![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Was it simply George, or was it the unhyphenated double-barrel surname Lloyd George? I’ve never been entirely sure.
We read about relations between "Lloyd George and Winston Churchill", and also between "Lloyd George and Churchill". The former supports case A, but the latter supports case B.
I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s ever been confused about this. Can some kind soul come to my aid? JackofOz 06:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
In Edwardian times he was often called "George" by the Tories as a sign of contempt, presumbaly to infer that his double-barrelled name was an affectation. I also once read a charming story (?in the Grigg biog?) about how on foreign holidays his name was mistaken for "Lord George" and he was addressed by the waiter as "Milord". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 ( talk) 13:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I noticed what might be a error in the third paragraph of the introduction. The first sentence of the paragraph says...
"He is best known as the highly energetic Prime Minister (1916–22) who guided the Empire through the First World War to victory over Germany and her allies."
Shouldn't it be "victory over Germany and his allies" since Germany is known as "The Fatherland." Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.177.17 ( talk) 20:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the wording in parentheses -- (though on the outbreak of War, postponed until 1920) -- is ambiguous. Is there someone who knows this history who could clarify this? What, exactly, was postponed until 1920? -- The introduction of the Welsh Church Act? The passage of the Act? Also, the phrase though on the outbreak of War is not completely clear. I would add a comma after though and form a complete clause with postponed until 1920 by adding a subject before postponed that indicates what was postponed. CorinneSD ( talk) 22:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted a partial delete from Kdebem who states "I have never heard that LG saved Poland from the Bolsheviks. Could the author give examples just how exactly he did that?" retaining the part that was critical of Lloyd George. It seems to me as if the author has provided properly sourced content. Either that content should be retained in whole or deleted in whole. To delete part or all should not be determined by the extent of knowledge of one particular user. I admit that the author uses a strange wording to present the issues surrounding Poland in 1919 but this may be true to the source that the author was using. Graemp ( talk) 08:48, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I've done a little work tidying and expanding this section, but it could do with more work. We could do with articles for all the acts mentioned, and it might make sense to group the reforms, e.g. constitutional, employment, rent, education, and so on. Some of them were of course not actually post war - coming in the last months of the war, but it seems to make sense to keep them here rather than split them out into the war stuff. Thoughts and improvements welcome! DuncanHill ( talk) 19:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I have boldly archived a lot of old threads - my target was end 2012, as I feel that was long enough ago for threads to be regarded as stale. The archive is at Talk:David Lloyd George/Archive 1. If anyone feels that I have archived anything I shouldn't have then please do say so. DuncanHill ( talk) 19:40, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
When reading Stephen Spender's World within world, in a Dutch translation, my attention was drawn to Lloyd George. Stephen tells about his father Harold Spender, who wrote a biography (according to some critics a hagiography) on Lloyd George in 1920. Stephen also mentions his uncle John Alfred Spender, but in this lemma something is wrong; J.A. Spender has different parents and they seem not related. Could someone take a look at this? J.A. Spender has strong opinions on Lloyd George; his lack of knowledge in geography, history and economy. This is why I got interested. Taksen ( talk) 06:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
I have a concern about the fourth and fifth sentences of the first paragraph in the section David Lloyd George#Upbringing and early life. I will copy the first few sentences of the first paragraph here. I've numbered the sentences for ease of discussion.
The first three sentences are about David Lloyd George. The fourth sentence is clearly about David Lloyd George's father, William George. The fifth sentence starts "He". I have several questions about this sentence:
1) Is it perfectly clear that "He" at the beginning of the fifth sentence refers to William George? If there is any ambiguity at all, either the name should be used instead of the pronoun or this sentence should be combined with the fourth sentence.
