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I did a rewrite of the Baha'i section on this page. Hopefully the whole question of who believes what, and to what extent they claim or don't claim it should be clear. No claim is made on behalf of the majority group, specifically the fact the the universal house of justice in haifa has not made any official statement is mentioned. Also, I think it's a little easier to read and cleaner (I hope), without removing any information. I did remove the reference about BUPC believing that christ means messiah, because that's not a belief, that's the common translation, and it's common to christians and linguists too. It seemed too obvious and not to add anything, so I removed it. Lastly, I moved the external bupc site link to a reference to the beliefs-section in the bupc wiki page in the See Also section. The external link is redundant, since it's already on the bupc wiki page -- Christian Edward Gruber 23:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the bulk of the arguments presented earlier as BUPC beliefs be re-phrased into an article that's part of the BUPC set of pages? Why it's all on this talk page I'm not really sure. This is not the best forum to present the perspective of the BUPC, I think. Just a thought -- Christian Edward Gruber 00:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why noting the tradition of adoptions as particular to the BUPC is termed POV. Jensen's The Most Mighty Document is certainly particular to the BUPC, outlines the group's rather broad interpretations of "adoption", and is a foundational document to Chase's claims to the Exilarchy and Guardianship. Neglecting to state that this string of adoptions includes several of this type could lead a reader to think that each of these were what would be regularly termed "legal adoptions." MARussellPESE 13:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
~Wrong again. But, like I said, whatever. The Jews didn't accept Jesus because he didn't fullfill their expectations of the Messiah. This is not to draw a comparison to their stations, but their failure to meet others expectations; Neal and Mason's adoptions are not invalid because they don't meet your expectations of a legal adoption. The fact is they are, and have been upheld in legal proceedings more than once.
In the WIPO case they did take into consideration who is the true UHJ, for that was in question, and the question was resolved by looking into the Will&Testament. We have a Guardian who meets the criteria of the W&T (Aghsan and appointed), whereas the sans-Guardian UHJ doesn't even have one to point to, so are obviously operating outside the established Charter for the Institution. You're just plain wrong, and as in most such cases, are attacking the messanger instead of righting your wrongs. You're obviously unfamiliar with the case, and are shooting from the hip. Furthermore, when it comes to succession of leadership of a religious organization, these matters are protected by the 1st Amendment, under freedom of religion. It's not even worth explaining any further. You've won your great victory. Congratulations. Whatever! User:Jeffmichaud 02:01 14 January 2006
One of the biggest thing I've seen in the latest little edit match between MARussellPESE and jeffmichaud is switching which groups claiming to be Baha'is get use the term "group", or are labelled with "sect". While "sect" is a reasonable term applied without point of view, it nevertheless has a flavour of diminuation to it, and the way it's been re-applied by members of "the other" group in this page and others is particularly troubling.
I would like to propose (and I may be a culprit here, by the way) that we abandon the use of hte term "sect" in any reference to any group claiming to be Baha'i. Period. We can use the terms "organization", "group", or in the cases of specific institutions use their names.
What I want to do is, frankly, to keep MAR and Jeff (currently) and others in general from flipping back and forth between unseemly re-edits of the beliefs. I'd also appreciate it if each could consider the edits of the other for a little while before re-editing it. Cool heads need to consider this. This is not a forum for advantage, this is a service to the wider community. Admittedly, that's my own POV, but nevertheless. I think we're close to a fair presentation of both, and we're now in the process of jockeying for position with subtleties. I think we need to stop it and be fair. -- Christian Edward Gruber 14:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
~While I would normally maintain that Christian is the most disciplined NPOV contributor I've come across, I just have to point out that in this particular case it was he who first used the label "sect" to describe the BUPC, and "mainstream group" for his own sect. Hence, the "loading". As this whole section was reworked recently by him, it was in fact he who created the dynamic of the term "sect" being used to describe the BUPC; I therefore chose to apply it across the board. No offense, right?
It is my own POV that this whole recent rewrite, while it is far superior to any previous versions I've seen, still contains far too many redundancies. I say this for the conclusion of the statements from the Haifans is that they have no position on the matter. Well neither do the Mormons, or the Republicans, etc. Let's just list everyone who has no position on the matter. Oh that would be redundant, right? If the point is to distinguish the Haifans (who have nothing to contibute to the subject) from the BUPC, then what was wrong with the article (which included the "Note:" of distinction) in the first place? I can't see how this is even a "Baha'i View" when clearly the only Baha'is with a view on the matter are the BUPC alone. What was wrong with the original "BUPC View" version?
Furthermore, MARussell would like the reader to believe that the "Central Figures" take no position on it when Baha'u'llah stated he was "seated on the throne of David" (Proclamation), Abdu'l-Baha stated that the verses from Isaiah 11 applied "word for word" to his father in SAQ, and Shoghi Effendi confirms this stating he was the "Glory of the Lord", "established on the Throne of David" in GPB. The statement is therefore NOT TRUE according to the Explicit Texts of 3 of the 4 "Central Figures", and should be stricken. And, as the UHJ is only to have opinions on matters not contained in the Explicit Text, they of course cannot take a position contrary to the Explicit Text, which in this case maintain that he was in fact seated on the throne of David, as do "the histories of by-gone ages". To this I have completely and thoroughly documented in /Archive2 to wit none of my final presentation of facts and sources has been challenged. Therefore I contend that this whole matter be stricken from the "Baha'i View", as the statements contained therein completely contradict reality, for the reasons stated. User:Jeffmichaud 01:54 12 January 2006
~Welcome to this 2 month old discussion. Thanks for contributing nothing verifiable, or sourced, but simply weighing in with a superiority complex the size of Oregon. Those broad sweeping statements would surely have put me in my place, and would be impressive if they could be shown true. The Central Figures must be so proud at your valiant effort at defending the Covenant against us un-normal Baha'is. User:Jeffmichaud 12:50 13 January 2006
Please stop - please everybody for the love of Baha'u'llah please stop. This is ludicrous. Not only that, this is bad for Baha'u'llah's cause, whichever flavour you adhere to. It casts ridicule upon His community.
Let me first just say that I already admitted that I was likely a culprit (at the time I couldn't remember, nor be bothered to check) about the "sect" term use. Please take it as read that I have re-considered my use of the term, and stated so above. Second, it is reasonable to mention that the leadership of the group that leads the vast (95%+) majority of Baha'is does not consider this belief a core doctrine (as interpreted literally by the BUPC). The reason it is reasonable so to mention is that to not mention it makes it seem that the BUPC view is more widely held among Baha'is, or more importantly, that it's officially held by the group headed by that body. Regardless of the truth or falsehood of this interpretation, the literal lineal descent by birth-and-blood is not "doctrine". If one doesn't accept that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, one can reasonably say that one is not a Baha'i. If one doesn't accept the lineal, literal, suitable-for-property-inheritance descent of Baha'u'llah from David, then that is not heterodox. If I follow the Universal House of Justice, and believe in the above doctrine - I suspect they would not care. However, more to the point, they have never written that I must care. Shoghi Effendi has not provided explicit clarification of the details of the above. He has said things that lead Jeff and others to conclude that he meant the above doctrine, but "seated on the throne" does not mean literally descended, however much someone may see it as implying the same. Baha'i books, baha'i communities, in the main, just don't talk about it. Jeff is asking for a source for the negative. You cannot prove a negative. If the majority of Baha'is don't care, they're not going to bother to write that they don't care. It's reasonable to not say "baha'is don't care" as a firm assertion, but the wording "many baha'is don't care" is reasonable both in letter and in spirit. In my 16 years of exposure to Baha'is in several communities all over north-america, including ex-christian evangelicals who would conceivably care about such prophesies, they mostly just don't. This whole discussion is ludicrous. We should find a reasonable way of expressing the BUPC position on the matter, identify that "as a doctrine" it is of primary importance only to them (or that evidence that it is important to other Baha'i groups is not available - can't prove a negative after all), and move the heck on. We all seem to have way too much time on our hands. If we love Baha'u'llah, we will not subject his community to ridicule this way. -- Christian Edward Gruber 18:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Since my original comments about David Hughes are now buried in Archive 2, I feel I must quote them here, as it is being stated that "This is a bona-fide source Jeffmichaud referenced". Here's my one mention of this URL:
In section 16 of that page an unbroken chain of father to son descendents is listed from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah. The lineages of David Hughes Davidic Dynasty have been misrepresented and misunderstood by MARussell. I made an exhaustive effort to point out the flawed conclusions reached by MARussell following his exhaustive under-educated rant about the site's genealogies. Instead of acknowledging these clarifications, my comments went unacknowledged, and have since been archived. It is now being falsely asserted that the discrepencies between Hughes' flawed data and the BUPC's exhaustively researched genealogy chart somehow indicates that the BUPC is in error, as it is being assumed that Hughes is a final authority on the matter. Even though this couldn't be further from the truth, Hughes' genealogy is nearly identical to the BUPC genealogy chart, save a generation or two where he can be shown to be in error. Since the thoroughly sourced proof of this has been ignored and now buried in Archive 2 (7 days from it's creation) , I'll have to restate some of it here; because 1) his chart contains flaws of which are dwarfed only by the flaws of MARussell's conclusions, and 2) he's in no way an expert on the subject, as this will show, and shouldn't be referenced as such. Note above, that my only reference to him was in light of the fact that other non-Baha'i sources have linked Baha'u'llah to Bostanai. Showing that I'm once again being maligned and marginalized by misrepresentations of clearly stated views. So that there can be no further confusion, here is what else I've stated on the matter.
