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I replaced three signatire finishing moves that had been removed by an IP user who also added the work slap to the article randomly. Therefore, I was skeptical of their removal. If they needed to be removed for legit reason, please do so. I would appreciate it. Thanks. -- Psy guy (talk) 13:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
No Rumors? Certainly it bears mentioning, as it was reported by several credible sources, rumors or not.
The link to Al Wilson leads to the NFL Linebacker, with no mention of the wrestling angle whatsoever. I removed the wiki link from his name for the time being. Genocidal 08:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
how did she get the name Beulah Mcgillslutty anyways?
Ok someone put on this page that she died. I dont know if its a joke or real but if she really is dead, then we need proof.
I have correct where it said Dawn MArie-Wilson to Dawn Marie Wilson. There would be no hyphen, as Marie is not her last name, but part of her first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xxbulldogxx ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
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Block quote
Should a headbutt to the mid-section be added to her moves list as she done this quite alot throughout 2002. Lee 18 January 2008, 11:07 (UTC)
Ok I haven't done this in a long time, but I am noticing a few things with the article :) Overall its really good, just some minor tweakage is needed.
Early Life section
Professional wrestling career
There might be some more nitpicking I can do, but I'd like to see these changes implemented if possible first, because the others might be non issues if the rest is altered. Great work! -- Naha| (talk) 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I also looked over the article. It's looking good, but I wanted to mention a few things as well:
After going through the article I feel that it meets the GA criteria and I have decided to pass it. I have fixed up spelling errors and redirects as I read through it. The only way I feel this article could be better was if it contained more current information on Psaltis and also if her ring name in the infobox should still be in boldface, because bold should only be used if the person is still wrestling. If she is, perhaps include some information about that but if not then the name should not be in boldface. Anyway, congratulations to everyone who helped turn this into a good article. - Deep Shadow 00:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems like there are accusations about her embezzling from her organization. I know that rumors are not to be addressed, but she has felt strong enough to address them and will be dealing with them in court. Inevitably someone's going to have do the work to cite them. I would, but I got better things to do. 69.243.42.251 ( talk) 13:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Is not working. It lists Psaltis as 40. She is 41 now. Friosurely ( talk) 11:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
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Hi. Regarding Keraunoscopia's removal of the Infobox photo, please see this discussion at the Commons Help Desk (which is also linked to on the photo's page, right under the licensing information). It's not a copyvio image. Marie's manager, Michelle Mupo, took the photo herself. I met Ms. Marie and Ms. Mupo at the Big Apple Con last weekend. She asked me for help regarding the issue of the photo, as she and her manager, Michelle Mupo, have some grave concerns about the placement of this photo in the Commons, which was previously being used at the main Infobox photo in the article, and prefer this far more professional-looking photo that Ms. Mupo took. I've contacted Jimmy Wales, and in response, community liaison Maggie Dennis has contacted me, and asked me to have Ms. Mupo fill out this form letter and email to the Wikimedia Foundation to clear this up. Nightscream ( talk) 16:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
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This accusation against the BLP subject was added ... with youtube video as RS??? If I'm not mistaken that's huge policy violation. Ihardlythinkso ( talk) 12:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I must agree that I don't follow the logic of telling an editor with whom you disagree to take it up with a different editor either. An implicit part of discussion, which is required in editorial conflicts, is that you explain your own position. Just because I made edits that seem to be consistent with your position, Chess, doesn't mean that you have no obligation to respond to Ihardlythinkso's statements regarding your arguments, since you also made edits he disagreed with. Saying "take it up with someone else" comes across as stonewalling, which I find to be shady behavior to exhibit during editorial conflicts, particularly when one has only been participating in it for less than a day. Editors should be able to explain their positions during such conflicts. If they don't, then discussions cannot proceed, which means that others have to called in to help resolve the conflict. While that is often the case, some effort should be made to resolve the conflict amongst the original parties themselves before that becomes necessary. Otherwise, the problem is just being passed off to other editors. There may be no policy or guidelines requiring editors to stick things out a bit in a discussion, but I think that there is a transcendent ethical one.
