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This page states (or at least strongly implies) that Koresh was killed by the fire during the raid - however, the Branch Davidian page states he was killed by a single shot to the head. Which is it? DarkIye ( talk) 09:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
so purpose of talk section is to improve article, its hard to improve such garbage, ther is no mention of murders of law enforcement.
I have searched long and hard to find some backing for the claim that Sherri Jewell or Kiri Jewell's grandmother alleged that Kiri fabricated the incident of sexual molestation and lied to the Congressional hearing. All that I have found is that subsequent to the Congressional hearing, various non-notable sources (eg bulletin boards) have made claims that at the time of the incident that Kiri Jewell was alleging, she was actually living away from Mount Carmel. Trawling through the Congressional hearing documentation, the grandmother did not appear and counter her testimony. Her mother was one of the unfortunate victims of the fire at Mount Carmel and so never countered the testimony either. The best that can be tracked down is a standard line - repeated via BBs, unsourced -- to the effect that "Kiri Jewell, the 14-year-old girl whose tear-jerking testimony convinced many that the raid was justified, was not even with the Branch Davidians at the time she alleges that David Koresh abused her. [my emphasis] She was living with her mother and grandmother in California." In fact, Kiri testified that the attack took place in a motel room, not at Mount Carmel. Her father sought and was awarded temporary custody of her in december 1991 on the basis of the molestation, and the case was heard in full 24-25 February 1992, Jewell v Jewell, by Judge Taylor at St. Joseph courts, Niles, Michigan. Full custody was awarded to the father, David Jewell. The judge further forbade any contact, either direct or indirect, with any member of the branch Davidians save her mother, with visitation strictly supervised. These are verifiable facts, and the congressional testimony is a matter of public record. Here's the policy:
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I don't want an edit war, and I'm trying to be as reasonable as possible, even earlier leaving room for all concerned to maneouvre by tagging the grandmother comment {{fact}} and looking for a reference for it myself. But it seems that others wish to follow there own agenda here, even going so far as to imply I am somehow involved with a federal or government agency, "wearing an acronym" on my chest. I'm going to make the edit as per policy, removing the unsourced allegation. Furthermore, please bear in mind that while this article isn't a biography of a living person, the unreferenced statement is - and unless someone has a verifiable reference pointing out what Kiri's grandmother has said about her, then "controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." the statement must go until referenced.
I am going to ask for mediation or possibly WP:RfC on this matter, too. If I am unable to get my case across with the preceeding comment, then at the very least a third party really needs to be involved. Devious Viper 01:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
You are showing a blatant disregard for the facts of the case.
There is still a lot more that can be added to this biography, and I would have done so had I not been involved in this crusade of yours; eg his insistence that the FBI provide fresh milk for the children; statements made by eye witnesses and surviving children about his kindness. Devious Viper 10:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ernham. Hope you are well today. Okay, you stated: "had you bothered to watch the hearings yourself, you would have known that Jewell was "outted" both by her mother and grandmother for fabricating the supposed rape for attention." This was in the discussion that you keep blanking from your user talk page for some reason, and which can be read now at my talk page. You keep referring to the Congressional hearing as investigating or refuting Kiri Jewell's testimony. IT DID NOT. In fact, had you taken time to read the reports and transcripts, you would have seen that the response from Congress was:
David Koresh has never been a hero to me. I think it's obvious that he broke laws. In my
view, if he'd have surrendered, at some point, the greatest loss of life which did occur may well not have occurred. And I want to say to you, Kiri, personally, that I'm very sorry that you were not protected from David Koresh. I'm very sorry that you were not protected during this hearing, because it could have been arranged that you testify with no cameras going if we had
known what your testimony would have been, but I can only say to you I'm very glad you weren't in that compound in February of 1993, and later when it burned down."
( Steven Harvey Schiff, member of the United States House of Representatives)
Devious Viper 11:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the section referring to Kiri Jewell's testimony should contain the unsourced qualifying statement that she has been accused of lying to Congress 13:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia policy, unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material must be immediately removed from biographies of living persons Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material, especially if potentially libelous. This is not a biography of Kiri Jewell (the living person in question), but that's no reason to allow unsourced potentially libelous statements to sit around. If and when a reliable source can be found to support the allegation, it can be reinserted at that point. PubliusFL 17:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, now I understand what you're talking about. You didn't watch the hearings, as you stated earlier, you watched Waco:Rules of Engagement. Specifically this exchange:
"Do you doubt the testimony of Kiri Jewell? Did you hear about that?"
"Yes, I did."
"You doubt that?"
"Yes."
"Do you doubt that, Mr. Zimmerman?"
"Yes, sir. Do you know why?"
"Yeah, you can tell me why."
"We didn't learn of that the first time until she testified at this hearing. She, she's . . . that of kind of claim that has been made for some time. Her own mother didn't believe that."
"Right."
"There's been doubts about contradictory statements that she's made in the past. Now, it may be 100 percent true."
"You're wasting my time. My time is up. In my judgment, in many ways, these witnesses are trying to deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact about David Koresh."
Forty seconds of the hearing, and never raised again. Zimmerman unwittingly backs up the fact that the allegation had been made before, then speaks on behalf of the dead mother; but Zimmerman is an attorney and realises the dangerous legal thin ice he's about to step on and states quite clearly: "Now, it may be 100% true"
And ten seconds earlier he said Jewell was making contradictory statements???
And you think an attorney defending his client by suggesting there is doubt - without any evidence - about an allegation levelled at him, is reliable source?? Well, let's run with this, see where it goes. There is a section full of reliably sourced and referenced evidence that Koresh was a paedophile and rapist. If you think that it serves NPOV to add, "While admitting that "it may be 100 percent true", Steve Schneider's attorney expressed doubt over the veracity of Jewell's allegations aginst Koresh", then go right on and do it. In fact, I'll do it for you. Happily. Devious Viper 10:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Ernham, an encyclopaedia requires subjectivity, not your complicity to conspiracy.
It would help if the editors adding or reverting this change could QUOTE the underlying source exactly, so there's no question about what it says. Wjhonson 17:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, whatever. Make it up as you go along. You just ignore the evidence from, eg Bruce Perry. The world-reknowned medical and psychological team that put together... er, shoddy constantly changing testimony. Devious Viper ( talk · contribs) 23:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Ernham, seeing as the majority of developing countries are now criminalising the smacking of children, let alone belting the s--- out of them with a paddle, your "argument", or lack of, is both ridiculous and fallacious. Further, if you actually engage with gender studies, sociology and criminology, you will see paedophilia, and pseudo-paedophilia, is just a little bit more dynamic than your "understanding" of the issues and that whether or not enough evidence exists to convict the man in a court of law isn't the point.
You don’t see that this was an irresistible opportunity to the Jesuits? They have spies in every branch of government and church organization, and regularly cause divisions and trouble among Protestants, their sworn enemy.
The Branch Davidians became especially vulnerable after the dispute over the leadership and ownership of Mount Carmel. Then in 1987 some fanatic joined, (probably a Jesuit spy, the name was Mark Brealt), contended for leadership in 1989, and was disfellowshipped. There was a divorce and custody battle which gave Brealt an opportunity to give his false testimony in court, making Koresh look like a pedophile and rapist, and the people to look like brainwashed fanatics. (watch “[ Wako: The Big Lie]”)
Koresh already had too many enemies that he never asked for. Does anyone think they would not have had guns under his circumstance? The man saw how things where going and was bracing himself for a big attack, and probably living every day as though it where his last.