~Bravo on your command of the Latin language. We're all so impressed. How can you say that the subject has "lacked personal interest" when you've picked apart every sentence I've written for the last 6 weeks trying to disprove the BUPC position (who put you in charge of that, anyways?). Now that I've exhaustively sourced and baby-stepped you through the backround information one needs when approaching this subject, effectively shining a bright light on your ignorance, you claim this is not of personal interest? How convenient.
For the love of God, stop. Everyone! We're not going to argue the truth of BUPC positions here. It's not relevant. What's relevant is what can be demonstrated (or the fact of what can't be demonstrated) with regards to this belief, and list such sources as are available. Absent any sources, you put what we know. Absent good sources, we put what crappy sources we have. If we don't like sources, we, using NPOV language, identify that the source is questioned by X group or X scholar, etc. If hughes thing is a source, he can be a total nut-case and he can still be sourced - qualify the bloody source. And I really wish that people could understand the point of archiving. We can link into the archive, but re-posting what has been archived is extremely impolite and near to spamming. Especially since the cited archived text is intended to argue a position. This page is not about arguing a position. Wikipedia is not about arguing a position. External web-pages are good for that, and link them in to support the existance of hte belief. But don't argue for the truth or falsehood of a belief here. Frankly even "Baha'is under the provisions of the Covenant" believe "X" is much better than just stating "X". Wikipedia is not a platform, it's an encyclopedia. Can we all just please deal with it? Plenty of things that Baha'is, Christians, Muslims, and others would prefer did not appear are on their relative pages - because this is a communal resource, and it should, insofar as it is worded, be accurate. -- Christian Edward Gruber 19:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but this is NOT what Hughes states at all! The “spotty evidence” and “genealogies that have gaps” cited by Hughes is NOT the line of Baha’u’llah through Bostanai’s Persian wife, but Hughes refers expressly to the line of the “Shaltiel Family and Berdugo families etc.” The “etc..” refers to all those so grouped as descendant of Hezekiah’s sons that fled to Spain and has nothing to do with the line of Baha’u’llah at all, as every one of the ancestors of Baha’u’llah in the male line from Isaac Iskoi II is given with NO GAPS at all. A glance at section 16 makes it clear, as every "Prince" is given with his death date, and there is not one gap in descent. Whereas the lines for these European families mentioned indicated the missing "gaps".
Kayumarth (1453) of Nur being the throne inheritor of both Kaus the son of Hasan Bawandid, and Bisitun the son of Gastham the son of Ziar Badustaniyan, thus uniting both the line of Bawand and Baduspan whose common ancestor is Bostanai. Therefore MARusell is using this postscript of Hughes' out of context, and is in error connecting Baha'u'llah's ancestors, noted as "Princes" in an unbroken chain, with these European families who notedly have "spotty evidence" to their claims.
Furthermore, concerning Hughes "(note: the descendants of Baha'u'llah are extinct in the male-line)" it the BUPC position that as Mason is the legally adopted son of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, this is continued in the male line through adoption of Mason. This is not a “tradition” of adoption particular to the BUPC but is a tradition of adoption for the purpose of succession” upheld by the Israeli State supreme Court, is the same “tradition” upheld from the Ottoman Law Code and is the same “tradition” upheld by the British mandate as well as a religious “tradition” upheld by the first amendment of the US concerning the successors to the head of a religion.
Bottom line, MARussll cites Hughes, but slashes out the direct reference to the “Shalitel and Burdogo familes”, that are descended from Bostanai through his Jewish wife and which has gaps that are dually noted in the descent lines. Baha’u’llah’s line has no gaps in the male–line from Bostanai (665 AD) to Kayumarth (1453) and from there to ‘Abdu’l-Baha (1921), and Hughes does not refer to it as such. Here is the full quote with the deleted section from MARussell restored:
“(d) those families which claim royal Davidic descent as a part of their family's tradition and can produce spotty evidence to support their claims, however, their genealogies have gaps and they can not fully document their claims, such as the Shaltiel Family, the Berdugo Family, etc. Though, these families have gaps in their genealogies, nevertheless, it is known who their family-ancestor was; thus, the ancestors of these families maybe found on the Davidic Dynasty Family-Tree. [note: the descendants of Baha'u'llah are extinct in the male-line, and, the pedigree of the modern-day claimant Mohammed Mohadjer is highly suspect]”
Therefore I give the section as rightly amended to reflect the facts, as there are no known "disagreements about the accuracy of this descent" in regards to Baha'u'llah's ancestors, at least not on this URL from David Hughes. As this is an article concerned with veririfiable facts, one would have to provide a reliable source to assert such a thing. User:Jeffmichaud 21:16 18 January 2006
~Why are we back to attacking the BUPC's position? So, Baha'u'llah did make a claim to the throne? I thought MARussell was arguing that he didn't. Which is it? Now MARussell believes he knows what Hughes' views are? Hilarious!
MAR has gone to the greatest lengths to try and disprove the fact that Baha'u'llah's the heir, and now that every arguement has been utterly destroyed, there is nothing left than this futile assertion of his insight into a postscript where he's adding words that aren't there. He's used his version of "logic" every step, instead of going on facts, and cannot show one instance where I've been shown in error. He opposed the Iqlim-i-Nur with no facts, but logic. He's opposed the line with "logic" regarding statistical analysis of the likelihood of Baha'u'llah's connection to Bostanai. I brought forward published sources and the URL to Hughes. He conveniently ignored my actual published sources, and chose to focus an attack on Hughes' research with logic about older siblings claims, etc., and was shown utterly wrong with a litiny of verifiable source in my final post to Archive 2 on 04 January 2006, all of which went completely unacknowledged or opposed. In every instance his "logic" was shown in error in light of actual facts that could be asserted. I am grateful for all this, for it has given a forum to this subject, which is dear to me, and helped to bring forward much of the evidence that exists for all to see. And for that, I would like to thank MARussell for his opposition. My response to the last statements are:
~I'd like to thank MARussell for the sincere effort at considering the various concerns, remaining neutral and on point with this latest contribution to the "Baha'i View". I would like to ask for feedback on one thing that concerns me, before just changing it myself. I don't believe that the issue "is difficult to resolve as references and documentation available in English or Farsi are scant". I believe it's difficult to resolve for entirely other reasons, and that in fact there is an abundance of "documentation". I believe that, as there are several claimants, the over-abundance of documentation for all the families has lead to a juggerknot over interpreting it. Could my original statement of "Whereas some believe he was the heir of David's throne, the subject of who is the rightful heir to David is a subject of much debate, as there are several claimants to the title" be reconsidered for replacing this statement, or something more accurate?