Ihardlythinkso, regarding your statement "Person 'A' has a BLP article. Person 'B' makes an accusatory Youtube video, an attack against the integrity of person 'A', that person 'A' has cheated person 'B'. The fact person 'B' made the video..." Relying on YouTube videos created by people who are not themselves considered RS's or notable is not appropriate, and I have indeed removed such videos when cited as sources. But when the creator of the video is themselves a notable person, that makes it appropriate, IMO (unless someone disputes that the person in the video is indeed that notable person). Another factor is the fact that Dawn Marie herself responded to the charges. How can we cite the sources in which she responds to the charges without making available the video in which Kamala makes the charges in the first place? Another factor is the fact that I cited what I thought was an RS in which Kamala's video was embedded, but which you say is a blog. I'm sorry if I didn't notice it as a blog; I'm not really that familiar with pro wrestling. I only first happened upon Dawn Marie's article after I photographed her for it, and tried to help her with her complaints regarding a previous photo in the article that was taken without her consent while she was pregnant, and was not flattering. In any event, I welcome your suggestions on how to improve the article, and to find better secondary sources. Nightscream ( talk) 15:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I have made a request at the BLP Noticeboard for editors there to join this discussion.
I hardlythinkso, what aspect of BLP policy do you feel calls for the removal of that YouTube video on sight?
In answer to your hypothetical question on my talk page, I do not see what would be wrong with use of multiple YouTube videos of notables airing their viewpoints, though obviously, Wikipedia does prefer secondary sources to primary ones, where the former are available. Nightscream ( talk) 16:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Avanu, when you say, "How do you know it is accurate?", are you referring to the mere fact that the other notable made the accusation in question, or do you mean the substance of the accusation? The former is illustrated by the video in question, while the latter is not part of Wikipedia's mission, since the standard that Wikipedia strives for is Verifiability and Attribution, not truth, since Wikipedia cannot make statements about "truth". As far as your hypotheticals in general, they are not precluded, in and of themsevles by the use of secondary sources, since those scenarios can and do indeed occur with secondaries. Moreover, slander and libel are not defined as merely "Famous Guy X saying so". Those crimes have requirements that you omitted, and have nothing to do with whether a source is primary or secondary.
I will say that I think you're placing slightly more emphasis than is warranted on my use of the word "preference", since for the most part, I think you and I are in agreement--at least more than you might imagine. Perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best, then again, I think this is a rather subtle point. I don't think that YouTube videos are an ideal source. Secondary sources for such material are the better ones to use. One would think, after all, that secondary sources would report on Kamala's accusation. But at the same time, I question the wholesale prohibition of YT, particularly if it contains a legitimate grievance from another notable whose omission from an article may be omitted. You argue that we have no way knowing if the assertion is accurate. Putting aside my aforementioned counterargument that this happens with secondary sources too ( Jayson Blair, anyone? Stephen Glass?), I don't see the merit in questioning whether Kamala is able to be accurate when stating he received zero funds from a charity that used his name. Are we questioning his ability to count to zero? And what if we do find secondary sources, ones which do not imbed the YouTube video? If the secondaries reference the video, would it still be inappropriate to include then, in addition to the secondary sources? I hope that secondary sources can be found for Kamala's position, but it disturbs me that if they cannot be found, that his views on a charity using his name will be essentially censored.
Ihardlythinkso, let's keep this discussion here on this page. It's not a good idea to split it up into multiple fronts. I don't see anyone violating CIV, AGF or NPA toward you, and if they do, be assured that I will address it.
