This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 08:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page to encourage discussion and compromise. Please attempt to find a consensus that will end the disruptive edit-warring and allow productive editing to continue. When you feel you have reached that point, you can ask for the page to be unprotected by leaving a message on my Talk Page or at WP:RPP.
-- Richard 00:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have looked at the edits provided on WP:ANI by User:Limegreen and have formed an opinion. Of course, it is not the job of an admin to resolve content disputes so please take what follows as just the opinion of an uninvolved outsider. The fact that I am an admin gives me no extra clout in a content dispute. I readily admit that I know nothing about yachting so take what follows with the appropriate grains of salt.
Lgask wrote:
It is my impression that Lgask is too harsh on Dean Barker. I think it is reasonable to say that Barker has had "mixed success". That's pretty charitable considering he's only won twice out of twelve competitions. On the other hand, one has to ask what the records of other skippers are. Is it typical for other America's Cup skippers to have significantly better win/loss ratios?
Reading the source provided by Lgask, it appears that Barker may have been outmanoeuvered by Alinghi but the article does not offer the same harsh criticism that Lgask does. Reading the article, it looks like it was a fairly even competition (Barker even nailed the Swiss with the "sambuka" maneuver) that the Swiss happened to win, perhaps through superior sailing, perhaps through better luck. There's no indication in the article that Barker was incompetent or "out of his league".
Lgask wrote:
It seems reasonable to mention that TNZ lost to Alinghi by 5-2. I think more sources are needed to establish that Barker was "not at the top level of international yachtsmen". Right now, it looks like the personal opinion of Lgask and thus qualifies as unacceptable OR. If you want to criticize someone, put it in the mouth of a reliable source.
Lgask wrote:
Well, it's sourced and it's not really libellous. The problem, IMO, is that it's unencyclopedic petty trash-talking. Yes, Barker was a rich kid. Perhaps other America's Cup skippers are too? This isn't the sports page or a gossip column. I don't see what this tidbit of juicy gossip-mongering adds to the article. I would take it out.
Hope that helps.
-- Richard 00:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
LGask: Barkers has won 2 out of 12 races at Americas cup events. Surely the term 'mixed success' is appropriate. He is most certainly not 'successful'. 'Mixed success' simply means that although he did not reclaim the trophy for NZ, he did put in, according to some anyway, a creditable performance (this is not my own opinion, but I have moderated my language in deference to Boatman).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgask ( talk • contribs)
I suggest we retain Hamish Pepper's comment. Barkers background is pertinent to understanding what he has achieved thusfar. The quote is from an impeccable source - the New Zealand Herald - certainly not a tabloid paper. The NZ Herald is NZs largest circulation daily newspaper. The Herald included the quote in its own article about Barker. Obviously the author of the original Herlad article felt mentioning the background of Barker and obtaining the opinion of his childhood friend and fellow yachtsman was important in understanding Barker the man. Nothing 'gossipy' about the quote whatsoever.
The article as it currently stands is fair to Barker, accurately describes events in his life and informs the reader as to some of the reasons for Barker's success as a sailor.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgask ( talk • contribs)
I have removed "Barker clearly showed he was not at the top level of international yachtsmen" as being arguably a violation of WP:BLP. I don't think it really is a violation of WP:BLP. Really, the problem is that, without a reliable source, it is original research. I think the text could be re-inserted if it was cited to a reliable source. The other point would be to maintain a NPOV stance.
It would be good if we could collect quotes from multiple sources characterizing Barker's skill as a yachtsman.
-- Richard 18:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't access the page added to reference the "Barker was clearly outmanoeuvred by the Swiss boat in all of the five races won by Alinghi", but it doesn't seem to match the race descriptions at 2007 America's Cup. Also, I think it is interesting to contrast Lgask's additions to the lead section with the description of Barker's America's Cup record in the America's Cup section.-- Limegreen 22:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, there have been complaints by User:Proabivouac and User:John254 about my having protected the "wrong" version of the page, leaving in what they claim are WP:BLP violations. Believe me, if I thought that there were true WP:BLP violations, I would have corrected those first before protecting the page.
However, I'm not interested in getting into a long dispute about whether or not the text in question is a WP:BLP violation or just, as I see it, unencyclopedic text that smacks of original research. Some of it appears to be unbalanced minority POV (i.e. not necessarily false, just undue weight). In my opinion, the advisability and encyclopedicity of the text is marginal and debatable but I'm not willing to get into a dispute to try and defend it.
I am deleting the text in question on the premise that it can always be re-added if a consensus forms to re-insert it and if adequate sourcing is found.