This is not to open a new hornets nest, and may seem trivial, but I have a different take on all this. For one, the BUPC bibliography is available upon request at BUPC.org, and always has been. Where appropriate I've reference books to make certain points, although admittedly not on every occasion. The reason being that no one book contains the liteny of info on this subject (note: the Iqulim-i-Nur is another hornets nest altogether), as the genealogies from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah alone span three dynasties, some 1300 years. To reckon this descent alone requires over a dozen sources, and this is not the place for that. Just trying to explain to MARussell his errors in conclusions he reached required me referencing around 10 books, and took up 15k of space on this page, requiring it's archiving. As this discussion has unfolded I've brought forward sources, from the simplest, and now to the most complex renderings, all the while wishing only to meet satisfaction of the concerned editors. Somewhere along the way defending the BUPC's beliefs took precedent over staying on topic. This in not an easy subject to summarize, as it took the many members of the BUPC over 15 years to compile our findings.
Hughes bibliography has also always been available, and how MARussell can contend that "background sources for both are unavailable" over and over is puzzling, for on Hughes cite, probably for the same reasons above, it clearly states at the bottom of the page: "the bibliography and/or genealogical tables available upon request, contact RdavidH218@AOL.com".
Well, I contacted him, via email and he sent me his bibliography, and freely answered all my questions, within 24 hours. His sources for Baha'u'llah's section (16) alone contained 15 books, and are very much in line with the BUPC's sources. Hardly "scant" documentation. I'll list them if anyone would like. His and the BUPC's bibliography's are quite similar, although how we've interpreted the info has varied, leading to differences, which I've attempted to explain above.
Wikipedia goes by facts. I have given these FACTS, innumerable time, but MARUSSEL misquotes and/or misinterprets these. So I wrote to Hughes, and like I said, there are NO GAPS is the Genealogy of Baha’u’llah in the male line, and in reference to "Post-script d.)", he explained that the “etc” DOES NOT refer to Baha’u’llah. Hughes further stated that: “his [Baha’u’llah’s] pedigree now would be accepted by academia”.
Hughes' email back to me citing my specific questions to him - Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:49:04 EST:
So there's that. He's welcomed anyone to write to him on his cite, so feel free. I would like to request feedback, based on these things, regarding the statement, "is difficult to resolve as references and documentation available in English or Farsi are scant". User:Jeffmichaud 23:47 23 January 2006
I like the recent re-wording. It seems to flow better, and clarifies the extent of what documentation can be sourced on the topic nicely. -- Christian Edward Gruber 04:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Now the entire section on the throne of David is repeated on the BUPC belief section. I mentioned avoiding redundancy and putting it on one or the other, and now Jeffmichaud took the opportunity to copy-edit a bunch of stuff onto the BUPC page. Any suggestions? I think one of the pages should have a brief summary of a few sentences and the other a few paragraphs that aren't copy-edited. Cuñado - Talk 19:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, I did not line up Gonzales with the BUPC chart for a side-by-side comparison. The gaps in Gonzales' chart were compelling enough. I wasn't aware (You may have told me, but I missed it?) that Gonzales is a foundational reference for the BUPC chart. Is there a reference for this? Without that, the charts do "conflict" because the gaps in Gonzales don't confirm all the statements in the BUPC chart.
I did do a detailed side-by-side comparison of the Hughes and BUPC charts. I spent the better part of a weekend highlighting the various differences. (An experience I'd like not to repeat.) Some of these are detailed above. To me the most significant differences were that Hughes noted several places where the lineage of Bahá'u'lláh passes through younger sons. This is a significant challenge to the BUPC position which the BUPC chart and their discussions glosses over this completely, which doesn't lend the BUPC position credibility. This is the heir-vs-descendant argument from above, which I don't believe the you've answered.
You said elsewhere that Hughes recently updated his genealogy after discussion with BUPC. On a cursory glance, the article has been reformated, but I don't initially see that it's been updated significantly. Most importantly, Hughes still notes several junior sons along Bahá'u'lláh's line of descent. Hughes' inclusion of Baha'u'llah in his Postscript note (h) "pretenders" doesn't suggenst that he's convinced that Baha'u'llah is "the" heir, just perhaps a descendant. So this independent source still conflicts with the BUPC position that he's the heir.
Arguing that any patrilineal descendant can, or is, the heir is a theological one, and would conflict with, what I understand the meaning of "heir" to be: first-born patrilineal descendant. The article as it stands seems clear, inclusive, and NPOV. The BUPC claim not only descent, which Hughes confirms but Gonzales can't support, but inheritance, which Hughes does not confirm and seems to actually disprove. The Baha'i response side-steps the question by asserting that this is largely symbolic. MARussellPESE 13:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no Jewish view???????????
That is called the "History" section Johnbod 13:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I edited out of it anything offensive-- Java7837 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC) and kept only useful stuff such as it's importance being the messiah is of the davidic line i also commented on the fact that king david was of the tribe of judah etc. nothing offensive-- Java7837 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The language is still hardly encyclopedic, and the main section of the article is the Jewish view of the subject in general - what you are giving is the Jewish view of the Christian view! Johnbod 23:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I am suspicious of the merits of a "historical genealogy" that needs to make its home on an AOL page and has nothing to back itself up except itself. There's also too much "if you look at this, you see this"-type of drawing conclusions from said materials, so I have removed the Hughes materials, because without the conclusions, they aren't necessary. The argument was "verifiability, not truth", and that is precisely the concern I have here. MSJapan 19:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've struck this section as the BUPC POV is WP:UNDUE by any stretch of the imagination (I'm much more familiar w/ WP's Policies now and should never have been arguing based on WP:V because UNDUE trumps), and the Baha'i points essentially say that they have nothing to say - which is no contribution at all. MARussellPESE ( talk) 02:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This is peurile reasoning in its most basic form. It's argument by assertion, and quite tedious.
Since you've been asked to produce a single clear statement that proves your positive, and failed, it appears that I must prove that it is taken as symbolic.
The single statement, in the hundreds of letters and several books Baha'u'llah wrote, asserting that he's "seated on the throne of David" is not at all a claim to be the direct, or even an indirect, descendant. This is as figurative a statement as his assertion that he's renewed the kingdom of Jerusalem.
As Baha'u'llah never set foot in Jerusalem, the City, here it must mean something else:
and,
So, as the New Jerusalem is a symbolic reference to his "revelation", then as it's "revealer", he is its head; and to continue the analogy, he is "seated upon the throne of a new Jerusalem" or "David's throne".
The literal assertion that Baha'u'llah is a direct descendant of David is not supported in Baha'i primary sources. "Seated upon the throne of David" is figurative. Q.E.D.
There is no place for a "Baha'i view" that is quitessentially figurative on this page.
No published Baha'i source draws connection to Bostonai. If it did you'd have produced the source by now. You've had years. The Gonzales genealogy itself identifies no sources and was never published. It fails WP:RS and is out. MARussellPESE ( talk) 14:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe you're mistaken regarding these creative interpretations of original research. The explanation I referenced in Some Answered Questions provides what you're asking for. I don't quite understand these objections, and to answer them we have to begin debating doctrine again. I'm not going there. Abdu'l-Baha says he's a descendant of David's through Jesse on page 63 of SAQ in no uncertain terms, and this is reconfirmed by the GPB reference, so these extraneous demands you're asking for don't appear warranted. Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 19:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Could you please indulge me in explaining how "a Baha'i view here is WP:Undue"? How exactly? This has never been raised as a concern in the over two years of it's existence. It appears every time I resolve a raised concern, new ones arise. This is confirmed in the writings, so its not tangential, or irrelevant. Its in his bio that he's a descendant of David's, and Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi's writings acknowledge this. It's not original research for this information to be presented in this article; it's entirely on topic. Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 22:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I notice the following statement in the Christian view section:
Matthew shows a lineage from David, father of Solomon and Luke shows a lineage through Nathan, a son of David. A common explanation offered by Christian biblical scholars is that Matthew is stating Joseph's line and Luke is stating Mary's line. Under this interpretation, Jesus would be a biological descendant of David through his mother.
