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In addition to my notation regarding the quality of the scanned info, it most definitely needs to have the citations properly formatted. As it stands now, the citation numbers appear directly in the text instaed of using proper wikiformatting. Also, that whole piece needs to have wikilinks added. - CobaltBlueTony 20:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've brought a new article. It is still on the long side, but that I suppose can be fixed later. There are numerous subarticles too. I've kept some of SlowwwwMoses article, where those bits were in wiki tone, but it's virtually all new. Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 06:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I enjoyed this article, especially because I didn't know much about Scottish history of this time, despite having studied this period of English history at university. I don't know if there has been new research (I haven't read Oram), but I always understood that Matilda, despite having possession of the crown, was never actually crowned, and so "David travelled to the south of England and entered Matilda's company; he was present during her coronation at Westminster Abbey" made me raise an eyebrow. I thought Matilda had fallen out with various people in London and had disregarded her advisors (including David?) and so ended up being recognised only as "Lady of the English" before being hustled out of town by Stephen's Matilda. I didn't think she was crowned at Winchester either. qp10qp 20:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Should the infobox at the foot of the Article not include the Bishops of Nidaros, although these were created toward the end of David's reign, the Bishops of Orkney and those of Sodor were there, submitting to either York or Trondheim. Brendandh 09:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added the saints banner to this article on the basis of the subject being named in the List of royal saints and martyrs. I cannot myself right now provide documentation of this claim, but shall try to do so over the weekend. John Carter 00:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
What kind of date notation is "Born 1083 x 1085"? That makes positively no sense at all. If his birth cannot be pinpointed accurately, there are two options: '1083-1085' or, preferably, "Circa 1084". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.235.10.210 ( talk) 11:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I don’t have a strong opinion on the date format. On the one hand, I believe that ‘’circa’’ works sufficiently in most instances and is more easily understood by the average reader. On the other hand, I am hesitant to change notation to one that is less precise and thus perhaps not strictly accurate. My instinct on this is to leave it in the form with which it passed WP:FAC, barring a consensus to change. Kafka Liz ( talk) 17:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
From the Style recommendations: "Do not use ibid., op. cit. or similar abbreviations in footnotes." There are a lot of references that use idem. These should be changed. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 14:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Was his wife named Matilda or Maud (or both in different contexts)? The link says "Matilda", but it leads to an article named Maud, 2nd Countess of Huntingdon. Can anyone clarify? -- Mais oui! 13:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps someone would like to show me the exact CONSENSUS where it is permitted to completly ignore WP:UE on this article - and related articles (like a user is claiming). And also how it is acceptable to differ how we refer to people throughout the article - as exists here now - and why it is acceptable to break links and create redirects on a page. And how it is best to have one name for the article - then a Gaelic name during the article. -- UpDown ( talk) 14:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I have come here from the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English)#Gaelic names. Not only is WP:UE relevant so is WP:MOS#Foreign terms both of which are guidelines, however there is also Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use English words which is policy and as Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines says "Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature." Also please note what WP:CONSENSUS says "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale." In cases like this one needs to look at Wikipedia policies and the guidelines and they all harmonise along the lines of use whatever is the consensus among reliable English language sources. This is not a radical suggestion or one based on cherry picking sentences out of the guidelines, but the one that is made by all three major content policies ( WP:V WP:OR and WP:NPOV) and the naming conventions. -- PBS ( talk) 19:32, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
We are written for lay readers, not for specialists; that's not fundamentalism, that's principle. We should use the names intelligible to the common reader, because he will understand them. Discussion? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
There are a lot of sources that are fairly recently published books that should have ISBNs, but none of the sources include them. Is there a reason for this? — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 15:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Appears to be a neologism, so I put the "dubious tag" in. If there is complete solid evidence for that title, then my faut pas. I haven't come across that title in my readings. PurpleA ( talk) 13:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm seeking comments, as to how we should show Malcolm III of Scotland & Malcolm IV of Scotland within this article's content & infobox. GoodDay ( talk) 04:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
If it were up to me, the content would be showing the english version, aswell. However, I can accept [Malcolm III of Scotland|Malcolm III] (gaelic name) & [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm IV] (gaelic name) in the infobox. [Malcolm III of Scotland|Malcolm (gaelic name) III] & [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm (gaelic name) IV] in the navigation boxes. GoodDay ( talk) 17:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Why do yas want it as [Máel Coluim IV] (Malcolm IV), instead of [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm IV] (Máel Coluim IV)? for example. GoodDay ( talk) 01:35, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment I agree with Jeanne boleyn that the content should match the infobox; inconsistency will be confusing to uninitated readers. But it's also inexplicably inconsistent to use only Gaelic regnal titles on some articles and English on others. In that light, I support GoodDay's compromise of having the Gaelic translations shown in brackets, following the English versions. This could be done both in the infobox and the article body itself. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:00, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Well? are we gonna adopt the [article title|english version] (gaelic verson) as our solution? GoodDay ( talk) 10:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Ignoring the editor's statement above. If Wikipedia wants to be regarded as a creditable encyclopedia then it should look to follow modern practice among historians who use the medieval Gaelic for the names of kings as they were known in their own day. I'm sure that those who come to the project to be educated would welcome this approach, rather than the maintenance of over-simplification and a general dumbing down. However I also agree with Finn's compromise.-- Bill Reid | ( talk) 14:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
I think it's great the Gaelic names are used here, but it can be a little confusing to those not entirely familiar with the subject. For example, using David throughout but not Malcolm even in sentences giving English translations of Gaelic text. If real names are being used then most of the English ones should actually be in French, not William and John and Stephen etc. I don't think any King of England even spoke English until Richard III. It's important to use historical names and not English versions, but there should be some consistency within and between articles on Wiki with how it's done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.72.120 ( talk) 21:42, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm a bit surprised to see that David's principality - which by the same token must have become his kingdom when he became a king - stop at the current southern border of Scotland. We know from some of the northumbrian charter chests that at least some people in Northumbria were holding their lands of Scottish monarcsh and expressing fealty to them as monarchs for some generations to come.