My response the hypothetical question you posed on my talk page is this: I think the laws that we have against libel and slander tend to make people cautious in making public accusations against a public figure. That said, if a group of notables all made individual YouTube videos leveling a particular accusation against one notable in particular, I would imagine that secondary sources would report on it, and that we could cite those secondary sources. But then again, perhaps you're asking me if we should cite those videos in the absence of secondary sources? I don't know. The hypothetical scenario you propose is so bizarre that it's difficult for me to entertain. I have a hard time believing that if 24 different notables made an accusation against me, that there wouldn't be secondary coverage of it, but at the same time, I'm not sure about completely prohibiting citation of any of those videos, especially if they were cited by secondary sources themselves. Nightscream ( talk) 20:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I came here in response to Nightscream's request at BLPN. I have just skimmed the above discussion, and I don't know all the ins and outs of the secondary sources some people allude to. Let's assume that all we had was the YouTube video. Use of that video would be a violation of WP:BLPSPS. The issue as to whether you can include it simply because Psalties denied it is harder because that seems to give additional legitimacy to the accusation, but I disagree with Nightscream that that makes it reportable in our article. Essentially, the media is picking up on it because both parties are sufficiently notable and it's juicy. Does that make it now reportable in Wikipedia? My editorial judgment (not policy) says no, but I can see both sides of that particular argument (does someone have a link to the secondary coverage of Psaltis denying it? - sorry if I missed it). BTW, is Kamala accusing Psaltis of a civil or a criminal wrong? If it's the latter, then we have an issue with WP:BLPCRIME, although that particular policy also engenders disagreement about the spectrum of notability. Anyway, those are my musings, for what they're worth.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 00:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
@ChessPlayerLev, an accusation can be as damning as anything else. We don't use primary sources (for this). Repeating a bit of gossip or scandal because someone notable started it doesn't make us any less culpable. We use high-quality secondary sources, and the primary sources can serve as reference or verification for the quality or accuracy of a secondary source. We don't draw conclusions or implicitly or explicitly push a point of view. Primary sources alone would create these scenarios. We recount what our reliable secondary sources tell us. Suppose we just used primary sources to write an article, and in one "Famous Guy X" says "that guy stole $500 from me", and in another primary source, we show "that guy" just deposited $500 in the bank on the same day the money was supposedly taken. If we write:
We've just led the reader to a conclusion by placing primary sources near one another. What if FamousGuyX regularly loses $500 at the casino and blames it on people to cover himself? What if ThatGuy has a monthly social security check in the amount of $500 that always arrives on the 15th? We've said nothing except what our primary sources tell us, yet we may have completely misrepresented the situation. This is why we don't use primary sources. We use reliable secondary sources that have good publishing standards, good editors, and good authors. We don't simply take one guy's word for it. (with certain exceptions, of course, and those don't apply here) When in doubt, leave it out. WP:BLP doesn't mean we have to whitewash a person's record. It simply means that we need to be VERY sure of our information before we add it to an article. The stuff that was in this article was of a fairly poor standard. -- Avanu ( talk) 00:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Bbb23: "Use of that video would be a violation of WP:BLPSPS." Thanks for pointing that out, Bbb23. I almost forgot about SPS's.
TheRedPenOfDoom: "Someone thowing wild (or even mild) accusations from a video in you-tub is completely unacceptable as a "source". If you dont understand that, you need to stop editing content related to living people NOW." I am more than able to accept that the community may decide against using that particular source. The fact that I don't often come across articles in which controversial statements are sourced solely to self-published sources may be why it was necessary for this nuance to be clarified, and has no bearing on my editing of BLP articles in general. One clue to my good faith here is the fact that I invited other editors to join this discussion at BLPN, in order to clarify these points. If you doubt my ability to edit BLPs, feel free to check my edit history for my BLP editing; you might be surprised at how often I removed material that is either unsourced or sourced to sites with user-generated content. But if you cannot express yourself to a fellow editor in good standing without that condescending tone, then you need to stop participating in discussions with editors you disagree with until you have familiarized yourself with WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Take care. Nightscream ( talk) 01:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
This entire section is a collection of poor sources and primary sources. As a reminder, Wikipedia requires reliable secondary sources. Primary sources may be used as reference for research, but they may not be used as they have been here. In addition, these sources are being used to support criminal fraud allegations which definitely fall into the realm of BLP, and as such, our standard is even higher. To quote our WP:BLP policy: We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. This is *not* optional.
