audit that I started in my sandbox, which I am happy to finish if that's helpful. It's not going to change the fact that some use the term and some don't, just the percentage that it's used).
Suggestion / question: Wouldn't the issues of NPOV and OR be resolved if we made sure that when death/killing/the case or murder is used in the article, it's consistent with the word or meaning used in the source?— CaroleHenson (talk) 07:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
As noted at the start of the RfC, this RfC was started because an editor insisted that we cannot use the term murder in the article or murder categories in the article because it's against the WP:NPOV policy. I and others have argued why this view is wrong. Those two aspects have been the issue of this RfC. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 18:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
My view aligns with Rivertorch's view. See here and here for a comparison. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:59, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Thoughts? Snow let's rap 06:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I've just read the article for the first time, and there's no timeline. I get the history of the family, when the police were called, when she was found, and the theories. What did she do the day she was killed? Where did her parents think she was before they realized she was missing? What was she wearing? What was Burke doing that day? Did the contaminated scene have any repercussions to the Boulder PD? There's basically details about everything but the crime itself. GreaseballNYC ( talk) 03:31, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | This
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Death of JonBenét Ramsey has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add www.webbsleuths.org to your list of sources. I own that page and have been working to fill it with information. As a peripheral character in the case, I have done a lot of work on this case, helped with many documentaries and news reports and hope you will find the source worth listing.
Recently a GoFundme campaign was started to help pay for DNA tests that might help solve this crime. If you watched the anniversary specials it was revealed there IS good DNA available in this case (GSLD99176817) and Boulder LE said they would be doing more tests. But tests take money and some private investigators know Boulder doesn't have the funds - - so this account was set up to help pay those costs - and to set up a reward fund. The URL for that is https://www.gofundme.com/reward-for-jonbenets-killer. Jameson245 ( talk) 18:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC) Jameson245 ( talk) 18:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
BDD, regarding this edit you made, is there not an exception? Those categories are very relevant to this article. The reason those categories were included is because this article used to be titled JonBenét Ramsey. It was then moved to Murder of JonBenét Ramsey. And then to Death of JonBenét Ramsey. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 20:31, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Its extremely important that JonBenét is shown as what she really was: a six year old girl. The profile picture on this page makes her look like a 30 year old woman and a sex object. It would be more respectful and genuine if you use a picture of her without makeup.
Sincerely, A concerned murderino
SeptimusWho ( talk) 03:43, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
...to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments. In this case, "irrelevant arguments" would certainly include any that did not address the request:
Is use of murder ... against the WP:NPOV policy?In that regard, there is a consensus that use of the term "murder" does not violate NPOV. This is closed on that limited question and that question only. This is not a judgment or reflection on what the proper use of the term is, nor on what is the correct name of the article, nor on any previously- or even future-proposed page moves. ( non-admin closure) Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
This RfC is an extension of the Talk:Death of JonBenét Ramsey#I have removed "Murder" references discussion on the talk page, which is an extension of a recent move discussion. One view is that use of the word murder within the article is against the WP:NPOV policy since "the result of the Request to Move was that this article should be called 'Death of..' not 'Murder of...' because the theory that JonBenét was murdered, while plausible, is not the only plausible theory accepted by reliable sources. There is a substantial body of respectable thought that she was the victim of an accidental killing." Because of this view, it is argued that we also cannot use murder categories in the article. The other view is that the rationale for moving the article is flawed because the WP:NPOV policy, especially its WP:Due weight section, is about giving most of our weight to what the majority of reliable sources state. The vast majority of reliable sources call JonBenét Ramsey's death a murder. Therefore, stating that she was murdered and/or using "murder" categories is not a violation of the WP:NPOV policy. Furthermore, as has been noted before, murder is not always intentional.
I will alert related WikiProjects to this RfC, editors at
Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view,
Wikipedia talk:Article titles and
Wikipedia talk:Verifiability, and editors at
WP:Village pump (policy)
WP:Village pump (miscellaneous) (Village pump (policy) is not for dispute issues.)