I can imagine important Jesuit leaders worldwide clamoring to hear the news, canceling appointments to organize things against the Branch Davidians, to take full advantage of this juicy opportunity. Many things where accomplished for the Pope here.
So you have these Catholics claiming to be ex-Davidians testifying of sexual abuse on the ranch. No doubt they where told by their Jesuit leaders they would shave years off their time in Purgatory for their faithful service to the Pope. It was a bad cover, because the girl who gave her false testimony wore make-up and the Davidian women had a very long tradition of wearing no make-up, (notice the women at the compound, including David’s wife). And the other young man who said David spanked his child in front of him for 30-40 minutes? That’s ridiculous. Ask that man about any subject of bible prophecy and I guarantee you he will not be able to tell you. Where are these false witnesses today? To understand the way the Jesuits have operated for the last 350 years, you have to check out Alberto Rivera’s http://www.chick.com/comicimages/0112/0112_allinone.jpg And here are videos by another man who was assassinated for exposing the Jesuits, 1 2 3
All this was said after all had died and where no longer able to defend themselves. All died but the Jesuit spies of course.
Of course those in control of the media will do whatever it takes to make these people look really bad, or else the public might sympathize with the Davidians and start to question the Legislation.
So who wins in this? What is the message? The message I see is “if you study your bible seriously you will join a cult and be killed and defamed in the public eye”. Therefore it’s safest to just trust the Priesthood and the Powers That Be, and just don’t ask questions and don’t get too serious about the bible. The Catholic Church smells like a rose and the Seventh-Day Adventist church looks like a cult, and the practice of studying the bible seriously seems like a dangerous thing. That’s what the Papacy has been teaching all through the dark ages, that it’s dangerous to let the common people study the bible, they will take it out of context and begin plucking out their eyes because of certain verses. They need to just trust their priests.
http://www.skepticfiles.org/waco/seals.htm <-- This is a pretty good bible study, not the work of a sex fiend. Serious bible students like this do not become so deranged. That’s what the Papacy would like you to think. The Bible and the Papacy have always been sworn enemies.
Matthew 23:34-35 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
The white robes are a vindication before the world that the martyrs where not “heretics”, but the true servants of God. This verse states clearly that there will be another inquisition before the Second Coming of Christ. The Waco incident was just a foreshadow.
The wounded beast is Rome; the image is the image of Rome, another Church / State alliance totally forsaking our rights and freedoms in the interest of national security. Oh, we’ve seen this so many times in history. Rush4hire 16:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
What the shit is the above post and how is it relevant to anything, ever? 70.113.67.75 ( talk) 05:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:F:4C1B:0:0:0:1 ( talk) 21:05, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
There is one paragraph in the article that should either be removed or changed to reflect the facts. It says:
The children were taught that Koresh's mission was to lead them into the final battle that would end the world and take them onto eternal glory. They used to chant: "We are soldiers in the army. We've got to fight. Some day we have to die. We have to hold up the blood-stained banner. We have to hold it up until we die."[38]
The "chant" they claim to have been using sounds rather macabre and death-idealizing, but it is actually a youth praise song still in use by the
Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is a song of commitment using the metaphor of the Christian soldier, and has nothing to do with Branch Davidians or David Koresh, except perhaps that they/he apparently borrowed the song. The complete lyrics make the Christian context more obvious:
We Are Soldiers
Verse:
(Insert name or group here) was a soldier
He had his hand on the Gospel plow
One day he got old, he couldn't fight anymore
He said, "Stand up and fight anyhow."
Chorus:
We are soldiers in the army
We have to fight although we have to die
We have to hold up the blood-stained banner
We have to hold it up until we die
(Repeat, changing name each time)
It should be obvious from the complete lyrics and the fact that this song is sung in a denomination that rejected Koresh that this is not a reference to Koresh's mission. The army mentioned is the Christian army, the fighting is spiritual warfare, and the banner is the blood-stained banner of Christ. If they had sung "Onward, Christian Soldiers," would anyone have considered that a reference to Koresh's mission? Taking the complete lyrics and meaning into consideration, the song quote should be removed as unrelated. I think that the statement introducing the song quote is or appears to be based on the song itself, and therefore that it too should be removed, along with the footnote. -- Cromwellt| talk 21:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)(login problems)
Yes, "Koresh" is the transliteration of Hebrew for the name we usually spell "Cyrus" in English, however as far as I can tell, it does NOT mean "death" or anything so related in either Greek or Hebrew/Aramaic, and I can't think what other languages would be relevant to check. In fact, from looking at more of the transcribed conversation it is clear that Koresh made up that meaning. Not to mention that Christ is NOT the rider of the pale horse (Rev 6:7-8). To avoid confusion, perhaps this should be noted in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.88.157.29 ( talk) 02:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
During a personal phone conversation I had with Koresh, I would say around 1990, he told me personally that Koresh meant death. You could say that he "made it up," but that is not really accurately describing what he actually thought he was doing. He believed he was an inspired prophet of God so it would be perfectly natural for him to have had a revelation of the kind that allowed him to say that Koresh means death. He said it was the sound people make when they die. Dbunds ( talk) 14:57, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
— According to Strong's Hebrew Lexicon, "Koresh" means "posses thou the furnace", which makes it somewhat prophetic. ____ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:1BA0:3C00:C3E:F73B:9631:6C30 ( talk) 13:11, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The article does not consistently use a last name, switching between Koresh and Howell, seemingly at random. It was a little confusing for me at first, so I was wondering if it would make more sense to just choose one (or at least use them more consistently, for example "Howell" for early life and "Koresh" for after he took that name).- Andrew c 05:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
We have to keep in mind also that the 4 ATF agents who died just happened to be former body guards for Bill Clinton. What would you do if you where Bill and you needed these guys killed to cover up for something? You wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity like this? Well no one's perfect. We read in the bible about how King David had a man killed to cover up for his adultery in 2 Samuel ch 11. People in power do this kind of stuff regularly. They sacrifice the lives of a few for what they consider to be "the good of the many".
"it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." (John 11:50) You can read on this page about alot of people asociated with Clinton who mysteriously died. -Unsigned
Ahhh, the right wing conspiracy lives on, complete with Bible thumping and Clinton bashing. It's like the 90s never ended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.67.75 ( talk) 05:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
This is a note to inform all interested watchers of this article that Wikisource has chosen the Branch Davidians and Waco Siege as their Collaboration of the Week. This means that we are spending this week collecting, copying and formatting Public Domain documents related to the church and its 1993 siege. This includes speeches by David Koresh, Federal documents in the aftermath of the siege, the charges against Lon Horiuchi and the surviving church members, and early church documents whose copyright have expired.