2) Let's assume that it is the father who taught in the Hope Street Sunday Schools. I can understand briefly mentioning the occupation or occupations of the father, but
(a) putting his Sunday school teaching job in a separate sentence like this focuses attention on it, and I'm not sure Sunday school teaching should be treated with as much emphasis as his regular teaching job, unless there is a particular reason for that; and
(b) I do not understand the reason for providing so much information about the Hope Street Sunday Schools, including the fact that that is where he (assuming "he" is William George) "made the acquaintance of Unitarian minister Dr James Martineau", unless this has a direct bearing on David Lloyd George's upbringing. Perhaps it does, but the article does not say this. It does not even say that David Lloyd George met Dr James Martineau or any Unitarians. Also, neither Dr James Martineau nor Unitarians are mentioned anywhere else in the article. If Dr. Martineau and/or the Unitarians had an influence on David Lloyd George, I think this should be mentioned and made clear. Otherwise, I don't see why they are mentioned regarding the father. CorinneSD ( talk) 20:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Is it correct to label him an agnostic? I think nonconformist is adequate enough to describe his religious fate as archive footage of his religious funeral would seem to suggest he was leaning more towards the belief God did exist by the time of his passing. Tomh903 ( talk) 20:31, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
D.L. George was heavily involved in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) in favor of the Kingdom of Greece, and even suggested that Constantinople be emptied of Ottoman citizens at the conclusion of the Great War (this was rejected). He is known to have been an instigator in encouraging Greece/ Venizelos to invade Asia Minor (which proved to be folly). In the section of reshaping Europe I believe that these historic events deserve mentioning. -- Nikoz78 ( talk) 16:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Some duplication of information across articles is unavoidable, the same as with books. The emphasis needs to be a bit different though. Friendliness to Greece and hostility to Turkey were certainly major preoccupations of Lloyd George, so much so that biographers have flagged up the Great Eastern Crisis of 1876-8 as an intellectually formative experience of his mid teens. From the point of view of a biography the relevant matters are the endless intrigues around Salonika during the war, and then the Chanak Crisis which precipitated his fall. Not going to do it at this instant though. Paulturtle ( talk) 20:08, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
David Lloyd George. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 06:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
This should probably belong as a reference note somewhere, backed up with some sound sources, of course. hbdragon88 ( talk) 08:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article has an unclear
citation style. (February 2016) |
This article currently uses a large mix of multiple citation styles.
Of particular issue are the long commentary footnotes contained between unnamed <REF> tags, placed inline with the main article text. This makes editing the article text awkward and prone to breakage of references.
The article also has:
Consensus needs to be established on one style to use for this article and then a major cleanup effort will be required. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 08:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Jgrantduff, I am sure your intentions were good but the results were not. I am not trying to be hostile, just honest. In fact I very much need your help (and the help of Jonesey95 and Paul2520 to fix what is broken...
On 06-FEB-2016 you edited the article David Lloyd George creating this diff. Your edit (which appears to have possibly used either a semi-automated editing tool and/or an offline copy of a version of the article that was at least 2 days old and possibly older) caused significant problems with the article.
You implemented a huge edit, including removing important notice templates, without consensus, with no edit summary and without discussion on the talk page despite there being an specific Section established on the talk page to discuss those notices. Then, because the other two editors mentioned above came along after you and made further good-faith changes the ability to fix this with an undo became very problematic. The issues your edit created either have to be manually undone (which may require a number of HOURS of work to sort through the edit, keep the good you guys did, and remove/correct the problems your edit created) or else it will require a bulk undo of all the edits done by the three of you back to 04-FEB-2016.
In particular the biggest problem is that your edit removed and/or broke a large number of <REF> citations that -- while a poor choice in style -- were perfectly valid per Wikipedia guidelines (see MOS:REFSPACE). Text that was inline footnotes suddenly became in-article text content that was non-sequitur with the text around it.
First, please don't edit this article any more until we sort out this mess.
Second, hopefully you will understand that the easiest route will be for us to do a single bulk undo of the past 2 days (by clicking this link if no further edits are made) and then we can start again, but this time doing it right.
"Doing it right" begins with compliance on WP:CITEVAR which prohibits the wholesale changing of an article's citation style without consensus. This article has such a patchwork of reference styles that we need to think before we jump in and start editing. Which style is right for this article? After the damage is undone I would then like to post a notice on Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom to determine what is the style preferred by the community that focuses on such articles.