Flyer22 Reborn (
talk) 01:40, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
No. It's one thing to suggest that we avoid the word murder. It's another thing to use one of our core policies, the WP:NPOV policy, to shape the article in a way that the core policy does not at all support. The WP:NPOV policy does not support us avoiding the word murder or the removal of the following important murder categories: Category:1996 murders in the United States, Category:Murdered American children, Category:People murdered in Colorado and Category:Unsolved murders in the United States. Also see my commentary in the Discussion section below. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:39, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
CommentYes. I believe that use of the word murder excludes manslaughter and it means disregarding source content that does not support a murder theory (and I mean this broadly beyond a family member) - and giving
WP:UNDUE weight to the murder theory, since there is no conviction.--
CaroleHenson
(talk) 04:09, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
the survey is not about whether or not we should use "murder" in the title. It's about whether or not using the term murder or murder categories anywhere in the article is against the WP:NPOV policy. My argument is obviously that it's not against the WP:NPOV policy.said to Montanabw by Flyer22Reborn on 08:37, 24 December 2016, I don't consider it a NPOV issue to use "murder" in the article the way it is now and I don't have a problem with the categorization of murder, as I said below. My issue is greater use of the word murder and renaming the article to "Murder of" JBR, because I think that would be undue weight based upon the sources.--— CaroleHenson (talk) 18:56, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
No - It's a nuanced case, I'll grant, but ultimately I feel WP:WEIGHT must control here, certainly above the alternative here, which essentially is a kind of WP:OR (applying deductive reasoning to the facts to decide what the appropriate terminology "must" be, rather than just going with the language employed by the strong majority of the sources). I understand what Carole is arguing here, but a number of factors discount it as the policy-correct approach. First, we are not talking about applying the correct legal term; we're an encyclopedia, not a jury--we use the language of our sources and do not engage in an OR analysis of whether it is precise, meant to impute a certain threshold of guilt,or just simple common parlance. Second, states which use common law principles of murder vary considerably on where they place the divide between murder or manslaughter (or whether they have one at all) and the legal distinctions can be quite complex and differential between jurisdiction, meaning we'd be engaging in yet more OR if we tried to decide the "right" term rather than the term used by our sources (remember, Wikipedia's standard is verifiability, not truth); as just one example of an uncountable number of variations--depending on the facts, even if the crime met the conditions for manslaughter in Colorado, it could still be felony murder. Anyway, this is all really beside the point and added to demonstrate exactly why Wikipedia had adopted a standard of keeping our own analysis of the facts out of the equation. Insofar as our reliable sources clearly label the death a murder in general, there's really no question here: we have to use that terminology. WP:UNDUE is not about comparing the variety of theories, it's strictly about looking at the WP:WEIGHT of our sources, and the language they employ. Snow let's rap 05:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes - sort of - I didn't see a clear question put for RFC, but the argument for 'murder' as higher weight seems flawed in 2 ways. First, it seems *not* predominant -- a google is showing 'killing' at 600K hits as the more so, and the death and murder roughly ~tied~ tied at 400K hits. Second, 'murder' is more narrow in meaning and commonly killing with malice, so would not suit the whole topic. I think that the killing is suspected to be a murder should be mentioned -- but stated as one view and not put made a category tag and not given the impression of being the main one or answer -- remain clear that the death is undetermined to keep the article about all the items and WP:INTEGRITY to a main point that this sory has been and still is all over the map. Markbassett ( talk) 01:18, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
Do not use "murder" in a title: Say "death". "Murder" is a legal term of art, and its definition is very precise. Also, it is the action of the perpetrator, the victim is dead, no matter how it happens. Unless there is a convicted perpetrator, we are, in a sense, declaring a legal status that does not exist. Montanabw (talk) 22:06, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Death as intrinsically both neutral and accurate. Where there is a dispute, I tend to come down on the "least offensive" wording as being best. This applies also to categorizations. I also would point out that the choice of words does affect known "living persons" and that WP:BLP applies here in that regard. Collect ( talk) 15:26, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Note (for closing administrator and/or others): Some votes, or sort of votes, have been made below. This includes opinions on the use of categories. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