The last sentence seems a rather ambiguous statement and I am not sure that I may be missing something. In either case, Matthews lineage or Luke's, Jesus is still a descendant of David. If the inclusion is to show an apparent conflict between the two accounts then we need to allow someone to harmonize the two accounts. I'll post here and await some input before making changes. - JodyB talk 12:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The part about Matthew 1 having "A was the father of B, B was the father of C" is incorrect. It should read "A fathered[or begot] B, B fathered[or begot] C". The Greek (in Latin transliteration with parsing) text is of the form <father> {N-NSM or N-PRI} de{CONJ} egennhsen {V-AAI-3S} ton {T-ASM} <son> {N-ASM or N-PRI}. You can find that in any morphologically analyzed Greek text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.134.37 ( talk) 00:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
im pretty sure that given the citation needed tag im not going to get an answer to this, but are any of you aware of the iggeret by sherrira gaon that says that hillel is only a descendent of david on his mothers side, or, to put it more succinctly, where can i find a link to it, if such exists, much thanks g.j.g ( talk) 05:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
The introduction as it stands reads, to someone unfamiliar with the bible, as though the article is presenting an actual royal bloodline starting with a real historic figure. No mention is made of the fictional/mythical nature of King David, this needs to be fixed. -- NEMT ( talk) 03:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure this section, added by an unregistered editor, belongs in this article. It should either be deleted as not relevant or, if we think it is relevant, we need to do something about its line of argument which ends in the unsourced statement "... and thus it is not a messianic prophecy." My understanding is that it has been the subject of hot debate and that scholars hold to various views about the Isiaah prophecy: it is about a contemporary event; it is messianic; it is messianic and points to Christ's birth; it is both contemporary and messianic. What do others think - do we delete it or improve it? -- Bermicourt ( talk) 18:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm removing this section. The "curse" (prophecy, rather) was specifically about descendents of Jehoiachin, and not of Solomon. It's clear that the reason it was added by User:In ictu oculi ( diff) was a POV christological one. Christians trace Jesus' descent (in one of the genealogies) through a purported brother of Solomon named Nathan. Referring to this prophecy as being "on the Solomonic line", when it's only on the line of one of Solomon's many descendents, is inaccurate, and POV. Furthermore, the bulk of the section is a violation of WP:FRINGE. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 13:25, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
H. Wayne House Israel: Land and the People 1998 114 "And yet, Judah has also been without a king of the Solomonic line since the Babylonian exile. Because of Jeremiah's curse on Jehoiachin (Coniah) in the early 500s BC (Jer. 22:30), the high priests of Israel, while serving as the ...
I see here no reason not to have WP:RS sourced content relating to secular/Christian interpretations of the Davidic line in the Davidic line article. I will break up Jewish interpretations and Christian interpretations into 2 sections, allowing sourced content relating to either not to be seen as "POV". I am not at this point sectioning a third "In Islam" section only because of lack of immediate source. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:31, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
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I noticed an error in the table.
The legend indicates blue for the united kingdom of Israel under David and Solomon, which is factually incorrect. Archaeologists have found no evidence of either a united kingdom, or of a great kingdom in Jerusalem in the time of David.
Finkelstein & Silberman, The Bible Unearthed
From the book - “Judah remained relatively empty of permanent population, quite isolated and very marginal up to and past the supposed time of David and Solomon, with no major urban centers and with no pronounced hierarchies of villages and towns.”
“The kingdom of Israel was never particularly Israelite in either ethnic, cultural, or religious connotations. The Israeliteness of the northern kingdom was in many ways a late monarchic Judahite idea.”
From the video documentary - “Iron Age Jerusalem in the 10th century was a small, backwater village; no fortifications or monuments; texts and archaeology do not agree on the nature of the site.”
“David’s Jerusalem was a simple mountain village, covering three to four hectares. We can agree, David did not build a prestigious capital.”
“In Jerusalem, it’s a small village; nothing monumental, no real evidence for a big capital. No evidence for a great Solomonic capital, ruling over a great, rich state. And here at Megiddo, the monumental buildings which had been described as the symbol of Solomonic greatness, in fact, date a bit later, they don’t date to the time of Solomon, they don’t date to the tenth century. So, we are in a situation of a complete negative picture, negative evidence from coast to coast.”
Several books stated in the past that the French Bourbon were from the davidic line. It's also something that is sometimes said of the English monarchy. It's not modern urban legends, there have been many books about it in the last centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 ( talk) 00:11, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Under paragraph one of the Christian Tradition, the last sentence says, "One Christian interpretation of the Davidic line counts the line as continuing to Jesus son of Joseph, according to the genealogies which are written in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 through the line of Mary, who is descendant from Solomon." This is textually and Theologically inaccurate. Consider the following:
Textually, the tables in Matthew 1 trace Jesus of Nazareth's ancestry through Solomon. But the tables in Luke 3 trace His ancestry through another son of David called Nathan. From Abraham to David the tables are the same with the exception being that Matthew includes women (Tamar [Mat. 1:3], Rahab, and Ruth [Mat. 1:5]). From David to Jesus, the tables are entirely different. The reason for this is that Matthew's table is Joseph's ancestry while Luke's is of Mary's.
Theologically, consider first that it was common for a woman's genealogical tables to substitute a woman's husband in her place. Since Matthew include three women already, it's believed that if it was Mary's genealogy, the author would have no need to use her husband as a place holder. Additionally, God declared that no blood relative of Jehoiakim or Jeconiah would sit on the throne of Israel. This presents a problem for the Jewish tradition, who believe the Messiah will be a descendant of the royal line through the Kings of Judah. But, Mary's ancestry in Luke is traced through an entirely different son of David. Given that Jesus is believed by Christians to have been devinely conceived (satisfying Isaiah 7:14), He therefore is not a blood descendant of Jehoiakim (satisfying Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
I can provide sources if needed. DGTubbs ( talk) 03:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
There are a lot of other threads discussing removal of content which alluded to my discussion. At the very least, the line I referenced is textually incorrect. Anyone with a Bible out access to one online can see it's just patently wrong. DGTubbs ( talk) 03:22, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Warshy: HerbiePocket's standard of the Davidic line is ipse dixit. Everyone who claims he is one, he is one. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Warshy: I should first note that I am not Jewish and a professional historian, and that should be enough said there. I would strongly urge you not to use those kind of blind indictments in the future, as they may be interpreted to disparaging of religion and specifically to the Jewish people.
More importantly, to answer your statements:
Yes, Branch Davidians, as a theological precept, look for the restoration of the coming Davidic monarchy. Yet, as a function of their internal leadership, no, they do not claim descent from the figure of David. Thus they are irrelevant to an article about his descendants.
Similarly, British Israelism claims Davidic descent through the alleged figure of Tephi-Tea or Tephi-Tamar. While she is famously a literary invention of the 19th century, her lack of historicity is ultimately not the point. British-Israelism's claim to the Davidic descent of Queen Elizabeth is non-patrilineal, which is pertinent as both Jewish claims of the exilarch and the Christian claims of Christ are of their patrilineal descent from David. In all good faith, I have no doubt that Elizabeth might share a genealogical relationship with the Jewish royal line. However, as a point of genomic statistics, so does the majority of the planet. I believe that this was the point that Mr. ( talk) was attempting to delineate in his own crass way.
I hope we can all agree on the following:
Debresser ( talk) 12:00, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@
Karma1998: general lack of material evidence explicitly indicating a United Monarchy
is not something "invented" by Finkelstein and Sliberman, but an objective reality. While we cannot predict that no evidence will ever be found, it has not been found yet.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
bytdwdinscription there's absolutely no archaeological trace of either David or Solomon. I mean there is nothing which can be directly and unequivocally linked to either of them. There are just imaginative reconstructions of the past, and a thing is clear: Israeli archaeologists do no lack imagination.
there was no United Monarchy.But I can honestly affirm
there is no evidence that there was a United Monarchy.tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
United Monarchymean. I mean even for the archaeological evidence they uncovered, there is nothing linking it to David-Solomon-Israelites-Judahites rather than to Philistines-Canaanites. Maybe just a lack of pig bones in a place built directly on stone, and therefore very easy to clean.
kingcould mean everything from village head to mighty emperor.
@ Tgeorgescu: To be clear to everybody, I will explain my point of view.