-- Richard 04:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 08:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page to encourage discussion and compromise. Please attempt to find a consensus that will end the disruptive edit-warring and allow productive editing to continue. When you feel you have reached that point, you can ask for the page to be unprotected by leaving a message on my Talk Page or at WP:RPP.
-- Richard 00:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have looked at the edits provided on WP:ANI by User:Limegreen and have formed an opinion. Of course, it is not the job of an admin to resolve content disputes so please take what follows as just the opinion of an uninvolved outsider. The fact that I am an admin gives me no extra clout in a content dispute. I readily admit that I know nothing about yachting so take what follows with the appropriate grains of salt.
Lgask wrote:
It is my impression that Lgask is too harsh on Dean Barker. I think it is reasonable to say that Barker has had "mixed success". That's pretty charitable considering he's only won twice out of twelve competitions. On the other hand, one has to ask what the records of other skippers are. Is it typical for other America's Cup skippers to have significantly better win/loss ratios?
Reading the source provided by Lgask, it appears that Barker may have been outmanoeuvered by Alinghi but the article does not offer the same harsh criticism that Lgask does. Reading the article, it looks like it was a fairly even competition (Barker even nailed the Swiss with the "sambuka" maneuver) that the Swiss happened to win, perhaps through superior sailing, perhaps through better luck. There's no indication in the article that Barker was incompetent or "out of his league".
Lgask wrote:
It seems reasonable to mention that TNZ lost to Alinghi by 5-2. I think more sources are needed to establish that Barker was "not at the top level of international yachtsmen". Right now, it looks like the personal opinion of Lgask and thus qualifies as unacceptable OR. If you want to criticize someone, put it in the mouth of a reliable source.
Lgask wrote:
Well, it's sourced and it's not really libellous. The problem, IMO, is that it's unencyclopedic petty trash-talking. Yes, Barker was a rich kid. Perhaps other America's Cup skippers are too? This isn't the sports page or a gossip column. I don't see what this tidbit of juicy gossip-mongering adds to the article. I would take it out.
Hope that helps.
-- Richard 00:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
LGask: Barkers has won 2 out of 12 races at Americas cup events. Surely the term 'mixed success' is appropriate. He is most certainly not 'successful'. 'Mixed success' simply means that although he did not reclaim the trophy for NZ, he did put in, according to some anyway, a creditable performance (this is not my own opinion, but I have moderated my language in deference to Boatman).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgask ( talk • contribs)
I suggest we retain Hamish Pepper's comment. Barkers background is pertinent to understanding what he has achieved thusfar. The quote is from an impeccable source - the New Zealand Herald - certainly not a tabloid paper. The NZ Herald is NZs largest circulation daily newspaper. The Herald included the quote in its own article about Barker. Obviously the author of the original Herlad article felt mentioning the background of Barker and obtaining the opinion of his childhood friend and fellow yachtsman was important in understanding Barker the man. Nothing 'gossipy' about the quote whatsoever.
The article as it currently stands is fair to Barker, accurately describes events in his life and informs the reader as to some of the reasons for Barker's success as a sailor.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgask ( talk • contribs)
I have removed "Barker clearly showed he was not at the top level of international yachtsmen" as being arguably a violation of WP:BLP. I don't think it really is a violation of WP:BLP. Really, the problem is that, without a reliable source, it is original research. I think the text could be re-inserted if it was cited to a reliable source. The other point would be to maintain a NPOV stance.
It would be good if we could collect quotes from multiple sources characterizing Barker's skill as a yachtsman.
-- Richard 18:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't access the page added to reference the "Barker was clearly outmanoeuvred by the Swiss boat in all of the five races won by Alinghi", but it doesn't seem to match the race descriptions at 2007 America's Cup. Also, I think it is interesting to contrast Lgask's additions to the lead section with the description of Barker's America's Cup record in the America's Cup section.-- Limegreen 22:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, there have been complaints by User:Proabivouac and User:John254 about my having protected the "wrong" version of the page, leaving in what they claim are WP:BLP violations. Believe me, if I thought that there were true WP:BLP violations, I would have corrected those first before protecting the page.
However, I'm not interested in getting into a long dispute about whether or not the text in question is a WP:BLP violation or just, as I see it, unencyclopedic text that smacks of original research. Some of it appears to be unbalanced minority POV (i.e. not necessarily false, just undue weight). In my opinion, the advisability and encyclopedicity of the text is marginal and debatable but I'm not willing to get into a dispute to try and defend it.
I am deleting the text in question on the premise that it can always be re-added if a consensus forms to re-insert it and if adequate sourcing is found.
-- Richard 04:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Dean Barker (sailor). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:57, 10 July 2017 (UTC)