We would encourage you all to come help us, if you have any questions, feel free to leave a question on my talk page - either on Wikisource or Wikipedia! I hope to see some of you there, helping us document the primary sources for future research and historical analysis! Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The article says that the compound was "raided by ATF" but doesn't say why. As I recall, the reason claimed by ATF had to do with a large volume of suspected illegal weapons. Was it claims of rape or child abuse? It doesn't even mention possibilities. I learned very little from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 ( talk) 19:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this edit [2] which states "Curiously, or carelessly, the press reports have been stating she was sixty years old, which would have made her ten years old at Mr. Koresh's birth." The source does include her age at sixty, although the original source dealing with the murder states she was sixty-four. Since the original source agrees with the sources detailing David Koresh's birth in the article, it seems to be accurate. The added sentence seems to be OR, assigning motives to an error in the press. I'll leave it here for other editors to discuss, if it actually adds something to the page, feel free to add it back. Dayewalker ( talk) 05:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
A lot of information about David Koresh's mother seems to get muddled in the media. Like this source while listing it in the title as Haldeman (which seems correct since it seems to be a name) lists that Sky News, it's original source (which I actually can't find) consistantly listed her name 3 times as Halderman. Due to this I'm not sure if I should just redirect this mispel to this article? Anyway, do we know any more information about her murderer, sister Beverly Clark? Bonnie Clark's full name was Bonnie Sue Clark but she seemed to have omitted the middle name when changing to Bonnie Clark Haldeman (changed her last name to a middle name). So it makes me wonder if the Clark sister's parents also gave Beverly a middle name. Tyciol ( talk) 17:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I have some issue with using Colin Wilson's 'The Devil's Party' as a source. First off it is not an academic book--it is not properly referenced. There are no foot notes or any citation for the numerous quotes he uses. Wilson's writes the book based off the assumption that pervert/sex craziness is related to becoming a Messiah-contender and this shows greatly in this article. Almost everything about Koresh's early life in this article concerns some sort of sexual malfeasance, almost to the point of silliness. Does this article really have to rely on Wilson's questionable book to talk about Koresh's early life? Peter Napkin Dance Party ( talk) 22:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have any info on whether this is spelled Jack Zimmerman or Jack Zimmermann? I found a lot of sources with the single 'n' but for example this source lists it with 2. Also I found this so I am inclined to think this is the more accurate spelling (plus it comes with a middle initial!). The summary says "Mr. Zimmermann was counsel for a leader of the Branch Davidian religious group involved in the shootout with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the subsequent 51 day stand-off with the FBI near Waco, Texas" so I am inclined to think this is the correct person. Tyciol ( talk) 17:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I remember German media claiming in 1993 that Koresh was a former rock singer. Is that so? -- 217.232.202.128 ( talk) 16:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Vernon Howell (David Koresh) played guitar and sang in church services at Mt Carmel; his band did play a few times at clubs in Waco; former members (such as David Thibodeau) have written that he recruited them through music. His status as a "rock singer" was very localised. Naaman Brown ( talk) 16:08, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I saw Koresh play acoustic guitar at Chelsea Street Pub, a tavern-type pub at the main mall on Waco. Late 80s. I recall very clearly people mentioning that the guitarist was the leader of the "hippie cult" that lived out on a ranch a ways out of Waco. I was vaguely aware that there was indeed some compound in the area with a religious group. I was a student at Baylor at the time. Couldn't believe it years later when the incident took place. 98.163.90.86 ( talk) 02:59, 13 November 2010 (UTC)Vainamoinen
In the "Raid and Siege" section, Waco: The Rules of Engagement is cited for saying that: 1) the FBI deliberately set the fire with incendiary devices; 2) FBI sharpshooters fired on those attempting to flee the fire. Strong claims require strong citations, and not one sensational documentary. I would think these claims should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petzl ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
There are infrared recordings of something fired from ATF tank into compound ( on a PBS NOVA program). It looks distinctly like there was no firing from the compound to warrant it. It looked like a machine gun, but, since I don't know exact configuration of the tank, it could have been tear gas or something. The muzzle flash in unmistakable. I wish I had the exact year and date for the program--I will simply google NOVA and see what comes up.
This article is Very well-written--shows Both sides for a change. However, the ATF Could have taken Koresh Peacefully several times when he left the compound on his bicycle. The article should also mention the original warrant was for illicit sex with minors, then the ATF "pencilled-in: "firearms". They knew no Texas judge would ok a warrant for guns.the Texas authorities admitted Koresh was "wierd" but did not want to get involved, as they knew just being "odd" wasn't a crime. 68.231.184.217 ( talk) 22:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I believe that by using the term "sleeping with" in the fourth paragraph of the second section it is misleading and in effect minimizing Koresh's crimes. In the state of Texas it is considered rape to have sex with a twelve year old and it would also be considered rape to have sex with a fourteen year old before marriage. I have changed the wording in the paragraph to reflect this. 74.192.163.33 ( talk) 18:49, 24 November 2010 (UTC)Syd15
Sounds like deliberate trolling to me. The article is a mess and in no way gives an unbiased outline of David Koresh. The articles is a shame of an encyclopedic entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasonmchristos ( talk • contribs) 13:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I would like to call attention to the following quote in the article. "Despite his dyslexia, by the age of 11, Koresh had memorized the entire New Testament."
This is very probably not true. I joined David Koresh and his movement in 1984 and was involved for 5 years. During that entire time he never once demonstrated any memorization of the New Testament. When he needed to refer to a particular text, he had to look it up just like anybody else in the group.
The very likely source of this story is Koresh's mother, Bonnie and she probably came to believe this because of Koresh himself. Koresh had a very definite "showoff" component to his personality and it is not hard to understand why an 11 year old boy, who was feeling picked on and humiliated would want to impress people with something. I suspect that he demonstrated to his mother around this time that he had memorized some portion of the bible and this tale grew in the telling.
Whatever the source of the story, based on my personal experience it is almost certainly false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbunds ( talk • contribs) 14:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it's all that far-fetched. While it perhaps sounds impressive to Westerners, in the Muslim world the memorization of the ENTIRE Qur'an is a popular aspiration, and there are yearly competitions for boys of middle school age, see: Hafiz (Quran), though it says the current number of such people is in the tens of millions, it doesn't appear to cite the source. But it's a common enough thing, and the Qur'an is even longer than the New Testament, and those memorizing it are frequently completely unable to converse in any dialect of Arabic, let alone the Classical 6th Century prose of the Qur'an. So if millions of children can memorize a holy book and recite it in an unfamiliar tongue, I don't think there's any real reason to assume that Koresh MUST have been lying. In addition, the infamous fundamentalist Baptist pastor Steve Anderson has memorized much of the Old and New Testaments, despite not having had a day's enrollment in seminary or any other post-secondary school. PenitentWhaler ( talk) 02:03, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I didn't say it was far-fetched. Of course people can memorize anything if they put into the effort. The point I want to make is, I WAS THERE. I sat and listened to Koresh for literally thousands of hours and not one single time did he demonstrate any New Testament memorization. This EYEWITNESS testimony makes it unlikely that he actually had memorized the New Testament. Not impossible mind you, just unlikely. Dbunds ( talk) 14:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
It's alleged that David Koresh called 911 after they've been shot at by the ATF? Does anyone know more. -- 41.151.71.56 ( talk) 11:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