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Discussions from this page can be found in the following link due to the article size
I did a rewrite of the Baha'i section on this page. Hopefully the whole question of who believes what, and to what extent they claim or don't claim it should be clear. No claim is made on behalf of the majority group, specifically the fact the the universal house of justice in haifa has not made any official statement is mentioned. Also, I think it's a little easier to read and cleaner (I hope), without removing any information. I did remove the reference about BUPC believing that christ means messiah, because that's not a belief, that's the common translation, and it's common to christians and linguists too. It seemed too obvious and not to add anything, so I removed it. Lastly, I moved the external bupc site link to a reference to the beliefs-section in the bupc wiki page in the See Also section. The external link is redundant, since it's already on the bupc wiki page -- Christian Edward Gruber 23:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the bulk of the arguments presented earlier as BUPC beliefs be re-phrased into an article that's part of the BUPC set of pages? Why it's all on this talk page I'm not really sure. This is not the best forum to present the perspective of the BUPC, I think. Just a thought -- Christian Edward Gruber 00:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why noting the tradition of adoptions as particular to the BUPC is termed POV. Jensen's The Most Mighty Document is certainly particular to the BUPC, outlines the group's rather broad interpretations of "adoption", and is a foundational document to Chase's claims to the Exilarchy and Guardianship. Neglecting to state that this string of adoptions includes several of this type could lead a reader to think that each of these were what would be regularly termed "legal adoptions." MARussellPESE 13:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
~Wrong again. But, like I said, whatever. The Jews didn't accept Jesus because he didn't fullfill their expectations of the Messiah. This is not to draw a comparison to their stations, but their failure to meet others expectations; Neal and Mason's adoptions are not invalid because they don't meet your expectations of a legal adoption. The fact is they are, and have been upheld in legal proceedings more than once.
In the WIPO case they did take into consideration who is the true UHJ, for that was in question, and the question was resolved by looking into the Will&Testament. We have a Guardian who meets the criteria of the W&T (Aghsan and appointed), whereas the sans-Guardian UHJ doesn't even have one to point to, so are obviously operating outside the established Charter for the Institution. You're just plain wrong, and as in most such cases, are attacking the messanger instead of righting your wrongs. You're obviously unfamiliar with the case, and are shooting from the hip. Furthermore, when it comes to succession of leadership of a religious organization, these matters are protected by the 1st Amendment, under freedom of religion. It's not even worth explaining any further. You've won your great victory. Congratulations. Whatever! User:Jeffmichaud 02:01 14 January 2006
One of the biggest thing I've seen in the latest little edit match between MARussellPESE and jeffmichaud is switching which groups claiming to be Baha'is get use the term "group", or are labelled with "sect". While "sect" is a reasonable term applied without point of view, it nevertheless has a flavour of diminuation to it, and the way it's been re-applied by members of "the other" group in this page and others is particularly troubling.
I would like to propose (and I may be a culprit here, by the way) that we abandon the use of hte term "sect" in any reference to any group claiming to be Baha'i. Period. We can use the terms "organization", "group", or in the cases of specific institutions use their names.
What I want to do is, frankly, to keep MAR and Jeff (currently) and others in general from flipping back and forth between unseemly re-edits of the beliefs. I'd also appreciate it if each could consider the edits of the other for a little while before re-editing it. Cool heads need to consider this. This is not a forum for advantage, this is a service to the wider community. Admittedly, that's my own POV, but nevertheless. I think we're close to a fair presentation of both, and we're now in the process of jockeying for position with subtleties. I think we need to stop it and be fair. -- Christian Edward Gruber 14:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
~While I would normally maintain that Christian is the most disciplined NPOV contributor I've come across, I just have to point out that in this particular case it was he who first used the label "sect" to describe the BUPC, and "mainstream group" for his own sect. Hence, the "loading". As this whole section was reworked recently by him, it was in fact he who created the dynamic of the term "sect" being used to describe the BUPC; I therefore chose to apply it across the board. No offense, right?
It is my own POV that this whole recent rewrite, while it is far superior to any previous versions I've seen, still contains far too many redundancies. I say this for the conclusion of the statements from the Haifans is that they have no position on the matter. Well neither do the Mormons, or the Republicans, etc. Let's just list everyone who has no position on the matter. Oh that would be redundant, right? If the point is to distinguish the Haifans (who have nothing to contibute to the subject) from the BUPC, then what was wrong with the article (which included the "Note:" of distinction) in the first place? I can't see how this is even a "Baha'i View" when clearly the only Baha'is with a view on the matter are the BUPC alone. What was wrong with the original "BUPC View" version?
Furthermore, MARussell would like the reader to believe that the "Central Figures" take no position on it when Baha'u'llah stated he was "seated on the throne of David" (Proclamation), Abdu'l-Baha stated that the verses from Isaiah 11 applied "word for word" to his father in SAQ, and Shoghi Effendi confirms this stating he was the "Glory of the Lord", "established on the Throne of David" in GPB. The statement is therefore NOT TRUE according to the Explicit Texts of 3 of the 4 "Central Figures", and should be stricken. And, as the UHJ is only to have opinions on matters not contained in the Explicit Text, they of course cannot take a position contrary to the Explicit Text, which in this case maintain that he was in fact seated on the throne of David, as do "the histories of by-gone ages". To this I have completely and thoroughly documented in /Archive2 to wit none of my final presentation of facts and sources has been challenged. Therefore I contend that this whole matter be stricken from the "Baha'i View", as the statements contained therein completely contradict reality, for the reasons stated. User:Jeffmichaud 01:54 12 January 2006
~Welcome to this 2 month old discussion. Thanks for contributing nothing verifiable, or sourced, but simply weighing in with a superiority complex the size of Oregon. Those broad sweeping statements would surely have put me in my place, and would be impressive if they could be shown true. The Central Figures must be so proud at your valiant effort at defending the Covenant against us un-normal Baha'is. User:Jeffmichaud 12:50 13 January 2006
Please stop - please everybody for the love of Baha'u'llah please stop. This is ludicrous. Not only that, this is bad for Baha'u'llah's cause, whichever flavour you adhere to. It casts ridicule upon His community.
Let me first just say that I already admitted that I was likely a culprit (at the time I couldn't remember, nor be bothered to check) about the "sect" term use. Please take it as read that I have re-considered my use of the term, and stated so above. Second, it is reasonable to mention that the leadership of the group that leads the vast (95%+) majority of Baha'is does not consider this belief a core doctrine (as interpreted literally by the BUPC). The reason it is reasonable so to mention is that to not mention it makes it seem that the BUPC view is more widely held among Baha'is, or more importantly, that it's officially held by the group headed by that body. Regardless of the truth or falsehood of this interpretation, the literal lineal descent by birth-and-blood is not "doctrine". If one doesn't accept that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, one can reasonably say that one is not a Baha'i. If one doesn't accept the lineal, literal, suitable-for-property-inheritance descent of Baha'u'llah from David, then that is not heterodox. If I follow the Universal House of Justice, and believe in the above doctrine - I suspect they would not care. However, more to the point, they have never written that I must care. Shoghi Effendi has not provided explicit clarification of the details of the above. He has said things that lead Jeff and others to conclude that he meant the above doctrine, but "seated on the throne" does not mean literally descended, however much someone may see it as implying the same. Baha'i books, baha'i communities, in the main, just don't talk about it. Jeff is asking for a source for the negative. You cannot prove a negative. If the majority of Baha'is don't care, they're not going to bother to write that they don't care. It's reasonable to not say "baha'is don't care" as a firm assertion, but the wording "many baha'is don't care" is reasonable both in letter and in spirit. In my 16 years of exposure to Baha'is in several communities all over north-america, including ex-christian evangelicals who would conceivably care about such prophesies, they mostly just don't. This whole discussion is ludicrous. We should find a reasonable way of expressing the BUPC position on the matter, identify that "as a doctrine" it is of primary importance only to them (or that evidence that it is important to other Baha'i groups is not available - can't prove a negative after all), and move the heck on. We all seem to have way too much time on our hands. If we love Baha'u'llah, we will not subject his community to ridicule this way. -- Christian Edward Gruber 18:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Since my original comments about David Hughes are now buried in Archive 2, I feel I must quote them here, as it is being stated that "This is a bona-fide source Jeffmichaud referenced". Here's my one mention of this URL:
In section 16 of that page an unbroken chain of father to son descendents is listed from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah. The lineages of David Hughes Davidic Dynasty have been misrepresented and misunderstood by MARussell. I made an exhaustive effort to point out the flawed conclusions reached by MARussell following his exhaustive under-educated rant about the site's genealogies. Instead of acknowledging these clarifications, my comments went unacknowledged, and have since been archived. It is now being falsely asserted that the discrepencies between Hughes' flawed data and the BUPC's exhaustively researched genealogy chart somehow indicates that the BUPC is in error, as it is being assumed that Hughes is a final authority on the matter. Even though this couldn't be further from the truth, Hughes' genealogy is nearly identical to the BUPC genealogy chart, save a generation or two where he can be shown to be in error. Since the thoroughly sourced proof of this has been ignored and now buried in Archive 2 (7 days from it's creation) , I'll have to restate some of it here; because 1) his chart contains flaws of which are dwarfed only by the flaws of MARussell's conclusions, and 2) he's in no way an expert on the subject, as this will show, and shouldn't be referenced as such. Note above, that my only reference to him was in light of the fact that other non-Baha'i sources have linked Baha'u'llah to Bostanai. Showing that I'm once again being maligned and marginalized by misrepresentations of clearly stated views. So that there can be no further confusion, here is what else I've stated on the matter.