And I also note that editors stating "use death" or similar (immediately above and BarrelProof below me) is not an answer as to whether or not use of murder in the article's text, or use of murder categories in the article, is against the WP:NPOV policy. This RfC is supposed to be about what our policy actually supports. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 19:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
"Death", not "murder" (except as a theory). Murder is a legal term that describes a specific criminal act and state of mind. There are several plausible explanations for this child's death that do not fit within the definition of murder. Accidental killing is one category of such explanations, but not the only one. For example, the killing could have been intentional but not culpable due to insanity, reduced mental capacity, impairment, lack of intent to kill, childhood lack of understanding, etc. (see, e.g., Mary Bell, a child who intentionally killed two people but was not considered guilty of murder). No one has been convicted of murder in this case, and we are here to provide information, not to jump to conclusions. — BarrelProof ( talk) 22:37, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
No - of course it's not against WP:NPOV to use the term murder, it's bad enough this article's title was changed from murder to death for absolutely no good reason, give it a rest already, this is getting ridiculous, follow what the realiable sources are reporting and stick to our policies and guidelines. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
No, using the word murder does not violate WP:NPOV (or WP:BLP, as some have suggested). A vast number of reliable sources use that term, so it's a bit farfetched to suggest that our using it within the article, whether in the body text or for categorization purposes, constitutes a violation of a core policy. Having said that, I would suggest that the word—in a formal, legal context—does generally imply a particular type of homicide: one where there is intent to kill, and possibly also one where such an intent is possible. Therefore, until formal adjudication of the case has run its course (if it ever does), it would be less than optimal for the article to appear to draw any conclusions about intent, so I'd avoid using the word murder except when quoting a source or explicitly discussing what one or more sources say. Assigning the article to categories containing the word doesn't strike me as a problem; categories are navigation aids that exist primarily for the convenience of the reader, and anyone who reads too much into a Wikipedia category is overthinking it. Rivertorch FIRE WATER 09:00, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
As I mentioned in the above section where I opened an RfC, I think this narrows the discussion from what is in the RfC to just an NPOV discussion. Saying that all people that object to the use of the word "murder" is because it's a NPOV issue is not correct. Well, it's self-explanatory above, I just would like to ensure that we have a thorough discussion and get this resolved.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 02:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Snow Rise Okay, your points about why we don't have to worry about using the correct term make sense. One thought about that, though, death absolutely applies here. Using murder is limiting unless there is an overwhelming use of the word "murder" in the sources.
One thought about that, though, death absolutely applies here.
Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sourcesand
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.- Basically, it's saying don't come to conclusions that aren't supported by the sources. If the majority of the sources do not say that it is murder, calling it murder, seems to me to be WP:OR / WP:SYNTH (I just remembered having read it in the WP:OR page, I didn't remember the section.)-- CaroleHenson (talk) 07:27, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Neutral phrasing and consistent with other WP articles with facts still amgibuous, e.g. Disappearance of Natalee Holloway, etc, with which I wholeheartedly agree. In that case, though, there hasn't been a body found so there has been no one to weigh in, like those who conducted JonBenet's autopsy that they believed it was murder. Are you saying that this article should not mention the word murder within the body of the article?
Markbassett, I do not understand your argument. I repeat: My issue is that we have editors arguing that it is a WP:NPOV violation to use the word murder and/or murder categories in the article. My argument is that it is not against that policy since that policy is about giving more weight to what the majority of sources state and less weight to what the minority of sources state. When it comes to the cause of this girl's death, it is usually referred to as a murder. It is not usually called "an accident" or similar. And I reiterate that a death can be accidental and still be legally categorized as a murder. Editors have clearly pointed to Felony murder rule (Colorado). Even though the police felt that one of the Ramseys accidentally killed their daughter, it was still decided that they should be charged with being accessories to first-degree murder. Even though John Mark Karr said he killed the girl by accident, he was arrested and charged with first-degree murder and the grand jury categorized it as murder. "Death" is not really the cause; it is the state of the person. She is dead. Of course the word death is going to be used in conjunction with murder or even more so than murder since she is, after all, dead. Also see what Snow Rise stated to you above.
