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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
As there is some question as to whether the move is warranted, please discuss this particular case prior to moving. --
Samirधर्म02:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Support per above. I have just never seen any news or any press release to English medias of this school using the English equivalent. --
Deenoe03:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) in my opinion superceeds the "use English". It says to use the full name provided by the school itself, which is the French name. The school puts this name on Press Releases that are in english, adressed to English media...
Deenoe03:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I disagree. That was the purpose for
WP:EiC coming up with a definite rule about this -- I wanted to ensure someone didn't pull out the
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) argument which would result in us renaming all our French or Aboriginal school names; don't ignore or misjudge the hard work we've put into defining
WP:EiC. Just cause a generic rule or guideline exists elsewhere, the
WP:EiC-specific rules and guidelines we come up with should still apply to our schools. Believe it or not, the problem is partially because most of us have at least a rudimentary understanding of French. Example: would anyone ever attempt to rename
Quilchena Elementary School to
Land of Many Waters School? Absolutately not! Why are we even contemplating having a discussion and vote in this case??? Move this article back to the official name! --
Stephane Charette22:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Never said that the
WP:EiC French rule was not valid. If you read carefully I used it as an argument. My comment was about the School clause in the WP:Naming Convention. I definitly think that we should stick with the WP:EiC French clause. --
Deenoe22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
What I meant was that I disagree with where all the comments in this thread were leading, not that I disagree with your specific comment. The thread started by Usgnus saying "use WP:EiC naming conventions", the next comment was "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) superceeds that", followed by "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) in my opinion superceeds", etc... Use the most precise rules/guidelines that we have for dealing with this -- which in this case, brings us back to the first level comment saying "use
WP:EiC-described naming conventions." There was a reason why the
WP:EiC project was setup this way, and why these discussions took place and were documented...to try and prevent situations like this. Un francophone parmis tant d'autre,
Stephane Charette22:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I know that about the
WP:EiC. I am participant of the project. I think it's a great thing and I dont see why we shouldn't stick to those rules, considering the article is part of the project. Un autre francophone parmis tant d'autres, un francophone fier. --
Deenoe22:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. Please use common sense -- people who are looking up the school will look for the school by name -- not what the name would be if it were translated into English! This was discussed and decided at
WP:EiC. --
Stephane Charette21:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Discussion
Add any additional comments
I agree with the move to the French name. I go to this school, and we are French. The name is our PRIDE. We talk on the news about us, using the French name. Also, the Wiki Convention says
"Convention: school article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself. "
Comment. There are dozens of schools and school districts in Canada that use French for the article title. Are we going to move them all? We really need to re-open the discussion over at
WT:EiC. --
Usgnus03:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I don't believe there is any debate to re-open. Those schools are french. They have a French Name. It's the OFFICIAL name... All the french schools I hear about on the news, they use the french name. It's like if we would say Pathetic Symphony instead of "La symphonie pathétique". They choosed that name.
Actually, WP conventions are not the same as real-world conventions. For example, in WP, the quotation marks always go inside the closing period in the sentence, unless the period is part of the quotation. Naming is covered by guidelines and not policy, so the names of these schools will be determined by consensus, not the official name necessarily. See
University of Montreal. --
Usgnus04:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
University of Montreal is different. The establishement itself uses the name University of Montreal very often. But meh, let the wikipedians decide. However, there is a point I would like to bring up. There is a school, in Sudbury, Ontario which is in the same province than the school that we are debating on right now, that is called La Salle Secondary School. I do not wish to have confusions with the two names considering they are both in Ontario so I think that's another reason why we should go with the French official name. --
Deenoe05:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
In regard to Usgnus's comment about the name most commonly used, a Google search of pages only from Canada yields this result: "De La Salle Secondary School", 7 hits.
[1] "École secondaire publique De La Salle", English language results only, 177 hits.
[2].
Kurieeto16:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Furthermore,
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) states, "If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.". As demonstrated by the Google search presented above, the native spelling is clearly more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guidelines support this move.
Kurieeto17:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
With all points shown, I think we could clearly put the French name of the school as the title of the article, and on the first line of the article replace École secondaire publique De La Salle by École secondaire publique De La Salle (De La Salle secondary school). --
Deenoe17:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I disagree with even trying to guess as to what the English translation would be. Unless the school or the school board actually ever use the name De La Salle secondary school (and if they ever did, they would probably use De La Salle Secondary School), it isn't our place to guess. Only mention it and include it if it is used. --
Stephane Charette22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
It's been never used by the school. Like the Google test shows... English Results on De La Salle Secondary School gives 7 hits, the English results with the French name are 177 hits. --
Deenoe22:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is related to WikiProject Schools, a collaborative effort to write quality articles about schools around the world. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
project page.SchoolsWikipedia:WikiProject SchoolsTemplate:WikiProject Schoolsschool articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ottawa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Ottawa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OttawaWikipedia:WikiProject OttawaTemplate:WikiProject OttawaOttawa articles
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
As there is some question as to whether the move is warranted, please discuss this particular case prior to moving. --
Samirधर्म02:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Support per above. I have just never seen any news or any press release to English medias of this school using the English equivalent. --
Deenoe03:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) in my opinion superceeds the "use English". It says to use the full name provided by the school itself, which is the French name. The school puts this name on Press Releases that are in english, adressed to English media...
