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De-satellization of the Socialist Republic of Romania article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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"Romania was one of the three countries of the Eastern Bloc which managed to shake off Soviet control, the others being Albania and Yugoslavia." - this claim has a source, however, it definitely isn't a universally accepted view. These kinds of minor "ruptures"/conflicts/deviations were not that rare in the socialist bloc (Hungary for example pursued some limited free market reforms, East Germany under Ulbricht showed stubborn independence etc.). The article exaggerates the differences. Potugin ( talk) 16:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Also, insulting won't get you anywhere. Also, please add year and publisher to your sources. Romania didn't have more independent policies, Romania was independent, for all intents and purposes. I felt that adding that source would be overkill, but I do also have a book that quite explicitly says that the rest of the world did not hold Moscow accountable for decisions made in Bucharest. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 18:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
@Transylvania1916 - you've been longer here as a registered user than me, so you should know basic policies and guidelines. The current title is simply not supported by sources. You can't just pick out a random phrase and start googling for whatever information you find to support your own thesis. Please suggest a decent title.
You are also unconstructive because you still reverted and removed the Chile-Romania relations passage I added.
That being said, I support a separate article on Romania's autonomy ambitions/deviations from the Soviet line, but you seem to be greatly exaggerating this. Also, if you want this article to be kept, rather than merged with the general article on
Romania-Russia relations with lots of details removed, please make it readable: Format it properly, add subheadings (e.g. diplomatic issues should be highlighted:
the official Great Soviet Encyclopedia of 1970s admitted these issues, despite emphasizing that Romania was a brotherly socialist nation. Right now your article is more of a cherrypicked collection of anecdotes than a serious encyclopedic article.
Potugin (
talk) 19:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
I believe this article is wrong, including its title.. An extraordinary claim that Romania achieved to shake off Soviet control the same way Yugoslavia and Albania did is based on a single source. Romania (unlike Yugoslavia or Albania) was a member of the Warsaw Pact, which was under total Soviet rule and control. This single fact dismisses the claim entirely. No, Romania was not like Yugoslavia or Albania, and it was not a split as far as I’m aware. I'm tagging and requesting a quotation of that single current source, and I would like to see more sources confirming that extraordinary claim. If none arrive, I'll ask for a merger (some information may still be saved) or deletion of this article. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 04:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
PS. I think you should strike or remove the portion of your comment where you write about the nature of my mentality, please.(thank you) Thanks -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 17:19, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I am currently remaking the article with the 5 sources listed above. Please do not interfere, so I can better keep track. At the end, I shall rename it to "Desatellization of Communist Romania", and use this new title in all Wikilink instances. Thanks. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 20:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Update: It is done. In the article, and all (I hope) redirects. Now that the existence of the article is no longer in dispute...hope it will only see improvements. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 19:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
There's a reason I came up with this article. As you can see on the Socialist Republic of Romania infobox, it has no "satellite state" tag. Judging by said article's talk page, it seems to have been an informal/unwritten consensus not to add that tag. But...I wanted it to make it written and formal. Not least because there are plenty of sources for this. I started with a paragraph on the Satellite state article. But then the paragraph grew so large, it practically took over the article! A brand new one was necessary. I simply went with a "split" to emulate Albania and Yuogslavia, as these were existing templates, unaware of the actual uniqueness of Romania's position. And it truly was unique: per the sources in the heading of this article, Romania was the only country to undergo desatellization and remain in the Warsaw Pact. I only resisted change until I could find an appropriate title, a term quoted by multiple RS. I simply needed a few days. But...the issue this article is supposed to treat still lingers. As long as we have here on the Wiki maps that simply portray Romania as yet another satellite like all its Warsaw Pact peers, the job is incomplete. What can be done to change these maps in order to reflect Romania's aforementioned unique position? Give Romania a different color, perhaps a lighter shade of the existing one, such as the image I chose for this article? Frankly, I am pessimistic. Lethargy? Complacency? I do not think we can get the authors of these maps, after all these years, to exact the changes needed for this newly-affirmed accuracy. Not to mention the years in which it had been ingrained in common knowledge that Romania (at least Romania under Nicolae) was a Soviet satellite, however wrong it may be. I am passionate about this because I used to think the same! Because I've been lied to! Always given the impression that the Warsaw Pact was just "Moscow & friends", and I had to intensely research Romania's case to realize just how much bunk BS this notion is! And I do fear, fear that my singular efforts are too little, too late to debunk the BS. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 08:16, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Biruitorul's suggestions were fine and the current title works. I'd suggest the following things now: restructuring, creating subsections for the "distancing"/"desatellization" efforts in various fields (you cannot really treat economy and diplomatic relations together). Definitely create a subsection concerning the foreign policy. The article already has some information, but more could be done (Romania's role as a mediator in the Israeli-Arab conflict). I'd be willing to join in provided that my edits don't get blindly reverted (obviously Romania's refusal to sever relations with Pinochet's Chile is relevant!). Potugin ( talk) 10:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
De-satellization of the Socialist Republic of Romania article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Romania was one of the three countries of the Eastern Bloc which managed to shake off Soviet control, the others being Albania and Yugoslavia." - this claim has a source, however, it definitely isn't a universally accepted view. These kinds of minor "ruptures"/conflicts/deviations were not that rare in the socialist bloc (Hungary for example pursued some limited free market reforms, East Germany under Ulbricht showed stubborn independence etc.). The article exaggerates the differences. Potugin ( talk) 16:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Also, insulting won't get you anywhere. Also, please add year and publisher to your sources. Romania didn't have more independent policies, Romania was independent, for all intents and purposes. I felt that adding that source would be overkill, but I do also have a book that quite explicitly says that the rest of the world did not hold Moscow accountable for decisions made in Bucharest. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 18:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
@Transylvania1916 - you've been longer here as a registered user than me, so you should know basic policies and guidelines. The current title is simply not supported by sources. You can't just pick out a random phrase and start googling for whatever information you find to support your own thesis. Please suggest a decent title.