Snow Rise, my main issue is with people misusing the WP:NPOV policy at this article. And it's for the reasons you've mentioned. To insist that we cannot use the word murder or murder categories in the article is what I am challenging. I asked S Marshall to weigh in because he, like you, is a policy-driven editor and understands our policies very well. Despite this, even he is perplexed by this topic. The complexity of this issue is why I think that more policy-driven editors should weigh in. Pinging Masem, Alexbrn, Johnuniq, The Four Deuces, BullRangifer, TheRedPenOfDoom (who hasn't edited in days), NorthBySouthBaranof, Rubbish computer, Collect, NinjaRobotPirate, Betty Logan, Tenebrae, Fyddlestix, Erik, Ian.thomson, and Staszek Lem. With perhaps the exception Rubbish computer, who I have seen reword articles to be more neutral, each of these editors have been in heavy WP:NPOV disputes, and I haven't always agreed with them, which is why I think it's okay for me to ping them to this issue. If any of you can think of others to ping, please do. Disclosure note: Betty Logan, Johnuniq and I have usually been in agreement, and I don't remember vocalizing any disagreement with Fyddlestix.
Montanabw, the way I feel about this issue is basically what I just stated to Markbassett and Snow Rise above. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 08:37, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
The term "murder" should generally be avoided. Homicides can be committed by persons incapable of forming an intention, due to age or insanity, there are cases that are manslaughter or criminal negligence, and there are even defenses for homicide, in none of these cases is it murder. I see no problem however with putting the article into a murder category, since inclusion in a category does not necessarily mean it fits the definition, just that it would be of interest to readers on the subject. TFD ( talk) 20:02, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks again, Snow Rise. And, for the record, I am female. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 18:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
There seem to be three areas that could be affected by this discussion: the title, the verbiage in the body of the article and categorization. If I am understanding correctly, no one is pushing to change the title of the article at this time. And, I like that categorization is being made it's own discussion.
For content, our choices are: 1) don't use murder at all, 2) use both murder and death/killing/etc. in the article, and 3) use murder throughout. It seems to me that #1 and #3 are POV and OR issues, because some sources called it "murder" and some sources don't mention "murder" at all. (From the audit that I started in my sandbox, which I am happy to finish if that's helpful. It's not going to change the fact that some use the term and some don't, just the percentage that it's used).
Suggestion / question: Wouldn't the issues of NPOV and OR be resolved if we made sure that when death/killing/the case or murder is used in the article, it's consistent with the word or meaning used in the source?— CaroleHenson (talk) 07:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
As noted at the start of the RfC, this RfC was started because an editor insisted that we cannot use the term murder in the article or murder categories in the article because it's against the WP:NPOV policy. I and others have argued why this view is wrong. Those two aspects have been the issue of this RfC. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 18:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
My view aligns with Rivertorch's view. See here and here for a comparison. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:59, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Thoughts? Snow let's rap 06:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I've just read the article for the first time, and there's no timeline. I get the history of the family, when the police were called, when she was found, and the theories. What did she do the day she was killed? Where did her parents think she was before they realized she was missing? What was she wearing? What was Burke doing that day? Did the contaminated scene have any repercussions to the Boulder PD? There's basically details about everything but the crime itself. GreaseballNYC ( talk) 03:31, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
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Please add www.webbsleuths.org to your list of sources. I own that page and have been working to fill it with information. As a peripheral character in the case, I have done a lot of work on this case, helped with many documentaries and news reports and hope you will find the source worth listing.
Recently a GoFundme campaign was started to help pay for DNA tests that might help solve this crime. If you watched the anniversary specials it was revealed there IS good DNA available in this case (GSLD99176817) and Boulder LE said they would be doing more tests. But tests take money and some private investigators know Boulder doesn't have the funds - - so this account was set up to help pay those costs - and to set up a reward fund. The URL for that is https://www.gofundme.com/reward-for-jonbenets-killer. Jameson245 ( talk) 18:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC) Jameson245 ( talk) 18:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
BDD, regarding this edit you made, is there not an exception? Those categories are very relevant to this article. The reason those categories were included is because this article used to be titled JonBenét Ramsey. It was then moved to Murder of JonBenét Ramsey. And then to Death of JonBenét Ramsey. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 20:31, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Its extremely important that JonBenét is shown as what she really was: a six year old girl. The profile picture on this page makes her look like a 30 year old woman and a sex object. It would be more respectful and genuine if you use a picture of her without makeup.
Sincerely, A concerned murderino
SeptimusWho ( talk) 03:43, 30 July 2017 (UTC)