I believe there was more than one 911 call made from the compound during the initial firefight, and one of them was from Koresh. At any rate, from what I recall the 911 operator rather immediately put him through to someone who was a deputy sherriff (according to Frontline). I believe this is the same phone call where a cease fire was negotiated and the ATF asked to pick up their wounded without being fired upon. There is a 1995 "Frontline" Report/Reprospective on Waco on youtube. It has audio of the phone call. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.194.193.129 ( talk) 06:46, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The 2nd paragraph of the "Early Life" section says "Koresh described his early childhood as lonely, and it has been alleged that he was once gang raped by older boys when he was 8", but these claims are never made in the source that is cited as evidence. The citation given is for the 2nd entry on the reference list, a video called "Final 24 Episode on David Koresh". This episode of the "Final 24" series, widely available for free viewing online, never mentions or implies that Koresh might have been raped or otherwise abused sexually at any point in his life, nor does it say that Koresh described his early childhood as lonely. Another comment writer said that this page had been vandalized at some point; maybe this gang rape claim is a plausible-enough-sounding remnant of that vandalism accidentally left up. It is also possible that the author just cited the wrong source, but after searching online I was unable to find any corroborating evidence for the gang rape claim that did not reference this Wikipedia page, or the same Final 24 episode. If I knew how to use those "not in citation" markers (or whatever they're called), I would've done so, but I'm reluctant to just remove the entire sentence on suspicion that its false/vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.252.49 ( talk) 05:44, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment of the source; I haven't read any of Wilson's books, but this book, "Devil's Party", was self-published and, according to reviews online, contains no footnotes or citations at all to substantiate any of his claims. Colin Wilson writes mainly on so-called "paranormal" topics (e.g. Atlantis, mysticism, psychics, alien contactees), and has been criticized (in Amazon reviews) for unscrupulously accepting supernatural claims as fact. Even if this book does in fact contain the claims that Koresh was "gang raped at age 8" or that he described his early childhood as "lonely", these could have been invented whole cloth by the author and without citations we have no way of verifying them. A small section of the book is available for viewing on Amazon, and I can verify that this sample section contains no footnotes or citations, and that the section on Koresh that I was able to read contained unsubstantiated conjecture interspersed with obvious facts and sweeping generalizations (e.g. "most people were impatient with the 'softly, softly' tactics of the authorities, and looked forward to the day when Koresh would be standing in court and sentenced to a long term of imprisonment"). Given the seemingly unreliable nature of this source, and the fact that "Devil's Party" seems to be the only source for this claim, I think removing the "gang rape" claim would be reasonable. The only place - other than Wikipedia - where I've seen this claim repeated is in articles that reference this Wikipedia page as the source of the claim, and in my research, Wilson seems to be the only person to have "discovered" this event from Koresh's early life. I don't want to edit the article without approval, so I'll wait for a response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belecassatt ( talk • contribs) 07:54, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
A large part of the article seems to be based on this book, without any supporting references... is it a reliable source? More references are needed to back up the claims made, especially since the book isn't an academic source. Zambelo; talk 22:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
It would be helpful to me to know more about Koresh' genealogy - ie. more than just who his parents were. I myself am quite severely mentally ill, and while not a cult leader, take quite an interest in studying cult phenomena. There is quite a good chance that he and I are blood relatives, as my father's side of the family are all Seventh Day Adventists, and my great aunt is from waco.
My father did quite a lot of genealogical research. Were I to start with my father's work, and were someone - I will do it if no one else has - to dig up Koresh' genealogy, I would like to see whether our lineages intersect, and if so, where.
How is he considered a terroist when he wasn't the aggressive. What about government sponsored terroism? -- 166.170.57.194 ( talk) 02:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC)-
All right. Now that we're both here, let's hope that this discussion doesn't escalate. Government-sponsored terrorism probably isn't applicable either because it isn't something like, say, Lockerbie, where the Libyan government actively abetted it (indeed, it made everything happen). This would probably be more in line with a grand fuck-up (pardon my French) by the government. You can consider him as not a terrorist (indeed, I'm leaning towards your position) but I'd rather wait for more consensus on this. Dschslava ( talk) 02:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Pinging @ 166.170.57.194: Dschslava ( talk) 02:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
""(Not sure why people think only non-Christians can be terrorists.)"", Which leads me to believe he's only doing it for political purposes. Also considering he was the one who originally added Christian terrorism to the page as well as the waco page. I would like to hear why he fells like misusing the articles to attack Christians.-- Fruitloop11 ( talk) 07:47, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph:
The age in consent in Texas was 17 at the time, as per a contemporary The New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all Samboy ( talk) 12:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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This section is incorrect at some points:
First of all my source? Myself. My name is David Bunds. I was raised a Branch Davidian and was a member of his group for 5 years.
1. Vernon Howell discovered the Branch Davidians as a result of a personal crisis he was going through regarding his ex-girlfriend Sandy Berlin. She was the daughter of the Pastor of the SDA church he was attending in Tyler, Texas at the time. He showed up at Mount Carmel Center in July, 1981. My wife, who was 12 at the time, was there with Rachel Jones and they together were called by Perry Jones to come and meet Vernon. He was 21 at the time, not 22. The 15 year old girl that he had gotten pregnant was Linda and that time he would have been when he was a bit younger, perhaps 20. He had not joined the Adventist church yet when he was involved with Linda.
2. "His band played a few times at clubs in Waco." This is incorrect. At this time, prior to his starting his prophetic ministry, Vernon did not have a band and never played in Waco. This was a few years later, after he had taken over Mount Carmel in 1988.
3. "Koresh also tried pursuing his own record company". Incorrect. At this time in his life he was focused on becoming a prophet in the Branch Davidian movement and was not interested in starting a record company. I am not aware of his ever wanting to do this, but if he did pursue such a thing, it would have been much later, around 1987 I would say, when he had the semi-hit song, "Mad Man Living In Waco." He did have a production company called Cyrus Productions, but I would not call it a record company. I really was not much of anything and never went anywhere. Dbunds ( talk) 15:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
@ 78.26: The article David Koresh has just been heavily attacked by a vandal, can you undo the vandalism. Catfurball ( talk) 18:33, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Raped. He raped a girl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.152.151.194 ( talk) 03:41, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Myself and my half brothers and half sister are linked via the courts recognition as rightful heirs and reiterated by my grandmother (Bonnie) who was at first hesitant to expose his “house of David” (Cyrus, sky, and myself were the only ones to endure persistent and excessive physical punishment at his hand where he made me so fearful of him I would try and laugh and clap while shaking and crying which upset his egos paradigm wherein the love he deserved and adoration was marked by his making his time and attention a currency of sorts. We were supposed to adore him). While he insisted our mothers leave the father entry blank on our birth certificates, I couldn’t look more like him and I have dna tests. My brother has participated in the programs for narrative reinforcement to make their absolute failure to materialize even a semblance of competence somehow my both evil and insane fathers fault entirely, in spite of the truth being so simple: Rodrigues informed them the element of surprise was lost and yet they contradict themselves so emphatically with contentions that aren’t the least bit rational and failed to follow protocol. Even if Rodrigues had claimed they appeared fearful and were praying in disorganized apprehensive catatonia or whatever it was they twisted his meaning by, the simple reality is that they never did any real work to truly advance the specificity this operation required for the safety of innocents. Somehow the victimization of the dead has been their go to condemnation. How dare they have the incompetence to “lose” the front door, to lose footage that would settle the initial questions… while my anecdotes and bias might seem to be predictable, I don’t think the ATF did right by their mens safety and the way their head lies through his teeth to my brother on a tv special. It is simple, my father answered the door unarmed and with gestures and and a cadence that when recalled by a witness was without an excessive uncharacteristic credulity required compared to that of the man who served the botched warrant. Be honest: they lied and behaved as if this were a simple drug running arms operation, and their best strategy was to try and behave as much like the Babylon my father had predicted they would. They almost did everything in their power to seal everyone’s fate. I don’t need to identify the flaws and duties of those who perished, but those who had to carry out these acts and were haunted by the moral absence and playing dumb… sorry for the tangential droning. I’m currently planning on collecting my mothers stories who is one of the only people to have an account of my father long before the highly guarded and… I’ll rework this later and provide a more ordered and concise, opinion free, source based draft 76.174.199.217 ( talk) 05:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Is that something he had previously indicated he wanted (equalling Jesus Christ)? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:753A:39BE:71D8:D020 ( talk) 16:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
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This page states (or at least strongly implies) that Koresh was killed by the fire during the raid - however, the Branch Davidian page states he was killed by a single shot to the head. Which is it? DarkIye ( talk) 09:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
so purpose of talk section is to improve article, its hard to improve such garbage, ther is no mention of murders of law enforcement.