David's territory (which had been actively ruled by his grandfather, who spent quite a lot of time there) also included at least a large swathe of what is now Cumberland and Westmoreland. He was born in Carlisle in, as this article should have it for the sake of consistency, "England".
Galloway was a somewhat different shape at the time, the western part of the present region, and continuing further north along the coast. But it appears to be shown on the article's map as the current county. The bottom left of the map just cuts off what was the southern part of David's realm. It included much of what is now Cumberland and Westmoreland, as well as much of current Northumberland. ie, west of the pennines as well as east.
The assumption that this area to the north & west Pennines area was "England" at this time is belied by the evidence that it was still not under the English state's control for landolding or taxes in the mid 1100s, with attempts to settle it under Norman overlords like the Meschines repeatedly failing. Fudging this by literally cutting it off the map isn't acceptable.
It is a sad characteristic of a lot of wiki articles on the British Isles in medieval times that the present borders of England are almost always anachronistically impressed upon the past, where Wales & Scotland are concerned. It would be nice to see something less partisan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.164.240 ( talk) 19:34, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
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This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In addition to my notation regarding the quality of the scanned info, it most definitely needs to have the citations properly formatted. As it stands now, the citation numbers appear directly in the text instaed of using proper wikiformatting. Also, that whole piece needs to have wikilinks added. - CobaltBlueTony 20:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've brought a new article. It is still on the long side, but that I suppose can be fixed later. There are numerous subarticles too. I've kept some of SlowwwwMoses article, where those bits were in wiki tone, but it's virtually all new. Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 06:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I enjoyed this article, especially because I didn't know much about Scottish history of this time, despite having studied this period of English history at university. I don't know if there has been new research (I haven't read Oram), but I always understood that Matilda, despite having possession of the crown, was never actually crowned, and so "David travelled to the south of England and entered Matilda's company; he was present during her coronation at Westminster Abbey" made me raise an eyebrow. I thought Matilda had fallen out with various people in London and had disregarded her advisors (including David?) and so ended up being recognised only as "Lady of the English" before being hustled out of town by Stephen's Matilda. I didn't think she was crowned at Winchester either. qp10qp 20:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Should the infobox at the foot of the Article not include the Bishops of Nidaros, although these were created toward the end of David's reign, the Bishops of Orkney and those of Sodor were there, submitting to either York or Trondheim. Brendandh 09:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added the saints banner to this article on the basis of the subject being named in the List of royal saints and martyrs. I cannot myself right now provide documentation of this claim, but shall try to do so over the weekend. John Carter 00:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
What kind of date notation is "Born 1083 x 1085"? That makes positively no sense at all. If his birth cannot be pinpointed accurately, there are two options: '1083-1085' or, preferably, "Circa 1084". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.235.10.210 ( talk) 11:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I don’t have a strong opinion on the date format. On the one hand, I believe that ‘’circa’’ works sufficiently in most instances and is more easily understood by the average reader. On the other hand, I am hesitant to change notation to one that is less precise and thus perhaps not strictly accurate. My instinct on this is to leave it in the form with which it passed WP:FAC, barring a consensus to change. Kafka Liz ( talk) 17:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
From the Style recommendations: "Do not use ibid., op. cit. or similar abbreviations in footnotes." There are a lot of references that use idem. These should be changed. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 14:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Was his wife named Matilda or Maud (or both in different contexts)? The link says "Matilda", but it leads to an article named Maud, 2nd Countess of Huntingdon. Can anyone clarify? -- Mais oui! 13:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps someone would like to show me the exact CONSENSUS where it is permitted to completly ignore WP:UE on this article - and related articles (like a user is claiming). And also how it is acceptable to differ how we refer to people throughout the article - as exists here now - and why it is acceptable to break links and create redirects on a page. And how it is best to have one name for the article - then a Gaelic name during the article. -- UpDown ( talk) 14:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I have come here from the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English)#Gaelic names. Not only is WP:UE relevant so is WP:MOS#Foreign terms both of which are guidelines, however there is also Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use English words which is policy and as Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines says "Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature." Also please note what WP:CONSENSUS says "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale." In cases like this one needs to look at Wikipedia policies and the guidelines and they all harmonise along the lines of use whatever is the consensus among reliable English language sources. This is not a radical suggestion or one based on cherry picking sentences out of the guidelines, but the one that is made by all three major content policies ( WP:V WP:OR and WP:NPOV) and the naming conventions. -- PBS ( talk) 19:32, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
