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This article seems oddly short compared to the article on Ian Paisley. Trimble became leader of the largest Unionist part at the time, and won the Nobel Prize - all after a successful academic career. What about his passion for opera? What about Dean Godson's enormous biography of Trimble?
What were Trimble's solutions to the Northern Ireland Problem? What were his thoughts or opinions on the problem?
Also, is Trimble considered a good guy or a bad guy, and in who's eyes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassassin ( talk • contribs) 12:27, 1 June 2005 (UTC)
Traditionally, Unionist leaders who compromised with Nationalists/Catholics have been ousted as 'traitors'. The same happened to former Northern Ireland PM Terence O'Neill when he implemented "one man one vote" reforms e.g. removing the ban on non ratepayers from voting. Ian Paisley's "O'Neill must go" protests were instrumental in that regard. The same happened to Brian Faulkner over the Sunningdale agreement. So I would feel that the downfall of Trimble should be seen in this context. (Eamonn)
I think it is relevant for balance reasons to point out that Trimble was one of just 2 1975 Convention members (out of a possible 13) who backed Vanguard leader Bill Craig when the latter suggested voluntary power sharing with the SDLP as the previous version of the article implies that his career then was marked solely by a reluctance to share power with Nationalists. Valenciano 17:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The first line of the article "The Right Honourable William David Trimble..." is he still "right honouable" after losing his westminster seat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.12.245.194 ( talk • contribs) 23:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The UUP have begun to refer to David Trimble as "Lord Trimble" in correspondance, this is now what he is known as! The art. should mention this in the first line! ( Couter-revolutionary 17:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
Your sarcasm clearly shows bias, everyone is now referring to him as Lord Trimble. Are you waiting for him to be in ermine before he can be known as Lord Trimble? ( Couter-revolutionary 18:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
Technically Proteus is correct. We cannot say he is a lord until he is a lord. He has been named for appointment as a lord, but is not yet one and can't be called one officially on the formal appointment. If he was to die today, he would not be regarded as a lord. Political parties use titles to push agendas. However an encyclopaedias have to be clinically neutral and only use the title when he actually is one, not when it is announced that he is going to become one.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint) 18:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's not be daft about this, he becomes a Lord in 6 days - as does Eileen Paisley, and her atricle has been names with her title for weeks now! Traditional unionist 23:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing daft about accuracy, TL. Unfortunately re the BBC they have been making the elementary mistake of calling peer-designates peers for some time. They mix them up with people with honours who can use their honour before going to the Palace. Not so with peers. It is like someone with a rock solid safe parliamentary seat in a general election. Just because you know they will be an MP in three weeks, or three days, or even three hours, does not mean one can say they are one now. Encyclopaedias have to go for accuracy, TU, not media mistakes. Until Trimble becomes a lord he isn't one and can't be called a lord. It is that simple.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint) 00:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
David Trimble's correct title is Baron Trimble and not Baron Trimble of Lisnagarvey (Lisnagarvey is his territorial designation). It is also customary to put the peerage title after the person's name and not before it. I've therefore amended the article accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mprf06 ( talk • contribs) 12:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
You obviously don't know much about parliamentary debate if you think that evidence. For a start that that isn't the official record. That's the blacks. If all media sources say one thing, and the blacks another, then the media have it. No-one with any knowledge of parliamentary recording regards the blacks as evidence of anything. They are simply a rough (and usually notoriously unreliable) draft that are issued to allow errors to be spotted and corrected. One set of blacks famously called Queen Elizabeth Queen of Ireland. Another set spelt Ronald Reagan's name wrong. A set from the House of Commons caused mirth once by replacing the words President Mitterrand with "the honourable member" (all thanks to some dozy notetaking).