Before any of this gets re-added to the article, whether it is positive or negative, it needs to be vetted here by the community and receive a consensus to absolutely ensure that the material we are adding is supported by reliable secondary sources is not defamatory or problematic in any way. Thanks. -- Avanu ( talk) 15:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Dawn Marie Psaltis's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "owow":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
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I replaced three signatire finishing moves that had been removed by an IP user who also added the work slap to the article randomly. Therefore, I was skeptical of their removal. If they needed to be removed for legit reason, please do so. I would appreciate it. Thanks. -- Psy guy (talk) 13:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
No Rumors? Certainly it bears mentioning, as it was reported by several credible sources, rumors or not.
The link to Al Wilson leads to the NFL Linebacker, with no mention of the wrestling angle whatsoever. I removed the wiki link from his name for the time being. Genocidal 08:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
how did she get the name Beulah Mcgillslutty anyways?
Ok someone put on this page that she died. I dont know if its a joke or real but if she really is dead, then we need proof.
I have correct where it said Dawn MArie-Wilson to Dawn Marie Wilson. There would be no hyphen, as Marie is not her last name, but part of her first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xxbulldogxx ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
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Block quote
Should a headbutt to the mid-section be added to her moves list as she done this quite alot throughout 2002. Lee 18 January 2008, 11:07 (UTC)
Ok I haven't done this in a long time, but I am noticing a few things with the article :) Overall its really good, just some minor tweakage is needed.
Early Life section
Professional wrestling career
There might be some more nitpicking I can do, but I'd like to see these changes implemented if possible first, because the others might be non issues if the rest is altered. Great work! -- Naha| (talk) 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I also looked over the article. It's looking good, but I wanted to mention a few things as well:
After going through the article I feel that it meets the GA criteria and I have decided to pass it. I have fixed up spelling errors and redirects as I read through it. The only way I feel this article could be better was if it contained more current information on Psaltis and also if her ring name in the infobox should still be in boldface, because bold should only be used if the person is still wrestling. If she is, perhaps include some information about that but if not then the name should not be in boldface. Anyway, congratulations to everyone who helped turn this into a good article. - Deep Shadow 00:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems like there are accusations about her embezzling from her organization. I know that rumors are not to be addressed, but she has felt strong enough to address them and will be dealing with them in court. Inevitably someone's going to have do the work to cite them. I would, but I got better things to do. 69.243.42.251 ( talk) 13:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Is not working. It lists Psaltis as 40. She is 41 now. Friosurely ( talk) 11:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
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Hi. Regarding Keraunoscopia's removal of the Infobox photo, please see this discussion at the Commons Help Desk (which is also linked to on the photo's page, right under the licensing information). It's not a copyvio image. Marie's manager, Michelle Mupo, took the photo herself. I met Ms. Marie and Ms. Mupo at the Big Apple Con last weekend. She asked me for help regarding the issue of the photo, as she and her manager, Michelle Mupo, have some grave concerns about the placement of this photo in the Commons, which was previously being used at the main Infobox photo in the article, and prefer this far more professional-looking photo that Ms. Mupo took. I've contacted Jimmy Wales, and in response, community liaison Maggie Dennis has contacted me, and asked me to have Ms. Mupo fill out this form letter and email to the Wikimedia Foundation to clear this up. Nightscream ( talk) 16:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
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This accusation against the BLP subject was added ... with youtube video as RS??? If I'm not mistaken that's huge policy violation. Ihardlythinkso ( talk) 12:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I must agree that I don't follow the logic of telling an editor with whom you disagree to take it up with a different editor either. An implicit part of discussion, which is required in editorial conflicts, is that you explain your own position. Just because I made edits that seem to be consistent with your position, Chess, doesn't mean that you have no obligation to respond to Ihardlythinkso's statements regarding your arguments, since you also made edits he disagreed with. Saying "take it up with someone else" comes across as stonewalling, which I find to be shady behavior to exhibit during editorial conflicts, particularly when one has only been participating in it for less than a day. Editors should be able to explain their positions during such conflicts. If they don't, then discussions cannot proceed, which means that others have to called in to help resolve the conflict. While that is often the case, some effort should be made to resolve the conflict amongst the original parties themselves before that becomes necessary. Otherwise, the problem is just being passed off to other editors. There may be no policy or guidelines requiring editors to stick things out a bit in a discussion, but I think that there is a transcendent ethical one.