You are also unconstructive because you still reverted and removed the Chile-Romania relations passage I added.
That being said, I support a separate article on Romania's autonomy ambitions/deviations from the Soviet line, but you seem to be greatly exaggerating this. Also, if you want this article to be kept, rather than merged with the general article on
Romania-Russia relations with lots of details removed, please make it readable: Format it properly, add subheadings (e.g. diplomatic issues should be highlighted:
the official Great Soviet Encyclopedia of 1970s admitted these issues, despite emphasizing that Romania was a brotherly socialist nation. Right now your article is more of a cherrypicked collection of anecdotes than a serious encyclopedic article.
Potugin (
talk) 19:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
I believe this article is wrong, including its title.. An extraordinary claim that Romania achieved to shake off Soviet control the same way Yugoslavia and Albania did is based on a single source. Romania (unlike Yugoslavia or Albania) was a member of the Warsaw Pact, which was under total Soviet rule and control. This single fact dismisses the claim entirely. No, Romania was not like Yugoslavia or Albania, and it was not a split as far as I’m aware. I'm tagging and requesting a quotation of that single current source, and I would like to see more sources confirming that extraordinary claim. If none arrive, I'll ask for a merger (some information may still be saved) or deletion of this article. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 04:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
PS. I think you should strike or remove the portion of your comment where you write about the nature of my mentality, please.(thank you) Thanks -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 17:19, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I am currently remaking the article with the 5 sources listed above. Please do not interfere, so I can better keep track. At the end, I shall rename it to "Desatellization of Communist Romania", and use this new title in all Wikilink instances. Thanks. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 20:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Update: It is done. In the article, and all (I hope) redirects. Now that the existence of the article is no longer in dispute...hope it will only see improvements. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 19:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
There's a reason I came up with this article. As you can see on the Socialist Republic of Romania infobox, it has no "satellite state" tag. Judging by said article's talk page, it seems to have been an informal/unwritten consensus not to add that tag. But...I wanted it to make it written and formal. Not least because there are plenty of sources for this. I started with a paragraph on the Satellite state article. But then the paragraph grew so large, it practically took over the article! A brand new one was necessary. I simply went with a "split" to emulate Albania and Yuogslavia, as these were existing templates, unaware of the actual uniqueness of Romania's position. And it truly was unique: per the sources in the heading of this article, Romania was the only country to undergo desatellization and remain in the Warsaw Pact. I only resisted change until I could find an appropriate title, a term quoted by multiple RS. I simply needed a few days. But...the issue this article is supposed to treat still lingers. As long as we have here on the Wiki maps that simply portray Romania as yet another satellite like all its Warsaw Pact peers, the job is incomplete. What can be done to change these maps in order to reflect Romania's aforementioned unique position? Give Romania a different color, perhaps a lighter shade of the existing one, such as the image I chose for this article? Frankly, I am pessimistic. Lethargy? Complacency? I do not think we can get the authors of these maps, after all these years, to exact the changes needed for this newly-affirmed accuracy. Not to mention the years in which it had been ingrained in common knowledge that Romania (at least Romania under Nicolae) was a Soviet satellite, however wrong it may be. I am passionate about this because I used to think the same! Because I've been lied to! Always given the impression that the Warsaw Pact was just "Moscow & friends", and I had to intensely research Romania's case to realize just how much bunk BS this notion is! And I do fear, fear that my singular efforts are too little, too late to debunk the BS. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 08:16, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Biruitorul's suggestions were fine and the current title works. I'd suggest the following things now: restructuring, creating subsections for the "distancing"/"desatellization" efforts in various fields (you cannot really treat economy and diplomatic relations together). Definitely create a subsection concerning the foreign policy. The article already has some information, but more could be done (Romania's role as a mediator in the Israeli-Arab conflict). I'd be willing to join in provided that my edits don't get blindly reverted (obviously Romania's refusal to sever relations with Pinochet's Chile is relevant!). Potugin ( talk) 10:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)