I have searched long and hard to find some backing for the claim that Sherri Jewell or Kiri Jewell's grandmother alleged that Kiri fabricated the incident of sexual molestation and lied to the Congressional hearing. All that I have found is that subsequent to the Congressional hearing, various non-notable sources (eg bulletin boards) have made claims that at the time of the incident that Kiri Jewell was alleging, she was actually living away from Mount Carmel. Trawling through the Congressional hearing documentation, the grandmother did not appear and counter her testimony. Her mother was one of the unfortunate victims of the fire at Mount Carmel and so never countered the testimony either. The best that can be tracked down is a standard line - repeated via BBs, unsourced -- to the effect that "Kiri Jewell, the 14-year-old girl whose tear-jerking testimony convinced many that the raid was justified, was not even with the Branch Davidians at the time she alleges that David Koresh abused her. [my emphasis] She was living with her mother and grandmother in California." In fact, Kiri testified that the attack took place in a motel room, not at Mount Carmel. Her father sought and was awarded temporary custody of her in december 1991 on the basis of the molestation, and the case was heard in full 24-25 February 1992, Jewell v Jewell, by Judge Taylor at St. Joseph courts, Niles, Michigan. Full custody was awarded to the father, David Jewell. The judge further forbade any contact, either direct or indirect, with any member of the branch Davidians save her mother, with visitation strictly supervised. These are verifiable facts, and the congressional testimony is a matter of public record. Here's the policy:
|
I don't want an edit war, and I'm trying to be as reasonable as possible, even earlier leaving room for all concerned to maneouvre by tagging the grandmother comment {{fact}} and looking for a reference for it myself. But it seems that others wish to follow there own agenda here, even going so far as to imply I am somehow involved with a federal or government agency, "wearing an acronym" on my chest. I'm going to make the edit as per policy, removing the unsourced allegation. Furthermore, please bear in mind that while this article isn't a biography of a living person, the unreferenced statement is - and unless someone has a verifiable reference pointing out what Kiri's grandmother has said about her, then "controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." the statement must go until referenced.
I am going to ask for mediation or possibly WP:RfC on this matter, too. If I am unable to get my case across with the preceeding comment, then at the very least a third party really needs to be involved. Devious Viper 01:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
You are showing a blatant disregard for the facts of the case.
There is still a lot more that can be added to this biography, and I would have done so had I not been involved in this crusade of yours; eg his insistence that the FBI provide fresh milk for the children; statements made by eye witnesses and surviving children about his kindness. Devious Viper 10:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ernham. Hope you are well today. Okay, you stated: "had you bothered to watch the hearings yourself, you would have known that Jewell was "outted" both by her mother and grandmother for fabricating the supposed rape for attention." This was in the discussion that you keep blanking from your user talk page for some reason, and which can be read now at my talk page. You keep referring to the Congressional hearing as investigating or refuting Kiri Jewell's testimony. IT DID NOT. In fact, had you taken time to read the reports and transcripts, you would have seen that the response from Congress was:
David Koresh has never been a hero to me. I think it's obvious that he broke laws. In my
view, if he'd have surrendered, at some point, the greatest loss of life which did occur may well not have occurred. And I want to say to you, Kiri, personally, that I'm very sorry that you were not protected from David Koresh. I'm very sorry that you were not protected during this hearing, because it could have been arranged that you testify with no cameras going if we had
known what your testimony would have been, but I can only say to you I'm very glad you weren't in that compound in February of 1993, and later when it burned down."
( Steven Harvey Schiff, member of the United States House of Representatives)
Devious Viper 11:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the section referring to Kiri Jewell's testimony should contain the unsourced qualifying statement that she has been accused of lying to Congress 13:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia policy, unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material must be immediately removed from biographies of living persons Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material, especially if potentially libelous. This is not a biography of Kiri Jewell (the living person in question), but that's no reason to allow unsourced potentially libelous statements to sit around. If and when a reliable source can be found to support the allegation, it can be reinserted at that point. PubliusFL 17:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, now I understand what you're talking about. You didn't watch the hearings, as you stated earlier, you watched Waco:Rules of Engagement. Specifically this exchange:
"Do you doubt the testimony of Kiri Jewell? Did you hear about that?"
"Yes, I did."
"You doubt that?"
"Yes."
"Do you doubt that, Mr. Zimmerman?"
"Yes, sir. Do you know why?"
"Yeah, you can tell me why."
"We didn't learn of that the first time until she testified at this hearing. She, she's . . . that of kind of claim that has been made for some time. Her own mother didn't believe that."
"Right."
"There's been doubts about contradictory statements that she's made in the past. Now, it may be 100 percent true."
"You're wasting my time. My time is up. In my judgment, in many ways, these witnesses are trying to deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact about David Koresh."
Forty seconds of the hearing, and never raised again. Zimmerman unwittingly backs up the fact that the allegation had been made before, then speaks on behalf of the dead mother; but Zimmerman is an attorney and realises the dangerous legal thin ice he's about to step on and states quite clearly: "Now, it may be 100% true"
And ten seconds earlier he said Jewell was making contradictory statements???
And you think an attorney defending his client by suggesting there is doubt - without any evidence - about an allegation levelled at him, is reliable source?? Well, let's run with this, see where it goes. There is a section full of reliably sourced and referenced evidence that Koresh was a paedophile and rapist. If you think that it serves NPOV to add, "While admitting that "it may be 100 percent true", Steve Schneider's attorney expressed doubt over the veracity of Jewell's allegations aginst Koresh", then go right on and do it. In fact, I'll do it for you. Happily. Devious Viper 10:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Ernham, an encyclopaedia requires subjectivity, not your complicity to conspiracy.
It would help if the editors adding or reverting this change could QUOTE the underlying source exactly, so there's no question about what it says. Wjhonson 17:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, whatever. Make it up as you go along. You just ignore the evidence from, eg Bruce Perry. The world-reknowned medical and psychological team that put together... er, shoddy constantly changing testimony. Devious Viper ( talk · contribs) 23:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Ernham, seeing as the majority of developing countries are now criminalising the smacking of children, let alone belting the s--- out of them with a paddle, your "argument", or lack of, is both ridiculous and fallacious. Further, if you actually engage with gender studies, sociology and criminology, you will see paedophilia, and pseudo-paedophilia, is just a little bit more dynamic than your "understanding" of the issues and that whether or not enough evidence exists to convict the man in a court of law isn't the point.
You don’t see that this was an irresistible opportunity to the Jesuits? They have spies in every branch of government and church organization, and regularly cause divisions and trouble among Protestants, their sworn enemy.
The Branch Davidians became especially vulnerable after the dispute over the leadership and ownership of Mount Carmel. Then in 1987 some fanatic joined, (probably a Jesuit spy, the name was Mark Brealt), contended for leadership in 1989, and was disfellowshipped. There was a divorce and custody battle which gave Brealt an opportunity to give his false testimony in court, making Koresh look like a pedophile and rapist, and the people to look like brainwashed fanatics. (watch “[ Wako: The Big Lie]”)
Koresh already had too many enemies that he never asked for. Does anyone think they would not have had guns under his circumstance? The man saw how things where going and was bracing himself for a big attack, and probably living every day as though it where his last.