If this undo is acceptable please indicate in reply below. If not please discuss alternatives on how we can restore the dozens of lost footnotes and fix the other problems before making more edits that compound these problems. Thank you. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 22:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
The UNDO is done. I also went ahead and fixed the HTML BReak tags. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 04:03, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Apologies, I just made a few edits before checking the talk page. I did comb through JGrantDuff's recent edits and the content seems mostly OK. I've added a lot of material to this article over the years and one day will add a lot more, but it's nowhere near the top of my to-do pile at the moment (I seem to find myself writing up French generals of the era at the moment). I don't really have an opinion about which citation style is preferable. Paulturtle ( talk) 02:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I have begun the work of adopting a consistent citation style for the article. At this time I will follow the example at William Wilberforce which is a featured article of a British politician. If anyone objects, let me know, otherwise I'll just get on with it. I don't intend to change any of the content in this process, unless I come across any glaring errors. Poltair ( talk) 15:32, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
The Precious! We musts haves our Precious!LOL!
Just to add further confusion, Travis Crosby in his recent biog of Lloyd George lists the result as 188-87 with one abstention. (The article on the Carlton Club meeting states that there were "many abstentions"). I seem to recall reading in a book of Robert Blake's many years ago (probably his history of the Tory Party from Peel to Thatcher) that the result had been erroneously published, but I can't remember what his numbers were. Roy Hattersley lists it as 187-87 but gives no source, whilst Richard Toye in his book on Lloyd George & Churchill does not give a figure.
Amongst the obvious possibilities are either that one of the first people to write about this (OTOH Beaverbrook?) published an incorrect figure which came to be widely quoted, or else that different counts actually were taken on the night.
What we really need is not a writer who is quoting somebody else, even a constitutional expert like Vernon Bogdanor, but somebody who is actually an authority for this specific topic, e.g. the Blake or Adams biog of Bonar Law, or the Dutton biog of Austen Chamberlain. As my copies of all of these are in storage it will have to wait until my next visit to London or to my local university library. Paulturtle ( talk) 18:42, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Each of the four Balfour biogs I have to hand (Egremont, Zebel, Ruddock Mackay and R.J.Q.Adams) gives a different result for this vote, which is rather annoying. The most authoritative appears to be Adams, who gives it as 187-88, with 1 abstention. He says that the actual result was reported incorrectly in Volume 56 of "Gleanings & Memoranda", a source of which I have no knowledge, but that the actual voting cards from the night are preserved amongst the papers of J.C.C.Davidson. He then refers to page 328 of his own 1999 biog of Bonar Law, which I dare say may shed further light when I get to a copy. Paulturtle ( talk) 22:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
David Dutton does not offer a specific figure in his 1985 biography of Austen Chamberlain. The most commonly-quoted figure is 187-87, as published in classic works such as Beaverbrook's "Decline and Fall of Lloyd George", AJP Taylor's "English History 1914-45" and Blake's 1958 Bonar Law biog "The Unknown Prime Minister". This was the official number published in Volume 56 of "Gleanings & Memoranda", which Blake says was the official Conservative Central Office record at that time. In his 1999 biog of Bonar Law (p.328, detailed footnote on p.428), RTQ Adams says that the true figure is 187-88 with one abstention (Sir Robert Clough, MP for Keighley 1918-22 who does not appear to have made any other mark on history and does not even have a wiki article) and that the voting cards are, as discussed above, in the papers of J.C.C. Davidson. I assume Adams counted them carefully although he does not specifically say so. He also says that the result is incorrectly listed as 186-87 on the wrapping paper in which they are held. I think that's probably as authoritative as we are going to get. Paulturtle ( talk) 05:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Did not someone try to poison him in 1917? A reference, if true, would be useful. 2.31.36.103 ( talk) 10:05, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Is it correct that his period as MP in the House of Commons ended with his death? This may look highly questionable in view of the fact his peerage was granted 1 January 1945, qualifying him for the House of Lords. Was it the case that he had not put in his resignation from the constituency? Despite this technical question, Lloyd George still stands out among Prime Ministers as having enjoyed the longest unbroken career in the Commons representing the same constituency, 54 years. The peerage creation was unusual in that the peerage was granted while he was still MP - usually ex MPs are ennobled after resignation, retirement or defeat at their last general election. Cloptonson ( talk) 08:19, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Was it simply George, or was it the unhyphenated double-barrel surname Lloyd George? I’ve never been entirely sure.