Deenoe03:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I disagree. That was the purpose for
WP:EiC coming up with a definite rule about this -- I wanted to ensure someone didn't pull out the
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) argument which would result in us renaming all our French or Aboriginal school names; don't ignore or misjudge the hard work we've put into defining
WP:EiC. Just cause a generic rule or guideline exists elsewhere, the
WP:EiC-specific rules and guidelines we come up with should still apply to our schools. Believe it or not, the problem is partially because most of us have at least a rudimentary understanding of French. Example: would anyone ever attempt to rename
Quilchena Elementary School to
Land of Many Waters School? Absolutately not! Why are we even contemplating having a discussion and vote in this case??? Move this article back to the official name! --
Stephane Charette22:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Never said that the
WP:EiC French rule was not valid. If you read carefully I used it as an argument. My comment was about the School clause in the WP:Naming Convention. I definitly think that we should stick with the WP:EiC French clause. --
Deenoe22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
What I meant was that I disagree with where all the comments in this thread were leading, not that I disagree with your specific comment. The thread started by Usgnus saying "use WP:EiC naming conventions", the next comment was "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) superceeds that", followed by "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) in my opinion superceeds", etc... Use the most precise rules/guidelines that we have for dealing with this -- which in this case, brings us back to the first level comment saying "use
WP:EiC-described naming conventions." There was a reason why the
WP:EiC project was setup this way, and why these discussions took place and were documented...to try and prevent situations like this. Un francophone parmis tant d'autre,
Stephane Charette22:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I know that about the
WP:EiC. I am participant of the project. I think it's a great thing and I dont see why we shouldn't stick to those rules, considering the article is part of the project. Un autre francophone parmis tant d'autres, un francophone fier. --
Deenoe22:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. Please use common sense -- people who are looking up the school will look for the school by name -- not what the name would be if it were translated into English! This was discussed and decided at
WP:EiC. --
Stephane Charette21:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Discussion
Add any additional comments
I agree with the move to the French name. I go to this school, and we are French. The name is our PRIDE. We talk on the news about us, using the French name. Also, the Wiki Convention says
"Convention: school article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself. "
Comment. There are dozens of schools and school districts in Canada that use French for the article title. Are we going to move them all? We really need to re-open the discussion over at
WT:EiC. --
Usgnus03:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I don't believe there is any debate to re-open. Those schools are french. They have a French Name. It's the OFFICIAL name... All the french schools I hear about on the news, they use the french name. It's like if we would say Pathetic Symphony instead of "La symphonie pathétique". They choosed that name.
Actually, WP conventions are not the same as real-world conventions. For example, in WP, the quotation marks always go inside the closing period in the sentence, unless the period is part of the quotation. Naming is covered by guidelines and not policy, so the names of these schools will be determined by consensus, not the official name necessarily. See
University of Montreal. --
Usgnus04:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
University of Montreal is different. The establishement itself uses the name University of Montreal very often. But meh, let the wikipedians decide. However, there is a point I would like to bring up. There is a school, in Sudbury, Ontario which is in the same province than the school that we are debating on right now, that is called La Salle Secondary School. I do not wish to have confusions with the two names considering they are both in Ontario so I think that's another reason why we should go with the French official name. --
Deenoe05:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
In regard to Usgnus's comment about the name most commonly used, a Google search of pages only from Canada yields this result: "De La Salle Secondary School", 7 hits.
[1] "École secondaire publique De La Salle", English language results only, 177 hits.
[2].
Kurieeto16:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Furthermore,
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) states, "If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.". As demonstrated by the Google search presented above, the native spelling is clearly more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guidelines support this move.
Kurieeto17:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
With all points shown, I think we could clearly put the French name of the school as the title of the article, and on the first line of the article replace École secondaire publique De La Salle by École secondaire publique De La Salle (De La Salle secondary school). --
Deenoe17:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I disagree with even trying to guess as to what the English translation would be. Unless the school or the school board actually ever use the name De La Salle secondary school (and if they ever did, they would probably use De La Salle Secondary School), it isn't our place to guess. Only mention it and include it if it is used. --
Stephane Charette22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
It's been never used by the school. Like the Google test shows... English Results on De La Salle Secondary School gives 7 hits, the English results with the French name are 177 hits. --
Deenoe22:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.