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint) 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It's quite clearly just Baron Trimble. It all depends of course on where the comma in the title comes, and in his case it comes AFTER the surname, followed by the territorial designation "of Lisnagarvey in the County of Antrim". If he was Baron Trimble of Lisnagarvey, then it would have to take the form of "Baron Trimble of Lisnagarvey, of Lisnagarvey in the County of Antrim", which it quite clearly doesn't, as the House of Lords website and the Times [9] (which takes the announcement straight from its official publication in the London Gazette) make clear. He would also only need to be Baron Trimble of "somewhere" to differentiate him from another Trimble with a peerage of the same surname, which isn't the case at the moment. As for the media, you're quite right, Proteus, they really haven't a clue about the complexities of peerage titles. They would do well to consult the Wikipedia article on the subject - [10]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.99.80.120 ( talk • contribs) 01:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Is the way Lord Trimble is referred to at the start of the article i.e. W D Trimble, Baron Trimble, correct? ( Couter-revolutionary 11:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC))
Should this article title perhaps be moved from David Trimble to Lord/Baron Trimble? I think it may well be a good idea, comments would be appreciated, however I shan't take any action myself on the matter.-- Couter-revolutionary 15:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I previously amended "defect" to "join" in describing Trimble's move to the Tories. I'm not going to start an edit war over it, but I suggest there is something slightly misleading about the use of the term "defection" since it is more usually applied to a serving public official or elected representative shifting allegiances in spite of earlier pledges (such as crossing the floor of the Commons in mid-parliament). Trimble, no longer a party leader or holding any office within the UUP, is quite free to change his political allegiance; additionally, the UUP and the Conservatives have been largely sympathetic, so it's not a defection of any significance across the political spectrum.
I just thought it might be useful to solicit some views and see if we can reach a general agreement on which term should be used. Peeper 10:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I make no bones about 'seeming to think' that it has a negative connotation. It does, and I think that it is more commonly understood to have that negative connotation. Just look at the opening paragraph of the WP article that it links to:
In politics, a defector is a person who gives up allegiance to one state or political entity in exchange for allegiance to another. The term is often used as a synonym for traitor, in documents that support the act of defection/treason.
And, from the "Political party defection" section of the same article:
The term defection is also used to refer to the departure of a member from a political party to join another political party, typically because of discontent in his existing party.
In my view, the negative associations of the term don't do justice to the relatively undramatic nature of Trimble's decision or the general, if historical, alignment of the UUP with the Conservatives. These suggest to me that using "switch" would be a suitable compromise, since it makes clear that there is a change of allegiance but lacks the air of cynicism and treachery which seems evident in "defect". Peeper 11:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I actually hadn't spotted this descussion prior to my edit, but I do feel that defect is much too strong. Traditional unionist 13:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Giving to traditional ties between the Unionist party and the Conservatives, it could hardly be viewed as a defection in any sense, I think its best to say he left the UUP and joined the Conservatives.-- padraig3uk 13:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Per the official announcement in the London Gazette [13] , Trimble is Baron Trimble, of Lisnagarvey in the County of Antrim He was so described earlier but his title description was changed with a non working link to House of Commons website by someone without discussion. I have reverted the caption on his picture accordingly. 194.46.252.120 00:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
His formal title is inextricably bound to the location, while he may not use it in everyday parlance, it remains his official designation. The reference to the London Gazette [14] is the Official Promulgation of his title. 194.46.227.92 00:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
00:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
194.46.232.81 ( talk) 02:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
According to WP:NCROY lords who are primarily known by their ordinary name should have this as the title of their article, this often applies to politicians who only received a title after they retired. There could be an argument that his title is useful for disambiguation, but he is clearly the primary meaning over the US politician, so this does not apply. The article should be moved to "David Trimble". PatGallacher ( talk) 23:33, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
David Trimble, Baron Trimble → David Trimble — He carried out most of his political activity before he got the title, so it should not be used, see WP:NCROY and Talk:Catherine Ashton. PatGallacher ( talk) 22:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 21:33, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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![]() | A news item involving David Trimble was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 26 July 2022. | ![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article seems oddly short compared to the article on Ian Paisley. Trimble became leader of the largest Unionist part at the time, and won the Nobel Prize - all after a successful academic career. What about his passion for opera? What about Dean Godson's enormous biography of Trimble?