We read about relations between "Lloyd George and Winston Churchill", and also between "Lloyd George and Churchill". The former supports case A, but the latter supports case B.
I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s ever been confused about this. Can some kind soul come to my aid? JackofOz 06:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
In Edwardian times he was often called "George" by the Tories as a sign of contempt, presumbaly to infer that his double-barrelled name was an affectation. I also once read a charming story (?in the Grigg biog?) about how on foreign holidays his name was mistaken for "Lord George" and he was addressed by the waiter as "Milord". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 ( talk) 13:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I noticed what might be a error in the third paragraph of the introduction. The first sentence of the paragraph says...
"He is best known as the highly energetic Prime Minister (1916–22) who guided the Empire through the First World War to victory over Germany and her allies."
Shouldn't it be "victory over Germany and his allies" since Germany is known as "The Fatherland." Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.177.17 ( talk) 20:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the wording in parentheses -- (though on the outbreak of War, postponed until 1920) -- is ambiguous. Is there someone who knows this history who could clarify this? What, exactly, was postponed until 1920? -- The introduction of the Welsh Church Act? The passage of the Act? Also, the phrase though on the outbreak of War is not completely clear. I would add a comma after though and form a complete clause with postponed until 1920 by adding a subject before postponed that indicates what was postponed. CorinneSD ( talk) 22:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted a partial delete from Kdebem who states "I have never heard that LG saved Poland from the Bolsheviks. Could the author give examples just how exactly he did that?" retaining the part that was critical of Lloyd George. It seems to me as if the author has provided properly sourced content. Either that content should be retained in whole or deleted in whole. To delete part or all should not be determined by the extent of knowledge of one particular user. I admit that the author uses a strange wording to present the issues surrounding Poland in 1919 but this may be true to the source that the author was using. Graemp ( talk) 08:48, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I've done a little work tidying and expanding this section, but it could do with more work. We could do with articles for all the acts mentioned, and it might make sense to group the reforms, e.g. constitutional, employment, rent, education, and so on. Some of them were of course not actually post war - coming in the last months of the war, but it seems to make sense to keep them here rather than split them out into the war stuff. Thoughts and improvements welcome! DuncanHill ( talk) 19:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I have boldly archived a lot of old threads - my target was end 2012, as I feel that was long enough ago for threads to be regarded as stale. The archive is at Talk:David Lloyd George/Archive 1. If anyone feels that I have archived anything I shouldn't have then please do say so. DuncanHill ( talk) 19:40, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
When reading Stephen Spender's World within world, in a Dutch translation, my attention was drawn to Lloyd George. Stephen tells about his father Harold Spender, who wrote a biography (according to some critics a hagiography) on Lloyd George in 1920. Stephen also mentions his uncle John Alfred Spender, but in this lemma something is wrong; J.A. Spender has different parents and they seem not related. Could someone take a look at this? J.A. Spender has strong opinions on Lloyd George; his lack of knowledge in geography, history and economy. This is why I got interested. Taksen ( talk) 06:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
I have a concern about the fourth and fifth sentences of the first paragraph in the section David Lloyd George#Upbringing and early life. I will copy the first few sentences of the first paragraph here. I've numbered the sentences for ease of discussion.
The first three sentences are about David Lloyd George. The fourth sentence is clearly about David Lloyd George's father, William George. The fifth sentence starts "He". I have several questions about this sentence:
1) Is it perfectly clear that "He" at the beginning of the fifth sentence refers to William George? If there is any ambiguity at all, either the name should be used instead of the pronoun or this sentence should be combined with the fourth sentence.