I can imagine important Jesuit leaders worldwide clamoring to hear the news, canceling appointments to organize things against the Branch Davidians, to take full advantage of this juicy opportunity. Many things where accomplished for the Pope here.
So you have these Catholics claiming to be ex-Davidians testifying of sexual abuse on the ranch. No doubt they where told by their Jesuit leaders they would shave years off their time in Purgatory for their faithful service to the Pope. It was a bad cover, because the girl who gave her false testimony wore make-up and the Davidian women had a very long tradition of wearing no make-up, (notice the women at the compound, including David’s wife). And the other young man who said David spanked his child in front of him for 30-40 minutes? That’s ridiculous. Ask that man about any subject of bible prophecy and I guarantee you he will not be able to tell you. Where are these false witnesses today? To understand the way the Jesuits have operated for the last 350 years, you have to check out Alberto Rivera’s http://www.chick.com/comicimages/0112/0112_allinone.jpg And here are videos by another man who was assassinated for exposing the Jesuits, 1 2 3
All this was said after all had died and where no longer able to defend themselves. All died but the Jesuit spies of course.
Of course those in control of the media will do whatever it takes to make these people look really bad, or else the public might sympathize with the Davidians and start to question the Legislation.
So who wins in this? What is the message? The message I see is “if you study your bible seriously you will join a cult and be killed and defamed in the public eye”. Therefore it’s safest to just trust the Priesthood and the Powers That Be, and just don’t ask questions and don’t get too serious about the bible. The Catholic Church smells like a rose and the Seventh-Day Adventist church looks like a cult, and the practice of studying the bible seriously seems like a dangerous thing. That’s what the Papacy has been teaching all through the dark ages, that it’s dangerous to let the common people study the bible, they will take it out of context and begin plucking out their eyes because of certain verses. They need to just trust their priests.
http://www.skepticfiles.org/waco/seals.htm <-- This is a pretty good bible study, not the work of a sex fiend. Serious bible students like this do not become so deranged. That’s what the Papacy would like you to think. The Bible and the Papacy have always been sworn enemies.
Matthew 23:34-35 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
The white robes are a vindication before the world that the martyrs where not “heretics”, but the true servants of God. This verse states clearly that there will be another inquisition before the Second Coming of Christ. The Waco incident was just a foreshadow.
The wounded beast is Rome; the image is the image of Rome, another Church / State alliance totally forsaking our rights and freedoms in the interest of national security. Oh, we’ve seen this so many times in history. Rush4hire 16:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
What the shit is the above post and how is it relevant to anything, ever? 70.113.67.75 ( talk) 05:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:F:4C1B:0:0:0:1 ( talk) 21:05, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
There is one paragraph in the article that should either be removed or changed to reflect the facts. It says:
The children were taught that Koresh's mission was to lead them into the final battle that would end the world and take them onto eternal glory. They used to chant: "We are soldiers in the army. We've got to fight. Some day we have to die. We have to hold up the blood-stained banner. We have to hold it up until we die."[38]
The "chant" they claim to have been using sounds rather macabre and death-idealizing, but it is actually a youth praise song still in use by the
Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is a song of commitment using the metaphor of the Christian soldier, and has nothing to do with Branch Davidians or David Koresh, except perhaps that they/he apparently borrowed the song. The complete lyrics make the Christian context more obvious:
We Are Soldiers
Verse:
(Insert name or group here) was a soldier
He had his hand on the Gospel plow
One day he got old, he couldn't fight anymore
He said, "Stand up and fight anyhow."
Chorus:
We are soldiers in the army
We have to fight although we have to die
We have to hold up the blood-stained banner
We have to hold it up until we die
(Repeat, changing name each time)
It should be obvious from the complete lyrics and the fact that this song is sung in a denomination that rejected Koresh that this is not a reference to Koresh's mission. The army mentioned is the Christian army, the fighting is spiritual warfare, and the banner is the blood-stained banner of Christ. If they had sung "Onward, Christian Soldiers," would anyone have considered that a reference to Koresh's mission? Taking the complete lyrics and meaning into consideration, the song quote should be removed as unrelated. I think that the statement introducing the song quote is or appears to be based on the song itself, and therefore that it too should be removed, along with the footnote. -- Cromwellt| talk 21:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)(login problems)
Yes, "Koresh" is the transliteration of Hebrew for the name we usually spell "Cyrus" in English, however as far as I can tell, it does NOT mean "death" or anything so related in either Greek or Hebrew/Aramaic, and I can't think what other languages would be relevant to check. In fact, from looking at more of the transcribed conversation it is clear that Koresh made up that meaning. Not to mention that Christ is NOT the rider of the pale horse (Rev 6:7-8). To avoid confusion, perhaps this should be noted in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.88.157.29 ( talk) 02:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
During a personal phone conversation I had with Koresh, I would say around 1990, he told me personally that Koresh meant death. You could say that he "made it up," but that is not really accurately describing what he actually thought he was doing. He believed he was an inspired prophet of God so it would be perfectly natural for him to have had a revelation of the kind that allowed him to say that Koresh means death. He said it was the sound people make when they die. Dbunds ( talk) 14:57, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
— According to Strong's Hebrew Lexicon, "Koresh" means "posses thou the furnace", which makes it somewhat prophetic. ____ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:1BA0:3C00:C3E:F73B:9631:6C30 ( talk) 13:11, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The article does not consistently use a last name, switching between Koresh and Howell, seemingly at random. It was a little confusing for me at first, so I was wondering if it would make more sense to just choose one (or at least use them more consistently, for example "Howell" for early life and "Koresh" for after he took that name).- Andrew c 05:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
We have to keep in mind also that the 4 ATF agents who died just happened to be former body guards for Bill Clinton. What would you do if you where Bill and you needed these guys killed to cover up for something? You wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity like this? Well no one's perfect. We read in the bible about how King David had a man killed to cover up for his adultery in 2 Samuel ch 11. People in power do this kind of stuff regularly. They sacrifice the lives of a few for what they consider to be "the good of the many".
"it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." (John 11:50) You can read on this page about alot of people asociated with Clinton who mysteriously died. -Unsigned
Ahhh, the right wing conspiracy lives on, complete with Bible thumping and Clinton bashing. It's like the 90s never ended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.67.75 ( talk) 05:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
This is a note to inform all interested watchers of this article that Wikisource has chosen the Branch Davidians and Waco Siege as their Collaboration of the Week. This means that we are spending this week collecting, copying and formatting Public Domain documents related to the church and its 1993 siege. This includes speeches by David Koresh, Federal documents in the aftermath of the siege, the charges against Lon Horiuchi and the surviving church members, and early church documents whose copyright have expired.