What were Trimble's solutions to the Northern Ireland Problem? What were his thoughts or opinions on the problem?
Also, is Trimble considered a good guy or a bad guy, and in who's eyes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassassin ( talk • contribs) 12:27, 1 June 2005 (UTC)
Traditionally, Unionist leaders who compromised with Nationalists/Catholics have been ousted as 'traitors'. The same happened to former Northern Ireland PM Terence O'Neill when he implemented "one man one vote" reforms e.g. removing the ban on non ratepayers from voting. Ian Paisley's "O'Neill must go" protests were instrumental in that regard. The same happened to Brian Faulkner over the Sunningdale agreement. So I would feel that the downfall of Trimble should be seen in this context. (Eamonn)
I think it is relevant for balance reasons to point out that Trimble was one of just 2 1975 Convention members (out of a possible 13) who backed Vanguard leader Bill Craig when the latter suggested voluntary power sharing with the SDLP as the previous version of the article implies that his career then was marked solely by a reluctance to share power with Nationalists. Valenciano 17:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The first line of the article "The Right Honourable William David Trimble..." is he still "right honouable" after losing his westminster seat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.12.245.194 ( talk • contribs) 23:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The UUP have begun to refer to David Trimble as "Lord Trimble" in correspondance, this is now what he is known as! The art. should mention this in the first line! ( Couter-revolutionary 17:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
Your sarcasm clearly shows bias, everyone is now referring to him as Lord Trimble. Are you waiting for him to be in ermine before he can be known as Lord Trimble? ( Couter-revolutionary 18:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
Technically Proteus is correct. We cannot say he is a lord until he is a lord. He has been named for appointment as a lord, but is not yet one and can't be called one officially on the formal appointment. If he was to die today, he would not be regarded as a lord. Political parties use titles to push agendas. However an encyclopaedias have to be clinically neutral and only use the title when he actually is one, not when it is announced that he is going to become one.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint) 18:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's not be daft about this, he becomes a Lord in 6 days - as does Eileen Paisley, and her atricle has been names with her title for weeks now! Traditional unionist 23:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing daft about accuracy, TL. Unfortunately re the BBC they have been making the elementary mistake of calling peer-designates peers for some time. They mix them up with people with honours who can use their honour before going to the Palace. Not so with peers. It is like someone with a rock solid safe parliamentary seat in a general election. Just because you know they will be an MP in three weeks, or three days, or even three hours, does not mean one can say they are one now. Encyclopaedias have to go for accuracy, TU, not media mistakes. Until Trimble becomes a lord he isn't one and can't be called a lord. It is that simple.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint) 00:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
David Trimble's correct title is Baron Trimble and not Baron Trimble of Lisnagarvey (Lisnagarvey is his territorial designation). It is also customary to put the peerage title after the person's name and not before it. I've therefore amended the article accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mprf06 ( talk • contribs) 12:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
You obviously don't know much about parliamentary debate if you think that evidence. For a start that that isn't the official record. That's the blacks. If all media sources say one thing, and the blacks another, then the media have it. No-one with any knowledge of parliamentary recording regards the blacks as evidence of anything. They are simply a rough (and usually notoriously unreliable) draft that are issued to allow errors to be spotted and corrected. One set of blacks famously called Queen Elizabeth Queen of Ireland. Another set spelt Ronald Reagan's name wrong. A set from the House of Commons caused mirth once by replacing the words President Mitterrand with "the honourable member" (all thanks to some dozy notetaking).