Ihardlythinkso, regarding your statement "Person 'A' has a BLP article. Person 'B' makes an accusatory Youtube video, an attack against the integrity of person 'A', that person 'A' has cheated person 'B'. The fact person 'B' made the video..." Relying on YouTube videos created by people who are not themselves considered RS's or notable is not appropriate, and I have indeed removed such videos when cited as sources. But when the creator of the video is themselves a notable person, that makes it appropriate, IMO (unless someone disputes that the person in the video is indeed that notable person). Another factor is the fact that Dawn Marie herself responded to the charges. How can we cite the sources in which she responds to the charges without making available the video in which Kamala makes the charges in the first place? Another factor is the fact that I cited what I thought was an RS in which Kamala's video was embedded, but which you say is a blog. I'm sorry if I didn't notice it as a blog; I'm not really that familiar with pro wrestling. I only first happened upon Dawn Marie's article after I photographed her for it, and tried to help her with her complaints regarding a previous photo in the article that was taken without her consent while she was pregnant, and was not flattering. In any event, I welcome your suggestions on how to improve the article, and to find better secondary sources. Nightscream ( talk) 15:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I have made a request at the BLP Noticeboard for editors there to join this discussion.
I hardlythinkso, what aspect of BLP policy do you feel calls for the removal of that YouTube video on sight?
In answer to your hypothetical question on my talk page, I do not see what would be wrong with use of multiple YouTube videos of notables airing their viewpoints, though obviously, Wikipedia does prefer secondary sources to primary ones, where the former are available. Nightscream ( talk) 16:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Avanu, when you say, "How do you know it is accurate?", are you referring to the mere fact that the other notable made the accusation in question, or do you mean the substance of the accusation? The former is illustrated by the video in question, while the latter is not part of Wikipedia's mission, since the standard that Wikipedia strives for is Verifiability and Attribution, not truth, since Wikipedia cannot make statements about "truth". As far as your hypotheticals in general, they are not precluded, in and of themsevles by the use of secondary sources, since those scenarios can and do indeed occur with secondaries. Moreover, slander and libel are not defined as merely "Famous Guy X saying so". Those crimes have requirements that you omitted, and have nothing to do with whether a source is primary or secondary.
I will say that I think you're placing slightly more emphasis than is warranted on my use of the word "preference", since for the most part, I think you and I are in agreement--at least more than you might imagine. Perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best, then again, I think this is a rather subtle point. I don't think that YouTube videos are an ideal source. Secondary sources for such material are the better ones to use. One would think, after all, that secondary sources would report on Kamala's accusation. But at the same time, I question the wholesale prohibition of YT, particularly if it contains a legitimate grievance from another notable whose omission from an article may be omitted. You argue that we have no way knowing if the assertion is accurate. Putting aside my aforementioned counterargument that this happens with secondary sources too ( Jayson Blair, anyone? Stephen Glass?), I don't see the merit in questioning whether Kamala is able to be accurate when stating he received zero funds from a charity that used his name. Are we questioning his ability to count to zero? And what if we do find secondary sources, ones which do not imbed the YouTube video? If the secondaries reference the video, would it still be inappropriate to include then, in addition to the secondary sources? I hope that secondary sources can be found for Kamala's position, but it disturbs me that if they cannot be found, that his views on a charity using his name will be essentially censored.
Ihardlythinkso, let's keep this discussion here on this page. It's not a good idea to split it up into multiple fronts. I don't see anyone violating CIV, AGF or NPA toward you, and if they do, be assured that I will address it.