We would encourage you all to come help us, if you have any questions, feel free to leave a question on my talk page - either on Wikisource or Wikipedia! I hope to see some of you there, helping us document the primary sources for future research and historical analysis! Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The article says that the compound was "raided by ATF" but doesn't say why. As I recall, the reason claimed by ATF had to do with a large volume of suspected illegal weapons. Was it claims of rape or child abuse? It doesn't even mention possibilities. I learned very little from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 ( talk) 19:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this edit [2] which states "Curiously, or carelessly, the press reports have been stating she was sixty years old, which would have made her ten years old at Mr. Koresh's birth." The source does include her age at sixty, although the original source dealing with the murder states she was sixty-four. Since the original source agrees with the sources detailing David Koresh's birth in the article, it seems to be accurate. The added sentence seems to be OR, assigning motives to an error in the press. I'll leave it here for other editors to discuss, if it actually adds something to the page, feel free to add it back. Dayewalker ( talk) 05:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
A lot of information about David Koresh's mother seems to get muddled in the media. Like this source while listing it in the title as Haldeman (which seems correct since it seems to be a name) lists that Sky News, it's original source (which I actually can't find) consistantly listed her name 3 times as Halderman. Due to this I'm not sure if I should just redirect this mispel to this article? Anyway, do we know any more information about her murderer, sister Beverly Clark? Bonnie Clark's full name was Bonnie Sue Clark but she seemed to have omitted the middle name when changing to Bonnie Clark Haldeman (changed her last name to a middle name). So it makes me wonder if the Clark sister's parents also gave Beverly a middle name. Tyciol ( talk) 17:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I have some issue with using Colin Wilson's 'The Devil's Party' as a source. First off it is not an academic book--it is not properly referenced. There are no foot notes or any citation for the numerous quotes he uses. Wilson's writes the book based off the assumption that pervert/sex craziness is related to becoming a Messiah-contender and this shows greatly in this article. Almost everything about Koresh's early life in this article concerns some sort of sexual malfeasance, almost to the point of silliness. Does this article really have to rely on Wilson's questionable book to talk about Koresh's early life? Peter Napkin Dance Party ( talk) 22:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have any info on whether this is spelled Jack Zimmerman or Jack Zimmermann? I found a lot of sources with the single 'n' but for example this source lists it with 2. Also I found this so I am inclined to think this is the more accurate spelling (plus it comes with a middle initial!). The summary says "Mr. Zimmermann was counsel for a leader of the Branch Davidian religious group involved in the shootout with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the subsequent 51 day stand-off with the FBI near Waco, Texas" so I am inclined to think this is the correct person. Tyciol ( talk) 17:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I remember German media claiming in 1993 that Koresh was a former rock singer. Is that so? -- 217.232.202.128 ( talk) 16:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Vernon Howell (David Koresh) played guitar and sang in church services at Mt Carmel; his band did play a few times at clubs in Waco; former members (such as David Thibodeau) have written that he recruited them through music. His status as a "rock singer" was very localised. Naaman Brown ( talk) 16:08, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I saw Koresh play acoustic guitar at Chelsea Street Pub, a tavern-type pub at the main mall on Waco. Late 80s. I recall very clearly people mentioning that the guitarist was the leader of the "hippie cult" that lived out on a ranch a ways out of Waco. I was vaguely aware that there was indeed some compound in the area with a religious group. I was a student at Baylor at the time. Couldn't believe it years later when the incident took place. 98.163.90.86 ( talk) 02:59, 13 November 2010 (UTC)Vainamoinen
In the "Raid and Siege" section, Waco: The Rules of Engagement is cited for saying that: 1) the FBI deliberately set the fire with incendiary devices; 2) FBI sharpshooters fired on those attempting to flee the fire. Strong claims require strong citations, and not one sensational documentary. I would think these claims should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petzl ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
There are infrared recordings of something fired from ATF tank into compound ( on a PBS NOVA program). It looks distinctly like there was no firing from the compound to warrant it. It looked like a machine gun, but, since I don't know exact configuration of the tank, it could have been tear gas or something. The muzzle flash in unmistakable. I wish I had the exact year and date for the program--I will simply google NOVA and see what comes up.
This article is Very well-written--shows Both sides for a change. However, the ATF Could have taken Koresh Peacefully several times when he left the compound on his bicycle. The article should also mention the original warrant was for illicit sex with minors, then the ATF "pencilled-in: "firearms". They knew no Texas judge would ok a warrant for guns.the Texas authorities admitted Koresh was "wierd" but did not want to get involved, as they knew just being "odd" wasn't a crime. 68.231.184.217 ( talk) 22:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I believe that by using the term "sleeping with" in the fourth paragraph of the second section it is misleading and in effect minimizing Koresh's crimes. In the state of Texas it is considered rape to have sex with a twelve year old and it would also be considered rape to have sex with a fourteen year old before marriage. I have changed the wording in the paragraph to reflect this. 74.192.163.33 ( talk) 18:49, 24 November 2010 (UTC)Syd15
Sounds like deliberate trolling to me. The article is a mess and in no way gives an unbiased outline of David Koresh. The articles is a shame of an encyclopedic entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasonmchristos ( talk • contribs) 13:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I would like to call attention to the following quote in the article. "Despite his dyslexia, by the age of 11, Koresh had memorized the entire New Testament."
This is very probably not true. I joined David Koresh and his movement in 1984 and was involved for 5 years. During that entire time he never once demonstrated any memorization of the New Testament. When he needed to refer to a particular text, he had to look it up just like anybody else in the group.
The very likely source of this story is Koresh's mother, Bonnie and she probably came to believe this because of Koresh himself. Koresh had a very definite "showoff" component to his personality and it is not hard to understand why an 11 year old boy, who was feeling picked on and humiliated would want to impress people with something. I suspect that he demonstrated to his mother around this time that he had memorized some portion of the bible and this tale grew in the telling.
Whatever the source of the story, based on my personal experience it is almost certainly false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbunds ( talk • contribs) 14:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it's all that far-fetched. While it perhaps sounds impressive to Westerners, in the Muslim world the memorization of the ENTIRE Qur'an is a popular aspiration, and there are yearly competitions for boys of middle school age, see: Hafiz (Quran), though it says the current number of such people is in the tens of millions, it doesn't appear to cite the source. But it's a common enough thing, and the Qur'an is even longer than the New Testament, and those memorizing it are frequently completely unable to converse in any dialect of Arabic, let alone the Classical 6th Century prose of the Qur'an. So if millions of children can memorize a holy book and recite it in an unfamiliar tongue, I don't think there's any real reason to assume that Koresh MUST have been lying. In addition, the infamous fundamentalist Baptist pastor Steve Anderson has memorized much of the Old and New Testaments, despite not having had a day's enrollment in seminary or any other post-secondary school. PenitentWhaler ( talk) 02:03, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I didn't say it was far-fetched. Of course people can memorize anything if they put into the effort. The point I want to make is, I WAS THERE. I sat and listened to Koresh for literally thousands of hours and not one single time did he demonstrate any New Testament memorization. This EYEWITNESS testimony makes it unlikely that he actually had memorized the New Testament. Not impossible mind you, just unlikely. Dbunds ( talk) 14:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
It's alleged that David Koresh called 911 after they've been shot at by the ATF? Does anyone know more. -- 41.151.71.56 ( talk) 11:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