~Bravo on your command of the Latin language. We're all so impressed. How can you say that the subject has "lacked personal interest" when you've picked apart every sentence I've written for the last 6 weeks trying to disprove the BUPC position (who put you in charge of that, anyways?). Now that I've exhaustively sourced and baby-stepped you through the backround information one needs when approaching this subject, effectively shining a bright light on your ignorance, you claim this is not of personal interest? How convenient.
For the love of God, stop. Everyone! We're not going to argue the truth of BUPC positions here. It's not relevant. What's relevant is what can be demonstrated (or the fact of what can't be demonstrated) with regards to this belief, and list such sources as are available. Absent any sources, you put what we know. Absent good sources, we put what crappy sources we have. If we don't like sources, we, using NPOV language, identify that the source is questioned by X group or X scholar, etc. If hughes thing is a source, he can be a total nut-case and he can still be sourced - qualify the bloody source. And I really wish that people could understand the point of archiving. We can link into the archive, but re-posting what has been archived is extremely impolite and near to spamming. Especially since the cited archived text is intended to argue a position. This page is not about arguing a position. Wikipedia is not about arguing a position. External web-pages are good for that, and link them in to support the existance of hte belief. But don't argue for the truth or falsehood of a belief here. Frankly even "Baha'is under the provisions of the Covenant" believe "X" is much better than just stating "X". Wikipedia is not a platform, it's an encyclopedia. Can we all just please deal with it? Plenty of things that Baha'is, Christians, Muslims, and others would prefer did not appear are on their relative pages - because this is a communal resource, and it should, insofar as it is worded, be accurate. -- Christian Edward Gruber 19:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but this is NOT what Hughes states at all! The “spotty evidence” and “genealogies that have gaps” cited by Hughes is NOT the line of Baha’u’llah through Bostanai’s Persian wife, but Hughes refers expressly to the line of the “Shaltiel Family and Berdugo families etc.” The “etc..” refers to all those so grouped as descendant of Hezekiah’s sons that fled to Spain and has nothing to do with the line of Baha’u’llah at all, as every one of the ancestors of Baha’u’llah in the male line from Isaac Iskoi II is given with NO GAPS at all. A glance at section 16 makes it clear, as every "Prince" is given with his death date, and there is not one gap in descent. Whereas the lines for these European families mentioned indicated the missing "gaps".
Kayumarth (1453) of Nur being the throne inheritor of both Kaus the son of Hasan Bawandid, and Bisitun the son of Gastham the son of Ziar Badustaniyan, thus uniting both the line of Bawand and Baduspan whose common ancestor is Bostanai. Therefore MARusell is using this postscript of Hughes' out of context, and is in error connecting Baha'u'llah's ancestors, noted as "Princes" in an unbroken chain, with these European families who notedly have "spotty evidence" to their claims.
Furthermore, concerning Hughes "(note: the descendants of Baha'u'llah are extinct in the male-line)" it the BUPC position that as Mason is the legally adopted son of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, this is continued in the male line through adoption of Mason. This is not a “tradition” of adoption particular to the BUPC but is a tradition of adoption for the purpose of succession” upheld by the Israeli State supreme Court, is the same “tradition” upheld from the Ottoman Law Code and is the same “tradition” upheld by the British mandate as well as a religious “tradition” upheld by the first amendment of the US concerning the successors to the head of a religion.
Bottom line, MARussll cites Hughes, but slashes out the direct reference to the “Shalitel and Burdogo familes”, that are descended from Bostanai through his Jewish wife and which has gaps that are dually noted in the descent lines. Baha’u’llah’s line has no gaps in the male–line from Bostanai (665 AD) to Kayumarth (1453) and from there to ‘Abdu’l-Baha (1921), and Hughes does not refer to it as such. Here is the full quote with the deleted section from MARussell restored:
“(d) those families which claim royal Davidic descent as a part of their family's tradition and can produce spotty evidence to support their claims, however, their genealogies have gaps and they can not fully document their claims, such as the Shaltiel Family, the Berdugo Family, etc. Though, these families have gaps in their genealogies, nevertheless, it is known who their family-ancestor was; thus, the ancestors of these families maybe found on the Davidic Dynasty Family-Tree. [note: the descendants of Baha'u'llah are extinct in the male-line, and, the pedigree of the modern-day claimant Mohammed Mohadjer is highly suspect]”
Therefore I give the section as rightly amended to reflect the facts, as there are no known "disagreements about the accuracy of this descent" in regards to Baha'u'llah's ancestors, at least not on this URL from David Hughes. As this is an article concerned with veririfiable facts, one would have to provide a reliable source to assert such a thing. User:Jeffmichaud 21:16 18 January 2006
~Why are we back to attacking the BUPC's position? So, Baha'u'llah did make a claim to the throne? I thought MARussell was arguing that he didn't. Which is it? Now MARussell believes he knows what Hughes' views are? Hilarious!
MAR has gone to the greatest lengths to try and disprove the fact that Baha'u'llah's the heir, and now that every arguement has been utterly destroyed, there is nothing left than this futile assertion of his insight into a postscript where he's adding words that aren't there. He's used his version of "logic" every step, instead of going on facts, and cannot show one instance where I've been shown in error. He opposed the Iqlim-i-Nur with no facts, but logic. He's opposed the line with "logic" regarding statistical analysis of the likelihood of Baha'u'llah's connection to Bostanai. I brought forward published sources and the URL to Hughes. He conveniently ignored my actual published sources, and chose to focus an attack on Hughes' research with logic about older siblings claims, etc., and was shown utterly wrong with a litiny of verifiable source in my final post to Archive 2 on 04 January 2006, all of which went completely unacknowledged or opposed. In every instance his "logic" was shown in error in light of actual facts that could be asserted. I am grateful for all this, for it has given a forum to this subject, which is dear to me, and helped to bring forward much of the evidence that exists for all to see. And for that, I would like to thank MARussell for his opposition. My response to the last statements are:
~I'd like to thank MARussell for the sincere effort at considering the various concerns, remaining neutral and on point with this latest contribution to the "Baha'i View". I would like to ask for feedback on one thing that concerns me, before just changing it myself. I don't believe that the issue "is difficult to resolve as references and documentation available in English or Farsi are scant". I believe it's difficult to resolve for entirely other reasons, and that in fact there is an abundance of "documentation". I believe that, as there are several claimants, the over-abundance of documentation for all the families has lead to a juggerknot over interpreting it. Could my original statement of "Whereas some believe he was the heir of David's throne, the subject of who is the rightful heir to David is a subject of much debate, as there are several claimants to the title" be reconsidered for replacing this statement, or something more accurate?