My response the hypothetical question you posed on my talk page is this: I think the laws that we have against libel and slander tend to make people cautious in making public accusations against a public figure. That said, if a group of notables all made individual YouTube videos leveling a particular accusation against one notable in particular, I would imagine that secondary sources would report on it, and that we could cite those secondary sources. But then again, perhaps you're asking me if we should cite those videos in the absence of secondary sources? I don't know. The hypothetical scenario you propose is so bizarre that it's difficult for me to entertain. I have a hard time believing that if 24 different notables made an accusation against me, that there wouldn't be secondary coverage of it, but at the same time, I'm not sure about completely prohibiting citation of any of those videos, especially if they were cited by secondary sources themselves. Nightscream ( talk) 20:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I came here in response to Nightscream's request at BLPN. I have just skimmed the above discussion, and I don't know all the ins and outs of the secondary sources some people allude to. Let's assume that all we had was the YouTube video. Use of that video would be a violation of WP:BLPSPS. The issue as to whether you can include it simply because Psalties denied it is harder because that seems to give additional legitimacy to the accusation, but I disagree with Nightscream that that makes it reportable in our article. Essentially, the media is picking up on it because both parties are sufficiently notable and it's juicy. Does that make it now reportable in Wikipedia? My editorial judgment (not policy) says no, but I can see both sides of that particular argument (does someone have a link to the secondary coverage of Psaltis denying it? - sorry if I missed it). BTW, is Kamala accusing Psaltis of a civil or a criminal wrong? If it's the latter, then we have an issue with WP:BLPCRIME, although that particular policy also engenders disagreement about the spectrum of notability. Anyway, those are my musings, for what they're worth.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 00:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
@ChessPlayerLev, an accusation can be as damning as anything else. We don't use primary sources (for this). Repeating a bit of gossip or scandal because someone notable started it doesn't make us any less culpable. We use high-quality secondary sources, and the primary sources can serve as reference or verification for the quality or accuracy of a secondary source. We don't draw conclusions or implicitly or explicitly push a point of view. Primary sources alone would create these scenarios. We recount what our reliable secondary sources tell us. Suppose we just used primary sources to write an article, and in one "Famous Guy X" says "that guy stole $500 from me", and in another primary source, we show "that guy" just deposited $500 in the bank on the same day the money was supposedly taken. If we write:
We've just led the reader to a conclusion by placing primary sources near one another. What if FamousGuyX regularly loses $500 at the casino and blames it on people to cover himself? What if ThatGuy has a monthly social security check in the amount of $500 that always arrives on the 15th? We've said nothing except what our primary sources tell us, yet we may have completely misrepresented the situation. This is why we don't use primary sources. We use reliable secondary sources that have good publishing standards, good editors, and good authors. We don't simply take one guy's word for it. (with certain exceptions, of course, and those don't apply here) When in doubt, leave it out. WP:BLP doesn't mean we have to whitewash a person's record. It simply means that we need to be VERY sure of our information before we add it to an article. The stuff that was in this article was of a fairly poor standard. -- Avanu ( talk) 00:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Bbb23: "Use of that video would be a violation of WP:BLPSPS." Thanks for pointing that out, Bbb23. I almost forgot about SPS's.
TheRedPenOfDoom: "Someone thowing wild (or even mild) accusations from a video in you-tub is completely unacceptable as a "source". If you dont understand that, you need to stop editing content related to living people NOW." I am more than able to accept that the community may decide against using that particular source. The fact that I don't often come across articles in which controversial statements are sourced solely to self-published sources may be why it was necessary for this nuance to be clarified, and has no bearing on my editing of BLP articles in general. One clue to my good faith here is the fact that I invited other editors to join this discussion at BLPN, in order to clarify these points. If you doubt my ability to edit BLPs, feel free to check my edit history for my BLP editing; you might be surprised at how often I removed material that is either unsourced or sourced to sites with user-generated content. But if you cannot express yourself to a fellow editor in good standing without that condescending tone, then you need to stop participating in discussions with editors you disagree with until you have familiarized yourself with WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Take care. Nightscream ( talk) 01:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
This entire section is a collection of poor sources and primary sources. As a reminder, Wikipedia requires reliable secondary sources. Primary sources may be used as reference for research, but they may not be used as they have been here. In addition, these sources are being used to support criminal fraud allegations which definitely fall into the realm of BLP, and as such, our standard is even higher. To quote our WP:BLP policy: We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. This is *not* optional.
Before any of this gets re-added to the article, whether it is positive or negative, it needs to be vetted here by the community and receive a consensus to absolutely ensure that the material we are adding is supported by reliable secondary sources is not defamatory or problematic in any way. Thanks. -- Avanu ( talk) 15:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Dawn Marie Psaltis's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "owow":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
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