We are written for lay readers, not for specialists; that's not fundamentalism, that's principle. We should use the names intelligible to the common reader, because he will understand them. Discussion? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
There are a lot of sources that are fairly recently published books that should have ISBNs, but none of the sources include them. Is there a reason for this? — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 15:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Appears to be a neologism, so I put the "dubious tag" in. If there is complete solid evidence for that title, then my faut pas. I haven't come across that title in my readings. PurpleA ( talk) 13:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm seeking comments, as to how we should show Malcolm III of Scotland & Malcolm IV of Scotland within this article's content & infobox. GoodDay ( talk) 04:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
If it were up to me, the content would be showing the english version, aswell. However, I can accept [Malcolm III of Scotland|Malcolm III] (gaelic name) & [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm IV] (gaelic name) in the infobox. [Malcolm III of Scotland|Malcolm (gaelic name) III] & [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm (gaelic name) IV] in the navigation boxes. GoodDay ( talk) 17:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Why do yas want it as [Máel Coluim IV] (Malcolm IV), instead of [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm IV] (Máel Coluim IV)? for example. GoodDay ( talk) 01:35, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment I agree with Jeanne boleyn that the content should match the infobox; inconsistency will be confusing to uninitated readers. But it's also inexplicably inconsistent to use only Gaelic regnal titles on some articles and English on others. In that light, I support GoodDay's compromise of having the Gaelic translations shown in brackets, following the English versions. This could be done both in the infobox and the article body itself. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:00, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Well? are we gonna adopt the [article title|english version] (gaelic verson) as our solution? GoodDay ( talk) 10:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Ignoring the editor's statement above. If Wikipedia wants to be regarded as a creditable encyclopedia then it should look to follow modern practice among historians who use the medieval Gaelic for the names of kings as they were known in their own day. I'm sure that those who come to the project to be educated would welcome this approach, rather than the maintenance of over-simplification and a general dumbing down. However I also agree with Finn's compromise.-- Bill Reid | ( talk) 14:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
I think it's great the Gaelic names are used here, but it can be a little confusing to those not entirely familiar with the subject. For example, using David throughout but not Malcolm even in sentences giving English translations of Gaelic text. If real names are being used then most of the English ones should actually be in French, not William and John and Stephen etc. I don't think any King of England even spoke English until Richard III. It's important to use historical names and not English versions, but there should be some consistency within and between articles on Wiki with how it's done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.72.120 ( talk) 21:42, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm a bit surprised to see that David's principality - which by the same token must have become his kingdom when he became a king - stop at the current southern border of Scotland. We know from some of the northumbrian charter chests that at least some people in Northumbria were holding their lands of Scottish monarcsh and expressing fealty to them as monarchs for some generations to come.
David's territory (which had been actively ruled by his grandfather, who spent quite a lot of time there) also included at least a large swathe of what is now Cumberland and Westmoreland. He was born in Carlisle in, as this article should have it for the sake of consistency, "England".
Galloway was a somewhat different shape at the time, the western part of the present region, and continuing further north along the coast. But it appears to be shown on the article's map as the current county. The bottom left of the map just cuts off what was the southern part of David's realm. It included much of what is now Cumberland and Westmoreland, as well as much of current Northumberland. ie, west of the pennines as well as east.
The assumption that this area to the north & west Pennines area was "England" at this time is belied by the evidence that it was still not under the English state's control for landolding or taxes in the mid 1100s, with attempts to settle it under Norman overlords like the Meschines repeatedly failing. Fudging this by literally cutting it off the map isn't acceptable.
It is a sad characteristic of a lot of wiki articles on the British Isles in medieval times that the present borders of England are almost always anachronistically impressed upon the past, where Wales & Scotland are concerned. It would be nice to see something less partisan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.164.240 ( talk) 19:34, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:19, 2 July 2016 (UTC)