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint) 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It's quite clearly just Baron Trimble. It all depends of course on where the comma in the title comes, and in his case it comes AFTER the surname, followed by the territorial designation "of Lisnagarvey in the County of Antrim". If he was Baron Trimble of Lisnagarvey, then it would have to take the form of "Baron Trimble of Lisnagarvey, of Lisnagarvey in the County of Antrim", which it quite clearly doesn't, as the House of Lords website and the Times [9] (which takes the announcement straight from its official publication in the London Gazette) make clear. He would also only need to be Baron Trimble of "somewhere" to differentiate him from another Trimble with a peerage of the same surname, which isn't the case at the moment. As for the media, you're quite right, Proteus, they really haven't a clue about the complexities of peerage titles. They would do well to consult the Wikipedia article on the subject - [10]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.99.80.120 ( talk • contribs) 01:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Is the way Lord Trimble is referred to at the start of the article i.e. W D Trimble, Baron Trimble, correct? ( Couter-revolutionary 11:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC))
Should this article title perhaps be moved from David Trimble to Lord/Baron Trimble? I think it may well be a good idea, comments would be appreciated, however I shan't take any action myself on the matter.-- Couter-revolutionary 15:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I previously amended "defect" to "join" in describing Trimble's move to the Tories. I'm not going to start an edit war over it, but I suggest there is something slightly misleading about the use of the term "defection" since it is more usually applied to a serving public official or elected representative shifting allegiances in spite of earlier pledges (such as crossing the floor of the Commons in mid-parliament). Trimble, no longer a party leader or holding any office within the UUP, is quite free to change his political allegiance; additionally, the UUP and the Conservatives have been largely sympathetic, so it's not a defection of any significance across the political spectrum.
I just thought it might be useful to solicit some views and see if we can reach a general agreement on which term should be used. Peeper 10:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I make no bones about 'seeming to think' that it has a negative connotation. It does, and I think that it is more commonly understood to have that negative connotation. Just look at the opening paragraph of the WP article that it links to:
In politics, a defector is a person who gives up allegiance to one state or political entity in exchange for allegiance to another. The term is often used as a synonym for traitor, in documents that support the act of defection/treason.
And, from the "Political party defection" section of the same article:
The term defection is also used to refer to the departure of a member from a political party to join another political party, typically because of discontent in his existing party.
In my view, the negative associations of the term don't do justice to the relatively undramatic nature of Trimble's decision or the general, if historical, alignment of the UUP with the Conservatives. These suggest to me that using "switch" would be a suitable compromise, since it makes clear that there is a change of allegiance but lacks the air of cynicism and treachery which seems evident in "defect". Peeper 11:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I actually hadn't spotted this descussion prior to my edit, but I do feel that defect is much too strong. Traditional unionist 13:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Giving to traditional ties between the Unionist party and the Conservatives, it could hardly be viewed as a defection in any sense, I think its best to say he left the UUP and joined the Conservatives.-- padraig3uk 13:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Per the official announcement in the London Gazette [13] , Trimble is Baron Trimble, of Lisnagarvey in the County of Antrim He was so described earlier but his title description was changed with a non working link to House of Commons website by someone without discussion. I have reverted the caption on his picture accordingly. 194.46.252.120 00:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
His formal title is inextricably bound to the location, while he may not use it in everyday parlance, it remains his official designation. The reference to the London Gazette [14] is the Official Promulgation of his title. 194.46.227.92 00:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
00:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
194.46.232.81 ( talk) 02:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
According to WP:NCROY lords who are primarily known by their ordinary name should have this as the title of their article, this often applies to politicians who only received a title after they retired. There could be an argument that his title is useful for disambiguation, but he is clearly the primary meaning over the US politician, so this does not apply. The article should be moved to "David Trimble". PatGallacher ( talk) 23:33, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
David Trimble, Baron Trimble → David Trimble — He carried out most of his political activity before he got the title, so it should not be used, see WP:NCROY and Talk:Catherine Ashton. PatGallacher ( talk) 22:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 21:33, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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