2) Let's assume that it is the father who taught in the Hope Street Sunday Schools. I can understand briefly mentioning the occupation or occupations of the father, but
(a) putting his Sunday school teaching job in a separate sentence like this focuses attention on it, and I'm not sure Sunday school teaching should be treated with as much emphasis as his regular teaching job, unless there is a particular reason for that; and
(b) I do not understand the reason for providing so much information about the Hope Street Sunday Schools, including the fact that that is where he (assuming "he" is William George) "made the acquaintance of Unitarian minister Dr James Martineau", unless this has a direct bearing on David Lloyd George's upbringing. Perhaps it does, but the article does not say this. It does not even say that David Lloyd George met Dr James Martineau or any Unitarians. Also, neither Dr James Martineau nor Unitarians are mentioned anywhere else in the article. If Dr. Martineau and/or the Unitarians had an influence on David Lloyd George, I think this should be mentioned and made clear. Otherwise, I don't see why they are mentioned regarding the father. CorinneSD ( talk) 20:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Is it correct to label him an agnostic? I think nonconformist is adequate enough to describe his religious fate as archive footage of his religious funeral would seem to suggest he was leaning more towards the belief God did exist by the time of his passing. Tomh903 ( talk) 20:31, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
D.L. George was heavily involved in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) in favor of the Kingdom of Greece, and even suggested that Constantinople be emptied of Ottoman citizens at the conclusion of the Great War (this was rejected). He is known to have been an instigator in encouraging Greece/ Venizelos to invade Asia Minor (which proved to be folly). In the section of reshaping Europe I believe that these historic events deserve mentioning. -- Nikoz78 ( talk) 16:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Some duplication of information across articles is unavoidable, the same as with books. The emphasis needs to be a bit different though. Friendliness to Greece and hostility to Turkey were certainly major preoccupations of Lloyd George, so much so that biographers have flagged up the Great Eastern Crisis of 1876-8 as an intellectually formative experience of his mid teens. From the point of view of a biography the relevant matters are the endless intrigues around Salonika during the war, and then the Chanak Crisis which precipitated his fall. Not going to do it at this instant though. Paulturtle ( talk) 20:08, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
David Lloyd George. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 06:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
This should probably belong as a reference note somewhere, backed up with some sound sources, of course. hbdragon88 ( talk) 08:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article has an unclear
citation style. (February 2016) |
This article currently uses a large mix of multiple citation styles.
Of particular issue are the long commentary footnotes contained between unnamed <REF> tags, placed inline with the main article text. This makes editing the article text awkward and prone to breakage of references.
The article also has:
Consensus needs to be established on one style to use for this article and then a major cleanup effort will be required. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 08:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Jgrantduff, I am sure your intentions were good but the results were not. I am not trying to be hostile, just honest. In fact I very much need your help (and the help of Jonesey95 and Paul2520 to fix what is broken...
On 06-FEB-2016 you edited the article David Lloyd George creating this diff. Your edit (which appears to have possibly used either a semi-automated editing tool and/or an offline copy of a version of the article that was at least 2 days old and possibly older) caused significant problems with the article.
You implemented a huge edit, including removing important notice templates, without consensus, with no edit summary and without discussion on the talk page despite there being an specific Section established on the talk page to discuss those notices. Then, because the other two editors mentioned above came along after you and made further good-faith changes the ability to fix this with an undo became very problematic. The issues your edit created either have to be manually undone (which may require a number of HOURS of work to sort through the edit, keep the good you guys did, and remove/correct the problems your edit created) or else it will require a bulk undo of all the edits done by the three of you back to 04-FEB-2016.
In particular the biggest problem is that your edit removed and/or broke a large number of <REF> citations that -- while a poor choice in style -- were perfectly valid per Wikipedia guidelines (see MOS:REFSPACE). Text that was inline footnotes suddenly became in-article text content that was non-sequitur with the text around it.
First, please don't edit this article any more until we sort out this mess.
Second, hopefully you will understand that the easiest route will be for us to do a single bulk undo of the past 2 days (by clicking this link if no further edits are made) and then we can start again, but this time doing it right.
"Doing it right" begins with compliance on WP:CITEVAR which prohibits the wholesale changing of an article's citation style without consensus. This article has such a patchwork of reference styles that we need to think before we jump in and start editing. Which style is right for this article? After the damage is undone I would then like to post a notice on Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom to determine what is the style preferred by the community that focuses on such articles.