This is not to open a new hornets nest, and may seem trivial, but I have a different take on all this. For one, the BUPC bibliography is available upon request at BUPC.org, and always has been. Where appropriate I've reference books to make certain points, although admittedly not on every occasion. The reason being that no one book contains the liteny of info on this subject (note: the Iqulim-i-Nur is another hornets nest altogether), as the genealogies from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah alone span three dynasties, some 1300 years. To reckon this descent alone requires over a dozen sources, and this is not the place for that. Just trying to explain to MARussell his errors in conclusions he reached required me referencing around 10 books, and took up 15k of space on this page, requiring it's archiving. As this discussion has unfolded I've brought forward sources, from the simplest, and now to the most complex renderings, all the while wishing only to meet satisfaction of the concerned editors. Somewhere along the way defending the BUPC's beliefs took precedent over staying on topic. This in not an easy subject to summarize, as it took the many members of the BUPC over 15 years to compile our findings.
Hughes bibliography has also always been available, and how MARussell can contend that "background sources for both are unavailable" over and over is puzzling, for on Hughes cite, probably for the same reasons above, it clearly states at the bottom of the page: "the bibliography and/or genealogical tables available upon request, contact RdavidH218@AOL.com".
Well, I contacted him, via email and he sent me his bibliography, and freely answered all my questions, within 24 hours. His sources for Baha'u'llah's section (16) alone contained 15 books, and are very much in line with the BUPC's sources. Hardly "scant" documentation. I'll list them if anyone would like. His and the BUPC's bibliography's are quite similar, although how we've interpreted the info has varied, leading to differences, which I've attempted to explain above.
Wikipedia goes by facts. I have given these FACTS, innumerable time, but MARUSSEL misquotes and/or misinterprets these. So I wrote to Hughes, and like I said, there are NO GAPS is the Genealogy of Baha’u’llah in the male line, and in reference to "Post-script d.)", he explained that the “etc” DOES NOT refer to Baha’u’llah. Hughes further stated that: “his [Baha’u’llah’s] pedigree now would be accepted by academia”.
Hughes' email back to me citing my specific questions to him - Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:49:04 EST:
So there's that. He's welcomed anyone to write to him on his cite, so feel free. I would like to request feedback, based on these things, regarding the statement, "is difficult to resolve as references and documentation available in English or Farsi are scant". User:Jeffmichaud 23:47 23 January 2006
I like the recent re-wording. It seems to flow better, and clarifies the extent of what documentation can be sourced on the topic nicely. -- Christian Edward Gruber 04:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Now the entire section on the throne of David is repeated on the BUPC belief section. I mentioned avoiding redundancy and putting it on one or the other, and now Jeffmichaud took the opportunity to copy-edit a bunch of stuff onto the BUPC page. Any suggestions? I think one of the pages should have a brief summary of a few sentences and the other a few paragraphs that aren't copy-edited. Cuñado - Talk 19:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, I did not line up Gonzales with the BUPC chart for a side-by-side comparison. The gaps in Gonzales' chart were compelling enough. I wasn't aware (You may have told me, but I missed it?) that Gonzales is a foundational reference for the BUPC chart. Is there a reference for this? Without that, the charts do "conflict" because the gaps in Gonzales don't confirm all the statements in the BUPC chart.
I did do a detailed side-by-side comparison of the Hughes and BUPC charts. I spent the better part of a weekend highlighting the various differences. (An experience I'd like not to repeat.) Some of these are detailed above. To me the most significant differences were that Hughes noted several places where the lineage of Bahá'u'lláh passes through younger sons. This is a significant challenge to the BUPC position which the BUPC chart and their discussions glosses over this completely, which doesn't lend the BUPC position credibility. This is the heir-vs-descendant argument from above, which I don't believe the you've answered.
You said elsewhere that Hughes recently updated his genealogy after discussion with BUPC. On a cursory glance, the article has been reformated, but I don't initially see that it's been updated significantly. Most importantly, Hughes still notes several junior sons along Bahá'u'lláh's line of descent. Hughes' inclusion of Baha'u'llah in his Postscript note (h) "pretenders" doesn't suggenst that he's convinced that Baha'u'llah is "the" heir, just perhaps a descendant. So this independent source still conflicts with the BUPC position that he's the heir.
Arguing that any patrilineal descendant can, or is, the heir is a theological one, and would conflict with, what I understand the meaning of "heir" to be: first-born patrilineal descendant. The article as it stands seems clear, inclusive, and NPOV. The BUPC claim not only descent, which Hughes confirms but Gonzales can't support, but inheritance, which Hughes does not confirm and seems to actually disprove. The Baha'i response side-steps the question by asserting that this is largely symbolic. MARussellPESE 13:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no Jewish view???????????
That is called the "History" section Johnbod 13:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I edited out of it anything offensive-- Java7837 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC) and kept only useful stuff such as it's importance being the messiah is of the davidic line i also commented on the fact that king david was of the tribe of judah etc. nothing offensive-- Java7837 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The language is still hardly encyclopedic, and the main section of the article is the Jewish view of the subject in general - what you are giving is the Jewish view of the Christian view! Johnbod 23:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I am suspicious of the merits of a "historical genealogy" that needs to make its home on an AOL page and has nothing to back itself up except itself. There's also too much "if you look at this, you see this"-type of drawing conclusions from said materials, so I have removed the Hughes materials, because without the conclusions, they aren't necessary. The argument was "verifiability, not truth", and that is precisely the concern I have here. MSJapan 19:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've struck this section as the BUPC POV is WP:UNDUE by any stretch of the imagination (I'm much more familiar w/ WP's Policies now and should never have been arguing based on WP:V because UNDUE trumps), and the Baha'i points essentially say that they have nothing to say - which is no contribution at all. MARussellPESE ( talk) 02:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This is peurile reasoning in its most basic form. It's argument by assertion, and quite tedious.
Since you've been asked to produce a single clear statement that proves your positive, and failed, it appears that I must prove that it is taken as symbolic.
The single statement, in the hundreds of letters and several books Baha'u'llah wrote, asserting that he's "seated on the throne of David" is not at all a claim to be the direct, or even an indirect, descendant. This is as figurative a statement as his assertion that he's renewed the kingdom of Jerusalem.
As Baha'u'llah never set foot in Jerusalem, the City, here it must mean something else:
and,
So, as the New Jerusalem is a symbolic reference to his "revelation", then as it's "revealer", he is its head; and to continue the analogy, he is "seated upon the throne of a new Jerusalem" or "David's throne".
The literal assertion that Baha'u'llah is a direct descendant of David is not supported in Baha'i primary sources. "Seated upon the throne of David" is figurative. Q.E.D.
There is no place for a "Baha'i view" that is quitessentially figurative on this page.
No published Baha'i source draws connection to Bostonai. If it did you'd have produced the source by now. You've had years. The Gonzales genealogy itself identifies no sources and was never published. It fails WP:RS and is out. MARussellPESE ( talk) 14:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe you're mistaken regarding these creative interpretations of original research. The explanation I referenced in Some Answered Questions provides what you're asking for. I don't quite understand these objections, and to answer them we have to begin debating doctrine again. I'm not going there. Abdu'l-Baha says he's a descendant of David's through Jesse on page 63 of SAQ in no uncertain terms, and this is reconfirmed by the GPB reference, so these extraneous demands you're asking for don't appear warranted. Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 19:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Could you please indulge me in explaining how "a Baha'i view here is WP:Undue"? How exactly? This has never been raised as a concern in the over two years of it's existence. It appears every time I resolve a raised concern, new ones arise. This is confirmed in the writings, so its not tangential, or irrelevant. Its in his bio that he's a descendant of David's, and Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi's writings acknowledge this. It's not original research for this information to be presented in this article; it's entirely on topic. Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 22:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I notice the following statement in the Christian view section:
Matthew shows a lineage from David, father of Solomon and Luke shows a lineage through Nathan, a son of David. A common explanation offered by Christian biblical scholars is that Matthew is stating Joseph's line and Luke is stating Mary's line. Under this interpretation, Jesus would be a biological descendant of David through his mother.