I believe there was more than one 911 call made from the compound during the initial firefight, and one of them was from Koresh. At any rate, from what I recall the 911 operator rather immediately put him through to someone who was a deputy sherriff (according to Frontline). I believe this is the same phone call where a cease fire was negotiated and the ATF asked to pick up their wounded without being fired upon. There is a 1995 "Frontline" Report/Reprospective on Waco on youtube. It has audio of the phone call. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.194.193.129 ( talk) 06:46, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The 2nd paragraph of the "Early Life" section says "Koresh described his early childhood as lonely, and it has been alleged that he was once gang raped by older boys when he was 8", but these claims are never made in the source that is cited as evidence. The citation given is for the 2nd entry on the reference list, a video called "Final 24 Episode on David Koresh". This episode of the "Final 24" series, widely available for free viewing online, never mentions or implies that Koresh might have been raped or otherwise abused sexually at any point in his life, nor does it say that Koresh described his early childhood as lonely. Another comment writer said that this page had been vandalized at some point; maybe this gang rape claim is a plausible-enough-sounding remnant of that vandalism accidentally left up. It is also possible that the author just cited the wrong source, but after searching online I was unable to find any corroborating evidence for the gang rape claim that did not reference this Wikipedia page, or the same Final 24 episode. If I knew how to use those "not in citation" markers (or whatever they're called), I would've done so, but I'm reluctant to just remove the entire sentence on suspicion that its false/vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.252.49 ( talk) 05:44, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment of the source; I haven't read any of Wilson's books, but this book, "Devil's Party", was self-published and, according to reviews online, contains no footnotes or citations at all to substantiate any of his claims. Colin Wilson writes mainly on so-called "paranormal" topics (e.g. Atlantis, mysticism, psychics, alien contactees), and has been criticized (in Amazon reviews) for unscrupulously accepting supernatural claims as fact. Even if this book does in fact contain the claims that Koresh was "gang raped at age 8" or that he described his early childhood as "lonely", these could have been invented whole cloth by the author and without citations we have no way of verifying them. A small section of the book is available for viewing on Amazon, and I can verify that this sample section contains no footnotes or citations, and that the section on Koresh that I was able to read contained unsubstantiated conjecture interspersed with obvious facts and sweeping generalizations (e.g. "most people were impatient with the 'softly, softly' tactics of the authorities, and looked forward to the day when Koresh would be standing in court and sentenced to a long term of imprisonment"). Given the seemingly unreliable nature of this source, and the fact that "Devil's Party" seems to be the only source for this claim, I think removing the "gang rape" claim would be reasonable. The only place - other than Wikipedia - where I've seen this claim repeated is in articles that reference this Wikipedia page as the source of the claim, and in my research, Wilson seems to be the only person to have "discovered" this event from Koresh's early life. I don't want to edit the article without approval, so I'll wait for a response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belecassatt ( talk • contribs) 07:54, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
A large part of the article seems to be based on this book, without any supporting references... is it a reliable source? More references are needed to back up the claims made, especially since the book isn't an academic source. Zambelo; talk 22:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
It would be helpful to me to know more about Koresh' genealogy - ie. more than just who his parents were. I myself am quite severely mentally ill, and while not a cult leader, take quite an interest in studying cult phenomena. There is quite a good chance that he and I are blood relatives, as my father's side of the family are all Seventh Day Adventists, and my great aunt is from waco.
My father did quite a lot of genealogical research. Were I to start with my father's work, and were someone - I will do it if no one else has - to dig up Koresh' genealogy, I would like to see whether our lineages intersect, and if so, where.
How is he considered a terroist when he wasn't the aggressive. What about government sponsored terroism? -- 166.170.57.194 ( talk) 02:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC)-
All right. Now that we're both here, let's hope that this discussion doesn't escalate. Government-sponsored terrorism probably isn't applicable either because it isn't something like, say, Lockerbie, where the Libyan government actively abetted it (indeed, it made everything happen). This would probably be more in line with a grand fuck-up (pardon my French) by the government. You can consider him as not a terrorist (indeed, I'm leaning towards your position) but I'd rather wait for more consensus on this. Dschslava ( talk) 02:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Pinging @ 166.170.57.194: Dschslava ( talk) 02:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
""(Not sure why people think only non-Christians can be terrorists.)"", Which leads me to believe he's only doing it for political purposes. Also considering he was the one who originally added Christian terrorism to the page as well as the waco page. I would like to hear why he fells like misusing the articles to attack Christians.-- Fruitloop11 ( talk) 07:47, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph:
The age in consent in Texas was 17 at the time, as per a contemporary The New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all Samboy ( talk) 12:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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This section is incorrect at some points:
First of all my source? Myself. My name is David Bunds. I was raised a Branch Davidian and was a member of his group for 5 years.
1. Vernon Howell discovered the Branch Davidians as a result of a personal crisis he was going through regarding his ex-girlfriend Sandy Berlin. She was the daughter of the Pastor of the SDA church he was attending in Tyler, Texas at the time. He showed up at Mount Carmel Center in July, 1981. My wife, who was 12 at the time, was there with Rachel Jones and they together were called by Perry Jones to come and meet Vernon. He was 21 at the time, not 22. The 15 year old girl that he had gotten pregnant was Linda and that time he would have been when he was a bit younger, perhaps 20. He had not joined the Adventist church yet when he was involved with Linda.
2. "His band played a few times at clubs in Waco." This is incorrect. At this time, prior to his starting his prophetic ministry, Vernon did not have a band and never played in Waco. This was a few years later, after he had taken over Mount Carmel in 1988.
3. "Koresh also tried pursuing his own record company". Incorrect. At this time in his life he was focused on becoming a prophet in the Branch Davidian movement and was not interested in starting a record company. I am not aware of his ever wanting to do this, but if he did pursue such a thing, it would have been much later, around 1987 I would say, when he had the semi-hit song, "Mad Man Living In Waco." He did have a production company called Cyrus Productions, but I would not call it a record company. I really was not much of anything and never went anywhere. Dbunds ( talk) 15:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
@ 78.26: The article David Koresh has just been heavily attacked by a vandal, can you undo the vandalism. Catfurball ( talk) 18:33, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Raped. He raped a girl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.152.151.194 ( talk) 03:41, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Myself and my half brothers and half sister are linked via the courts recognition as rightful heirs and reiterated by my grandmother (Bonnie) who was at first hesitant to expose his “house of David” (Cyrus, sky, and myself were the only ones to endure persistent and excessive physical punishment at his hand where he made me so fearful of him I would try and laugh and clap while shaking and crying which upset his egos paradigm wherein the love he deserved and adoration was marked by his making his time and attention a currency of sorts. We were supposed to adore him). While he insisted our mothers leave the father entry blank on our birth certificates, I couldn’t look more like him and I have dna tests. My brother has participated in the programs for narrative reinforcement to make their absolute failure to materialize even a semblance of competence somehow my both evil and insane fathers fault entirely, in spite of the truth being so simple: Rodrigues informed them the element of surprise was lost and yet they contradict themselves so emphatically with contentions that aren’t the least bit rational and failed to follow protocol. Even if Rodrigues had claimed they appeared fearful and were praying in disorganized apprehensive catatonia or whatever it was they twisted his meaning by, the simple reality is that they never did any real work to truly advance the specificity this operation required for the safety of innocents. Somehow the victimization of the dead has been their go to condemnation. How dare they have the incompetence to “lose” the front door, to lose footage that would settle the initial questions… while my anecdotes and bias might seem to be predictable, I don’t think the ATF did right by their mens safety and the way their head lies through his teeth to my brother on a tv special. It is simple, my father answered the door unarmed and with gestures and and a cadence that when recalled by a witness was without an excessive uncharacteristic credulity required compared to that of the man who served the botched warrant. Be honest: they lied and behaved as if this were a simple drug running arms operation, and their best strategy was to try and behave as much like the Babylon my father had predicted they would. They almost did everything in their power to seal everyone’s fate. I don’t need to identify the flaws and duties of those who perished, but those who had to carry out these acts and were haunted by the moral absence and playing dumb… sorry for the tangential droning. I’m currently planning on collecting my mothers stories who is one of the only people to have an account of my father long before the highly guarded and… I’ll rework this later and provide a more ordered and concise, opinion free, source based draft 76.174.199.217 ( talk) 05:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Is that something he had previously indicated he wanted (equalling Jesus Christ)? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:753A:39BE:71D8:D020 ( talk) 16:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)