If this undo is acceptable please indicate in reply below. If not please discuss alternatives on how we can restore the dozens of lost footnotes and fix the other problems before making more edits that compound these problems. Thank you. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 22:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
The UNDO is done. I also went ahead and fixed the HTML BReak tags. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 04:03, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Apologies, I just made a few edits before checking the talk page. I did comb through JGrantDuff's recent edits and the content seems mostly OK. I've added a lot of material to this article over the years and one day will add a lot more, but it's nowhere near the top of my to-do pile at the moment (I seem to find myself writing up French generals of the era at the moment). I don't really have an opinion about which citation style is preferable. Paulturtle ( talk) 02:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I have begun the work of adopting a consistent citation style for the article. At this time I will follow the example at William Wilberforce which is a featured article of a British politician. If anyone objects, let me know, otherwise I'll just get on with it. I don't intend to change any of the content in this process, unless I come across any glaring errors. Poltair ( talk) 15:32, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
The Precious! We musts haves our Precious!LOL!
Just to add further confusion, Travis Crosby in his recent biog of Lloyd George lists the result as 188-87 with one abstention. (The article on the Carlton Club meeting states that there were "many abstentions"). I seem to recall reading in a book of Robert Blake's many years ago (probably his history of the Tory Party from Peel to Thatcher) that the result had been erroneously published, but I can't remember what his numbers were. Roy Hattersley lists it as 187-87 but gives no source, whilst Richard Toye in his book on Lloyd George & Churchill does not give a figure.
Amongst the obvious possibilities are either that one of the first people to write about this (OTOH Beaverbrook?) published an incorrect figure which came to be widely quoted, or else that different counts actually were taken on the night.
What we really need is not a writer who is quoting somebody else, even a constitutional expert like Vernon Bogdanor, but somebody who is actually an authority for this specific topic, e.g. the Blake or Adams biog of Bonar Law, or the Dutton biog of Austen Chamberlain. As my copies of all of these are in storage it will have to wait until my next visit to London or to my local university library. Paulturtle ( talk) 18:42, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Each of the four Balfour biogs I have to hand (Egremont, Zebel, Ruddock Mackay and R.J.Q.Adams) gives a different result for this vote, which is rather annoying. The most authoritative appears to be Adams, who gives it as 187-88, with 1 abstention. He says that the actual result was reported incorrectly in Volume 56 of "Gleanings & Memoranda", a source of which I have no knowledge, but that the actual voting cards from the night are preserved amongst the papers of J.C.C.Davidson. He then refers to page 328 of his own 1999 biog of Bonar Law, which I dare say may shed further light when I get to a copy. Paulturtle ( talk) 22:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
David Dutton does not offer a specific figure in his 1985 biography of Austen Chamberlain. The most commonly-quoted figure is 187-87, as published in classic works such as Beaverbrook's "Decline and Fall of Lloyd George", AJP Taylor's "English History 1914-45" and Blake's 1958 Bonar Law biog "The Unknown Prime Minister". This was the official number published in Volume 56 of "Gleanings & Memoranda", which Blake says was the official Conservative Central Office record at that time. In his 1999 biog of Bonar Law (p.328, detailed footnote on p.428), RTQ Adams says that the true figure is 187-88 with one abstention (Sir Robert Clough, MP for Keighley 1918-22 who does not appear to have made any other mark on history and does not even have a wiki article) and that the voting cards are, as discussed above, in the papers of J.C.C. Davidson. I assume Adams counted them carefully although he does not specifically say so. He also says that the result is incorrectly listed as 186-87 on the wrapping paper in which they are held. I think that's probably as authoritative as we are going to get. Paulturtle ( talk) 05:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Did not someone try to poison him in 1917? A reference, if true, would be useful. 2.31.36.103 ( talk) 10:05, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Is it correct that his period as MP in the House of Commons ended with his death? This may look highly questionable in view of the fact his peerage was granted 1 January 1945, qualifying him for the House of Lords. Was it the case that he had not put in his resignation from the constituency? Despite this technical question, Lloyd George still stands out among Prime Ministers as having enjoyed the longest unbroken career in the Commons representing the same constituency, 54 years. The peerage creation was unusual in that the peerage was granted while he was still MP - usually ex MPs are ennobled after resignation, retirement or defeat at their last general election. Cloptonson ( talk) 08:19, 10 July 2016 (UTC)