The last sentence seems a rather ambiguous statement and I am not sure that I may be missing something. In either case, Matthews lineage or Luke's, Jesus is still a descendant of David. If the inclusion is to show an apparent conflict between the two accounts then we need to allow someone to harmonize the two accounts. I'll post here and await some input before making changes. - JodyB talk 12:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The part about Matthew 1 having "A was the father of B, B was the father of C" is incorrect. It should read "A fathered[or begot] B, B fathered[or begot] C". The Greek (in Latin transliteration with parsing) text is of the form <father> {N-NSM or N-PRI} de{CONJ} egennhsen {V-AAI-3S} ton {T-ASM} <son> {N-ASM or N-PRI}. You can find that in any morphologically analyzed Greek text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.134.37 ( talk) 00:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
im pretty sure that given the citation needed tag im not going to get an answer to this, but are any of you aware of the iggeret by sherrira gaon that says that hillel is only a descendent of david on his mothers side, or, to put it more succinctly, where can i find a link to it, if such exists, much thanks g.j.g ( talk) 05:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
The introduction as it stands reads, to someone unfamiliar with the bible, as though the article is presenting an actual royal bloodline starting with a real historic figure. No mention is made of the fictional/mythical nature of King David, this needs to be fixed. -- NEMT ( talk) 03:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure this section, added by an unregistered editor, belongs in this article. It should either be deleted as not relevant or, if we think it is relevant, we need to do something about its line of argument which ends in the unsourced statement "... and thus it is not a messianic prophecy." My understanding is that it has been the subject of hot debate and that scholars hold to various views about the Isiaah prophecy: it is about a contemporary event; it is messianic; it is messianic and points to Christ's birth; it is both contemporary and messianic. What do others think - do we delete it or improve it? -- Bermicourt ( talk) 18:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm removing this section. The "curse" (prophecy, rather) was specifically about descendents of Jehoiachin, and not of Solomon. It's clear that the reason it was added by User:In ictu oculi ( diff) was a POV christological one. Christians trace Jesus' descent (in one of the genealogies) through a purported brother of Solomon named Nathan. Referring to this prophecy as being "on the Solomonic line", when it's only on the line of one of Solomon's many descendents, is inaccurate, and POV. Furthermore, the bulk of the section is a violation of WP:FRINGE. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 13:25, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
H. Wayne House Israel: Land and the People 1998 114 "And yet, Judah has also been without a king of the Solomonic line since the Babylonian exile. Because of Jeremiah's curse on Jehoiachin (Coniah) in the early 500s BC (Jer. 22:30), the high priests of Israel, while serving as the ...
I see here no reason not to have WP:RS sourced content relating to secular/Christian interpretations of the Davidic line in the Davidic line article. I will break up Jewish interpretations and Christian interpretations into 2 sections, allowing sourced content relating to either not to be seen as "POV". I am not at this point sectioning a third "In Islam" section only because of lack of immediate source. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:31, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
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I noticed an error in the table.
The legend indicates blue for the united kingdom of Israel under David and Solomon, which is factually incorrect. Archaeologists have found no evidence of either a united kingdom, or of a great kingdom in Jerusalem in the time of David.
Finkelstein & Silberman, The Bible Unearthed
From the book - “Judah remained relatively empty of permanent population, quite isolated and very marginal up to and past the supposed time of David and Solomon, with no major urban centers and with no pronounced hierarchies of villages and towns.”
“The kingdom of Israel was never particularly Israelite in either ethnic, cultural, or religious connotations. The Israeliteness of the northern kingdom was in many ways a late monarchic Judahite idea.”
From the video documentary - “Iron Age Jerusalem in the 10th century was a small, backwater village; no fortifications or monuments; texts and archaeology do not agree on the nature of the site.”
“David’s Jerusalem was a simple mountain village, covering three to four hectares. We can agree, David did not build a prestigious capital.”
“In Jerusalem, it’s a small village; nothing monumental, no real evidence for a big capital. No evidence for a great Solomonic capital, ruling over a great, rich state. And here at Megiddo, the monumental buildings which had been described as the symbol of Solomonic greatness, in fact, date a bit later, they don’t date to the time of Solomon, they don’t date to the tenth century. So, we are in a situation of a complete negative picture, negative evidence from coast to coast.”
Several books stated in the past that the French Bourbon were from the davidic line. It's also something that is sometimes said of the English monarchy. It's not modern urban legends, there have been many books about it in the last centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 ( talk) 00:11, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Under paragraph one of the Christian Tradition, the last sentence says, "One Christian interpretation of the Davidic line counts the line as continuing to Jesus son of Joseph, according to the genealogies which are written in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 through the line of Mary, who is descendant from Solomon." This is textually and Theologically inaccurate. Consider the following:
Textually, the tables in Matthew 1 trace Jesus of Nazareth's ancestry through Solomon. But the tables in Luke 3 trace His ancestry through another son of David called Nathan. From Abraham to David the tables are the same with the exception being that Matthew includes women (Tamar [Mat. 1:3], Rahab, and Ruth [Mat. 1:5]). From David to Jesus, the tables are entirely different. The reason for this is that Matthew's table is Joseph's ancestry while Luke's is of Mary's.
Theologically, consider first that it was common for a woman's genealogical tables to substitute a woman's husband in her place. Since Matthew include three women already, it's believed that if it was Mary's genealogy, the author would have no need to use her husband as a place holder. Additionally, God declared that no blood relative of Jehoiakim or Jeconiah would sit on the throne of Israel. This presents a problem for the Jewish tradition, who believe the Messiah will be a descendant of the royal line through the Kings of Judah. But, Mary's ancestry in Luke is traced through an entirely different son of David. Given that Jesus is believed by Christians to have been devinely conceived (satisfying Isaiah 7:14), He therefore is not a blood descendant of Jehoiakim (satisfying Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
I can provide sources if needed. DGTubbs ( talk) 03:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
There are a lot of other threads discussing removal of content which alluded to my discussion. At the very least, the line I referenced is textually incorrect. Anyone with a Bible out access to one online can see it's just patently wrong. DGTubbs ( talk) 03:22, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Warshy: HerbiePocket's standard of the Davidic line is ipse dixit. Everyone who claims he is one, he is one. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Warshy: I should first note that I am not Jewish and a professional historian, and that should be enough said there. I would strongly urge you not to use those kind of blind indictments in the future, as they may be interpreted to disparaging of religion and specifically to the Jewish people.
More importantly, to answer your statements:
Yes, Branch Davidians, as a theological precept, look for the restoration of the coming Davidic monarchy. Yet, as a function of their internal leadership, no, they do not claim descent from the figure of David. Thus they are irrelevant to an article about his descendants.
Similarly, British Israelism claims Davidic descent through the alleged figure of Tephi-Tea or Tephi-Tamar. While she is famously a literary invention of the 19th century, her lack of historicity is ultimately not the point. British-Israelism's claim to the Davidic descent of Queen Elizabeth is non-patrilineal, which is pertinent as both Jewish claims of the exilarch and the Christian claims of Christ are of their patrilineal descent from David. In all good faith, I have no doubt that Elizabeth might share a genealogical relationship with the Jewish royal line. However, as a point of genomic statistics, so does the majority of the planet. I believe that this was the point that Mr. ( talk) was attempting to delineate in his own crass way.
I hope we can all agree on the following:
Debresser ( talk) 12:00, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@
Karma1998: general lack of material evidence explicitly indicating a United Monarchy
is not something "invented" by Finkelstein and Sliberman, but an objective reality. While we cannot predict that no evidence will ever be found, it has not been found yet.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
bytdwdinscription there's absolutely no archaeological trace of either David or Solomon. I mean there is nothing which can be directly and unequivocally linked to either of them. There are just imaginative reconstructions of the past, and a thing is clear: Israeli archaeologists do no lack imagination.
there was no United Monarchy.But I can honestly affirm
there is no evidence that there was a United Monarchy.tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
United Monarchymean. I mean even for the archaeological evidence they uncovered, there is nothing linking it to David-Solomon-Israelites-Judahites rather than to Philistines-Canaanites. Maybe just a lack of pig bones in a place built directly on stone, and therefore very easy to clean.
kingcould mean everything from village head to mighty emperor.
@ Tgeorgescu: To be clear to everybody, I will explain my point of view.